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Scuba Forum / General / August 2005Awaiting my new Bio fins.
Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my Force Fins slipped into the water and disappeared in the current. I made a feeble attempt at retrieving the lost fin but the low air, one fin and the current in 50-60ft water quickly convinced me give up the fin to the Davey Jones locker. The boat threw out a float to help me get back to the boat in the current. So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to trying them out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had and will make packing for travelling a little more difficult. Adam > So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to trying them > out. They're much bigger and heavier than the old Force Fin Pro's I had and will make > packing for travelling a little more difficult. So, you should have ordered the exact same model as you previously had... That way, you wouldn't have to order another pair when you lose your next fix... <snip> s/fix/fin/g >> So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to > trying them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That way, you wouldn't have to order another pair when you lose your next > fix... It was a thought. But my Force Fins were over ten years old and their design had not changed. I always had problems with the strap, even after changing to their bungee--their strap system is not a good design. And I wanted to try the new technology. I use split fins for swimming and they work quite well. Adam > It was a thought. But my Force Fins were over ten years old and their design had not > changed. I always had problems with the strap, even after changing to their > bungee--their strap system is not a good design. And I wanted to try the new > technology. I use split fins for swimming and they work quite well. Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post. >> It was a thought. But my Force Fins were over ten years old and their > design had not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post. Do you mean ScubaPro Twin Jets split fins? They come in heavy-weight black and in light-weight, flexible blue. I considered the *blue* Twin Jets because my legs sink badly and I thought they may help with my trim, (and they're also light) but I heard more positive reports on the Bio Fins than the Twin Jets., and the "Jets" look even more bulky to pack. Adam > Do you mean ScubaPro Twin Jets split fins? They come in heavy-weight black and in > light-weight, flexible blue. > > I considered the *blue* Twin Jets because my legs sink badly and I thought they may > help with my trim, (and they're also light) but I heard more positive reports on the > Bio Fins than the Twin Jets., and the "Jets" look even more bulky to pack. 1) Are you packing, or diving? 2) Is your decision process dominated by packing, or diving? 3) If your decision process for diving is dominatated by packing, forget it all and rent at your destination, the rest is bullshit. > 3) If your decision process for diving is dominatated by packing, forget > it > all and rent at your destination, the rest is bullshit. A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a major factor in one's purchases. The last ScubaPro demo I attended, they showed off an ultralight travel reg that was only sold in Europe. As we're now approaching the ridiculous European weight limits, travel weight is increasingly becoming a concern. Force Fins, titanium, all that light sh.t, it'll be practically mandatory. > The last ScubaPro demo I attended, they showed off an ultralight travel reg > that was only sold in Europe. As we're now approaching the ridiculous > European weight limits, travel weight is increasingly becoming a concern. > Force Fins, titanium, all that light sh.t, it'll be practically mandatory. Was up at Oshkosh Friday and saw a Kevlar O2 tank about the same size as an AL80... Damn that thing was light... Not practical for divers, of course, but if you had the money to spend, it sure saves some weight for aircraft... > A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your > once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's > only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb > max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a > major factor in one's purchases. Still, dictating gear with travel needs must really suck. Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your belt. Jets are one reason I don't need a weight belt, they are part of the total dive system. For example, when I'n at Boynton, my scouts aren't just emergency devices, they are part of my "ballast". Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to see someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting problem. Curtis > Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your > belt. Jets are one reason I don't need a weight belt, they are part of > the total dive system. For example, when I'n at Boynton, my scouts aren't > just emergency devices, they are part of my "ballast". Whatever. Try diving without a weight belt around here sometime. Most of us get used to diving with weights, so an added one or two isn't a big deal. We wouldn't be concerned with an extra one or two in our luggage either, except that the airlines do care. > Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to see > someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting > problem. Most of us don't travel to places to dive silt. Truk Lagoon is a notable exception. >> Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to see >> someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting >> problem. > Most of us don't travel to places to dive silt. Truk Lagoon is a notable > exception. I've been "silted out" at West Palm by a hoard of cattle wearing splits. Curtis >>> Not to mention, don't really know what "bios" are, but have yet to >>> see someone use splits, even in proper trim, who didn't have a silting [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I've been "silted out" at West Palm by a hoard of cattle wearing > splits. That's what you get for diving with cattle. Do you really believe they wouldn't have silted had they been wearing real fins? >> I've been "silted out" at West Palm by a hoard of cattle wearing >> splits. > > That's what you get for diving with cattle. Hey, I dove with Greg..... > Do you really believe they wouldn't have silted had they been wearing real > fins? Possibly not as much, not all were in typical newbie position. Have seen a very experienced OW / learning cave diver, who normally left zero trail, leave a cloud with a set of splitties. Curtis > Whatever. Try diving without a weight belt around here sometime. Is it something I couldn't do in my 3 mil, in summer anyway? Curtis > Is it something I couldn't do in my 3 mil, in summer anyway? Not if you're happy floundering around on the surface. At depth, the water gets cold quickly any time of the year, rarely above 60 degrees at 60'. I'm cold in a 5mm FJ in 60 degrees at 60'. A 3mm would be downright frigid. >> Is it something I couldn't do in my 3 mil, in summer anyway? > > Not if you're happy floundering around on the surface. At depth, the > water gets cold quickly any time of the year, rarely above 60 degrees at > 60'. I'm cold in a 5mm FJ in 60 degrees at 60'. A 3mm would be downright > frigid. I comfortably do 2 hours in 69 deg water in a tee-shirt, used a half mil skin in 60 deg water quite comfortably..... Curtis "Magilla" wrote: > I comfortably do 2 hours in 69 deg water in a tee-shirt, used a half mil > skin in 60 deg water quite comfortably..... Then you might actually get by with a 3mil in late summer. You could certainly do the kelp and shallow reefs here in La Jolla. The canyon has been hovering between 50 and 55 recently though and that gets a little nippy. But the cold water is usually clearer, so we put up with it. > "Magilla" wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 50 and 55 recently though and that gets a little nippy. But the cold water is > usually clearer, so we put up with it. I used to dive the canyon with the UCSD dive club in a 3mm with hooded vest. It required a strenuous swim out to the canyon first which really heated me up and the thin suit made the swim easier. Then down at 90 ft things got chilly but we did not spend much time down there anyway. Adam >> I comfortably do 2 hours in 69 deg water in a tee-shirt, used a half >> mil skin in 60 deg water quite comfortably..... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > been hovering between 50 and 55 recently though and that gets a little > nippy. But the cold water is usually clearer, so we put up with it. Figured that's possible, have one of the "good" 3 mils that's supposed to be equivalent to a normal 5 mil. Curtis "Magilla" wrote: > Figured that's possible, have one of the "good" 3 mils that's supposed > to be equivalent to a normal 5 mil. Stop by any time and we'll help you test your theory. We know what a modified flutter is. ;-) >> Figured that's possible, have one of the "good" 3 mils that's >> supposed to be equivalent to a normal 5 mil. > > Stop by any time and we'll help you test your theory. As long as it's not just done to "prove" it can be done. I just have a fairly good tolerance to cooler water, can be comfortable where others get cold. I'm not immune to the laws of physics. :-) > We know what a modified flutter is. ;-) Anyone who's done at least a "Cavern" course should. :-) Curtis "Magilla" wrote: > As long as it's not just done to "prove" it can be done. I just have a > fairly good tolerance to cooler water, can be comfortable where others get > cold. I'm not immune to the laws of physics. :-) There's always stuff to see in the shallows. It's just that the octopus come out in force a little deeper. And the dinner table sized halibut like it down there as well. > There's always stuff to see in the shallows. It's just that the octopus > come out in force a little deeper. And the dinner table sized halibut > like it down there as well. Be something to try. Never worn anything past a 3 mil, just "graduated" to that to allow for some longer exposures. I'd probably try it in a situation where it didn't put myself or others at risk, and could easily bail if I was no longer enjoying the dive. What Adam described as a brief exposure to the cooler water would probably not bother me at all. And, I agree, always something to see in the shallows about anywhere. Curtis "Magilla" wrote: > I'd probably try it in a situation where it didn't > put myself or others at risk, and could easily bail if I was no longer > enjoying the dive. The canyon lends itself to this. The bottom makes a perfect deco curve, running very gradually to 30' over 400 yards,then dropping relatively quickly down to 100' and more. Typical dive on the canyon is to surface swim out, drop to 80', stay until cold or low on gas, then swim back to shore along the bottom. The canyon often has more to see than the shallows, but not always. To the south you come up on shallow rock reefs that are full of lobsters and schools of fish. To the north you get shrimp, squid, rays and leopard sharks, though it easier to see the sharks while snorkeling. "Magilla" wrote: > Never worn anything past a 3 mil, just "graduated" to that to allow for > some longer exposures. YMMV applies when it comes to degrees of thermal protection. For me, if the water's 80F, I'll put on a full 3mm (like I wore when we dived together last month) if I plan on being in for more than a half hour...otherwise, I'll get chills at around 45 minutes due to relatively low exertion levels, and I find that it helps me to lower air consumption. > ...I'd probably try it in a situation where it didn't > put myself or others at risk, and could easily bail if I was no longer > enjoying the dive. What Adam described as a brief exposure to the cooler > water would probably not bother me at all. Once you head north, the waters will get chilly enough such that you'll want quite a bit of 'rubber blubber'. For example, I got this NJ dive report from some yesterday's dive: "...scallop dive in 115-120'. Surface vis was beautiful with the reports of vis on the bottom a dark 15-20'. Bottom temp 46º. Second stop was the 120 wreck where it was a bit warmer at 52º and vis a brighter 20'+. A few bugs brought up as well as a beast of a monkfish..." YMMV, but for 52F at 120fsw, I'd definitely want a full 7mm Farmer John, hood and gloves. And for the 46F for the first dive at the same depth, it probably would have been bordering on most people's comfort tolerance limits for diving wet. -hh YMMV, but for 52F at 120fsw, I'd definitely want a full 7mm Farmer John, hood and gloves. And for the 46F for the first dive at the same depth, it probably would have been bordering on most people's comfort tolerance limits for diving wet. Probably would some, but as for trying high 50's briefly at depth with warmer shallow waters, I suspect I'd be OK. Low 50's would probably entice me to do drysuit. Fortunately, My home waters are usually much warmer. Curtis >> A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your once-a-year >> divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's only so much you can [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Curtis Just did a Google search on Jets, seems they're the old Scubapro black solid fins with some slots and old-style rubber strap. Ironically when I lost my fin someone on the boat lent me a pair of these for the final dive and I found them very stiff and uncomfortable. They hurt my feet and my lower legs. I'm used to soft, pliable fins that sit solid on the upper part of my feet after using Force Fins for over ten years. A heavy negatively buoyant fin will add a small amount weight (my guess a pound or so) but that pound will affect trim because it's sitting at the end of a lever. So you may end up having to move more weight higher on the torso to counteract the pound on the feet if your legs tend to sink. Adam > Just did a Google search on Jets, seems they're the old Scubapro black > solid fins with some slots and old-style rubber strap. Ironically when I > lost my fin someone on the boat lent me a pair of these for the final dive > and I found them very stiff and uncomfortable. They hurt my feet and my > lower legs. I'm used to soft, pliable fins that sit solid on the upper > part of my feet after using Force Fins for over ten years. Yep, that's what thet are, except I use SS spring traps. As far as feet, that's what the bootie (& sock) are for. For the lower leg, don't have fitness issues there, and can usually propell myself along with a minimal kick anyway, tending to favor the modified flutter. > A heavy negatively buoyant fin will add a small amount weight (my guess a > pound or so) but that pound will affect trim because it's sitting at the > end of a lever. So you may end up having to move more weight higher on the > torso to counteract the pound on the feet if your legs tend to sink. Funny, don't have that problem, but then again, rarely have my legs fully extended. :-) Curtis > Yep, that's what thet are, except I use SS spring traps. As far as > feet, that's what the bootie (& sock) are for. For the lower leg, don't > have fitness issues there, and can usually propell myself along with a > minimal kick anyway, tending to favor the modified flutter. Booties and flutters? Curtis, you're really scaring me. Maybe I will need that red suit after all: ". . . form-fitting design . . . minimizes gap exposure." > Booties and flutters? Curtis, you're really scaring me. Maybe I will > need that red suit after all: ". . . form-fitting design . . . minimizes > gap exposure." Yeah, booties, or whatever they're called. The damn rubber shoes you wear with open heeled fins. As far as modified flutter, I should have realized you weren'e advaced enough a diver to know what that is. :-) Curtis "\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : Still, dictating gear with travel needs must really suck. Not to those who actually travel. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > : Still, dictating gear with travel needs must really suck. > > Not to those who actually travel. You should read Al Wells reply. Besides, some of us have no need to travel beyond where we can easily drive, we already live in dive paradise. Curtis "\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : Besides, some of us have no need to travel beyond where we can easily :drive, we already live in dive paradise. To all those who enjoy local diving, wherever you live, good for you, absolutely fantastic. Enjoy your circumstances, not everyone shares them Just remember though, just because what is important to us travelling divers is not important to y'all, does not mean it is not important to those of us that do travel to dive. Right Scott? Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Just remember though, just because what is important to us travelling > divers is not important to y'all, does not mean it is not important to > those of us that do travel to dive. Wrong again. As Al said, we can travel with the gear we like. I took all mine to Roatan last year, no trouble. Whistler <whiNstOler@sSan.rPr.cAomM> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :Wrong again. As Al said, we can travel with the gear we like. I took :all mine to Roatan last year, no trouble. Who set your priorities? You or someone else? Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Who set your priorities? You or someone else? I packed all my standard DIR gear, with room and weight to spare. >> Who set your priorities? You or someone else? > > I packed all my standard DIR gear, with room and weight to spare. That's probably what really sets them off. Curtis "\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : You should read Al Wells reply. This one? *********** > A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your > once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's > only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb > max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a > major factor in one's purchases. I can't imagine it being a problem for a savvy recreational diver. We just went to Bonaire, and I took my XL Jets with stainless steel spring straps, a stainless steel backplate, a non weighted STA, my OW reg setup, a small tool box with tools and spare parts, a backup first and second stage, lights, a 3mm wetsuit, a skin, booties, bottom timer, compass, plus some clothing and shaving stuff, and I wasn't even close to the weight limit. cindy took all of that, a small canister light and several pounds of stuff that women seem to need and was under the limit. A few months ago we went cave diving in Mexico, with all of the gear we needed including canister lights, and did not go over the weight limit. All that we had to rent in Mexico was tanks. A friend down there loaned me an emergency O2 bottle to keep to keep in the truck. The domestic airlines allow 2 bags each, 50 lbs max each bag. They allow 70 lbs each bag on international flights. The island airlines that I have used allow only 30 kg for each person if you are carrying dive gear, otherwise it is 20 kg. We have not had any problem at all with this. *********** No offence to Al Wells, but I was invited to read his post. In a nutshell, what is true for Al is true for Al, but not necessarily anyone else. In fact, the spirit of his post is also true for me. In my dive travels, I have never failed to meet the 20 kg limit for checked luggage. In fact, when I went to Cayman Brac, I also met the 55 lb limit for all luggage and expect to meet it again later this year. But, I know how much you have to pay attention to every item of luggage in order to make weight. So to all you people who preach that jet fins are the best fins for absolutely everybody, justify it. By the way, to Adam, who started this thread, keep thinking for yourself, you'll do well. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > *********** > > No offence to Al Wells, but I was invited to read his post. In a > nutshell, what is true for Al is true for Al, but not necessarily > anyone else. In fact, the spirit of his post is also true for me. Ah yes, I forgot that Al was exempt from gravity. My bad. >> No offence to Al Wells, but I was invited to read his post. In a >> nutshell, what is true for Al is true for Al, but not necessarily >> anyone else. In fact, the spirit of his post is also true for me. > Ah yes, I forgot that Al was exempt from gravity. My bad. Properly weighted and trimmed, all of us are when underwater. A bunch of stuff while he was mad. Interesting, I don't see Dan mad often. Dan has at least a few points right. While there are certainly some that manage to travel with stainless plates, jetfins and all their gear, there's no way in the world that they are easy to pack, carry and get past the airlines, as a back inflation BC with no plate, like the ones Dive Rite makes. Curtis can probably comfortably walk away with a hundred pounds in each hand. Most would rather not. Dan is also correct about trim. Curtis chose how he would arrange to have good trim. He did it with relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, which, when moved up and down, change trim considerably. I dive with Curtis and I can testify that he is correctly trimmed. I do it with a stainless plate and a single Compact 80 or HP 100 plus much lighter Mares full foot fins. I didn't have much trouble finding correct trim either. There's more than one way to skin this particular cat and, while Curtis's preferences work fine for him, that does not mean that choices by others won't work as well for them. The only fins I hate worst than Jet Fins are Force Fins. I tried Jet Fins when they first came out and I've tried them since. They just don't work for me. Everything about them feels and acts wrong for me. They're 40 year old technology which, while they work as well as they ever did, do not work nearly as well for me as my full foot Mares Power Quatros or my full foot Mares TRE fins. Both are noticeably lighter than the Jet Fins and the TREs pack smaller as well. This is a silly argument. I don't think Curtis intended to tell everybody that the way he dives is the only way to dive. That's not his style. Like most of us, he does share his preferences and, like most of us, sometimes his bias creeps in. Big deal. He's human, even if Jayna did nickname him Magilla. Lee > A bunch of stuff while he was mad. Interesting, I don't see Dan mad often. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > makes. Curtis can probably comfortably walk away with a hundred pounds in > each hand. Most would rather not. Apparently you missed the part where both Al and I said that all the standard gear can be transported within the weight limits. I have one of Scott's extra large BPs and a Halcyon Pro 6 light. Airlines have never blinked at the weight, just the fact that the dive light looks like a homemade bomb. > Dan is also correct about trim. Curtis chose how he would arrange to have > good trim. He did it with relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, which, when > moved up and down, change trim considerably. I dive with Curtis and I can > testify that he is correctly trimmed. Bah, you can trim any of it out, it's just a matter of what's the most efficient. >> A bunch of stuff while he was mad. Interesting, I don't see Dan mad >> often. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > blinked at the weight, just the fact that the dive light looks like a > homemade bomb. Apparently you missed the words "as easy to pack, carry . . . " Further, your experience does not mean that everybody's will be the same. Personally, I've never had a problem with weight restrictions at all, but that does not mean that I've been in compliance with them. When I travel for a couple of weeks at a time, I not only take a lot of clothes, but a lot of gear and backups. I am 00% certain that, on some trips, I have exceeded today's limits. Getting away with it is not the same as complying. While you may be willing to sacrifice someplace else in order to have your steel plate and heavy fins, others chose differently. Personally, the first change I'd make is to use my aluminum plate instead of a steel one. >> Dan is also correct about trim. Curtis chose how he would arrange to >> have good trim. He did it with relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bah, you can trim any of it out, it's just a matter of what's the most > efficient. Trim is trim. There is no more or less efficient when you are in trim unless, of course, you add so much crap that you significantly increase drag. There are people in this group that complicate their gear way beyond what I consider to be efficient, all in the name of trim. I'm not one of them. I guarantee you that I, in my preferred configuration, with my lighter fins, am at least as streamlined as you are in your preferred configuration, with your Jet Fins. Sight unseen, I'd bet a beer I'm more streamlined. I'll bet another beer that my kit is no more complicated than yours. Care to take a chance? The point of all of this is not that you and Curtis are wrong in your choices. The point is, the fact that you, Curtis, Al and I chose one thing to meet our needs does not mean that Dan and others are wrong for making other choices. Like I said, there is more than one say to skin this particular cat. Lee > The point of all of this is not that you and Curtis are wrong in your > choices. The point is, the fact that you, Curtis, Al and I chose one > thing to meet our needs does not mean that Dan and others are wrong for > making other choices. Like I said, there is more than one say to skin > this particular cat. And I'll make the further point that to many of us (a majority of divers on the liveaboards I've done), a still or video camera, housing, and strobes/lights, is a lot more important for reef diving than a cannister light or a rigid backplate. Usually that leaves me one 50-70 lb. bag for all my clothes and gear. It can be done. I managed to bring a rebreather and a full open-circuit system and a camera to the Galapagos with violating any weight restrictions, but that was only because the boat was able to supply tanks and absorbent and it still took me several days to ponder how to pack it right. On the way back, it somehow gained 6 lbs. and the airline at first refused to take one bag even after I proferred the $100 overweight charge, claiming an "embargo" on overweight bags out of Ecuador. Certainly more than one way to skin it. I thought we dispensed of all this DIR nonsense years ago when we kicked MHK out? > Certainly more than one way to skin it. I thought we dispensed of all > this DIR nonsense years ago when we kicked MHK out? We did not kick HMK out. We simply made it a bit warm for his preferences. Lee >>Certainly more than one way to skin it. I thought we dispensed of all >>this DIR nonsense years ago when we kicked MHK out? > > We did not kick HMK out. We simply made it a bit warm for his preferences. That is, getting over Fundamentalisms ;-) Greets, Matthias > Trim is trim. There is no more or less efficient when you are in trim > unless, of course, you add so much crap that you significantly increase > drag. Bzzt. Sorry, wrong answer. > > Trim is trim. There is no more or less efficient when you are in trim > > unless, of course, you add so much crap that you significantly increase > > drag. > Bzzt. Sorry, wrong answer. Now, be nice... > Now, be nice... Since when? > Apparently you missed the part where both Al and I said that all the > standard gear can be transported within the weight limits. I have one of > Scott's extra large BPs and a Halcyon Pro 6 light. Airlines have never > blinked at the weight, just the fact that the dive light looks like a > homemade bomb. I caught it. > Bah, you can trim any of it out, it's just a matter of what's the most > efficient. Exactly. Curtis > A bunch of stuff while he was mad. Interesting, I don't see Dan mad often. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Lee The packing and weight issue becomes even more important if you go on a hybrid vacation with lots of land activity. If I go for a pure dive destination I accept lugging around lots of gear, but if two thirds of the time I'm traveling on land the packing of dive gear becomes more of an issue. And it's nice to have deal with rental gear. Adam > The packing and weight issue becomes even more important if you go on a hybrid > vacation with lots of land activity. <crossposting-snipped> It can make for heavy baggage... I went on a dive and snow skiing vacation last year and I had to shuffle various things around because the airlines couldn't seem to understand that a 70-lb bag plus a 30-lb one is the same as two 50-lb ones... There was three of us, but I was the only one that was hoping to do some diving, so I could shuffle some of the dive gear off to Grace's and Kaitlyn's bags... Of course, this meant that now every bag had suspicious items in them and the fuckin' TSA inspected every damn bag... >> The packing and weight issue becomes even more important if you go on a > hybrid >> vacation with lots of land activity. > > <crossposting-snipped> from http://tgos.org/newbie/rules.html If a post is of interest for more than one group or fits into more than one group, you can crosspost it to more than one group. While crossposting got a bad reputation through crossposted spam, it saves disc space and bandwidth compared to sending the same message multiple times to different Newsgroups. > A bunch of stuff while he was mad. Interesting, I don't see Dan mad > often. If that got him mad, he's damn thin skinned. "Not once you actually learn to dive" stands up all by itself. If you cannot figure out how to trim out a couple extra pounds on your feet that could be removed from your belt, then you have more to learn about trim. If he took that as personal or an insult, then he does not "know" me after all these years. > Dan has at least a few points right. While there are certainly some that > manage to travel with stainless plates, jetfins and all their gear, > there's no way in the world that they are easy to pack, carry and get past > the airlines, as a back inflation BC with no plate, like the ones Dive > Rite makes. I use an ALBP, a tad lighter, works for me. Curtis can probably comfortably walk away with a hundred pounds in > each hand. Most would rather not. My idea of balance is walking with a set of double AL80s in each hand, like suitcases, walking to and from a boat or site. > Curtis chose how he would arrange to have good trim. He did it with > relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, which, when moved up and down, change > trim considerably. I dive with Curtis and I can testify that he is > correctly trimmed. Thanks. It is expected of a cave diver. So are Jet Fins. ;-) Wonder if Dan Volker has trouble with trim using freediving fins. (I SERIOUSLY doubt it.) > This is a silly argument. I don't think Curtis intended to tell everybody > that the way he dives is the only way to dive. That's not his style. Not at all. I merely stand by my statement above. Curtis Curtis chose how he would arrange to have > good trim. He did it with relatively heavy Jet Fins and twins, which, > when moved up and down, change trim considerably. Not quite Lee, just picked up this detail. The doubles, unlike singles, don't get shifted all that much, pretty much get set top of top band at the point of the top of the "flat". My yellow set is down 1/4" lower than the white set only because the whites have 2 1/2" bands, and the yellows 2" bands, so set the tanks the same (bolts are in same position on both sets). Wing is the same size as the tanks, so minor shifts affect valve position & streamlining, but not that much trim. Curtis "\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your :belt. Lighter fins mean it is less likely that you will settle in the head up, feet down position, meaning less effort while diving. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > : Lighter fins means somewhere else you have to add weight, like your > :belt. > > Lighter fins mean it is less likely that you will settle in the head > up, feet down position, meaning less effort while diving. Not once you actually learn how to dive. Curtis "\"Magilla\"" <cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : Not once you actually learn how to dive. Explain it hotshot. Explain how heavier fins make it diving easier once you actually know how to dive. Be sure to emphasize the part where what works best for you mus automatically work for every other dive in every conceivable situation. As a bonus, please explain how those who prefer lighter fins don't really know how to dive. Go ahead hotshot, explain it. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. > Go ahead hotshot, explain it. You really shouldn't do the name calling, I suspect I'm a "tad" more experienced than you are overall in my lesser number of years diving. This ain't a bigger dick contest, I also recognize & respect you've been around the block a few times too, and have done things I have not. Curtis > A piece of advice that would normally ring true, especially for your > once-a-year divers. But frequent travelers run into a dilemma. There's > only so much you can take given the latest move of most airlines to 50 lb > max bags. Choosing lighter gear because it packs lighter now becomes a > major factor in one's purchases. I can't imagine it being a problem for a savvy recreational diver. We just went to Bonaire, and I took my XL Jets with stainless steel spring straps, a stainless steel backplate, a non weighted STA, my OW reg setup, a small tool box with tools and spare parts, a backup first and second stage, lights, a 3mm wetsuit, a skin, booties, bottom timer, compass, plus some clothing and shaving stuff, and I wasn't even close to the weight limit. cindy took all of that, a small canister light and several pounds of stuff that women seem to need and was under the limit. A few months ago we went cave diving in Mexico, with all of the gear we needed including canister lights, and did not go over the weight limit. All that we had to rent in Mexico was tanks. A friend down there loaned me an emergency O2 bottle to keep to keep in the truck. The domestic airlines allow 2 bags each, 50 lbs max each bag. They allow 70 lbs each bag on international flights. The island airlines that I have used allow only 30 kg for each person if you are carrying dive gear, otherwise it is 20 kg. We have not had any problem at all with this. > The domestic airlines allow 2 bags each, 50 lbs max each bag. They allow > 70 lbs each bag on international flights. The island airlines that I > have used allow only 30 kg for each person if you are carrying dive > gear, otherwise it is 20 kg. We have not had any problem at all with > this. I take it that you have no camera? > I take it that you have no camera? I forgot about the camera - Cindy carries an Olympus camera and housing, but no external strobes and such. This is probably much lighter than your video equipment. >> Do you mean ScubaPro Twin Jets split fins? They come in heavy-weight black >and in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >1) Are you packing, or diving? The problem for some of us is that good diving means travel (and packing) to get to the dives. Some of you have great diving at your doors. The rest of us get on a plane. >2) Is your decision process dominated by packing, or diving? Finding the balance. Jets are great, probably even the best for drysuit diving, but I find mine a tad heavy for warm water in a 3/2 or a skin. They also add perhaps a pound or more to the weight of my baggage which might be problematic as far as the airline rules are concerned. It's the same with some freediving fins being too long for easy packing. >3) If your decision process for diving is dominatated by packing, forget it >all and rent at your destination, the rest is bullshit. I'd rather find all the kit that works best for me while accommodating the weight and dimensional restrictions of travel rather than spoiling great dive trips with inferior rental gear. Isn't that why you came up with your dogbone ss plate? JF "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton > Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post. Talk about a wasted post.....isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? As for the Bio-Fins: they are excellent! I bought the first pair in NJ and that was before any dealer was selling them. Bought them direct from Apollo. As for the weight or the ease of packing them: I have no experience packing them for airline flights since all of the diving that I do is 20 miles from my front door....offshore NJ. > > Try a set of Jets before you spend another dime, or waste another post. > > Talk about a wasted post.....isn't that like the pot calling the kettle > black? No, actually, Bio-fins are a joke that isnt funny. > > So today I ordered new yellow Apollo Bio Fins and am looking forward to > trying them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That way, you wouldn't have to order another pair when you lose your next > fix... But what if he lsot both left fins? ;-) Pick a f.cking group and post to it. Believe it or not, your stupid fins are just not worth read about twice. BTW you have purchased the ultimate NEWBIE marker, and experienced divers everywhere will know to stay clear of you. BILE-FINS are the hallmark of the inexperienced, as they, and only they, are sufficiently impressed with the irrelevant characteristics to spend THREE TIMES the amount necessary. In my travels I have NEVER, EVER seen a competent diver wearing bio fins. Not in (CZM,BZE,GCM,DPS,NA > Pick a f.cking group and post to it. > Believe it or not, your stupid fins are just not worth read about twice. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In my travels I have NEVER, EVER seen a competent diver wearing bio fins. > Not in (CZM,BZE,GCM,DPS,NA In fairness, Bullshark, it is at least a divig related thread. Now perhaps the webtv whiners will shut up. ;-) Dennis > In fairness, Bullshark, it is at least a diving related thread. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1939394.stm I dont know whether to admire the guy, or think he is a nut > Now perhaps the webtv whiners will shut up. ;-) I shut them up with filters, whether they like it or not. > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1939394.stm > > I dont know whether to admire the guy, or think he is a nut Wow. Admire. >> Now perhaps the webtv whiners will shut up. ;-) > > I shut them up with filters, whether they like it or not. Hardly shuts them up, but if a web-tv'er whines in the woods, and no one else is there, do they make noise? Curtis > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1939394.stm > > I dont know whether to admire the guy, or think he is a nut > Wow. Admire. Balls the size of a MkV hat... > > I shut them up with filters, whether they like it or not. > > Hardly shuts them up, but if a web-tv'er whines in the woods, and no one > else is there, do they make noise? Yes, but no one cares. >> Hardly shuts them up, but if a web-tv'er whines in the woods, and no > one >> else is there, do they make noise? > > Yes, but no one cares. Oops, wrong answer. They would make a sound, but noise implies they are making an annoying sound....... ;-) Curtis > > In fairness, Bullshark, it is at least a diving related thread. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1939394.stm > > I dont know whether to admire the guy, or think he is a nut How abotu we admire the chap, and think he's a nut? ;-) > > Now perhaps the webtv whiners will shut up. ;-) > > I shut them up with filters, whether they like it or not. Dennis > Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my Force Fins > slipped into the water and disappeared in the current. I made a feeble attempt at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Adam I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking won't cure. -- An American friend of mine - living in Canada - says that in the US, greed is acceptable but envy is a sin. In Canada it is just the opposite. I would suggest that envy is our national sport. And no one inspires more envy in us than our southern neighbor. It is a shame, because any legitimate gripes we may have about America get lost in a sea of childish wolf-crying. >> Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my > Force Fins [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking > won't cure. Keyboard, dammit! Please give warning in the future. LD. >> Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my > Force Fins [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking > won't cure. I tried the haircut and kick myself all the time, and nothing works. Adam >> Getting back into the boat on my second last dive in Catalina, one of my > Force Fins [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you that a haircut and an asskicking > won't cure. By the way I sent the Bio-fins back and am going back to my Force Fin Pro, which is what I'm used to. The Bio-Fin was pinching my toes. Adam |
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