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Scuba Forum / General / August 2005Soliciting Opinions...
Question for the masses... Preamble: I'm certified: NASDS (SSI) Advanced Open Water, 1990. I have a few hundred hours of bottom time. In the early 90s I ran a small part-time salvage operation in northern Vermont (recovering anchors, fishing equipment, even a couple of outboard motors). Been on several cold water wrecks, trips to Barbados/Bahamas/Hawaii, but most of my bottom time has been logged in lakes / rivers. In addition, I've probably got about 50 hours of bottom time in the Montreal Olympic dive basin (50ft training tank). The partner I worked with during the salvage biz was my father-in-law who, at the time I started retrieving lost goods, had all of 6 hours of bottom time (he owned the boat, I did the recovery). The following winter he went on a trip on the Aggressor, and spent a month doing Belize, Curacao, etc, etc (the whole circuit). The following summer he was an "expert" about everything. Needless to say, by 1998 diving was a bitter, painful experience and I haven't been in the water since. In 2000 my wife and I moved to San Francisco, and I wanted nothing to do with diving because of all the bitterness and bad memories I'd developed over the years of diving with a "buddy" that was overbearing and, IMO, dangerous. ----- Now, for various reasons (and 3000 miles distance), the bitterness has faded and I want to get back into it (as does my wife) -- but, I'm overweight and very out of shape. A friend of mine (newly certified in 2003, with around 10 hours of bottom time) is coming to visit in October and is *insisting* on going on a diving with me. I don't feel that a dive into the kelp forests of Monterey is something that I should be attempting with him right now, given his lack of experience and my dry-time/lack of physical conditioning. If I was still shape, then it'd be a no brainer -- I'm just very concerned about having to be on guard for the two of us at depth. In addition, I just had surgery on my hand and am not allowed in the pool until mid-September, giving me a mere 3 weeks until his visit to get used to being in the water again and to try to get a couple of check-out dives under my belt (I can start working on getting in shape now, so that's not really a reason to not go for it). He's pushing more and more for me to "not be a pussy" etc, etc -- but one of the first things a new diver learns is not to be pressured into something you're not comfortable with. Am I being over-cautious? What do you think? S. > Am I being over-cautious? What do you think? Diving isnt a physically stressful or physically demanding hobby, or shouldnt be. If you arent having fun get out of the water. A little ditty we were taught when handling ammo and explosives; I = Injury M = Medication S = Stress A = Alcohol F = Fatigue E = Emotion If any of these simple things are an issue, think twice. If two or more, dont dive. > He's pushing more and more for me to "not be a pussy" etc, etc -- but one > of the first things a new diver learns is not to be pressured into > something you're not comfortable with. > > Am I being over-cautious? What do you think? I think you're a pussy... ...If you -go- diving. You have put -wwwaayyy- too much time and effort into the simple "no, thanks" that an experienced diver would give, and experienced divers would accept. All the reasons and rationalization of your position are waffling on your part. I'm possibly the most gonzo suicidal diver on this group, which is a fair boast, and I've never once questioned someone who called a dive, for even the flimsyest of reasons. "Bad vibes" works fine for me, and you're -way- past that. While I hope you dive again, and find the love you once had for it, doing this dive is everything wrong about peer pressure in our sport, and whatever bad happens to you, you'll deserve. Invite your friend here for a discussion, and we'll be more than happy to f.ck him up real bad for you. Barring that, just see what everyone has to say, and then e-mail your friend a URL for the thread. Kinda like leaving mouthwash in someone's mailbox. Good luck with your diving. Eventually. Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. I wanted to do a sanity check to see if I'm being unreasonable. Who better to ask than divers? Still interested in more feedback, but I think Popeye's said all that's needed. I should also point out that I've got no issues doing a freshwater dive with him -- without tides/currents I don't give a crap about my physical condition, I know I can handle anything that comes up. Any decent freshwater dives in Northern Cali? >> He's pushing more and more for me to "not be a pussy" etc, etc -- but >> one of the first things a new diver learns is not to be pressured into [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Eventually. > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. Then he has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that he isnt the kind of person you want to dive with. This is a dive you need to thumb at the kitchen table. Pops is candid and one of the best human beings we all know but dont let him fool you, he is just a tiny little guy with a big mouth. Ask him about the time he took all his gear off and threw it away during a drift dive in Florida... > > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Ask him about the time he took all his gear off and threw it away during a > drift dive in Florida... At 30 meters. Some people will do -anything- in front of a camera... > > > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > > > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Some people will do -anything- in front of a camera... Not to mention Joan... > > > > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > > > > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Not to mention Joan... Anyone hear from her lately? > > Not to mention Joan... > > Anyone hear from her lately? Negative. E-mail or otherwise. I've sent several, but never got a reply or a bounce, so I dont know. Last time I saw her was when I was f.cking up my life at Brownies, and Ade, Ally and I took a ride up to see her and Mom. Last I heard she hooked up with Mr. Wonderful and was happy as she could be and diving her little buns off with the new ex. I bet Al Wells knows. > Last I heard she hooked up with Mr. Wonderful and was happy as she could > be > and diving her little buns off with the new ex. Last dove with her and "Mr Wonderful" on NYE, 2001-02, for a midnight dive at Little River. He was relocating to south Florida, may frequent other lists. Have to confess, I'm sort of glad I missed that peticular drift dive. ;-) Curtis > > Last I heard she hooked up with Mr. Wonderful and was happy as she could > > be > > and diving her little buns off with the new ex. > > Last dove with her and "Mr Wonderful" on NYE, 2001-02, for a midnight > dive at Little River. Sorry, I couldnt remember his name; I know she was happy. > He was relocating to south Florida, may frequent other lists. > > Have to confess, I'm sort of glad I missed that peticular drift dive. It was a hoot, really, something I sure didnt expect. I guess he thought we had talked the stunt over the night before, but all I remember was two 5ths of Patron... > > > Last I heard she hooked up with Mr. Wonderful and was happy as she could > > > be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sorry, I couldnt remember his name; I know she was happy. William. > > He was relocating to south Florida, may frequent other lists. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I guess he thought we had talked the stunt over the night before, but all I > remember was two 5ths of Patron... Bizarre is my specialty... >> > > Last I heard she hooked up with Mr. Wonderful and was happy as she >could [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Bizarre is my specialty... Help me work up a course outline and I'll sign your PIC Bizzare Diver. It has a nice ring. That would definitely be a "distinctive specialty"  Signaturedillon Pain is Nature's way of saying "that was stupid" > Help me work up a course outline and I'll sign your PIC > > Bizzare Diver. It has a nice ring. That would definitely be a > "distinctive specialty" 1) Puke tequila and nachos off the back of the boat. 2) Hit 90 fsw in a 2 knot drift. 3) Look at your co-diver and signal "take a picture". 4) Take off all your gear and toss it. 5) Signal "out of air" to the nearest diver. 6) Wait for your BC, tank, mask and weights to be brought to you. 7) Finish the dive. 8) Surface and endure an a.s chewing from Joan. >> Help me work up a course outline and I'll sign your PIC >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > 5) Signal "out of air" to the nearest diver. Will always be greatful to Al Wells for a perfect long hose donation. :-0 > 6) Wait for your BC, tank, mask and weights to be brought to you. After watching 5 or 6 people trying to hold you down like an Under Dog balloon in a Macy's parade. > 7) Finish the dive. After a 75 foot free ascent, roll into your gear and rejoin the crew. :-) > 8) Surface and endure an a.s chewing from Joan. > >> Help me work up a course outline and I'll sign your PIC > >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > 8) Surface and endure an a.s chewing from Joan. <almost grape nuts out the nose> > After a 75 foot free ascent, roll into your gear and rejoin the crew. :-) You forgot: 7.5) Descend in front of the drift line, signalling okay to everyone. Receive single finger salute in return. > > After a 75 foot free ascent, roll into your gear and rejoin the crew. :-) > > You forgot: > > 7.5) Descend in front of the drift line, signalling okay to everyone. > Receive single finger salute in return. I almost missed this thread. I can fill in a few details... The idea was hatched by Doug and was discussed among those present the previous night at Joan's house, after a telephone call with a "mother hen" (Salty) who chided us all to be careful. The idea was to take the picture and either post it or send it to her. I figured that no one would remember it the next day. I was wrong. The actual incident was pretty much accurately described by others here. After Doug removed his BC (with integrated weights), he tried to hook it on his foot, but missed, and it went to the bottom. I gave him my long hose, and someone went down after the BC, but could not drag it up, so Scott went down and put gas in it and brought it to Doug. As soon as Doug got ahold of the BC now filled with gas, he started to rise (despite the 4 people trying to hold him down), and I went after him as he still had my reg. I looked up and saw him find his own reg and he waved me off as my reg fell back to me and he floated out of sight. It was obvious to me that he had regained control, and when I got back down, Scott was making motions with his hand like he was going to shoot someone. The last time I talked to Joan was about a year ago. She and William bought a house together and were diving with the SoFL DIR group, which William started. The question is how many more times that Douggy will go diving while drunk before he kills his diving partners. > The question is how many more times that Douggy will go diving while > drunk before he kills his diving partners. The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, than you. > > The question is how many more times that Douggy will go diving while > > drunk before he kills his diving partners. > > The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, than > you. 'Cause youre not gay? >>The question is how many more times that Douggy will go diving while >>drunk before he kills his diving partners. > > The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, than > you. I'd dive with Doug anyplace anytime PERIOD haven't yet - but I WILL > > <hostlbuddha@postmaster.co.uk> wrote in message > > The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > haven't yet - but I WILL Well good for you. But then again, you should think about this . . Doug will dive with anyone. And apparently, so will you. > > > <hostlbuddha@postmaster.co.uk> wrote in message > > > The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, than [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And apparently, so will you. I wouldn't dive with anyone, but would dive with Doug. Pretty much anywhere, anytime. Dennis >>><hostlbuddha@postmaster.co.uk> wrote in message >>> The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>haven't yet - but I WILL > Well good for you. But then again, you should think about this . . Doug will > dive with anyone. your point > And apparently, so will you. and your point again? >>>><hostlbuddha@postmaster.co.uk> wrote in message >>>> The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, than [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > and your point again? Just her bi-annual menopause backflash. Later, when I say I always just respond to her, she'll scoff. >> > <hostlbuddha@postmaster.co.uk> wrote in message >> > The question is why they'd rather dive with me, in any condition, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > will > dive with anyone. Although I might make an exception in your case. But, as you well know, it's because I have the confidence and ability to handle virtually any situation I might encounter underwater (as on land); Which you obviously do not. And I'd be happy to dive with Joe. > And apparently, so will you. Which, apparently, puts him with the vast majority of Rec.scubans. > But, as you well know, it's because I have the confidence and ability to > handle virtually any situation I might encounter underwater (as on land); > > Which you obviously do not. I've been diving with chili. She does fine. > Which, apparently, puts him with the vast majority of Rec.scubans. Yeah, well most of us SOB divers aren't all that worried about who we dive with . . . within reason. Lee >> But, as you well know, it's because I have the confidence and ability to >>handle virtually any situation I might encounter underwater (as on land); [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Lee there isn't anyone here I would not dive with. But I think it awfully presumptuous for Chilly to question my diving skills because I choose to dive with Popeye. I think it would be a great experience - I'd like to dive with Chilly, whether Coz or Roatan. > there isn't anyone here I would not dive with. But I think it awfully > presumptuous for Chilly to question my diving skills because I choose to > dive with Popeye. I didn't question your diving skills. Sorry you took it that particular way. > I think it would be a great experience - I'd like to dive with Chilly, > whether Coz or Roatan. See? You'd dive with anyone. ;^) >>there isn't anyone here I would not dive with. But I think it awfully >>presumptuous for Chilly to question my diving skills because I choose to >>dive with Popeye. > > I didn't question your diving skills. Sorry you took it that particular > way. How was I to take it? >>I think it would be a great experience - I'd like to dive with Chilly, >>whether Coz or Roatan. > > See? You'd dive with anyone. ;^) No I wouldn't >> there isn't anyone here I would not dive with. But I think it awfully >> presumptuous for Chilly to question my diving skills because I choose to >> dive with Popeye. > > I didn't question your diving skills. Sorry you took it that particular > way. Probably due to the particular way you said it. >I think it would be a great experience - I'd like to dive with Chilly, >whether Coz or Roatan. I'd be more concerned about keeping up with her at the apres-dive party. That's when yer health might be endangered. JF "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton >>> But, as you well know, it's because I have the confidence and ability to >>> handle virtually any situation I might encounter underwater (as on [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > presumptuous for Chilly to question my diving skills because I choose to > dive with Popeye. After innuendo, all Chilly has are her presumtions. > Yeah, well most of us SOB divers aren't all that worried about who we dive > with . . . within reason. As long as they have a cute old lady, right? <evil-grin> >> Yeah, well most of us SOB divers aren't all that worried about who we >> dive >> with . . . within reason. > As long as they have a cute old lady, right? <evil-grin> I've already got one of my own. I don't need another. >> But, as you well know, it's because I have the confidence and ability to >> handle virtually any situation I might encounter underwater (as on land); [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Yeah, well most of us SOB divers aren't all that worried about who we dive >with . . . within reason. Good thing for the rest of us. JF "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton > I almost missed this thread. I can fill in a few details... > > The idea was hatched by Doug and was discussed among those present the > previous night at Joan's house, after a telephone call with a "mother > hen" (Salty) who chided us all to be careful. I believe the idea was hatched at the wonderful Thanksgiving dinner that we had at Denny's, actually. You, me, Doug and Mike B, I think. > Ask him about the time he took all his gear off and threw it away during a > drift dive in Florida... At 90 feet no less IIRC. We really should have shot a video. Remember the lightning lighting up the seabed? George > > Ask him about the time he took all his gear off and threw it away during a > > drift dive in Florida... > > At 90 feet no less IIRC. I didnt want to warp the guys mind too much, yet. > We really should have shot a video. Remember the lightning lighting up > the seabed? Would have been way more awesome if my camera had worked, and I wasnt so wickedly hung over, and Cliff wasnt bent... > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Any decent freshwater dives in Northern Cali? Lake Tahoe > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Still interested in more feedback, but I think Popeye's said all that's > needed. Yeah, pretty much. Scott and Doug were the first two to post replies to your message. Both are total head cases and, at various times, have achieved my rating of hugest a.sholes ever to inhabit this newsgroup. (You don't have to read far to see what an achievement that is.) Both need a serious beating for their constant abuse of this newsgroup as a personal political soapbox. It is, therefore, not without hesitation that I tell you that I consider both of them friends. I will tell you without hesitation that I have dove with both of them and would do so again. Doug's statements about himself are right on. He never hesitates to dive, yet he never gives anyone the least trouble about not diving for any reason. I felt a little bit queasy on the boat one day, nothing terrible, but the rain and the lightning and the ten foot waves were just rattling my bad ear a bit and making me a little unsettled in the gut, so I decided to sit it out. Not a peep of complaint from him. Same with Scott. Same trip, came up with flu-like symptoms. I was new and Doug runs fricken wacko deep and long profiles. He can't tell if his elbow hurts from diving because it hurts constantly from abuse with a ginsu knife and other wonderful adventures. But Scott is less wacko about dive profiles and more serious about good deco, so I did a dive with him to 70', nice short bottom time and a nice gradual blue water ascent. My symptoms disappeared as soon as I got to 70' and never reappeared. Had a nice time shooting a bag for the first time, too. I once went for a dive on a boat: got up at 4AM, paid $100, waited while they held the boat 5 minutes past departure for my tardy buddy, endured two hours out on rough seas, endured a dive briefing from...well, that's better left unsaid, set up all my gear, got half of it on, and had my buddy call the dive. I smiled, took off my gear and lay down in the sun. Another fellow tried to talk him into diving and I told him to lay off. I was on that boat that day because there was a GUE Tech 1 class in session and I wanted to see them in the water first hand. Not worth forcing someone to dive, though. All three of us would be happy to throw your buddy overboard. > I should also point out that I've got no issues doing a freshwater dive > with him -- without tides/currents I don't give a crap about my physical > condition, I know I can handle anything that comes up. > > Any decent freshwater dives in Northern Cali? Lake Tahoe? Fricken cold at depth, high altitude. I'd worry about my physical condition. In fact, I'm headed there tomorrow. I'm not taking dive gear. But that's because the owner of the house I'm renting posted a picture from one of his dives in Lake Tahoe. Nice big boulders covered in algae. At about -20degrees. No thanks. > > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. > > I wanted to do a sanity check to see if I'm being unreasonable. Who > > better to ask than divers? > > Still interested in more feedback, but I think Popeye's said all that's > > needed. > Yeah, pretty much. > Scott and Doug were the first two to post replies to your message. Both > are total head cases and, at various times, have achieved my rating of > hugest a.sholes ever to inhabit this newsgroup. (You don't have to read > far to see what an achievement that is.) Both need a serious beating for > their constant abuse of this newsgroup as a personal political soapbox. <wiping tear> Thats the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me here. And I thought no one cared. > Thanks for the candid reply. I haven't waffled with him, I've been > saying 'no' over and over and over and over, but he won't let it alone. Given that he's only been certified 2 years, he's still really only a novice, and hasn't necessarily experienced to understand that there's always going to be another dive tomorrow. As has been said here, the real mark of an experienced diver is to be able to thumb a dive unquestionably (and won't whine when his buddy does it)...I can agree with Popeye's statement that if you agree to go, you've wimped out... > I wanted to do a sanity check to see if I'm being unreasonable. No, you're not being unreasonable. By my read, you currently have three contra-indicators to going out diving in the near term: 1) Significantly out-of-shape and with hand injury that's yet to fully heal 2) Been dry too long (you're spot-on that you don't want Monterey to be your first dive back) 3) Left the sport under fairly bad circumstances, so you need to get back into things slowly, to regain comfort levels (a pool dive?). > I should also point out that I've got no issues doing a freshwater dive > with him -- without tides/currents I don't give a crap about my physical > condition, I know I can handle anything that comes up. I agree that a freshwater dive would be a much better candidate than a dive at Monterey. However, I don't know if I'd recommend a coldwater dive at tall...versus a nice warm water dive, there's an additional physical burden and work task loads because of the greater amount of thermal protection required to wear and manage... buoyancy control variability, heavier weightbelt, wetsuit squeeze, etc. At the very, very, very least, since one of your concerns is about being far too far out of shape, you should at least start walking daily to get the body firmed up, as its a prerequisite for getting back into the sport at all. Start now and perhaps you'll really be ready to consider a dive by Spring 2006. -hh todd ullum todd ullum todd ullum > Am I being over-cautious? What do you think? Probably... Go solo dive it before your friend gets in town and if you still don't feel comfortable after a few dives, tell him that you don't feel comfortable with it... Diving is like riding a bike... Even after being away from it for a few years, you'll pick it right back up without any help... If not, oh well, Darwin will protect you... > Question for the masses... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > about 50 hours of bottom time in the Montreal Olympic dive basin (50ft > training tank). Anyone can call a dive at any time for any reason, no questions asked. Go read Popeye's reply again. And whwen you are feeling like you want to get back in the water, lemme know. I'll be happy to dive with you. Best of luck. * > Question for the masses... really a reason to not go for it). > He's pushing more and more for me to "not be a pussy" etc, etc -- but one > of the first things a new diver learns is not to be pressured into [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > S. Hi, S -- I can tell you quite simply that I would NEVER dive with anyone who tells me "not to be a pussy". You can just imagine this person's reserve of intelligence, courage and coolness [as in an emergency]. If you give in to him then you ARE a whimp. redcat > Question for the masses... > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Am I being over-cautious? What do you think? Well, sounds like your first move should be a medical checkup by a doctor familiar with scuba medicals - I'm sure any dive shop can give you a couple of names. Probably a good idea to book a PADI scuba review or similar while you're in there too. > Question for the masses... > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > S. You f.cking pussy. Get in the f.cking water you sniveling homo. If I saw you cowering on a dive boat I'd take your snorkel and pistol whip your head with it. Never mind the "feel good faggits" in this group. Get in the water and dive mother f.cker.
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