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Scuba Forum / General / July 2005Contentious topic... PADI courses..
OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. and I've got a few questions. Do many dive operators actually give a sh.t that I'm only certified to 60 feet on this card? About half the dives I've been on have been deeper than that with a few close to double that depth. I've been on night dives and I've been on wreck dives. Have I been lucky? Or will I show up one day to have a provider say "sorry no dive for you"? I certainly see why people speak disparagingly about PADI, in theory to do what I've already done on more than one occasion I should have had two additional PADI certs ..which means two additional classes. The money which is no small consideration, is nothing compared to the investment in time this would take.. While I'm asking, is there anywhere I can get a sense of what is included in the rest of the PADI courses? The next thing I would be looking at if I follow the padi path is Advanced Open Water .. they don't seem to give any real description of the options.. some look like a complete waste of time. What the heck is "Boat Diver"? It has to be different than diving from a boat .. doesn't it? And "FISH Identification"? C'mon.. sure it's interesting but as part of a dive Cert? Should I care about any of this or should I just find some guy who knows what he's doing and pay him to teach me what I need to know to do what I want? Is there a book? Sorry for venting.. > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. Find some locals and dive. http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/trimix.html read everything here. > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > night dives and I've been on wreck dives. Have I been lucky? Or will > I show up one day to have a provider say "sorry no dive for you"? Most Dive ops won't care - Darwin might. I've been on a few boats that they asked to see a card and log book. a few pieces of advice 1. go Dive, work on your bouyancy. 2. take that AOW after you get a few more dives and take the rescue course after that, the rest is bogus. 3. "specialty" courses are for the 'I got more money than brains" croud. 4. NEVER EVER under any circumtances listen a Damn thing Scott tells you. Even when he's right, he's still stupid. >OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. >and I've got a few questions. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >night dives and I've been on wreck dives. Have I been lucky? Or will >I show up one day to have a provider say "sorry no dive for you"? Is your money good? All most operators care about is that you have a card and a valid credit card. On some really "advanced" dive they may give you grief, but only the paranoid will keep you from going. >I certainly see why people speak disparagingly about PADI, in theory to >do what I've already done on more than one occasion I should have had >two additional PADI certs ..which means two additional classes. The >money which is no small consideration, is nothing compared to the >investment in time this would take.. Advanced is worth it, but not something you need to take right now. It will aleviate the "are you okay to make this dive" question. >While I'm asking, is there anywhere I can get a sense of what is >included in the rest of the PADI courses? The next thing I would be >looking at if I follow the padi path is Advanced Open Water .. they >don't seem to give any real description of the options.. some look >like a complete waste of time. I teach Navigation, Deep and Night, plus two others that my students find "interesting" at the time. >What the heck is "Boat Diver"? It has to be different than diving >from a boat .. doesn't it? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Sorry for venting..  Signaturedillon Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way of life. And a damn fine one, at that. > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Sorry for venting.. Typically in Asia, no-one will care about depth - they won't let you do a night dive unless you are AOW though (ignoring the fact AOW may not include them anyway - go figure). Otherwise fine. > Do many dive operators actually give a sh.t that I'm only certified > to 60 feet on this card? About half the dives I've been on have been > deeper than that with a few close to double that depth. I've been on > night dives and I've been on wreck dives. Have I been lucky? Or will > I show up one day to have a provider say "sorry no dive for you"? Some operators are very picky about what certifications you have and some only want to know that you have a valid Visa card. A good operator will check your c-cards, but rely more on your experience to determine what dives they will allow you to make. > I certainly see why people speak disparagingly about PADI, in theory to > do what I've already done on more than one occasion I should have had > two additional PADI certs ..which means two additional classes. The > money which is no small consideration, is nothing compared to the > investment in time this would take.. PADI does not tedermine which dives you can make, nor does any other agency. They only provide the outlines for training and make recommendations. You, as the diver and the dive operator are expected to use common sense to evaluate your capabilities. Some classes are offered purely to enhance your enjoyment underwater, some are offered to enhance your safety, still others seem to be purly for the "badge value" and to enhace the local dive shop's (and agency's) bottom line. You have to make the value judgement. Will your enhanced enjoyment of a specific underwater activity (photography, perhaps) be worth the cost of learning how to do it right? Is your life worth enough to justify the cost of learning how to penetrate a wreck properly? What is it worth to you to "look cool" with specialty chevrons stitched up and down both arms of your dive jacket? > While I'm asking, is there anywhere I can get a sense of what is > included in the rest of the PADI courses? The next thing I would be > looking at if I follow the padi path is Advanced Open Water .. they > don't seem to give any real description of the options.. some look > like a complete waste of time. You do not necessarily have to follow the "PADI path." You can switch from one agency to another at any time. The outlines of the various courses is about the same, however, with most of the agencies. Advanced Open Water is a series of a number of dives (usually 5) in different specialty areas, under the supervision of an instructor. AOW does have some educational and experiential value; you will learn a few things about some common specialty areas of diving that would otherwise take you a lot more dives to learn on your own. You also have the advantage of having an instructor there to correct your mistakes and help you stay out of trouble while you are learning new techniques. AOW certification is frequently required by operators before they will allow you to ayn but the most basic dives. > What the heck is "Boat Diver"? It has to be different than diving > from a boat .. doesn't it? No, that's what it is. This is one specialty that is a waste of time, unless you want the chevron. You will get the equivalent instruction if you pay attention to the captain of a good boat giving you the on-board pre-dive briefing. > And "FISH Identification"? C'mon.. sure it's interesting but as > part of a dive Cert? Actually, Fish identification can be a good class. > Should I care about any of this or should I just find some guy who > knows what he's doing and pay him to teach me what I need to know to > do what I want? Absolutely find someone who knows what he is doing. The basic criterion for finding a specialty instructor should be that the instructor is one who actually does the dives. For example, if you want to learn wreck diving do not hire a PADI instructor who just happens to be certified to teach that specialty, but only dives with students at the local quarry. Hire the instructor who is out diving and exploring shipwrecks every weekend. > Is there a book? There is always a book. I have a library of well over a thousand volums on various aspects of diving and boating. > Sorry for venting.. De nada. Safe diving, Cpt. Dale > Some operators are very picky about what certifications you have and some > only want to know that you have a valid Visa card. A good operator will > check your c-cards, but rely more on your experience to determine what > dives they will allow you to make. He means what dive sites they will take you to. You get to decide what dives you can do, but nobody wants to stop what they are doing to recover a body. > PADI does not tedermine which dives you can make, nor does any other > agency. They only provide the outlines for training and make > recommendations. You, as the diver and the dive operator are expected to > use common sense to evaluate your capabilities. Forget the dive operator. You, as a diver, are expected to use common sense to evalutate your capabilities. Dive operators only get to decide whether they wish to risk their insurance by taking you someplace they're not comfortable you belong. > Some classes are offered purely to enhance your enjoyment underwater, some > are offered to enhance your safety, still others seem to be purly for the > "badge value" and to enhace the local dive shop's (and agency's) bottom > line. About as accurate a statement as I've seen in this group. > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. > > Do many dive operators actually give a sh.t that I'm only certified > to 60 feet on this card? Cannot remember the last boat that actually wanted to see my cert card, although a couple expect you to sign in with your cert level. I remember one in the Keys a few years back that asked when I was considering going out with them, but they were so arrogant about mine I went to their competitor. Only places I know always want the card are state parks, and they have only two distinctions.......OW & Overhead. Curtis > Cannot remember the last boat that actually wanted to see my cert card, I always ask for a c-card or log book, but I have to admit that I have never had a non-certified diver try to pass himself off as certified. Actually, I am more interested in the diver's experience than his c-cards. I will adjust the dive to the skill levels of the divers I have on board. Safe diving, Cpt. Dale > I always ask for a c-card or log book, but I have to admit that I have > never had a non-certified diver try to pass himself off as certified. > Actually, I am more interested in the diver's experience than his c-cards. > I will adjust the dive to the skill levels of the divers I have on board. That's pretty cool that you can adjust a dive like that. What, do you slow down the current? > That's pretty cool that you can adjust a dive like that. What, do you > slow down the current? No, I don't slow down the current, but I do select the dive site. I get an idea of the skill levels of the divers who will be on the boat ahead of time and select the site based on their skill levels. Much the same thing that any operator would do who doesn't cater to only tourist divers. Safe diving, Cpt. Dale > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and select the site based on their skill levels. Much the same thing that > any operator would do who doesn't cater to only tourist divers. And you are not the only one, every descent guide/instructor would do the same. When i worked in Sharm i was more interested in people experience than what certification card they had. But if were only open water divers, the could not go deeper than 18 meter. for 1 simple reason, if anything would go wrong while i was the guide and i had permitted them to dive deeper, padi would not cover me with the insurance. Off cource people could still dive deeper, but i has instructed them in not going deeper than they were certified to do. SignatureSøren Reinke Chief Technology Officer www.Xray-Mag.com Your free online dive magazine Download it in PDF, just like a real magazine When i worked in Sharm i was more interested in people experience than what certification card they had. But if were only open water divers, the could not go deeper than 18 meter. for 1 simple reason, if anything would go wrong while i was the guide and i had permitted them to dive deeper, padi would not cover me with the insurance. Off cource people could still dive deeper, but i has instructed them in not going deeper than they were certified to do. How deep would you let them go with an Advanced or higher certification? Lee >> I always ask for a c-card or log book, but I have to admit that I have >> never had a non-certified diver try to pass himself off as certified. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >That's pretty cool that you can adjust a dive like that. What, do you slow >down the current? No silly, you drop the anchor, make sure it's got a good bite, then use the winch to raise the bottom to make it a shallower dive. Signaturedillon Copyright 2005, Dillon Pyron. All rights reservered reproduction prohibited with written consent. Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way of life. And a damn fine one, at that. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's pretty cool that you can adjust a dive like that. What, do you slow > down the current? Actually, that's a problem with charter boats - they dive to the lowest common denominator. Lynn would not drop you on PitStop where the current is almost always screaming (unless I vouched for you), but she'd drop me there, solo, and drop everyone else on the boat on the main reef. Some boats will split their drops, many won't. Since Dale doesn't know me, I assume he'd put me in with the touristas. If he had confidence in the skills of the entire group, I assume he'd be happy to make more challenging drops. The best example of this is the Keys: there is some really great diving there, but it's damned near impossible to get there and few divers have seen it because the boats have to keep the tourists in clear, shallow, no-current waters. > Cannot remember the last boat that actually wanted to see my cert card, > although a couple expect you to sign in with your cert level. I remember > one in the Keys a few years back that asked when I was considering going > out with them, but they were so arrogant about mine I went to their > competitor. Our local boats aren't too big on checking cards either, usually just requiring a sign in (though the San Diego boats I've been on, Blue Escape and Horizon, want to see the card). But I'm almost always asked for my card when I travel (one exception was Caballito del Caribe of Cozumel which didn't even make me sign any stinkin' waivers). Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with Greg. She didn't card you? >> Cannot remember the last boat that actually wanted to see my cert card, >> although a couple expect you to sign in with your cert level. I remember [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with Greg. >She didn't card you? When I apologized to Lynn for forgetting my card the first time I went out on her boat her answer was "You don't need a card. You've got the teeshirt." ( I was wearing a tee I'd bought in a Coz diveshop.) It might have helped that I was standing beside Lee at the time, or perhaps she saw me drive in with ESG, who was the stern ornament on the boat. JF . "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton > When I apologized to Lynn for forgetting my card the first time I went > out on her boat her answer was "You don't need a card. You've got the > teeshirt." ( I was wearing a tee I'd bought in a Coz diveshop.) It > might have helped that I was standing beside Lee at the time, or > perhaps she saw me drive in with ESG, who was the stern ornament on > the boat. She was just being kind. I vouched for you. Mike may have too. Lee >> When I apologized to Lynn for forgetting my card the first time I went >> out on her boat her answer was "You don't need a card. You've got the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >She was just being kind. I vouched for you. Mike may have too. But she pulled off the line with such panache. JF "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton > > Cannot remember the last boat that actually wanted to see my cert card, > > although a couple expect you to sign in with your cert level. I remember [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > when I travel (one exception was Caballito del Caribe of Cozumel which > didn't even make me sign any stinkin' waivers). I believe all San Diego boats insist in seeing a card. > Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with Greg. > She didn't card you? > Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with Greg. > She didn't card you? If someone she knew had vouched for you, it would have carried more weight than a card. Next time, pre-arrange for someone to speak well of you... >> Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with >> Greg. She didn't card you? > > If someone she knew had vouched for you, it would have carried more weight > than a card. Next time, pre-arrange for someone to speak well of you... That about says it. My first dive on her boat was with Dan, Ana, & Mike on board. Curtis >> Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with >> Greg. She didn't card you? > > If someone she knew had vouched for you, it would have carried more weight > than a card. Next time, pre-arrange for someone to speak well of you... I had hoped Lee would have done that, since he arranged the whole shebang. Lynn did pay more attention to my other "C" card, I'll admit. Next time we'll have to call it "Advanced Dive with Greg" so there's no question. >>> Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with >>> Greg. She didn't card you? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I had hoped Lee would have done that, since he arranged the whole shebang. > Lynn did pay more attention to my other "C" card, I'll admit. I think that was the first time we had met. I suspect I knew enough about your diving by then to have vouched for you, if I needed to, for the dives we usually do with Lynn. I probably would not have for some of the more advanced diving in the area. > Next time we'll have to call it "Advanced Dive with Greg" so there's no > question. Next time you'll have to call it "Advanced Dive with Greg that is organized by Greg." It was fun, and worth the effort, but coordinating everything was a major pain the butt. Lee > Next time you'll have to call it "Advanced Dive with Greg that is > organized by Greg." It was fun, and worth the effort, but coordinating > everything was a major pain the butt. What if we change the name to Dive with Lee? > What if we change the name to Dive with Lee? Well, does sound better when we can depend on him showing up for it. Curtis ""Magilla"" wrote in message news:bbYFe.40894$5N3.38900@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Well, does sound better when we can depend on him showing up for it. Unlike *some* people who missed the chance to step on a manatee... > Unlike *some* people who missed the chance to step on a manatee... I think he just didn't trust us.......guess he doesn't know he's too damn big to shove down the restriction at either place we went.....in one piece, anyways. <evil grin> Curtis ""Magilla"" wrote in message news:7qYFe.40931$5N3.25078@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > I think he just didn't trust us.......guess he doesn't know he's too > damn big to shove down the restriction at either place we went.....in one > piece, anyways. <evil grin> Well, there *was* that talk about us having some BBQed lawyer... Speaking of our dive trip... How much you figure that rock at Blue Springs weighs? Think we could get a rope around it and move it with a few lift bags? Maybe without it there, we could finally see what was past there... >> Next time you'll have to call it "Advanced Dive with Greg that is >> organized by Greg." It was fun, and worth the effort, but coordinating >> everything was a major pain the butt. > > What if we change the name to Dive with Lee? Hmmm, maybe, but I still like "Advanced Dive with Greg that is organized by Greg" better. Lee > Next time you'll have to call it "Advanced Dive with Greg that is organized > by Greg." ahahahahaha Actually, all that laughter aside, one of my disappointments on the trip, was the night we went out for crab. You had to leave early because of the person you were giving a ride. I'd been looking forward to you being all loosened up . . and just when you were getting there . . .it was buddy's bedtime. > It was fun, and worth the effort, but coordinating everything was > a major pain the butt. :^) I really, really appreciated the effort. Thanks again. >> Seems to me that Lynn wanted to see my C-card as well on the Dive with >> Greg. She didn't card you? > If someone she knew had vouched for you, it would have carried more weight > than a card. Next time, pre-arrange for someone to speak well of you... Who, in their right mind, would speak well of an attorney? Lee > Who, in their right mind, would speak well of an attorney? Um, O.J. Simpson & Michael Jackson? Curtis > > Who, in their right mind, would speak well of an attorney? > > Um, O.J. Simpson & Michael Jackson? So you consider Michael Jackson to have his mind right? Dennis > Curtis >> Who, in their right mind, would speak well of an attorney? > > Um, O.J. Simpson & Michael Jackson? I said "in their right mind." Lee > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lee Ya got a point there. I'd probably hold the card, call PADI to confirm, make him sign the release in triplicate, and read him the Miranda poem. ""Magilla"" wrote > Cannot remember the last boat that actually wanted to see my cert card, > although a couple expect you to sign in with your cert level. Blackbeards liveaboards used to take and keep them until you returned safely to shore. Leo and Lynn, out of Boynton Beach, saw mine the first couple of times I dove with them. They haven't asked in a long time. The folks at Paradise Springs wanted to see ours when we dove there with you. Dave darned near didn't get to dive because he left his home. The operator I called in Puerto Rico wanted one, which is why I never got to dive there. I didn't expect to have to kill a week before testifying down there. I don't make that mistake any more. > I remember one in the Keys a few years back that asked when I was > considering going out with them, but they were so arrogant about mine I > went to their competitor. I enjoy arrogant people. I can clearly reacall being asked, in the Keys, what my certification level was. I responded "Scuba." They said, I know, but what level. I responded "Scuba." They looked at me like a moron and tried to explain they needed to know whether I was certified for Open Water or Advanced. I showed them the paper NAUI card that says "Scuba" and is dated 1969 and they stopped asking. They got even, though. They made me show my nitrox card before they would fill my tanks for the dives we did that afternoon. > Only places I know always want the card are state parks, and they have > only two distinctions.......OW & Overhead. Not all state parks even ask, but those that don't, don't have overheads to worry about. Lee > The folks at Paradise Springs wanted to see ours when we dove there with > you. Dave darned near didn't get to dive because he left his home. Yeah, but that's not a boat.....remember, it's a cave site. But, you're right, all the commercial fw sites I've been to check. > I enjoy arrogant people. I can clearly reacall being asked, in the Keys, > what my certification level was. I responded "Scuba." They said, I know, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > made me show my nitrox card before they would fill my tanks for the dives > we did that afternoon. Would have loved to see that. Shop I'm referring to wanted to see an AOW for their cattle boat night dive, which I don't even carry anymore. Then pretty much degraded the cert I could prove, without even seeing it or asking what experience I had. I figured them too clueless to trust. >> Only places I know always want the card are state parks, and they have >> only two distinctions.......OW & Overhead. > > Not all state parks even ask, but those that don't, don't have overheads > to worry about. My experience with them is pretty much at cave sites, although I did do some beach diving off St Joe's Peninsula State Park, where they didn't even list scuba. Ranger pretty much just asked if I had a dive flag, and told me where it was deep enough. Most have just been concerned with the no-lights rules for OW. Curtis > I enjoy arrogant people. I can clearly reacall being asked, in the Keys, > what my certification level was. I responded "Scuba." They said, I know, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > show my nitrox card before they would fill my tanks for the dives we did > that afternoon. Greg has been after me to tell this story on myself. But I'm a bit embarrassed because (surprise, surprise) I *was* initially being a bit of an a.shole. So OK, last trip to Roatan, first dive day. Buddy wants to dive with a shop that I don't particularly want to dive with, but oh well, what difference should it make really? Buddy is taking some extra training and after all, for her it's about the instructor, right? My first dive of the day, DM is a young fella we'd seen out the night before. He gave a decent briefing, told us we'd be diving as a group, told those with computers that they should dive their computers but gave a reasonable suggested basement (we'd have needed a shovel anyway). No problem, in we go, nice quiet dive, no problemo. Second dive of the day isn't for 3 or so hours. The selected shop only dives two a day, one at 9 and one at 1. (now you know one reason I didn't want to dive with them). In any event, there's been a change in DM. New DM sits down next to me and does the chatting me up thing getting a feel for my experience level, etc. I told him I'd been there less than a month ago and had spent 3 weeks there over Xmas/New Years. I also gave the thumbnail of my other experience. He gives the briefing. I'm listening but not looking at him in rapt attention. I'd done this particular site at least 6 times before. He calls my name and gives me the handwave to move up closer to him and pay more attention. So I do, without making a face. During the briefing he says those with computers can dive their computers. Then he starts assigning buddies. I'm thinking "What the F?" Further, he pairs me up with a 10 dive wonder. So I say "Uh, sorry, but I'm just not a very good buddy". He says "I'm not asking you to do anything difficult here." I reply, "Ya, I know but I'm a recalcitrant diver." He asks "What is that?" I make what I mean to be taken as a bit of a joke and say it with a wink "it means I don't listen to the DM." The bottom upon entry is 30' max with a sand floor, no current, no surface waves. I'm one of the first to enter the water, but he refuses to allow any one to descend without the whole group, even assuming they had their buddy with them. It took at least 10-15 minutes for everyone to get it together while I get heatstroke. My assigned buddy finally drops in the water, and I help him get his mask on properly. We eventually descend. The dive proceeds with the group at 60' as set out in the briefing. My assigned buddy, that I've refused, is stuck to the DM's a.s . . so I'm extremely happy about that. I've watched him for a while and he just doesn't need me, know what I mean? ;^) I proceed to drop to 75' and do my usual noodling around, but looking up to the group fairly regularly. About 2/3 of the way through the dive, I see the DM give me the hand signal for "come up to our level". I look at my computer, and I'm at 71'. I pointedly look at my computer and sort of shake him off. At this point, I did say to myself "hey, the dive's not all that, why are ya being such an a.shole?" I wasn't really sure of the answer but the little prick was pissing me off for some reason. Eventually, we all ascended, though somehow or other, I was the last up. Could it be because I always do a slow and careful ascent? When I boarded, I gabbed with my real buddy and the instructor about the lesson they'd just done, but I could certainly feel the tension from down the boat. Ever so much later that day, while dining with my real buddy and the instructor fella, the DM stopped by our table. I thought, heck, I'll offer an olive branch. So I said "I'm sorry I upset you today." The guy went nuts. He started speaking in a very loud voice, chewing my a.s out and even went so far as to accuse me of being a dangerous diver of the worst kind. My buddy started to come out of her chair, but my calm response stopped her. Among other things, I even soothingly told him I could understand why he'd see it that way (wg). Still, none of that was good enough for him, he had to point out that the dive op had the right to refuse to let me dive with them. I told him I was pretty sure that things were going to work out in such a way that I wouldn't be diving with them anyway, so that shouldn't be a problem. In any event, he eventually just couldn't think of any more harsh things to say and off he went, vapours of steam streaming behind him. The shop instructor turned to me at that point and said, "hey, that's just not right. That's no way to behave even if he was right about any of it." The instructor was saying things such as "As more experienced divers, we have a responsibility to show newer divers the right way of things" etc. etc. To which I would respond with a raspberry and a merry twinkle in my eye. The next morning, I went over to another shop that I'd checked out on my prior trip. I explained my dive style and that I'd had a bit of an issue with another DM. They had no problem and said that they consider divers' experience levels when planning dives and would be happy to have me. In the meantime, I didn't really know what I'd be doing that day. Real buddy wasn't taking extra training that day and wanted to dive with me. She still wanted to dive with the first shop, because she was still going to be doing more training with the instructor later in the week. Further, the little DM wasn't supposed to be working that day, so I figured what the heck, why not. My real buddy is a newer diver and so I intended to be a good buddy to her, just as I have always been (regardless of what I'd said on the boat the day before). Sure enough, life being what it can be, the little DM was there, on duty and with attitude. He says "Are you diving with us today?" And I replied "I don't know yet, I'm just waiting for my buddy to show up." She arrived within seconds of that exchange and she was ready to dive, so I said with a big friendly smile "Yes, I will be diving with you today." He gave me a look and I said "Don't worry, it won't be like yesterday." He immediately turned upon me and spit out "Doesn't matter, *you* aren't diving here!!" LOL, no worries, I gathered up my gear and went across the road. My buddy was a bit non-plussed but gathered up her gear and crossed over with me. We had a blast at the second shop, though my buddy did have to go back and forth because of her extra training. Since I had left my c-card at home by complete accident, I didn't have a card to show either one of these shops. Neither shop actually asked me to produce it. :^) > > I enjoy arrogant people. I can clearly reacall being asked, in the Keys, > > what my certification level was. I responded "Scuba." They said, I know, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > embarrassed because (surprise, surprise) I *was* initially being a bit of an > a.shole. (snip) Hmm, I thought the gang around here would be ripping me a new one or explaining why they agreed that I thought little DM was dive Nazi extrordinaire . . .but there's been absolutely *no* response. I can live with that. (wg) > > > I enjoy arrogant people. I can clearly reacall being asked, in the > Keys, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I can live with that. It was an interesting story. Dennis > > (snip) > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It was an interesting story. And I'm a little disappointed that you allowed yourself to be talked into considering a second day of diving with the little pencil-dicked twit. I thought your standards were much higher :-) > And I'm a little disappointed that you allowed yourself to be talked > into considering a second day of diving with the little pencil-dicked > twit. I thought your standards were much higher :-) Anyone who's done the Dive with Greg can't claim to have high standards. > Anyone who's done the Dive with Greg can't claim to have high standards. Oh yes we can. We just tried to accommodate you. ;-) Curtis > ? "chilly" <slarson@shaw.canada> wrote in message > ? news:bbkGe.64761$s54.12766@pd7tw2no... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > into considering a second day of diving with the little pencil-dicked > twit. I thought your standards were much higher :-) (shrugs) The things one will do for a good freind. "chilly" wrote >> Hmm, I thought the gang around here would be ripping me a new one . . . Why, is your old one broken? > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > night dives and I've been on wreck dives. Have I been lucky? Or will > I show up one day to have a provider say "sorry no dive for you"? That varies from operator to operator. Some will ask you if yer comfy with the dives to be done and leave it at that. Some will ask for a log book. Some will require a checkout dive. Ask what they require before you give em yer credit card. > I certainly see why people speak disparagingly about PADI, in theory to > do what I've already done on more than one occasion I should have had > two additional PADI certs ..which means two additional classes. The > money which is no small consideration, is nothing compared to the > investment in time this would take.. Anyone that disparages PADI has their head up their a.s. The only consideration is whether you, as an individual, are competent enough for the specific conditions. And advanced courses are not expensive in areas where there is a lot of diving. And everyone can learn a little from advanced courses if taken with a good instructor and an open mind. > While I'm asking, is there anywhere I can get a sense of what is > included in the rest of the PADI courses? The next thing I would be > looking at if I follow the padi path is Advanced Open Water .. they > don't seem to give any real description of the options.. some look > like a complete waste of time. Advanced open water is pretty much "go diving with an instructor". See comments above. > What the heck is "Boat Diver"? It has to be different than diving > from a boat .. doesn't it? > And "FISH Identification"? C'mon.. sure it's interesting but as > part of a dive Cert? Boat diver: go on a boat and listen carefully to the briefing. Try a back flip if they will let you (most will, even if not the preferred entry). Fish ID: Dive with Bullshark. > Should I care about any of this or should I just find some guy who > knows what he's doing and pay him to teach me what I need to know to > do what I want? That's the best way. > Is there a book? Some things, like mixed gases and critter ID, are very book-intensive. Others, like caving or wrecking, are very instructor-intensive. > Sorry for venting.. Legit questions. > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. > > Do many dive operators actually give a sh.t that I'm only certified > to 60 feet on this card? snip ... do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of such a thing. Something new with PADI? > ... do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of such > a thing. Something new with PADI? Yep, if you go below 60 ft, they self-destruct... > do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of such > a thing. Something new with PADI? It's been a recommendation for a long time, but I have never seen an operator limit people to this ust because they have no AOW card. I have also seen unscrupulous instructors will present it differently. >> do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of such >> a thing. Something new with PADI? > > It's been a recommendation for a long time, but I have never seen an > operator limit people to this ust because they have no AOW card. I have > also seen unscrupulous instructors will present it differently. I've seen operators in Key Largo "require" and AOW card for "advanced" dives like the Duane, but it was only to force you to pay a "Divemaster" to go along with you. >>> do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of such >>> a thing. Something new with PADI? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >dives like the Duane, but it was only to force you to pay a "Divemaster" to >go along with you. That's right. I only had my brand spanking new c card when we booked to dive the Duane. He wasn't gonna let me go till I pulled out my logbook and he recognized some of the dives we'd been doing in the Great Lakes. Turns out he learned up here in the cold dark water too. JF "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton >>>> do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of such >>>> a thing. Something new with PADI? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >logbook and he recognized some of the dives we'd been doing in the >Great Lakes. Turns out he learned up here in the cold dark water too. Which would only qualify you to dive in cold dark water!!! >JF > >"What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, > but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton Signaturedillon Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way of life. And a damn fine one, at that. >>That's right. I only had my brand spanking new c card when we booked >>to dive the Duane. He wasn't gonna let me go till I pulled out my >>logbook and he recognized some of the dives we'd been doing in the >>Great Lakes. Turns out he learned up here in the cold dark water too. > >Which would only qualify you to dive in cold dark water!!! Which I only do now when absolutely necessary. JF "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton >>>That's right. I only had my brand spanking new c card when we booked >>>to dive the Duane. He wasn't gonna let me go till I pulled out my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >Which I only do now when absolutely necessary. With age comes wisdom. And senility >JF > >"What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, > but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton Signaturedillon Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way of life. And a damn fine one, at that. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >also seen unscrupulous instructors will present it differently. > Some charter ops on Lake Erie won't let you on the boat with an OW card if they dive is more than 75' or so. John Eells > ... do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of > such a thing. Something new with PADI? C-cards don't give you the right to do anything. They merely document some minimum training. Safe diving, Cpt. Dale > C-cards don't give you the right to do anything. They merely document > some minimum training. Minimum being the key word. Curtis ""Magilla"" wrote in message news:QtUFe.40294$5N3.25325@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Minimum being the key word. They make it a bit easier to get air fills these days, although I managed to skate by for many years without one... Don't have to use the old line, "Damn, I left it at home... I'll bring it in next time..." Or getting them filled at the fire extinguisher shop that fills the SCBA tanks for the firefighters (they don't card you and quite oftern are cheaper than the LDS)... >> ... do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of >> such a thing. Something new with PADI? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Safe diving, > Cpt. Dale Okay you wise guys -- you know what I meant. Cut the song and dance routine or join up with Michael Jackson. When did PADI start this 60 foot nonsense? > Okay you wise guys -- you know what I meant. Cut the song and dance > routine or join up with Michael Jackson. When did PADI start this 60 foot > nonsense? About the time the split their course into Open Water and Advanced Open Water. The 60 foot recommendation has been around for a long time. What I find more interesting is that the AOW recommendation seems to have changed from 130 to 100 feet. That probably happened when they came out with their deep water diving specialty. Lee That probably happened > when they came out with their deep water diving specialty. > > Lee Yup SignatureStef the pragmatist Hope for the best Plan for the worst Sometimes the glass is half-full; most of the time I’m waiting for a refill. >> Okay you wise guys -- you know what I meant. Cut the song and dance >> routine or join up with Michael Jackson. When did PADI start this 60 foot [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Lee No, it was a while after that. What they did do was to raise the required depth for the deep dive in AOW from 80 to 65 feet. It's been a while since I taught an AOW class, so I'd have to dig up the manual to see what it says, which I'm just too damn lazy to do, since it's still in a box somewhere. Signaturedillon Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way of life. And a damn fine one, at that. >> Okay you wise guys -- you know what I meant. Cut the song and dance >> routine or join up with Michael Jackson. When did PADI start this 60 foot [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lee So you mean there is another neat patch that I can get to put on my warm-up jacket so that I can look like a REAL diver? Cool ... ;-) What a racket -- I guess it's good for shops/instructors trying to make some money, but it still seems like a scam. > > About the time the split their course into Open Water and Advanced Open > > Water. The 60 foot recommendation has been around for a long time. What [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What a racket -- I guess it's good for shops/instructors trying to make some > money, but it still seems like a scam. Seems???? > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ... do C cards only give you a right to dive to 60 feet? Never heard of such > a thing. Something new with PADI? PADI's really loosened up. My PADI Basic card authorizes "limited underwater excursions to approximately 30 feet". > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. > > Do many dive operators actually give a sh.t that I'm only certified > to 60 feet on this card? You're not certified to 60 feet. That's a recommendation. You are certified to dive. Having said that, some do, some don't. Those that do, and are good, will quite worrying after they've seen you dive a few times . . . if you're good enough to earn their confidence. > About half the dives I've been on have been > deeper than that with a few close to double that depth. I've been on > night dives and I've been on wreck dives. Have I been lucky? Or will > I show up one day to have a provider say "sorry no dive for you"? Probably some luck. There seem to be more shops that don't care than those that do, but, sooner or later, you're probably going to run into one that does. > I certainly see why people speak disparagingly about PADI, in theory to > do what I've already done on more than one occasion I should have had > two additional PADI certs ..which means two additional classes. The > money which is no small consideration, is nothing compared to the > investment in time this would take.. Don't let PADI hear you say that. They don't believe anything is more important than money. > While I'm asking, is there anywhere I can get a sense of what is > included in the rest of the PADI courses? The next thing I would be > looking at if I follow the padi path is Advanced Open Water .. they > don't seem to give any real description of the options.. some look > like a complete waste of time. If you already know that PADI's not the one and only true path to enlightenment, why not try one of the other agencies. Each one has a slightly different approach and culture. Exposure to a variety of ideas can be a good thing. > What the heck is "Boat Diver"? It has to be different than diving > from a boat .. doesn't it? Nope. It's diving from a boat. If you've always dove from boats, you probably think it's pretty silly to have a certifiation for doing so, but you might be surprised. There's more to it than sometimes meets the eye. If you've never dove off a boat, it's definitely worth something if you have time and money to spare . . . or you could just ask those of us that know everything. > And "FISH Identification"? C'mon.. sure it's interesting but as > part of a dive Cert? Yeah, well, they had to call it something. I suppose there are people who would find a fish identification course interesting, but I don't really see it as a certifcation. As far as I know, it's called a specialty course. I don't have a clue why they issue a card for it. Nobody cares. > Should I care about any of this or should I just find some guy who > knows what he's doing and pay him to teach me what I need to know to > do what I want? However you get the information is fine. On the other hand, it's nice to have an advanced card just in case somebody decides to ask for one before taking you to a dive you want to do. When you get around to breathing a gas other than air, nitrox, trimix, whatever, you'll need a card to get fills. > Is there a book? Many of them, but PADI doesn't give them away. Lee > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > night dives and I've been on wreck dives. Have I been lucky? Or will > I show up one day to have a provider say "sorry no dive for you"? Yep, this will happen one day. A few dive operators are strict about this - probably for insurance reasons. I've had operators take me to 90ft on a standard OW card but I've also had others insist on AOW to dive below 40ft. > I certainly see why people speak disparagingly about PADI, in theory to > do what I've already done on more than one occasion I should have had > two additional PADI certs ..which means two additional classes. The > money which is no small consideration, is nothing compared to the > investment in time this would take.. The idea that AOW "qualifies" you to dive to 100ft is a joke - as if a single dive below 60ft gives you all you need to do this! However, it is a fun course to do if you can select some interesting adventure dives. Certainly night diving is good if you haven't done it before, and playing with lift bags on the search and recovery is fun. > OK so I got my open water diver cert from my local PADI retailer. .. > and I've got a few questions. Thanks all, for the replies both here and via e-mail it is nice to have the different perspectives.. I guess one thing I should really take away from this is to be diligent about keeping my log, and take further certs as time permits. > I guess one thing I should really take away from this is to be diligent > about keeping my log, and take further certs as time permits. That's two things and you didn't get either quite right. You should keep a dive log, but not for others. It is a record of the diving you do and one day, when you're my age or <shudder> older, you'll find you enjoy the reminders of past diving. If you keep information like starting pressure, average depth, temperature, ending pressure and the like, it can also help you develop as a diver and measure that development. To show an operator, is a poor reason to keep a log. Taking further certs as time permits is also questionable. Take what you think you need, for sure. Most think Advanced, Rescue and, perhaps, nitrox are fundamentals. Not everybody agrees that nitrox is. Outside of the fundamentals, take what you want to learn about. Just don't get to the point where you think the cards you carry are a reliable measure of the quality of your diving skills and abilities. If you take any one thing away from this, make it "get the training and experience it takes to be safe." Lee <snip> >If you take any one thing away from this, make it "get the training and >experience it takes to be safe." > >Lee Interesting, I have never not been asked for my card. On e time in North Carolina The Boat captn asked my experience level as we were heading out to the U 85 in 100+ feet and know for a current. When we got there he asked again, are you sure you want to do this. About that time a cloud cam over and it got dark. I looked at the black water and said, I guess I'll sit it out and take the less advanced second dive. Skipper said thanks. ><snip> >>If you take any one thing away from this, make it "get the training and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >said, I guess I'll sit it out and take the less advanced second dive. >Skipper said thanks. Discretion being the better part of valor. Smart thing to do, knowing your limits. I'm not really surprised at the number of DAN incidents that say something like "OW certified diver in 150 feet of water" Signaturedillon Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way of life. And a damn fine one, at that. |
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