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Scuba Forum / General / January 2006Two scuba related questions (now that's weird)
Question 1, Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? I see they are becoming less common and harder to find. I have never used one, but thought the basic idea seemed sound. What's your opinion? Question 2, I have a Viking vulcanised rubber drysuit. It has the latex neck seal and also a latex hood. I pull the neck seal down over my head, then don a Henderson 7/5 gold core drysuit style neoprene hood, then I pull the latex Viking hood over top of the Henderson. Most folks say "Don't bother with the outer latex hood, just leave it down, or cut it off". I used to wear the latex hood under the Henderson 7/5. Which is correct, or doesn't it really matter? I seem to sense that my head stays a bit warmer with the latex hood as the outermost layer. In that mode there seems to be less water exchange around the base of my neck, and the water that is within the Henderson hood directly against my skin warms up and stays warm. Thanks for your input. I am only certified A.O.W. and still learning. Been at this only 1 1/2 years so I admit I know very little. > Question 1, > > Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? No. Gently push the top of your mask with a single finger (pick one) and exhale as gently as you like through your nose. > I see they are becoming less common and harder to find. I have never > used one, but thought the basic idea seemed sound. What's your opinion? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > water exchange around the base of my neck, and the water that is within > the Henderson hood directly against my skin warms up and stays warm. Whatever blows your dress up. > Thanks for your input. I am only certified A.O.W. and still learning. > Been at this only 1 1/2 years so I admit I know very little. > Question 1, > Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? Advantage is subjective. They are an advantage to those that have not learned to clear their masks easily without one. Generally speaking, that means the inexperienced. Also generally speaking, they are a disadvantage in three ways. 1. The traditional purge valve is mounted in soft material just under the nose. Pinching the nose when equalizing stresses the soft material around the hard purge valve, risking premature failure at this point. Purge valves mounted in the lens don't have this problem. 2. Purge valves seem to be a sand and seaweed magnet. They are easily and frequently prevented from sealing completely by foreign objects stuck in the valve. They tend to leak. 3. Purge valves also tend to slow, or stop, the process of learning how to clear a mask without one as well as masking nose breathing during a dive. Lee >> Question 1, >> Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? > >Advantage is subjective. They are an advantage to those that have not >learned to clear their masks easily without one. Generally speaking, that >means the inexperienced. ... Not to put to fine a point on it, Lee, but I don't consider myself "inexperienced". I learned SCUBA diving with a non-purge mask, and I am competent and able to dive without a purge valve. The purge valve makes purging easier -- when you learn to use it correctly. I find this valuable, possibly because I have a full beard and moustache, which means I often need to purge frequently. Doing so "hands free" is a plus to me.  SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > I am competent and able to dive without a purge valve. The purge > valve makes purging easier -- when you learn to use it correctly. > I find this valuable, possibly because I have a full beard and moustache, > which means I often need to purge frequently. Doing so "hands free" > is a plus to me. Same holds for me. W/o purge valve. I once had to dive a mask, when filming, because some company ponsored the equipment. on the 3rd dive, they mask developped a crack. Matthias >Same holds for me. W/o purge valve. I once had to dive a >mask, when filming, because some company ponsored the >equipment. on the 3rd dive, they mask developped a crack. Anything can fail at any time. Maske, with or without purge valve, do not have a high risk of failure. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>> Question 1, >>> Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >which means I often need to purge frequently. Doing so "hands free" >is a plus to me. Charlie, my opinion is that, in general, if it works for you, use it. I've got a 'stache and have no problems with flooding or clearing. But that's me. I prefer that my students not have a purge valve, at least in the pool. Signaturedillon 666 permissions of the beast >Charlie, my opinion is that, in general, if it works for you, use it. We surely agree on this! >I've got a 'stache and have no problems with flooding or clearing I don't regard it as a "problem", just a fact that must be delt with. Some dives my mask is as dry as I could want; other are different. Some day I _may_ figure out why. >I prefer that my students not have a purge valve, at least in the pool. May I ask why not? I would think one should learn with the type of equipment they will be diving with -- possibly even having the opportunity to try different things. (If I had had the opportunity to try a backplate/wing setup as a student, I woudl have saved lots of money on equipment that I no longer use.) I learned to dive without a purge valve; I still use that technique to clear a mask that has been removed or is nearly fully flooded. However, for the small-but-annoying amounts of water that seep in while diving, I find the purge valve a wonderful thing. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>I prefer that my students not have a purge valve, at least in the pool. > >May I ask why not? I would think one should learn with the type of >equipment they will be diving with -- possibly even having the opportunity >to try different things. I prefer that they learn technique. There's no telling when they might decide to go with a purgeless mask. In open water they can use whatever they want. For pool work, the shop provides everything, including, if desired, mask and fins. The gear gets serviced frequently due to chlorine issues. The class isn't cheap, but there are no extra costs. We even pay for air fills at the lake. We do make them lug their own gear to the water, but that's training. And some of them may want to become DMs, so we make sure they know how to make coffee and fetch donuts. >(If I had had the opportunity to try a backplate/wing setup as a student, >I woudl have saved lots of money on equipment that I no longer use.) I thought when you learned to dive everybody wore beavertails and 60 pounds of lead. >I learned to dive without a purge valve; I still use that technique to >clear a mask that has been removed or is nearly fully flooded. However, >for the small-but-annoying amounts of water that seep in while diving, >I find the purge valve a wonderful thing. I guess I just had a bad experience. Signaturedillon 666 permissions of the beast Charlie Hammond wrote: >Not to put to fine a point on it, Lee, but I don't consider myself >"inexperienced". I learned SCUBA diving with a non-purge mask, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >which means I often need to purge frequently. Doing so "hands free" >is a plus to me. You sure know how to set yourself up. The question is not whether you consider yourself inexperienced, but whether others do. You and I have been diving together and, frankly, while I'm reasonably confortable that you are a safe diver, you do not send the "experienced" message to others. No criticism intended, but your preference for a purge valve mask is, to most that do send the experienced message, another indication of a lack of same. Sorry, but you know the guys I dive with, so perhaps you understand that experience is a comparative thing and that I really don't wish to be unkind. Dillon wrote: > Charlie, my opinion is that, in general, if it works for you, use it. > I've got a 'stache and have no problems with flooding or clearing. But > that's me. That's my opinion too, but that doesn't mean that you, I, whoever, won't be judged by the choices we make. > I prefer that my students not have a purge valve, at least in the pool. I'm not an instructor, but I think I'd strongly encourage my students to use masks without purge valves for the duration of the course. Mask clearing skills are part of what I want them to learn and that's kind of hard to do if your mask has a purge valve. Once the course is over, whatever the certified diver choses is OK by me. Lee >Charlie Hammond wrote: > >>Not to put to fine a point on it, Lee, but I don't consider myself >>"inexperienced". ... .. > ... You and I have been diving together and, frankly, while I'm >reasonably confortable that you are a safe diver, you do not send the >"experienced" message to others. ... Lee, I know you and I've seen the divers you dive with. In that context, I agree with you -- up to this point. > ... no criticism intended, but your preference >for a purge valve mask is, to most that do send the experienced message, >another indication of a lack of same. However, I take exception to this last. I would make the same sort of arguments that I think you might make to the "DIR extremists". There is more than one way to skin a cat; no one way is always the best. The fact is that my experience has led me to some different decisions than the ones to which your experience has led you. Which is not to say that you don't have more experience than I -- you most certainly do. And I certainly reserve the right to change as my own experience continues. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >> ... no criticism intended, but your preference >>for a purge valve mask is, to most that do send the experienced message, >>another indication of a lack of same. > However, I take exception to this last. I would make the same sort of > arguments that I think you might make to the "DIR extremists". There is > more than one way to skin a cat; no one way is always the best. Take a look at who spoke against them and then see if you still feel that way. > The fact is that my experience has led me to some different decisions > than the ones to which your experience has led you. Which is not to > say that you don't have more experience than I -- you most certainly > do. And I certainly reserve the right to change as my own experience > continues. I certainly hope so in both respects. We all make choices that, while not bad, are also not where we wind up when we gain experience and more fully developed skills. You make the best choice you can as you go and chalk those that you later change to experience. Those that have moved through the various options try to share our experiences and reasons with others. Sometimes it helps, sometimes, you just have to learn things for yourself. That's just how life is. One of the biggest problems with purge valve masks, at least the ones mounted in the soft nose piece, is that they tend to cause the soft material to deteriorate faster than would otherwise be the case. That's not to say that they cause immediate failure, they don't. Still, when you've replaced two masks while the other guy is still on his first one, you begin to look for a reason why. Note that this is not a problem with the few purge valve masks that mount the valve in the lens or other hard material rather than in the soft material at the bottom of the nose piece. Lee >One of the biggest problems with purge valve masks, at least the ones >mounted in the soft nose piece, is that they tend to cause the soft material [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >masks that mount the valve in the lens or other hard material rather than in >the soft material at the bottom of the nose piece. Although I have not personally expereienced this (in my gear or any I've seen others using), I acknowledge the possibility. ALL SCUBA gear needs to be inspected/repaired/replaced as necessary. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > Although I have not personally expereienced this (in my gear or any I've > seen others using), I acknowledge the possibility. ALL SCUBA gear needs > to be inspected/repaired/replaced as necessary. The problem is directly related to the difference in materials. The soft nosepiece and the hard casing of the purge valve. Since it's proximate to the point you pinch to equalize, the soft material gets stressed by forced contact with the hard. Lee > Mask clearing > skills are part of what I want them to learn and that's kind of hard to do > if your mask has a purge valve. The techniques I was taught only result in water clearing through the purge while the mask is seriously flooded. If you tilt your head back and exhale when the mask is mostly empty, some of the air should go through the purge valve, but the water won't. If somebody can clear all of the water from their purge mask with their head tilted back or sideways they should have skills that are more than adequate to clear a mask without a purge. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. >> Question 1, >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Gently push the top of your mask with a single finger (pick one) and exhale >as gently as you like through your nose. Opinions differ. I find a mask with a purge valve to be an advantage because I can purge WITHOUT the need to "Gently push the top of your mask..." etc. -- which keeps both my hand free. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>> Question 1, >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > because I can purge WITHOUT the need to "Gently push the top of your mask..." > etc. -- which keeps both my hand free. even more, most dive time is face down. purge works perfectly. >>Gently push the top of your mask with a single finger (pick one) and exhale >>as gently as you like through your nose. > > Opinions differ. I find a mask with a purge valve to be an advantage > because I can purge WITHOUT the need to "Gently push the top of your mask..." > etc. -- which keeps both my hand free. Put index finger along top of mask, thumb along bottom, rotate mask slightly about the midpoint. >> ... I can purge WITHOUT the need to "Gently push the top of your mask..." >> etc. -- which keeps both my hand free. > >Put index finger along top of mask, thumb along bottom, rotate mask >slightly about the midpoint. Ah, I see now -- only my index finger and thumb are needed -- my hand itself is still free. !!! Since I've been know to reply without reading what I'm replying to, I will not fault anyone else for doing the same. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>> ... I can purge WITHOUT the need to "Gently push the top of your mask..." >>>etc. -- which keeps both my hand free. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Since I've been know to reply without reading what I'm replying to, > I will not fault anyone else for doing the same. Yeah, see my other post. I twisted the logic from both to not both. Or something. Still, I will avoid the purge valve solution since purging is not a hard operation. Still looking for a better way to seal a mask over a mustache, though. >>>> ... I can purge WITHOUT the need to "Gently push the top of your >>>> mask..." [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > not a hard operation. Still looking for a better way to seal a mask > over a mustache, though. Silicone caulk. Just don't wait too long before removing your mask Signature"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences." - Proverbs 22:3 > Silicone caulk. If you hadn't offered that advice I would have suggested epoxy. > Just don't wait too long before removing your mask I was just going to tell him it was a technique only for those who diver regularly. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > Yeah, see my other post. I twisted the logic from both to not both. Or > something. Still, I will avoid the purge valve solution since purging is > not a hard operation. Still looking for a better way to seal a mask > over a mustache, though. I never had a problem with this. In the beginning, I thought I was, and smeared the area with creme. Aside to looking funny this beagn to deteriorate the rubber corpus of the mask, which was brought to mind mind by someone asking wether I had dived in a coal mine. All I do now is razor 3mm from my nose down, and never ever experienced any trouble. Except when I began diving closed circuit rebreathers. Then it dawned on me that I was exhaling tiny amounts of gas by the nose w/o being conscient of it, fact which at first boosted my oxygen consumption. It takes some work to accomplish a change of mindset with rebreathers to avoid this. Matthias >...Still looking for a better way to seal a mask over a mustache, though. If its any consolation, you're not alone! SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > Yeah, see my other post. I twisted the logic from both to not both. Or > something. Still, I will avoid the purge valve solution since purging is > not a hard operation. Still looking for a better way to seal a mask > over a mustache, though. ChapStick. >> Yeah, see my other post. I twisted the logic from both to not both. >> Or something. Still, I will avoid the purge valve solution since >> purging is not a hard operation. Still looking for a better way to >> seal a mask over a mustache, though. > > ChapStick. It doesn't make it through a dive. > Opinions differ. I find a mask with a purge valve to be an advantage > because I can purge WITHOUT the need to "Gently push the top of your mask..." > etc. -- which keeps both my hand free. Hmm... I read that wrong. I see you were talking later about hands-free purging. Still, I have the mustache problem as well and I find a simple twist/exhale is very quick and a purge valve does not tempt me. Something to keep the mustache from leaking, on the other hand... > Question 1, > > Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? > > I see they are becoming less common and harder to find. I have never > used one, but thought the basic idea seemed sound. What's your opinion? It's personal preference. I had one for years, and loved it. > Question 2, >I seem to sense that my head stays a bit warmer with the > latex hood as the outermost layer. Hoods suck, but layers are warmth. If it's worth the trouble to you, then there's no reason not to. Myself, I'd cut that thing off in a heartbeat. > Question 1, > > Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? The purge valve allows for clearing the mask without using your hand or hands. This feature is very convenient. > Question 2, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wear the latex hood under the Henderson 7/5. Which is correct, or doesn't > it really matter? It doesn't really matter if they fit but I'm surprised they fit. I use an ice cap with attached hood or detached hood, depending on the drysuit. The ice cap will not fit over either hood. The mask seals to the ice cap while the hood fits over the mask seal. There is almost no water circulating in the ice cap when used with the detached hood. Doffing the gear and examining the outer hood you will find large dry areas. No water circulates between the skin and the ice cap but my hair gets wet. The attached hood has stretched over the years so it allows water to circulate. The main advantage of the attached hood is that is limits the circulation of water. (My dry hood is not vented.) If you swim horizontal and limit turning your head sideways your head will stay dry. Congratulations on scuba related questions. You don't find them much on this newsgroup. > Question 1, > > Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? > > I see they are becoming less common and harder to find. I have never > used one, but thought the basic idea seemed sound. What's your opinion? I don't like them. Get a grain of sand in one, and it's source of annoyance for a dive. > Question 2, I seem to sense that my head stays a bit warmer with the > latex hood as the outermost layer. In that mode there seems to be less > water exchange around the base of my neck, and the water that is within > the Henderson hood directly against my skin warms up and stays warm. I wouldn't use it - you need to have access to your neck seal if you need it to dump gas from the suit if the exhaust valve or inflator fail. If you can work it out so you can get to the seal from the front, then maybe it's ok. >>Question 1, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't like them. Get a grain of sand in one, and it's source of > annoyance for a dive. That's the downside, and if ya do a lot of shore diving it's a nuisance. But I'd still use one if I could find one that fit, and partially flooding the mask and a good snort will usually clean the purge valve. Like popeye said, personal preferance, and very handy when both hands are full. >>>Question 1, >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Like popeye said, personal preferance, and very handy when both hands are > full. My first mask has one, about 250 dives worth, and I loved it. Now, being as ugly as I am, I can scrinch* my face around the upper lip and clear a little water. If I found a new mask I liked, I wouldn't care one way or another about it having a purge, i.e., I wouldn't let that stop me. *technical term >> Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? >I don't like them. Get a grain of sand in one, and it's source of >annoyance for a dive. I've never had this happen in enough dives to convince me that this is a very minimal problem at worst. If it DID happen, it would not annoy me for the rest of the dive -- because I would remove the mask, clear the purge valve, and re-don the mask. OK, OK, OK! Yes, I admit that the purge valve does introduce an added popint of failure in my kit. I just don't see this as off-settin the advatage that I find with a purge valve. Other opinions differ. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>> Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > for the rest of the dive -- because I would remove the mask, clear the > purge valve, and re-don the mask. How do you do that? Sluring the grain? Licking it away? How do you see it even, and how do you tell it is not the frame which is broken. They tend to get cracks from the outer circumference to the valve. > OK, OK, OK! Yes, I admit that the purge valve does introduce an added > popint of failure in my kit. I just don't see this as off-settin the > advatage that I find with a purge valve. Other opinions differ. Hardly. With straps properly set, you don't even need to touch the mask to clear it, simple nosehaling will do. Matthias >> I've never had this happen in enough dives to convince me that this is a >> very minimal problem at worst. If it DID happen, it would not annoy me >> for the rest of the dive -- because I would remove the mask, clear the >> purge valve, and re-don the mask. > >How do you do that? ... Just swish it around in the water. > > ... how do you tell it is not the frame >which is broken. They tend to get cracks from the outer >circumference to the valve. It was specified taht this was a grain of sand problem. *ANY* mask can fail. Depending on condition, carrying a second, backup mask is appropriate. The particulare type of cracks you describe sound like the are specific to a design that maybe shoudl be avoided. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > Are face masks with purge valves an advantage?? Since I've got a moustache, I figured I'll never have a mask that doesn't leak at least a little bit so the last time I was mask shopping I looked at purge masks. A Scubapro trivent XQ fit as well as anything else (purge or not), so that's what I got. The valve isn't in the lens, but it is in a rigid part of the frame, so for this mask you could discount Lee's warning about squezing and early failure. I've had the mask for about 9 years and haven't had any problems with the valve leaking, as near as I can tell. It does leak a bit, but as near as I can tell, that's just because it doesn't make a perfect seal. There are three downsides, though. It's a high volume mask (but offers an excellent field of view), and the design of the valve means the easiest way to pinch your nose is to use both index fingers instead of pinching with the same hand. Finally, the purge valve doesn't always work hands-free. The latter seems to be more a matter of how it fits me than problem with the valve itself. as often as not, if I'm facing down and exhale through my nose most of the air escapes through the skirt between my eyes and ears instead of forcing the water through the valve. If I press that part of the skirt against my head the valve works fine, but having to use both hands to clear the mask defeats the purpose of a purge valve. On the upside, rolling my head to the side lets the water drain to the spot the air likes to leak out, which sort of makes it a valve-less purge. How the XQ or any other purge mask would work for you is probably something you'll only find out by spending time diving with it. When I need a new mask I'll try purge and non-purge masks again, and look for the best fit. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. 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