Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
ArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneous
Discussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK Scuba
DirectoryScuba Clubs

Scuba Forum / General / September 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Dive Report - Spiegle Grove

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Lee Bell - 19 Sep 2005 17:48 GMT
The Keys may never be the same again.  Beginning sometime around Wednesday,
several of the rec.scuba regulars began their journey toward Key Largo.
I've heard stories about what went on before I arrived and, judging from the
condition of Limey Dave (out like a light) Popeye (awake, but hurt badly
enough to swear of serious partying for the duration of the trip), they must
have been true.

I got to Key Largo around 4:00 PM on Friday.  Dave and Popeye returned from
Marathon (lord only knows why they were in Marathon) shortly thereafter.
After an excellent dinner at Ganim's Steak and Rib restaurant (Dave hardly
tasted his), we headed back to the motel for some rest and, in their case,
recuperation, before our busy next day.

Up at the crack of . . . well, sometime Saturday AM, we headed out for some
breakfast.  Dave was mostly recovered and Popeye was back to his usual
gregarious self.  Fortified for the events to come, we then set out to
ensure adequate gas, equipment, etc. for the afternoon dives on the Spiegle
Grove.  Like the last time, we chose Silent World Dive Shop for our
transportation.  Rick and his wife Janet are salt of the earth kind of
people who run a nice, efficient and clean dive shop near the north end of
Key largo.  In addition to being a very nice person, Janet is easy on the
eyes.  If she, and I, weren't married . . . ah hell, she still would be too
good for me.  Their boat is well designed and maintained and their crew is
both skilled and experienced.  They were unobtrusive when they should have
been, but right there to help when help was needed.  More about that, in a
minute.

With everything we needed arranged, or so I thought, all that remained was
to hook up with Curtis and head for the boat.  We were successful at both.

We set up most equipment on the way to the dive site.  That's when I found
that none of my half dozen pairs of gloves were in the dive bag I brought.
No problem.  Popeye loaned me a pair.  At the site, I turned on my gas only
to have one of the O rings inside my contents gauge give up on the spot.
This was a bit more of a hassle and is also where our mate, AJ, came to the
rescue.  With borrowed gloves and a borrowed console, I was still one of the
first in the water.

The water was in the upper 80s and visibility was probably about the same.
We were tied off to the stern of the ship which lies at about 100 feet.  The
bottom lies at about 130.  The ship, or about half of it, began to be
visible at about 15 feet.  From there, things just got better and better.
There's no way to describe the quality of this dive except to say it was
every bit as spectacular as I had hoped.  I was disappointed when we dove
the ship on its side.  Frankly, it just didn't impress me at all.  Let me
tell you, that was not the case now that hurricane Dennis turned it right
side up.  The ship is impressive from a distance and interesting up close
and personal.  It's in great shape and offers all kinds of opportunities for
all levels of divers.  Just exploring the outside of the ship fully would
require half a dozen dives.  There are enough swim-throughs (light visible
at all times) to keep the more adventurous busy for a half dozen more.
Deeper penetration, which is beyond my interest, could keep the most
experienced wreck diver coming back for years. We spent about 30 minutes on
the wreck, maxing out at 130 feet, but spending most of our time in the 90
to 100 foot range and about 15 minutes making our way slowly back to the
surface.  We covered the well deck up to the superstructure.  On the second
dive, we tied off to the bow and, more or less, repeated our profiles, this
time covering the bow back to the front of the superstructure.  By covered,
of course, I mean we saw most of it and closely explored a very small
portion of it.

I seemed to be having a bit of a struggle with my buoyancy.  Eventually, the
problem became evident.  My low pressure inflator was leaking into my wing.
Once identified, it was not a big problem, but it was annoying for a while.
On trip home, it was kind of fun to watch my wing inflate itself.  So much
for my maintenance routine.  Lesson learned.  Both the gauge and inflator
had gone without service since I bought them, around 1999, I think.

On the trip back to shore we got to know Daniel and Carmen, a brother and
sister dive team.  He's from New Jersey and she's from somewhere else.  I'm
a married man.  I don't ask too many questions about single women.

Back at Silent World, Janet took about 2 minutes to identify the problem
with my depth gauge and about 30 seconds to fix it.  Most impressive
service.  She doesn't work on Halcyon products (hey, they're supposed to be
robust, no?), so, once again, I had to rely on Popeye.  He had a spare valve
end in his amazing bag full of dive stuff.  A few minutes later, all my
equipment problems were resolved.

Daniel and Carmen joined us for another great dinner at Ganims.  It was
Karaoke night, something I strongly recommend against.  On the other hand
the food was excellent . . . again.

Sometime around 10:00 PM, we headed back to the motel for more recuperation
for the dives we planned for Sunday.  Dave headed home to his lovely wife.

Sunday AM, we dropped in to the ship to pick up Popeye's tanks (Curtis, Dave
and I took our own) and headed to the boat.  Another dive on the Spiegle
Grove, this time hooked amidships.  We formed a 3 man dive team for this
dive and covered all of the ship we hadn't seen in the previous two dives.
Another spectacular dive in paradise.

Popeye headed up first and Curtis and I followed a bit later.  It was a very
good thing he left . . . for one of our fellow divers.  Just after Popeye
boarded the boat, a diver in distress appeared at the ladder.  He had almost
no control of his arms or legs and required assistance to get into the boat.
He was not a small person.  If it had been me helping, he's still be in the
water.  Popeye, true to his name, put his spinach to work and got the guy
aboard where his wife, a paramedic, and a dive instructor/former paramedic,
took over his care.

Curtis and I were the last two aboard.  When we boarded, all lines were
pulled in, the mooring was released and we headed to shore with all possible
speed.  There aren't many times it's OK to cut one of my dive trips short,
but this was certainly one of them.  Nobody, from beginner to most advanced,
even questioned the need.  Our injured diver was in serious condition.  The
oxygen helped.  On the way in, he partially recovered.  Nevertheless, he was
still in pretty serious condition when we reached to dock.  The EMTs were
waiting for us at the dock.  Popeye, Curtis and I helped get the victim on
the stretcher and onto the dock for transportation to the hospital.  We
later heard that he was not bent, but had, instead, had an embolism due to
an existing heart problem.  Curtis's guess was arterial gas embolism due to
a PFO.  He might be right.  Personally, I suspect he stayed too deep, for
two long and did no deco to mitigate it.  We later got word that he was in
the chamber and was expected to be OK.  I suspect he'll take more than one
chamber ride.  I'm sure he's very lucky to be alive.

Rick offered those who were on the first trip, a free second trip to make up
for the missed dive.  That's the kind of consideration I associate with good
shops and earned quite a few points for Silent World in my book.  Curtis,
Daniel, Carmen and I took him up on the offer.  Popeye declined, taking the
time to get his equipment rinsed, dried and sorted for his trip back to
Miami and to work.  Frankly, I kind of wish I'd declined too.  The first
dive was on a sparse section of reef without much color or particularly
interesting life.  The max depth was 21 feet and I averaged 12.  I darned
near went to sleep.  The second dive, on North North Dry Rocks, was also
shallow, but better.  It maxed at about 30 feet, but had a lot of high
relief.  It was nice, but not something I would travel a couple hundred
miles to dive.

When all was said and done, we headed back, cleaned up ourselves and
equipment and said our goodbyes.

Jayna loves Key Lime Pound Cake from Islamorada Bakery.  Not knowing
anything was amiss, I headed 20 miles further south to get her one.  On the
way, I learned that the Keys were under a tropical storm warning, soon to be
upgraded to a hurricane warning.  Rita was on the way.  Going south was not
problem, but the traffic picked up on the way back north thanks to a
voluntary tourist evacuation recommendation.

Around 8:00 PM, I got home, a bit tired, very happy I made the trip and
almost as happy to be back home.

So, here are a few things worth knowing about the trip:
1. Silent World just earned a spot on my very short "Shops I Recommend"
list.  Their shop, their personnel and their consideration for their
customers combined to put them on the list of operators I'll go out of my
way to use again and that I will recommend to others.  They did OK the first
time we used them.  They did very well this time.  Thanks to Rick and Janet.
2. Ganim's restaurants are all excellent.  Breakfast, lunch or dinner,
they're a good choice.
3. Gloria Teague, the former owner of Lady Cyana Divers, is now in the
restaurant business.  Along with Bob Spencer, she owns the Islamorada
Bakery/Bob's Buns.  The restaurant is outstanding for Breakfast and Bob is a
master baker.  I drive 40 miles round trip, in the face of a tropical storm
warning and evacuation, to bring Jayna some of their Key Lime Pound Cake.
Incidentally, I ordered the cake from Gloria the night before . . . while
she was eating dinner someplace else.  She set it aside and even offered to
bring it home to Key Largo, where she lives, when she left work.  That's
service above and beyond.  All she asked in return is that I bring the crowd
back for breakfast sometime.  I'll certainly try.  If you happen to make it
down there, stop in and feel free to tell her I sent you.
4. The Spiegle Grove is worth the trip.  Enough said.
5. The next time I figure it's only a few dives in the Keys, I'll bring my
spare regulator anyway.  I'll also improve my care and maintenance
procedures to try to ensure I don't need that spare.
6. Dave, Popeye and Curtis are the kind of dive buddies I like to share dive
trips with.  I also enjoy partying with them . . . when they last long
enough for me to get to the party.

Lee
cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com - 19 Sep 2005 23:20 GMT
"gorilla version"

   After several posibilities unfolding starting with a Popeye call on
Monday night, ended up joining the motley crew in Key Largo for an
inspection of Popeye & my "liftbag escapades.  <WAG>

   After getting the schedule confirmed, headed down just before sunrise
for the 260+ mile / 4 1/2ish hour trip to KL, arriving just in time at the
shop to catch the gang still there.  (Note to Mossman, I drive to dive).

   Beautiful day Saturday, seas low, currents low to non-existant, water
86-87 deg F.

Lee and I paired, Limey and Pops paired, we met up for most of the bottom
time.  Lee's tale says enough from here.

128 FSW max for 45 minutes TDT, SI 55 min, 128 FSW max for 51 minutes TDT.

> Daniel and Carmen joined us for another great dinner at Ganims.  It was
> Karaoke night, something I strongly recommend against.  On the other hand
> the food was excellent . . . again.

   Except for Gloria, who took a turn and did have a singing voice worth
listening to, all I can say is I was starting to look at the amps & mixers
as slabs and the speakers as stacking blocks, wondering if I could palm heel
clean through all 5 layers.......'nuf said.

> Sometime around 10:00 PM, we headed back to the motel for more
> recuperation for the dives we planned for Sunday.  Dave headed home to his
> lovely wife.

   And I did my 2 shots of the tasty bottled treats compliments of Lee, the
first since my last SF dive trip.......I do make a good designated driver.
;-)

> Popeye headed up first and Curtis and I followed a bit later.  It was a
> very good thing he left . . . for one of our fellow divers.  Just after
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and got the guy aboard where his wife, a paramedic, and a dive
> instructor/former paramedic, took over his care.

   Very good indeed.  Lee and I do similiar ascents, the up line was very
busy.  I stop horizontally, so didn't see anything much above.  Being in my
doubles, I waited for others to board to ensure no one was underneath me on
the ladder.  Didn't realize there was a problem on board until on the
platform, the crew was very good in handling things and getting divers on
and around the injured diver without causing chaos.

>  We later heard that he was not bent, but had, instead, had an embolism
> due to an existing heart problem.  Curtis's guess was arterial gas
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> he'll take more than one chamber ride.  I'm sure he's very lucky to be
> alive.

   Figure from what description we heard we're both right, but without the
"official" report I'll leave it there.

135 FSW max for 41 minutes

   Kept short to allow for a second dive on the SG that didn't happen.
Love that view up from the sand on something that massive in such clear
water.

> Rick offered those who were on the first trip, a free second trip to make
> up for the missed dive.  That's the kind of consideration I associate with
> good shops and earned quite a few points for Silent World in my book.
> Curtis, Daniel, Carmen and I took him up on the offer.  Popeye declined,
> taking the time to get his equipment rinsed, dried and sorted for his trip
> back to Miami and to work.  Frankly, I kind of wish I'd declined too

   I agree, other than the good company of diving with Lee, the first dive
was just "chilling out".  Crew asked if we would take a third with our
group, we consented, figured I'd stay down the whole allowed hour with them.
Think Lee did likewise.  Was worth diving, was thinking Lee's lake would
have been more scenic.  But, still, do appreciate SW's offer.   Anyways, our
third diver was very appreciative of Lee & I letting him join, and let us
know it, so that was worthwhile to me.

   Dive #2 was more eventful.  Started to feel a tad queazy on the SI,
didn't get better during the dive, so after half an hour decided was enough.
Signaled Lee and surfaced, was close to the boat, signaled OK and proceeded
to chum the water for the next 5 minutes.  Not sure why, but Lee's comment
about surge made sence.  All I know is I still am hoarse.  Stayed in the
water until divers started out, noticed boat was bouncing a lot from the
seas picking up, figuring crew would appreciate the caution.

22 FSW max for 60 min, SI 30 mib, 26 FSW max for 30 min.

   During the goodbye, heard there was a mandatory evacuation for the
tourists due to Rita, so ran up Card Sound Rd and out (Jewfish Creek Bridge
had a long back-up, Lee's cakerun might have helped him).  Traffic seemed
busier than normal, but saved $5 in tolls going home......damn good idea to
speed the exit, convenient to me.  Home in time to give my SO her new SWDS
tank top (looks so damn good on her I'll have to make sure she doesn't wear
it near you guys.  ;-) ) and turn in totally exhausted.

   Definitely in line with Lee's comments, great company worth the drive,
and thanks again for the extra hospitality Lee & Doug.  We gotta do this
again.

Curtis
Don - 19 Sep 2005 23:25 GMT
Who gives a f.ck about your lame a.s diving in the keys????? This is
rec.scuba. Go f.ck yourself a.shole.
nitespark - 20 Sep 2005 03:04 GMT
> Who gives a f.ck about your lame a.s diving in the keys????? This is
> rec.scuba. Go f.ck yourself a.shole.

So where have you been diving recently?
Limey - 20 Sep 2005 04:54 GMT
>> Who gives a f.ck about your lame a.s diving in the keys????? This is
>> rec.scuba. Go f.ck yourself a.shole.
>
> So where have you been diving recently?

You mean *other* than up his own a.s?

LD.
cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com - 20 Sep 2005 12:07 GMT
>> So where have you been diving recently?
>
> You mean *other* than up his own a.s?

   He's doing MJB-style bottom time in my killfile.

Curtis
Limey - 20 Sep 2005 14:31 GMT
>>> So where have you been diving recently?
>>
>> You mean *other* than up his own a.s?
>
>    He's doing MJB-style bottom time in my killfile.

Yeah, rarely do I ever use one, but if Andy hadn't replied, I'd have never
noticed the asswipe.

LD.
Blkscubadiva - 20 Sep 2005 01:35 GMT
I was fortunate enough to dive the Speigle Grove last year.

It was still on it's side.
But the current was REALLY rough.
My usual dive partner didn't go down with me.
So I went down with someone else who's partner was feeling a sick
and nervous.

There was soo much current that day that the entire dive group was holding
on to the guide ropes attached to the ship.

On the way down there were two thermo clines. The changes int eh water
temperature
was about 10-15 degrees.

Now that i hear that it's sitting right side up.  I can't even imagine
just how
massive it appears.

> The Keys may never be the same again.  Beginning sometime around Wednesday,
> several of the rec.scuba regulars began their journey toward Key Largo.
[quoted text clipped - 167 lines]
>
> Lee
Lee Bell - 20 Sep 2005 03:05 GMT
>I was fortunate enough to dive the Speigle Grove last year.

A group of us did it last year too.  While we tried to be kind to the Keys
operators who went to so much trouble and expense to put the ship down
there, I was quite disappointed with the experience.

This time, I was not disappointed.

> Now that i hear that it's sitting right side up.  I can't even imagine
> just how massive it appears.

Not must massive, but a real, live warship.  For me, the problem last year
was that I never got a feel for the ship.  The only time you really get a
chance to get a real feel for the ship is as you descend or ascend.  With it
on its side, all you get to see then is the side.  Boring.  Now that it's
upright, when visibility is decent, as it was for our trip, you get to see
about half the ship as you descend, a half that grows to surprising
proportions as you approach the deck.  Most impressive.

If you get a chance, come down and do it again.  Let some of us know you're
coming and we might just join you.

Lee
sweir toronto canada - 20 Sep 2005 04:10 GMT
what do you hear of the diver who was hurt on your boat?  Why was it
thought it was PFO related?
Lee Bell - 20 Sep 2005 04:44 GMT
> what do you hear of the diver who was hurt on your boat?  Why was it
> thought it was PFO related?

The last word was that he would be OK.

What we were told was that he was not bent, but that he had an embolism
related to a pre existing heart condition, that he was in a chamber and that
he was expected to be OK.  PFO was merely a guess on our part.  I've heard
nothing more since we left Key Largo.  No surprise there, I don't even know
his name.

Personally, I'm more inclined to bet that he over stayed his no deco time,
but I really don't have a good reason for thinking that except that the site
was plenty deep enough for him to have incurred a significant deco
obligation, done the 5 minute safety stop his wife claims they both did, and
still beat us back to the boat.  Curtis and I both believe in slow ascents,
including multiple stops well below the first deco or safety stop.

Lee
cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com - 21 Sep 2005 02:57 GMT
> Why was it thought it was PFO related?

   Just a guess of mine from something I heard, remember I (we?) had "3rd
hand" information on his condition and "second hand" description of his
profile, though one of us witnessed the injury.  Only posting in response.

   Several of us exceeded the injured diver's profile, without incident.
In itself that means little, but the possibilities of exceeding a safe dive
are definitely present at this site.

   Good choice of words, BTW, related rather than caused.  Probably a
combination of causes.

Curtis
Snoopyto - 22 Sep 2005 00:54 GMT
Just a thought and showing some of ignorance as intermitent lurker.

With Rita going through the Keys, what are the chances that the
'Grove' has rolled again?  Did they make any attempts to secure her
via anchors in place or is are there other factors that would have
kept her from moving?

Thanks

David
Dennis (Icarus) - 22 Sep 2005 05:22 GMT
> Just a thought and showing some of ignorance as intermitent lurker.
>
> With Rita going through the Keys, what are the chances that the
> 'Grove' has rolled again?  Did they make any attempts to secure her
> via anchors in place or is are there other factors that would have
> kept her from moving?

It had beter not, I worked hard to right that ship, and it won't be til 2011
when I'd have another chance at it.

Seriously now, that is a good question....

Dennis

> Thanks
>
> David
Lee Bell - 22 Sep 2005 12:01 GMT
> With Rita going through the Keys, what are the chances that the
> 'Grove' has rolled again?  Did they make any attempts to secure her
> via anchors in place or is are there other factors that would have
> kept her from moving?

The odds are very much against such an event.  The Grove turned upright at
least partly because an anchor had been passed under the ship and secured to
hold the hull in place as tug boats pulled against the upper portion of the
ship to right it.  The tug boats, and the lines connecting them to the
wreck, proved insufficient for the task.  Over a couple of years, current
scoured sand out from under the hull.  Then along came hurricane Dennis.
The anchor did its job and the currents generated by Dennis did what the
tugs could not.  The ship turned into the scoured out sand and is now
actually deeper by a couple of feet, than it was before.  It's easy to say
now, but not easy to predict.  It was a most unlikely combination of
factors, not the least of which was luck.

Rita was not even a hurricane until it was say past the Key Largo area and
it passed about 100 miles from the area.  It's very unlikely that it
generated the force required to move a ship the size of the Grove . . . I
hope.

Sooner or later, there may be a big hurricane that moves the Grove.  It is
more likely, however, that it will tear it apart than that it will roll the
ship over again.  That's what has happened in the past and, eventually, is
the likely fate of the Grove.

Lee
Limey - 24 Sep 2005 02:35 GMT
> Just a thought and showing some of ignorance as intermitent lurker.
>
> With Rita going through the Keys, what are the chances that the
> 'Grove' has rolled again?  Did they make any attempts to secure her
> via anchors in place or is are there other factors that would have
> kept her from moving?

It's a possibility, though unlikely. She rolled into a hole that was created
by the current movving around her over the last coupla years. After seeing
what a collosal wreck she is, I would hazard a guess she'll be safe for a
while....of course, mother nature is the only contractor that *could* ever
move her again.

LD.
mike gray - 24 Sep 2005 20:34 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> LD.

You need to read some accounts of raising the fleet from Scapa Flow.

m

ps when is all this sucky viz gonna go away?
Douglas W. - 24 Sep 2005 21:05 GMT
>>>Just a thought and showing some of ignorance as intermitent lurker.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> LD.
> You need to read some accounts of raising the fleet from Scapa Flow.

 Nutshell version; Fascinating.

http://www.westernfront.co.uk/thegreatwar/articles/americanperspective/coxsscapa
flowfleet.htm


> m
>
> ps when is all this sucky viz gonna go away?
Limey - 27 Sep 2005 23:57 GMT
>> You need to read some accounts of raising the fleet from Scapa Flow.
>
>  Nutshell version; Fascinating.
>
> http://www.westernfront.co.uk/thegreatwar/articles/americanperspective/coxsscapa
flowfleet.htm

Thanks fer that. Good read.

LD.
Limey - 27 Sep 2005 23:56 GMT
>>>Just a thought and showing some of ignorance as intermitent lurker.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> m
Just read a little about it. Amazing. Of course, I should download a smiley
face with tongue in cheek and use it for a sig too.

> ps when is all this sucky viz gonna go away?

Looks better from here today, you been out lately? Might try to catch a dive
b4 the end of the week but been kinda busy lately.

LD.
Douglas W. - 23 Sep 2005 04:00 GMT
>> Why was it thought it was PFO related?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>    Good choice of words, BTW, related rather than caused.  Probably a
> combination of causes.

 I was actually beside/behind him in the water near the tag line.

 I came up horizontal and slow beside the anchor line because it's bad
manners to hang on it.

 This group of 5 or 6, including Dude, started up after me and passed me on
the way up, although not conspicuously fast.

 At the 15, he left the group a minute early by my calcs, and he looked a
little perturbed, nothing specific (he left his wife behind, frinstance).

 I followed him from underneath and came up behind him on the tag line.

 At that point, he had been moving and mobile, but when I came up behind
him, he started getting lethargic.

 By the time he got to the ladder, he was diminished.

 The crew was telling him to put his reg in his mouth, and his arm wouldn't
work (two -three minutes has elapsed since he left the 15).

 I swim around him, stick his reg in his mouth and max his BC, but at this
point he clearly has lost the use of his left arm and both legs.

 He seems very exausted, but he wasn't two minutes ago.

 I swim down, pull his fins, help get his BC off and hand it up. and got
underneath him (I'd call him 6'0"@275) and put my feet in the ladder and
lift him up on the transom.

 By this time, he can very barely communicate.

 The wife and instructor, both paramedics (as is he), start O2, and by the
time we hit the dock, he is responsive (joking) and can move his hands and
feet, although still unable to stand.

 Bad cramps hit his abdomen just as we off-loaded him.

 That was the last I knew.

> Curtis
Greg Mossman - 23 Sep 2005 07:47 GMT
>  At the 15, he left the group a minute early by my calcs, and he looked a
> little perturbed, nothing specific (he left his wife behind, frinstance).
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>  By this time, he can very barely communicate.

Damned if I ever want you diving with me.  That's how I finish most of my
dives.  On the other hand, if it will get you to lift me back on the boat,
maybe it's a good thing.

Obviously the guy just needed a beer.
Limey - 20 Sep 2005 19:38 GMT
> 6. Dave, Popeye and Curtis are the kind of dive buddies I like to share
> dive trips with.  I also enjoy partying with them . . . when they last
> long enough for me to get to the party.

We'll make up for it Columbus Day!

LD.
David Gintz - 21 Sep 2005 00:25 GMT
Lee: Great report. I may make the trip next spring and will contact the
folks you've dealt with.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.