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Scuba Forum / General / December 2003Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing porcupine fish
Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing porcupine fish http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html sounds like the puffer fish will be left alone as they should have been to start with. making puffer fish blow up is not goog for them. puffers 1 diver 0 :-) > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > :-) goog is a new spelling for good sorry ;-) > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html > > sounds like the puffer fish will be left alone as they should have been to > start with. making puffer fish blow up is not goog for them. > > puffers 1 diver 0 It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for them? This guy obviously was not watching what he was doing. Puffers are one of the few fish that swim slow enough to be caught by hand. He paid a rather significant price for his mistake. Lee >> > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Lee C'mon Leeg! "bad" and "goog" are not antonymous and you damn well know it (or my name isn't "Alan Shepard's tiny penig"!) But seriously, regarding the issue of whether our esteemed and self-inflating underwater citizen felt insulted by the game show jerk who borrowed his stupid "let's play with the puffer fish" act from Manny Puig, the missing finger would indicate injury naturally followed from insult (STOP POINTING YOUR f.cking FINGER IN MY FACE a.shole--I'M NOT YOUR UNDERWATER VOLLEYBALL!). Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault rap--NO? > Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault > rap--NO? I only investigate the financial side of crimes. Assault is a bit out of my area of expertise. It sounds like justifiable pinkie-side to me, but what do I know. Lee >> Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault >> rap--NO? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Lee But is there any legal precedent for justiafiable pinkie-side and if so, would that preclude a civil case to recover damages on behalf of a diving instructor forced into early retirement because he can no longer count past nine? After all, the assault took place in FKNMS waters, it was not a posted "DO NOT PUT YOUR FINGER IN THE MOUTH OF WILD ANIMALS" dive site, and according to Carl Hiaasen's official web site, Billy Causey does not wear underwear . > >> Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault > >> rap--NO? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > WILD ANIMALS" dive site, and according to Carl Hiaasen's official web > site, Billy Causey does not wear underwear . I think the spelling should be Pinkie-cide not pinkie-side. after all, homi-cide is not homi-side. rhys > > But is there any legal precedent for justiafiable pinkie-side and if > > so, would that preclude a civil case to recover damages on behalf of a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think the spelling should be Pinkie-cide not pinkie-side. after all, > homi-cide is not homi-side. well, maybe it's homey-side. You know, having a homey, by your side. >> >> Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault >> >> rap--NO? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >rhys Poetic license leaves ample opportunity to wiggle your linguistic pinkie, however, your reckless juxtaposition of "pinkie-side" and "homi-cide" puts you at risk of being accused of overkill after fingering the wrong consonant. After all, 'cide' (from 'caedere' meaning to slay, to kill) clearly refers to death as in homicide, suicide, fratricide, insecticide, etc. In this case, death did not occur, therefore Inspector Bell's choice of 's' rather than 'c' would seem most appropriate for the mere loss of the diver's pinkie rather than his life. Or the life of his brother by his own hand. 'My fault is past. But O, what form of prayer Can serve my turn? "Forgive me my foul murder"? That cannot be, since I am still possess'd Of those effects for which I did the murder, My crown, mine own ambition, and my queen.' Now that's the stuff that homicide, fratricide and regicide are made of. Professor Not > >> >> Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault > >> >> rap--NO? [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Professor Not It sure killed the poor lil pinkie. and cide in juxaposition to pinkie suggests the cide of a pinkie just as cide in juxaposition to homi suggests the cide of an entire homi. rhys <= can logic-cide with the best. > Poetic license leaves ample opportunity to wiggle your linguistic > pinkie, however, your reckless juxtaposition of "pinkie-side" and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > seem most appropriate for the mere loss of the diver's pinkie rather > than his life. Au contraire. Death of the aforementioned pinkie most assuredly did occur (it was not reattachable), hence the "cide" suffix is correct. Gordon in Austin  SignaturePOPI Classification [ ]General Business Information [x]Motorola Internal Use [ ]Motorola Confidential Proprietary > > Poetic license leaves ample opportunity to wiggle your linguistic > > pinkie, however, your reckless juxtaposition of "pinkie-side" and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Gordon in Austin Chances are -tomy would be the proper term Partial distal fingerectomy? > >> > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html > >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Ample evidence and grounds for conviction on a third-degree assault > rap--NO? Scuba Booby continues to sock puppet. What a wimpy boy he is. > (or my name isn't "Alan Shepard's tiny penig"!) It's not. rhys >> (or my name isn't "Alan Shepard's tiny penig"!) > >It's not. > >rhys No. It's Not. > > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for > them? I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is very stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just because it's a natural thing for them to do doesn't mean it's not a tradeoff. Gordon in Austin SignaturePOPI Classification [ ]General Business Information [x]Motorola Internal Use [ ]Motorola Confidential Proprietary I know this is pointless but why do divers have to be right all the time. The coral was getting damaged but the divers knew better.Feeding sharks Wrasse and just about any other critter that would stand and put on a good display. The padi bunch verses the besc verses the rest of the world. What is wrong with leaving the poor puffer fish alone even if it doesn't cause it any harm it must piss them off a bit. I would like to see the front of a puffer not its tail as it swims away because some macho diver Fxxked with it last week. Next your going to say have sex with children don't hurt them................. cant be bothered with this > cant be bothered with this Good. Then that will probably be the last we will hear from you on this . . . > I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is very > stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just > because it's a natural thing for them to do doesn't mean it's not a > tradeoff. Well, that's certainly an authoritative source. Must be true, then. > > I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is very > > stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just > > because it's a natural thing for them to do doesn't mean it's not a > > tradeoff. > > Well, that's certainly an authoritative source. Must be true, then. Well, do you know for a fact that it doesn't hurt them? I don't know for sure either way, so I will err (if indeed I do err) on the side of caution and defer to leaving the poor buggers alone. The DM's on Cozumel might not be ironclad authorities on the subject, but they certainly spend more time dealing with puffers than I. Gordon in Austin SignaturePOPI Classification [ ]General Business Information [x]Motorola Internal Use [ ]Motorola Confidential Proprietary > > > I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is very > > > stressful for them and significantly reduces their life span. Just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cozumel might not be ironclad authorities on the subject, but they > certainly spend more time dealing with puffers than I. I know more about it than a Cozumel DM. At least I've spent some time in a marine biology classroom and assume, rightfully, I think, that I have far more experience with the subject than somebody that avoids touching them because he is certain that it is harmful. I applaud your choice not to touch, but the issue is not whether you, or I choose to touch, but our judgement of the effects of somebody else touching. Presumption that it's harmful, which is all anybody seems to have as a basis, simply is not sufficient for judging somebody else's actions. You want me to believe that the fish's natural defense system is harmful to it, show me a properly conducted scientific study that measures the degree of harm. I've handled a number of puffers, over a lot of years. I'm gentle, more cradleing them than holding them. They inflate, causing their spines to extend and, when released, deflate and swim away. They rarely swim quickly, before or after capture, strongly suggesting that they are not particularly stressed by the encounter. I'm sure they are at least a little stressed, but that's got to be pretty common for a slow moving fish whose only practical form of defense is to inflate. Lee > > > > I have been told more than once by DM's on Cozumel that puffing is > very [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > more experience with the subject than somebody that avoids touching them > because he is certain that it is harmful. Others in this thread with more credentials than spending some time in a marine biology classroom have also weighed in on the side that causing them to inflate potentially causes them long term harm. And where did I ever say that I am certain that it is harmful? > I applaud your choice not to touch, but the issue is not whether you, or I > choose to touch, but our judgement of the effects of somebody else touching. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > show me a properly conducted scientific study that measures the degree of > harm. I don't necessarily want you to believe anything, but if your attitude is you'll do what you want unless it's proven by some study that it's harmful (although some data presented in other posts in this thread suggest to me that it is, or at least could be), then go ahead on; I''m not stopping you. However, just because something is a natural defense does not mean that there is not a penalty to pay for using it. > I've handled a number of puffers, over a lot of years. I'm gentle, more > cradleing them than holding them. They inflate, causing their spines to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but that's got to be pretty common for a slow moving fish whose only > practical form of defense is to inflate. I've handled them, too, many times, just not so aggressively that they panic and inflate. I've been told that it's not good for them, and I don't need a scientific study to figure out that getting my jollies by watching them inflate is not worth chancing it. Show me a properly conducted scientific study that proves that it is safe for them, and I'll do it, too. Gordon in Austin -- > Others in this thread with more credentials than spending some time in a > marine biology classroom have also weighed in on the side that causing > them to inflate potentially causes them long term harm. And where did I > ever say that I am certain that it is harmful? There have been out of context posts from people with the right credentials that supported both sides. You seem to have managed to read only one side. Regardless, the issue was Cozumel DM's, not everybody that has ever had an opinion on the subject. > I don't necessarily want you to believe anything, but if your attitude > is you'll do what you want unless it's proven by some study that it's > harmful (although some data presented in other posts in this thread > suggest to me that it is, or at least could be), then go ahead on; I''m > not stopping you. However, just because something is a natural defense > does not mean that there is not a penalty to pay for using it. If your attitude is that my attitude is I'll do everything until somebody proves it's harmful, then you need to reassess your attitude. Glad to hear you're not stopping me. You might find that an uncomfortable thing to try. There's a penalty to pay for everything. It's a matter of degree, not of existance. > I've handled them, too, many times, just not so aggressively that they > panic and inflate. You're either talking about a different kind of puffer, or you're not telling the truth. The spiny puffer we have here inflates just because he has been constrained. That's his one and only defense and he uses it readily. > I've been told that it's not good for them, and I > don't need a scientific study to figure out that getting my jollies by > watching them inflate is not worth chancing it. Show me a properly > conducted scientific study that proves that it is safe for them, and > I'll do it, too. Diving is harmful to ocean life. Your presence stresses them. The agriculture the produces your food is harmful to ocean life. No matter what, some pollutants reach the ocean. The simple process of expelling body wastes is harmful to oceanlife. No matter what, some pollutants reach the ocean. Are you going to stop diving, eating or pooping? Lee > > Others in this thread with more credentials than spending some time in a > > marine biology classroom have also weighed in on the side that causing [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Lee Hmm... somewhere in the google archives for this group is a post I made with a link to an aussie aquarium site that has a properly peer reviewed scientific study that says inflating does them no harm. and somewhere in the UK.rec.scuba google archives is the same link posted by someone else, thats where I stole the link from. rhys > Hmm... somewhere in the google archives for this group is a post I made with > a link to an aussie aquarium site that has a properly peer reviewed > scientific study that says inflating does them no harm. and somewhere in the > UK.rec.scuba google archives is the same link posted by someone else, thats > where I stole the link from. I have received an email reply from my marine biologist source. He says he will locate the study to which he referred and get back to me. Which I appreciate, however, I'm also aware, that he doesn't know me from Adam and is not actively engaged in this convo. Therefore, it will be quite a surprise to me if he actually ends up providing the study. :^) That said, I remain hopeful. Oh, and Lee. Since everything is stressful on the ocean anyway, I guess we shouldn't worry about kicking coral? > Oh, and Lee. Since everything is stressful on the ocean anyway, I guess we > shouldn't worry about kicking coral? In your personal relationships, do you equate holding hands with being kicked in the head? Lee > > Oh, and Lee. Since everything is stressful on the ocean anyway, I guess > we > > shouldn't worry about kicking coral? > > In your personal relationships, do you equate holding hands with being > kicked in the head? With any luck at all . . .what with one thing and another . . maybe he'll just try and thrust his pelvis against me and I shouldn't think twice about it . . sh.t happens > I have received an email reply from my marine biologist source. He says he > will locate the study to which he referred and get back to me. <snip> Ever see the episode of "Seinfeld" where George lies to a woman by telling her that he's a marine biologist so that he can get a date with her ?? <grin> > > I have received an email reply from my marine biologist source. He says he > > will locate the study to which he referred and get back to me. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > telling her that he's a marine biologist so that he can get a date > with her ?? <grin> "I was in the pool, I was just in the pool!" > Hmm... somewhere in the google archives for this group is a post I made with > a link to an aussie aquarium site that has a properly peer reviewed > scientific study that says inflating does them no harm. and somewhere in the > UK.rec.scuba google archives is the same link posted by someone else, thats > where I stole the link from. I think I saw your link and followed it. I don't recall a description of any study on the subject, but I could be wrong. What I recall is rather well worded discussion of sombody's opinion. As I mentioned, somebody else posted an equally well worded opinion that directly conflicted with the one you found. Like I said, there have been qualified opinions on both sides. Lee > > Hmm... somewhere in the google archives for this group is a post I made > with [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee info from this: Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal of Morphology 220: 243-261 > Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of > Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal of > Morphology 220: 243-261 I just don't care . . if my guy can't go out of his way to supply us with his study that he expresses on his own website . . well, I guess now he'll just have to support his positions from here on in . . and if he can't he's going to look a bit like an a.shole with a big website . . regardless . . .in the end . . .teasing pufferfish it is just flat a bad selfish thing to do . . . shame . . shame . .shame . . . > regardless . . .in the end . . .teasing pufferfish it is just flat a bad > selfish thing to do . . . What about kissing turtles? > > regardless . . .in the end . . .teasing pufferfish it is just flat a bad > > selfish thing to do . . . > > What about kissing turtles? I told you. I wasn't trying to kiss them, they were trying to kiss me. :^) >> regardless . . .in the end . . .teasing pufferfish it is just flat a bad >> selfish thing to do . . . > > What about kissing turtles? Betchya somewhere is a peer reviewed study about the effects of the frustration when ya don't follow up. <snipping> > You're either talking about a different kind of puffer, or you're not > telling the truth. The spiny puffer we have here inflates just because he > has been constrained. That's his one and only defense and he uses it > readily. Lee, did you see my other reply to you in this thread ?? I agree with you on everything that you've said but on my trip to the Sea of Cortez 2 months ago, I met up with just such a puffer. His appearance was no different from the other puffers in that area or from those in Fla... with one exception and that is that he was quite large. I don't think my approach and subsequent handling of him was any different but he just wouldn't puff. He allowed me to cradle him and he didn't try to swim away at that fast. I got the very strong feeling that he simply wasn't afraid of me at all and that if I got my fingers too close to his mouth, he would bite. Either that or he liked me. <grin> > > I've handled them, too, many times, just not so aggressively that they > > panic and inflate. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > has been constrained. That's his one and only defense and he uses it > readily. We are obviously just going to have to agree to disagree on this. The DM's on Cozumel told me this, but they aren't the only ones who have, and I have read all the articles in this thread on this on both sides of this issue, and in my judgement no one knows for sure either way. The puffers I am speaking of are the spiny ones about 6-12 inches long with a face like E.T. that hang out behind the hotel where I stay on Cozumel. I have handled them many times, where I go up to them with a light and slip my hand under them. I bring them up near the surface so that the folks that I snorkel with who aren't as at home in the water as I can get a look at them. I have done this many times, and never has one inflated when I did this. I have no idea as to what puffers you have where you are, because I have no idea where you are. Do what you want; I don't care. But put your testosterone away, please; I have plenty. ;^) Gordon in Austin > Diving is harmful to ocean life. Your presence stresses them. > The agriculture the produces your food is harmful to ocean life. No matter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Are you going to stop diving, eating or pooping? No, Lee, we're not going to stop doing anything. What we ARE gonna do is refrain from doing something that's not necessary to enjoy being an integral part of the world around us. Just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we HAVE to do something. I've sent more than one diver to the surface because they couldn't keep their hands to themselves, which is a prerequisite for diving with me. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273 "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > doesn't mean we HAVE to do something. I've sent more than one diver to > the surface because they couldn't keep their hands to themselves, which > is a prerequisite for diving with me. In what capacity are you sending divers to the surface? Heh -- sending divers to the surface for touching stuff -- there is no way you would be sending me to the surface for any reason. Kimber >>doesn't mean we HAVE to do something. I've sent more than one diver to >>the surface because they couldn't keep their hands to themselves, which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Kimber My boat, my rules - otherwise you're a passenger for the remainder of the day, and you're looking for another boat tomorrow. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273 "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > My boat, my rules - otherwise you're a passenger for the remainder of > the day, and you're looking for another boat tomorrow. That is fair -- your boat and you make the rules. I hope you make these rules known prior to trips. Honestly if I knew your stand and what you expected I could choose to remain within thiose constraints or make other diving arrangements. But if we were diving and suddenly you try to send me to the surface because I touched something you didn't like -- that would piss me off to no end. Kinda like the hunting club Lee belongs to. Kimber > My boat, my rules - otherwise you're a passenger for the remainder of > the day, and you're looking for another boat tomorrow. When I dive from Lee's boat, we look for divers from other boats and shove spiny urchins up their a.ses. "mike gray, CID" <mikegrayCID@worldnut.nut> wrote in message news:11sAb.159667$Ec1.6216993@bgtnsc05- > > My boat, my rules - otherwise you're a passenger for the remainder of > > the day, and you're looking for another boat tomorrow. > > When I dive from Lee's boat, we look for divers from other boats and > shove spiny urchins up their a.ses. Ouch! Kimber > > > My boat, my rules - otherwise you're a passenger for the remainder of > > > the day, and you're looking for another boat tomorrow. > > > > When I dive from Lee's boat, we look for divers from other boats and > > shove spiny urchins up their a.ses. Ah, there was a time . . . That time's not now. Ever since whatever disease it was damned near wiped out the spiney sea urchins, the've been too scarce to treat so badly. We have lots of puffers and, once the realize that a.s ain't gonna eat them, they can deflate and escape. I must admit that I did not mourn the demise of spiney sea urchins, but I have to wonder what the downside has been. Do you suppose they eat that redish brown algae that's showing up all over the place? Lee > > > > My boat, my rules - otherwise you're a passenger for the remainder of > > > > the day, and you're looking for another boat tomorrow. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lee Kina (Spiny sea urchins) here mostly eat kelp and seaweed. rhys > I've handled them, too, many times, just not so aggressively that they > panic and inflate. I've been told that it's not good for them, and I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Gordon in Austin > -- Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal of Morphology 220: 243-261 "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<S_Iwb. > It's a natural thing for them to do. What makes you think it's bad for > them? The physical act of puffing up isn't bad for them, but deliberately stressing them to get them to puff is. > He paid a rather significant price for his mistake. Good score for the fish. -- Submergo ergo sum > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html > > sounds like the puffer fish will be left alone as they should have been to > start with. making puffer fish blow up is not goog for them. > puffers 1 diver 0 According to the story, he didn't make the puffer blow up. He wiggled his fingers in front of it while it was boxed into a hole with no means of escape. Seems like he choose a silly thing to do... and it's very different from making a puffer blow up in open water. **Ken Kurtis, if you're reading this - just hush...and have a nice Thanksgiving. :) > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > porcupine fish > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html ROFLMAO!! Imagine that, an act of stupidity that didn't kill the offender. Poor little fishie, all he/she got was part of a finger - and through a glove no less. Gloves? What th...? I'M TELLIN MOM!!! Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273 "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur Jer left this mess on Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:50:16 -0600 for The Way to clean up: >> Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing >> porcupine fish [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >little fishie, all he/she got was part of a finger - and through a glove >no less. Gloves? What th...? I'M TELLIN MOM!!! I'm surprised Scuba Booby covered it, there being no death attributed to PADI or Rodales and all... Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 (Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif > I'm surprised Scuba Booby covered it, there being no death attributed to PADI or > Rodales and all... Au contraire: "Jupiter Dive Center is a P.A.D.I. training facility." -- http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/training.html > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > porcupine fish Hey, Dan V! Did you see this article in the South Palm Beach Post? Thinking of you. ;^) > > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > > porcupine fish > > Hey, Dan V! Did you see this article in the South Palm Beach Post? > Thinking of you. ;^) As Jack would say, hahaha :-) About 20 years ago, a friend of mine, underwater videographer Art Waters, shot a diver grabbing a big puffer fish, then tucking it under his arm like a football. The video then shoes the puffer fish bite down on the roll of fat the diver had on his lower torso, this to be followed by the diver frantically attempting to dislodge the annoyed ( or hungry) puffer fish. Several stitches and a nasty scar later, left that diver embarrassed, and it left me happy I could learn by someone else's misfortune ;-) I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as the evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-) Regards, Dan V. > I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its > "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as the > evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-) Yeah, yeah. You just don't get bit 'cause your fins are so damn long the poor puffer thinks you're a whale shark. > I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its > "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as the > evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-) You and me both. I'm gentle with them and, these days, only pick on the really impressive ones, those that grow to basketball size. I must admit that I've always known enough to gently cradle them from the sides, keeping hands and other parts clear of their jaws. Just about everything will bite to get free and you don't have to be real observant to notice the puffer's beak like teeth or to figure out how much damage they might do. Lee > > I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its > > "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as > the > > evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-) > You and me both. I'm gentle with them and, these days, only pick on the > really impressive ones, those that grow to basketball size. I must admit [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > beak like teeth or to figure out how much damage they might do. > Lee Lee... I am sitting here smiling because you are the one who got me into the awful practice of puffing puffers. Ever since that dive that you and I did 2 summers ago where you puffed one and then 'passed' the little rascle to me, I've been hooked on puffing them up. On my last trip to Sea of Cortez, I was puffing them up with wild abandon on every dive, puffing up 2 or 3 or 4 of them on each dive and trying to pass them to fellow divers like you did with me. Someone took a close-up pic of me doing this and I'll have to send ya the pic. Anyways... Ken and a few others dubbed me a fish molester and yelled at me for doing this, saying the same thing that we all tend to hear..."The puffers are being over-taxed if you puff them." About a week after our trip, Ken was doing his duties as a diver in the aquarium and got bit hard by a puffer while trying to feed them. I told him that he just doesn't know how to handle puffers. He was not amused at all. I agree with you that they are not going to bite when you puff them if you cradle their sides. You are the one who taught me that fine technique !! Also, I think you need to keep your hands a certain distance from them when they are puffed because the spines will stick you otherwise. What I learned from you is that it's a 'touch-release, touch-release" kind of thing when you handle them. Anyone who is fool enough to grab one and hold on to it will either get stuck or get bit. The thing with Ken getting bit was that the fish didn't honor his finger apart from the food Ken was offering it and I guess that Ken wasn't fast enough for some reason, which is weird since he's been feeding them at the aquarium for many, many years and he's very experienced. My joke to him about handling puffers was really just a joke 'cause he certainly knows what he's doing. However, the feeding motion and the cradling motion are NOT the same... your hands / fingers are in a very different position for each. Now... as per to this story about the Instructor, the guy had a puffer cornered in a hole. He waved his fingers in front of the fish's mouth and the fish had no way of escaping. That is the ultimate in stupidity for a diver. I've seen ppl come onto the front of a nurse shark and stick their hand up to the shark, not even bothering to see if the shark had room to back up or move to the side or escape any other way. They think a nurse shark is docile and never bites. Guess again !! I've also seen ppl like Mike Gray and Ken Kurtis be able to pet /scratch big eels under their chins. Mike and Ken are able to do this because : 1) They have balls. 2) They make sure the eel is not trapped and feeling threatened by their presence. IOW, they are looking at the situation they are placing the animal in before they get that close to the animal. It doesn't take much common sense to realize that any animal, including a human, will attack when it feels it has no escape. Therefore, sticking your fingers in front of a puffer who can't back up is not a smart move. NFTM, I don't think that making a puffer puff up is any different than making your dog play a hard aggressive game with you. The reflexes to survive are not taxing... they are there for a purpose. The purpose is to protect and that reflex will act up when needed and go away when not needed. If it were all that taxing, the animal would drop dead during the process. In the case of puffers, they don't...they swim away. And... I must say that I came across my biggest challenge this past dive trip when one puffer didn't puff. He simply looked at me like..."Go ahead, I dare ya." I cradled him for a long while and he didn't care. He didn't puff up. He was gonna bite me if he could. He wasn't afraid of me at all. <big grin> > Lee... I am sitting here smiling because you are the one who got me > into the awful practice of puffing puffers. (snip) For shame, for shame, you two. I repeat the quote I made to Dan V.: "Is(sic) is clear from a recent study that the power of inflating has dramatic effects on blood circulation (due to the increased internal pressure) and on digestion (due to the stomach change in volume), and it is therefore the last resource, that a puffer fish can use for a limited number of times (7 to 12), to avoid death. For this reason we invite all the divers to not provoke puffer fish "inflation": this means a useless stress for the fish, that significantly reduces its life span." The quote was taken from: www.edge-of-reef.com So be careful out there boys and girls and respect the environment and its inhabitants that occasionally tolerate our presence. > > "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:<kTVwb.22288$Wy4.21381@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > So be careful out there boys and girls and respect the environment and its > inhabitants that occasionally tolerate our presence. http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/puffup.htm "The inflation of porcupinefishes is a defence measure, and as such there is no limit to the number of times an individual can inflate (and deflate). If the fish inflates at the surface, it is likely to ingest air. Air can be difficult to expel, and can lead to death of the fish as the fish floats and cannot leave the surface. However, if the fish inflates under water, it ingests only water and has no problem deflating once the danger has passed. Perhaps your friend was told the story about a limited number of inflations by someone with good conservation motives, in an effort to influence divers to not hassle fish in order to see them inflate. I hope this answers your question" further reading is in a properly published peer reviewed scientific journal. not a divemasters anecdote. Whats the study refered to by the edge-of-reef chaps? Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal of Morphology 220: 243-261 rhys > > > "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message > > news:<kTVwb.22288$Wy4.21381@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>... [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > not a divemasters anecdote. Whats the study refered to by the edge-of-reef > chaps? Frankly, I was somewhat disturbed that they had not noted that. Now, of course, I shall have to email them and get that info. > Brainerd, E.L. 1994. Pufferfish Inflation: Functional Morphology of > Postcranial Structures in Diodon holocanthus (Tetraodontiformes). Journal of > Morphology 220: 243-261 Interesting. 1994, could be a dated study. :^) My search shall continue. I am passionate about this, there can be no question that stress shortens our life spans as human beings. It is likely that stress shortens the life span of any animal or creature and therefore, I shall remain undaunted in my attempts to encourage other divers to discontinue this practice. If nothing else, it is just plain mean. On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:44:18 GMT, "chilly" wrote ... >I shall remain undaunted in my attempts to encourage other divers to >discontinue this practice. If we notice an increase in the number of divers missing a finger, we'll assume that you were all that successful in your attempts... <snicker> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:34:48 GMT, Grumman-581 <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM.houston.rr.com> wrote ... >On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:44:18 GMT, "chilly" wrote ... >>I shall remain undaunted in my attempts to encourage other divers to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >we'll assume that you were all that successful in your attempts... ><snicker> CORRECTION: "We'll assume that you *weren't* all that successful in your attempts" > My search shall continue. I am passionate about this, there can be no > question that stress shortens our life spans as human beings. It is likely > that stress shortens the life span of any animal or creature and therefore, > I shall remain undaunted in my attempts to encourage other divers to > discontinue this practice. If nothing else, it is just plain mean. Not any meaner than puffing up divers. I love to sneak up on the jerks puffing up the puffer fish, grab their inflator, and puff them up. It's a hoot watching their expression as they rocket to the surface. > Not any meaner than puffing up divers. I love to sneak up on the jerks > puffing up the puffer fish, grab their inflator, and puff them up. It's a > hoot watching their expression as they rocket to the surface. (chuckle) Lends a whole new meaning to "Big Eye" don't it? :)) Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' ICQ = 35253273 "All that we do is touched with ocean, yet we remain on the shore of what we know." -- Richard Wilbur > (snip) For shame, for shame, you two. I repeat the quote I made to Dan V.: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > So be careful out there boys and girls and respect the environment and its > inhabitants that occasionally tolerate our presence. Hmmm. Well... after reading what chilly bean said here, I must say that I am not happy. If the stuff in the quote she sites is true, then I am ashamed of myself for puffing up puffers. :( I must say that I thought the 'puffer response' was no more than the "fight or flight syndrome" for humans and other animals... ie. something that would kick in when needed and not something that is harmful to the animal or in a limited supply. With so many ppl saying that it's a 'no-no", I think I should investigate further before I touch another puffer. > > (snip) For shame, for shame, you two. I repeat the quote I made to Dan V.: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 'no-no", I think I should investigate further before I touch another > puffer. Another study mentioned in an Aussie site, in a peer reviewed scientific journal says there is no harm to the puffer. Chillies emailing the reefers(sic) to see where their info comes from. Admittedly my reference was to a '94 study, and I pinched it from a uk.rec.scuba branch of this thread that had the cross posting cut out so it wasn't reflected here in rec.scuba rhys > Another study mentioned in an Aussie site, in a peer reviewed scientific > journal says there is no harm to the puffer. Chillies emailing the > reefers(sic) to see where their info comes from. Admittedly my reference was > to a '94 study, and I pinched it from a uk.rec.scuba branch of this thread > that had the cross posting cut out so it wasn't reflected here in rec.scuba I see that post. Perhaps some of us here will be able to come up with other info on the topic. :) > Hmmm. Well... after reading what chilly bean said here, I must say > that I am not happy. If the stuff in the quote she sites is true, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 'no-no", I think I should investigate further before I touch another > puffer. I thought that puffing puffers was a recognized no-no, along the lines of touching coral and catching rides with turtles and mantas. Frankly I'm shocked. > > Hmmm. Well... after reading what chilly bean said here, I must say > > that I am not happy. If the stuff in the quote she sites is true, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 'no-no", I think I should investigate further before I touch another > > puffer. > I thought that puffing puffers was a recognized no-no, along the lines of > touching coral and catching rides with turtles and mantas. Frankly I'm > shocked. Well... hmm. I would never try to catch a ride on a manta or a turtle. I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a manta because they are just a bit too big for me to be messing with but I have touched / petted smaller rays. I have experienced that both turtles and rays actually seem to like to be petted. Perhaps it feels like grooming to them. I try to watch so that I don't kick or grab coral but if I need to so that I can pause to watch something, I'll use the 'one finger' technique. I like to handle animals while diving and puffers fit into that catagory. > Well... hmm. I would never try to catch a ride on a manta or a turtle. > I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I'll use the 'one finger' technique. I like to handle animals while > diving and puffers fit into that catagory. It's claimed that many underwater species have a protective mucus coating which is disturbed by a diver's touch, potentially harming the animal - this is the reason given by many dive operations that forbid touching manta rays. The State of Hawaii claims that touching sea turtles distresses them, so they ban any turtle touching. If you want to touch loads of coral, I advise the Tahiti Aggressor. I for one will count to ten before touching a puffer; of course, some may choose to count to 9 1/2. Fred > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > It's claimed that many underwater species have a protective mucus coating > which is disturbed by a diver's touch, potentially harming the animal - this > is the reason given by many dive operations that forbid touching manta rays. I have heard that particular reason and a different reason re: mantas. I heard that Mantas simply can't support someone of human adult size hanging on to them. I have a feeling that the story about the protective mucous coating thing is load of crap. Humans touch alot of species that are at zoos, aquariums, water parks, pet shops, etc. Those animals end up doing alright. And the species had best be able to survive something puncturing its "mucus coating" when it lives off the reef and is banged against the rock and against the other species living by it. > The State of Hawaii claims that touching sea turtles distresses them, so > they ban any turtle touching. Ok. Cool for them. I've heard that if you hold onto a turtle, it won't be able to swim properly and it will drown. Never tried it. Never will. Now... I'm telling you that I've seen turtles come back for another touch by me. Ken can tell you this too as he was there with me during the dive. He was upset that I was petting the turtle during the dive until he saw that it came back to me during that dive. He was truly convinced that the turtle liked us when he saw that the same turtle came back to me on another dive later the next day. That turtle liked to be played with and petted. And, when I thought I was going to die off of Kimodo after being swept 2 miles from the boat, there was a turtle who joined me during my drift dive. He appeared from no where and he stayed with me... just under me. He stayed with me until I decided to surface and try to make a go of it. He kept me company IOW. Also, when I was diving Chinchorro Reef in August, I got to pet a ray. He stayed with me so long on the bottom that others got to come over and see him, touch him too. I have a pic of him if you would like to see. It's a glorious pic because it shows his eyes and they are truly open and watching. He liked us being there !!! > If you want to touch loads of coral, I advise the Tahiti Aggressor. I don't wanna touch loads of coral and I have no desire to go onto an Aggressor liveaboard. But thanks anyway. I think that the next liveaboard I do (not counting the Don Jose and such) will be one that I charter privately. I want to look into this and I think I'd like a sailboat that I "own" for the week, just hire out the Captain and a cook, first mate, etc. It's just a matter of where to dive and how many ppl want to go at this point but I am going to put this kinda trip together soon. Hey... we could end up being the real life version of the movie "Captain Ron". Who knows. But I guarantee it will be fun. <grin> > Those animals end up doing alright. And the species had best be able > to survive something puncturing its "mucus coating" when it lives off > the reef and is banged against the rock and against the other species > living by it. I've never seen mantas "bang against rock". Perhaps you've only seen poor-swimming mantas, not the graceful ones I've seen. Some mantas display a pinkish sort of rash. I was told that was the direct result of human contact. > And, when I thought I was going to die off of Kimodo after being swept > 2 miles from the boat, there was a turtle who joined me during my > drift dive. He appeared from no where and he stayed with me... just > under me. He stayed with me until I decided to surface and try to make > a go of it. He kept me company IOW. Uh huh. Just like buzzards and vultures will keep people company as they're dying from dehydration in a desert and circling sharks keep shipwreck victims company as they're drowining. > I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a > manta because they are just a bit too big for me to be messing with > but I have touched / petted smaller rays. I have experienced that > both turtles and rays actually seem to like to be petted. I've noticed that, too, but I don't think they appreciate it as much as some critters. If you're ever in Yellowstone, the grizzlies really like to be scratched behind their ears, and the bison just love to be tickled under the chin. Some naysayers will tell you to just leave them alone, because it's bad for the animals or that it's dangerous, but pay them no mind. I guarantee that nobody has ever lost their pinkie to a grizzly or a bison. The squirrels, OTOH, occasionaly mistake your pinkie for a peanut, so you should give them a wide berth. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > > I do touch turtles and if I can, I will pet them. I would not touch a > > manta because they are just a bit too big for me to be messing with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > their pinkie to a grizzly or a bison. The squirrels, OTOH, occasionaly mistake your > pinkie for a peanut, so you should give them a wide berth. You are probably right. I've never met up with a bear in the wild but they are all over here. We have browns. I often think about it and I hope that I won't meet one while I walk my dogs in the woods here. The bears end up south of me and ppl yell and and scream. LOL The neighborhoods north of me have to do heavy duty trash detail because the bears break into their trash cans all the time. The grizzlies at Yellowstone are used to 'ppl food' to the point that they know a bag of chips sitting on your car seat and will tear open your car to get to the chips. Cute isnt it ?? The bison here are on a ranch right around the corner from my house. They can be petted but within a day or so they are gonna be turned into burgers and steaks. There's a big bison farm here in Coopersburg, PA and they do a booming business. The squirrels can be nasty. We used to feed them by hand off my parents kitchen window and my mom still does that on occassion. They love cookies... got a sweet tooth, they do !! :) I was walking around in the Arboretum in Golden Gate Park one day, and squirrels were everywhere, begging for food. I was ignoring them, but then I felt something on my pants leg. A squirrel had stood on his hind legs, grabbed a handful of cloth as high as he could reach, and was tugging on it and looking up at me. SignaturePOPI Classification [ ]General Business Information [x]Motorola Internal Use [ ]Motorola Confidential Proprietary > "Is(sic) is clear from a recent study that the power of > inflating has dramatic effects on blood circulation (due to the increased [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > stress for the fish, that significantly reduces its life span." The quote > was taken from: www.edge-of-reef.com Very interesting. Male Homo sapiens has the same problem. 7 to 12 times, then death. > > "Is(sic) is clear from a recent study that the power of > > inflating has dramatic effects on blood circulation (due to the increased [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Very interesting. Male Homo sapiens has the same problem. 7 to 12 times, > then death. That's too bad. Female Homo sapiens don't have the same problem. They can inflate multiple times. >I've also seen ppl like Mike Gray and Ken Kurtis be able to pet >/scratch big eels under their chins. Mike and Ken are able to do this >because : 1) They have balls. and 2) No brains. > >I've also seen ppl like Mike Gray and Ken Kurtis be able to pet > >/scratch big eels under their chins. Mike and Ken are able to do this > >because : 1) They have balls. > > and 2) No brains. Nothing to do with balls or lack of brains. Just means you posed no threat. Scott >> >I've also seen ppl like Mike Gray and Ken Kurtis be able to pet >> >/scratch big eels under their chins. Mike and Ken are able to do this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Scott No, it usually means you're diving with some jerk who wants to impress everybody with his stupid "lion-tamer" act. Divers with brains observe marine wildlife and keep their hands to themselves. > > Hey, Dan V! Did you see this article in the South Palm Beach Post? > > Thinking of you. ;^) > > As Jack would say, hahaha :-) Geez, let's not talk about that guy. "haha" > About 20 years ago, a friend of mine, underwater videographer Art Waters, > shot a diver grabbing a big puffer fish, then tucking it under his arm like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Several stitches and a nasty scar later, left that diver embarrassed, and > it left me happy I could learn by someone else's misfortune ;-) And what was it that you learned by someone else's misfortune? Not to tuck it under your arm? :^P > I admit it, I have "helped" the occasional puffer fish to practice its > "predator protection strategies" on occasion, and to recognize humans as the > evil "usurpers of the reef" that we are :-) LOL, very DIR. (just a joke, my friend) But this is not: "Is(sic) is clear from a recent study that the power of inflating has dramatic effects on blood circulation (due to the increased internal pressure) and on digestion (due to the stomach change in volume), and it is therefore the last resource, that a puffer fish can use for a limited number of times (7 to 12), to avoid death. For this reason we invite all the divers to not provoke puffer fish "inflation": this means a useless stress for the fish, that significantly reduces its life span." The quote was taken from: www.edge-of-reef.com So be careful out there boys and girls and respect the environment and its inhabitants that occasionally tolerate our presence. > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > porcupine fish > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html Did anybody else go to the dive shops website? I was hoping to get a little more information, but was sadly disappointed on that front. However, I was somewhat surprised by a picture at http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/divereport.html. The 3rd from the last picture has a guy with a minimum of 8 tanks (4 sets of doubles). Maybe this is standard procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before. Makes my single 80 look kinda puny... > > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > > porcupine fish [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > is standard procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before. Makes my > single 80 look kinda puny... http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/newsletter/Mad%20Puffer%20Fish%20Attacks%20Diver.htm > > > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > > > porcupine fish [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > is standard procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before. Makes my > > single 80 look kinda puny... http://www.jupiterdivecenter.com/newsletter/Mad%20Puffer%20Fish%20Attacks%20Diver.htm Yeah, I found that, but it didn't really tell me anything more than the article. > The 3rd from the last picture has a guy with a minimum > of 8 tanks (4 sets of doubles). Maybe this is standard > procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before. > Makes my single 80 look kinda puny... Does he actually swim those around or is it more of an aid to ensure that he accomplishes the drift dives at the same speed as the current? <grin> > > The 3rd from the last picture has a guy with a minimum > > of 8 tanks (4 sets of doubles). Maybe this is standard [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does he actually swim those around or is it more of an aid to ensure that he > accomplishes the drift dives at the same speed as the current? <grin> I would have thought it was an aid in getting down... I wonder how much of the air he carries goes into his BCD? ;) rhys > Did anybody else go to the dive shops website? I was hoping to get a little > more information, but was sadly disappointed on that front. However, I was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is standard procedure, but I haven't ever experienced it before. Makes my > single 80 look kinda puny... Damn. As near as I can tell, he isn't wearing a drysuit either. I'll bet he had no trouble getting down. At least he's wearing good fins. Lee > > Did anybody else go to the dive shops website? I was hoping to get a > little [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Lee So, you mean that isn't a normal configuration? I thought maybe it was like DIR^3 or something. > > > Did anybody else go to the dive shops website? I was hoping to get a > > little [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > So, you mean that isn't a normal configuration? I thought maybe it was like > DIR^3 or something. Hey guys, I think I figured it out... it's an underwater filling station. Just turn off your valve, disconnect your regulators (don't forget to replace the rubber caps to keep them dry) and within 10 minutes you can continue your dive in peace... <eg> >> Did anybody else go to the dive shops website? I was hoping to get a >little [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Lee WTF is that?! Ok, I thought I had seen it all. I was wrong, assuming that's not photoshop. -- SignatureKarl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist http://www.denninger.net Tired of spam at your company? LOOK HERE! http://childrens-justice.org Working for family and children's rights http://diversunion.org LOG IN AND GET YOUR TANK STICKERS TODAY! > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > porcupine fish > > http://www.cdnn.info/eco/e031123a/e031123a.html Old news again from Scuba Booby? Well he/she/it is the king/queen of put someone else's news up as his/her own. > > Fingerless in Florida: PADI instructor loses finger after harassing > > porcupine fish [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Old news again from Scuba Booby? Well he/she/it is the king/queen of > put someone else's news up as his/her own. Just wonderin' , do the puffer fish use finger bowls ?? SignatureRegards ............... Rheilly Phoull Perhaps you should all be like the diver and STOP POINTING the FINGER hahahah ,,,, sorry ah god I crack my self up .,,,, Mark xx > > "newz" <Newz@scuba.newz> wrote in message > news:<3fc32f40$0$27767$45beb828@newscene.com>... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Just wonderin' , do the puffer fish use finger bowls ?? > Perhaps you should all be like the diver and STOP POINTING the FINGER > hahahah ,,,, sorry ah god I crack my self up .,,,, > > Mark xx Yeah, you do sound like you are on crack, you better not be caught by a cop with that stuff in your possession. rhys |
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