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Scuba Forum / General / August 2005

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Nitrox tanks worth it?

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Dillon Pyron - 27 Jul 2005 15:50 GMT
First of all, for you sock puppets, this is real diving content.

I'm debating getting a "nitrox" tank.  My LDS gives me an instructor
discount (even though I haven't taught there since they went NAUI) so
I get air fills for $3 and can rent tanks for $8.  Nitrox fills are $6
and tanks rent for $12.  So the question is, do I bother buying a
dedicated nitrox tank.  They'll only fill tanks marked for nitrox.
The problem is, I only dive nitrox every once and a while locally
(most of my buddies are on air) and the only "liveaboards" where I
need to take tanks don't have nitrox (although I'm told one of them
does, now, so Stetson's and Flower Gardens, here I come).

Is it worth the price for a dedicated nitrox tank, or should I just
buy a third air tank and rent the occasional nitrox?

To get back on topic, I'm looking far a nice compact 1911 in .40 S&W.
I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.

Signature

dillon
Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way
of life.

And a damn fine one, at that.

Michael Wolf - 27 Jul 2005 15:54 GMT
> First of all, for you sock puppets, this is real diving content.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.

How much do nitrox tanks cost in the US?

and personal filters?

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Michael Wolf

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Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 02:37 GMT
> How much do nitrox tanks cost in the US?
> and personal filters?

If you buy the right kind in the right place, the same as air tanks.  All of
the tanks I purchased recently, came O2 clean.  If you get one that's not,
and need it to be, it may increase the cost by about 50%.

I'm not sure what a personal filter is.

Lee
Greg Mossman - 28 Jul 2005 04:20 GMT
> If you buy the right kind in the right place, the same as air tanks.  All
> of the tanks I purchased recently, came O2 clean.  If you get one that's
> not, and need it to be, it may increase the cost by about 50%.
>
> I'm not sure what a personal filter is.

It's a European thing.  You can recycle your urine.  They're real big on
recycling over there.
Limey - 04 Aug 2005 20:33 GMT
>> If you buy the right kind in the right place, the same as air tanks.  All
>> of the tanks I purchased recently, came O2 clean.  If you get one that's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It's a European thing.  You can recycle your urine.  They're real big on
> recycling over there.

Mine ought to be worth quite a bit.

LD.
Michael Wolf - 28 Jul 2005 09:25 GMT
>>How much do nitrox tanks cost in the US?
>>and personal filters?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Lee

It's a small filter that you can install between your tank valve and the
compressor to be sure that you get 'clean' air.

So, if you want to fill your nitrox tanks with air at a filling station
you don't know you simply use the personal filter to make sure they
don't get contaminated.

Quite handy if you want to take you nitrox tanks with you but don't want
to dive nitrox the whole time.

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Michael Wolf

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Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 13:22 GMT
>> I'm not sure what a personal filter is.

> It's a small filter that you can install between your tank valve and the
> compressor to be sure that you get 'clean' air.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Quite handy if you want to take you nitrox tanks with you but don't want
> to dive nitrox the whole time.

Interesting concept, but I'd take some convincing.  I'm not sure I'm ready
to accept that a small filter you can put between the compressor and the
tank will remove things that the much larger filters used by dive shops
won't.  Around here, and I presume throughout the States, the air provided
by shops is tested regularly.  While instances of contaminated gas are not
unheard of, they are quite rare.

What, specifically, is a personal filter supposed to remove?

Lee
Michael Wolf - 28 Jul 2005 13:39 GMT
>>>I'm not sure what a personal filter is.
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Lee

mostly oil and also water and dirt.

Sorry, with contaminated I didn't mean with other gasses. The air here
too is regulary tested. But you never know how regulary the shop changes
the filter...
If you're at a shop that only does does air fills, you can't be sure if
the air is clean enough

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Charlie Hammond - 28 Jul 2005 14:04 GMT
>Interesting concept, but I'd take some convincing.  I'm not sure I'm ready
>to accept that a small filter you can put between the compressor and the
>tank will remove things that the much larger filters used by dive shops
>won't.  ...

Lee, your argument may or may not hold up.  I'd think that (within reason)
the size of a filter has more to do with (1) the flow rate it can handle,
and (2) how long it last without cleaning/replacement.  For a occasional
use and realtively low flow rate, a small, personal filter might do as
well or better than the possibly much used (and maybe abused) larger size
shop filter.

.. which reminds me -- my home A/C filters are past due for replacement...

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 15:37 GMT
>>Interesting concept, but I'd take some convincing.  I'm not sure I'm ready
>>to accept that a small filter you can put between the compressor and the
>>tank will remove things that the much larger filters used by dive shops
>>won't.  ...

> Lee, your argument may or may not hold up.

I don't have an argument.  I'm just not convinced yet.

> I'd think that (within reason) the size of a filter has more to do with
> (1) the flow rate it can handle,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> (and maybe abused) larger size
> shop filter.

Filters for removing water are usually designed differently than ones for
removing oil, dirt or other contaminants.  A filter for removing oil seems
feasible, but only for very small amounts and, probably, only once.  Once
impregnated with any oil at all, I would not be surprised if the filter
actually added oil otherwise clean future fills.  A filter that could remove
dirt, rust and other particles is pretty easy to conceive, assuming that
normal fill pressures aren't sufficient to blow any collected dirt right
through the filter material once it approaches it's capacity.  I wouldn't
think it would take many dirty fills for it to reach that capacity.

It's certainly possible that such a filter would work, particularly if it
has a single use disposable filter medium, but I will still need some
convincing before I run right out and buy one.

> .. which reminds me -- my home A/C filters are past due for replacement...

My wife tells me when it's time for me to replace them.

Lee
Michael Wolf - 28 Jul 2005 15:54 GMT
>>>Interesting concept, but I'd take some convincing.  I'm not sure I'm ready
>>>to accept that a small filter you can put between the compressor and the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> has a single use disposable filter medium, but I will still need some
> convincing before I run right out and buy one.

They work with carbon cartridges that need to be replaced every 50-100
times (pending on how 'dirty' the air was)

Signature

Michael Wolf

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Cthulhu For President.
Why settle for the lesser evil?

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Ghmorris - 28 Jul 2005 21:22 GMT
hammond@not wrote:

> Lee, your argument may or may not hold up.  I'd think that (within reason)
> the size of a filter has more to do with (1) the flow rate it can handle,
> and (2) how long it last without cleaning/replacement.  For a occasional
> use and realtively low flow rate, a small, personal filter might do as
> well or better than the possibly much used (and maybe abused) larger size
> shop filter.

Not sure if you've seen this Charlie, but dwell time is one of the most
critical numbers for effective filtration. You need the air to be in
contact with the filter media for quite a long time to work properly so
small filters are intrinsically less effective.

This is an excellent article:
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10085
Alan Street - 27 Jul 2005 16:19 GMT
> First of all, for you sock puppets, this is real diving content.
>
> I'm debating getting a "nitrox" tank.  My LDS gives me an instructor
> discount (even though I haven't taught there since they went NAUI

Maybe you should consider getting a cross-over certification. Unlike
PADI, NAUI actually makes this affordable.

) so
> I get air fills for $3 and can rent tanks for $8.  Nitrox fills are $6
> and tanks rent for $12.  So the question is, do I bother buying a
> dedicated nitrox tank.  They'll only fill tanks marked for nitrox.

Are they doing PP fills? Can't you just mark (and O2 clean for PP) one
of your existing tanks? Do they insist on a big green band, or is a
piece of tape with the mix on it sufficient marking?

> The problem is, I only dive nitrox every once and a while locally
> (most of my buddies are on air) and the only "liveaboards" where I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.
Greg Mossman - 27 Jul 2005 16:20 GMT
> I'm debating getting a "nitrox" tank.  My LDS gives me an instructor
> discount (even though I haven't taught there since they went NAUI) so
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> need to take tanks don't have nitrox (although I'm told one of them
> does, now, so Stetson's and Flower Gardens, here I come).

Find a different shop to get an "instructor discount".  Sheesh, my local
shop would never charge me for a tank "rental" if it's otherwise just going
to be sitting in the shop, and air fills (and usually nitrox) are free as
long as I do it myself.

> Is it worth the price for a dedicated nitrox tank, or should I just
> buy a third air tank and rent the occasional nitrox?

You seem to have answered your own question.  If "every once and a while
locally" means once a year, the tank costs the same as the annual inspection
you'd need on your own tank and you'd be silly not to rent.  Are you
planning on cleaning your own tank or letting the shop do it?  Shops can
charge big bucks for nitrox cleaning.

> To get back on topic, I'm looking far a nice compact 1911 in .40 S&W.
> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.

Compact?  I thought guns were only bought by men ashamed of their penis
size.  Why would you want a compact gun?
Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 02:39 GMT
>> To get back on topic, I'm looking far a nice compact 1911 in .40 S&W.
>> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
>> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.
>
> Compact?  I thought guns were only bought by men ashamed of their penis
> size.  Why would you want a compact gun?

It makes the penis look larger in comparison.
Scott - 27 Jul 2005 16:22 GMT
> First of all, for you sock puppets, this is real diving content.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Is it worth the price for a dedicated nitrox tank, or should I just
> buy a third air tank and rent the occasional nitrox?

Rent the occaisional or find an LDS that doesnt have its head up its a.s.

> To get back on topic, I'm looking far a nice compact 1911 in .40 S&W.
> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.

Look at the Kimbers. Craftsmanship is excellent, materials are top notch,
made in USA.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/index2.php

Stay away from Springfield Armory.
Grumman-581 - 27 Jul 2005 16:56 GMT
<snip>

It's going to depend upon how many dives you do per year with the
nitrox tank... Easy enough to create a spreadsheet and do some "what
if" type scenarios... Factor in the cost of the tanks, the refills,
annual inspections, hydros, etc... And if the numbers don't turn out
like you want them to, then  you factor in "convenience"... I have a
more tanks that I probably really need because when I want to go
diving, I want to be able to just grab a tank from the garage and go
without having to go to the local shop to rent a tank... If I've gone
and I have to turn the dive before finishing the tank, I don't feel bad
about wasting a tank as I would if I was renting the tank by the day...
For me, the convenience is a deciding factor on owning vs renting
tanks...
Greg Mossman - 27 Jul 2005 17:30 GMT
> more tanks that I probably really need because when I want to go
> diving, I want to be able to just grab a tank from the garage and go
> without having to go to the local shop to rent a tank... If I've gone

What an optimist.  Here I thought you needed water nearby to be able to grab
a tank and go diving.
cavey_curtis@$$ yahoo.com - 27 Jul 2005 17:36 GMT
> What an optimist.  Here I thought you needed water nearby to be able to
> grab a tank and go diving.

   Maybe that's why he has more tanks than he needs, it would only take
one.....  :-P

Curtis
Grumman-581 - 27 Jul 2005 17:38 GMT
> What an optimist.  Here I thought you needed water nearby to be able to grab
> a tank and go diving.

Yeah, right... Very fuckin' funny... I'm stuck here in the damn Great
Plains without even a fuckin' quarry that might be worth diving in and
you're making jokes about it...

Willing to bet another beer on the next Presidential election?  Bet you
a beer that Hillary doesn't get elected... Same criteria on payoffs as
last time, of course... Wouldn't want you to think that you might have
to travel to wherever I might be stuck contracting at that time...
Greg Mossman - 27 Jul 2005 18:01 GMT
> Willing to bet another beer on the next Presidential election?  Bet you
> a beer that Hillary doesn't get elected... Same criteria on payoffs as
> last time, of course... Wouldn't want you to think that you might have
> to travel to wherever I might be stuck contracting at that time...

I'm definitely not going to Detroit, you can count on that.  That's even
worse than Texas.

Why can't you go somewhere sane like San Diego?  They have a significant
naval presence there, or at least they used to before the latest base
closures.  Great weather, an ocean nearby, no guns allowed . . .

But yes, you're on.  In fact, make it two beers.  I have confidence in my
gal.
Grumman-581 - 27 Jul 2005 18:46 GMT
> I'm definitely not going to Detroit, you can count on that.  That's even
> worse than Texas.

Detroit probably has better diving that Cedar Rapids, but I'm not all
that crazy about going there... I can think of a few places where I
would less rather be than Detroit, but it's pretty close the the bottom
of the list... It apparently has better diving than Cedar Rapids -- at
least when the water is not solid... Than again, I don't believe that
there has been *any* Great White attacks in any of the nearby lakes and
waterways...

> Why can't you go somewhere sane like San Diego?  They have a significant
> naval presence there, or at least they used to before the latest base
> closures.  Great weather, an ocean nearby, no guns allowed . . .

I've been stationed in San Diego before and I've dove in SoCal
before... The water is cold, but probably warmer than up here... At the
very least, it doesn't form a solid during the winter...

Don't know about the San Diego area, but in the L.A. area, apartments
were rather expensive even back in 1979 when I lived there... A 3BR
condo in Morepark was renting for $900 per month back then... I would
hate to think what they probably go for these days...

You don't think that a little thing like "no guns allowed" would stop
me from carrying, right?  Remember, I consider such laws immoral and
unconstitutional since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
NOT BE INFRINGED...

> But yes, you're on.  In fact, make it two beers.  I have confidence in my
> gal.

Sounds good -- 2 beers it is... Same payoff clauses as last time --
payoff occurs if we both happen to be in the same general area at the
same time... If Hillary does not win the next presidential election,
you owe me a beer... If Hillary does win, I owe you a beer... No fancy
clauses or anything like you and Reefy kept arguing about -- we'll keep
it nice and simple...
Alan Street - 27 Jul 2005 19:02 GMT
> > I'm definitely not going to Detroit, you can count on that.  That's even
> > worse than Texas.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> condo in Morepark was renting for $900 per month back then... I would
> hate to think what they probably go for these days...

San Diego now makes LA look cheap (well, at least reasonable). But this
is normally taken into account in the contract price for someone like
you.

> You don't think that a little thing like "no guns allowed" would stop
> me from carrying, right?  Remember, I consider such laws immoral and
> unconstitutional since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
> NOT BE INFRINGED...

We don't have any restrictions on guns. Guns aren't allowed
(theoretically) south of an imaginary line about 20 miles from here,
but that's a whole different playground.

> > But yes, you're on.  In fact, make it two beers.  I have confidence in my
> > gal.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> clauses or anything like you and Reefy kept arguing about -- we'll keep
> it nice and simple...
Greg Mossman - 27 Jul 2005 19:41 GMT
> We don't have any restrictions on guns. Guns aren't allowed
> (theoretically) south of an imaginary line about 20 miles from here,
> but that's a whole different playground.

Shhh.  Don't tell anyone.  You want all the gun-nuts moving in?

And taxes, I forgot about taxes.  Way too many taxes.
Grumman-581 - 28 Jul 2005 02:35 GMT
> And taxes, I forgot about taxes.  Way too many taxes.

As an independent contractor, I don't pay the state taxes in the state I'm
working, I pay them in my home state... Just so happens though that Texas
doesn't have a personal income tax -- they stick it to you on property taxes
though...
Dillon Pyron - 28 Jul 2005 04:41 GMT
>> And taxes, I forgot about taxes.  Way too many taxes.
>
>As an independent contractor, I don't pay the state taxes in the state I'm
>working, I pay them in my home state... Just so happens though that Texas
>doesn't have a personal income tax -- they stick it to you on property taxes
>though...

Or sales tax, if the part timers have their say.

Signature

dillon

Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way
of life.

And a damn fine one, at that.

JOF - 27 Jul 2005 23:06 GMT
>l since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
>NOT BE INFRINGED...

Beyond me why you guys want fringes on yer guns. Seems kinda effete to
me, not to mention the possibility of the fringe jamming the breech.

JF

"What embitters the world is not excess of criticism,
but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton
Greg Mossman - 27 Jul 2005 23:33 GMT
>>l since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
>>NOT BE INFRINGED...
>
> Beyond me why you guys want fringes on yer guns. Seems kinda effete to
> me, not to mention the possibility of the fringe jamming the breech.

And they wonder why normal guys like us think they're on the fringe.

I thought this was a particularly apropos definition from dictionary.com.
Note number two:

fringe
n 1: the outside boundary or surface of something [syn: periphery, outer
boundary] 2: a part of the city far removed from the center; "they built a
factory on the outskirts of the city" [syn: outskirt] 3: a social group
holding marginal or extreme views; "members of the fringe believe we should
be armed with guns at all times" 4: edging consisting of hanging threads or
tassels v 1: adorn with a fringe; "The weaver fringed the scarf" 2: decorate
with or as if with a surrounding fringe; "fur fringed the hem of the dress"

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fringe

Obviously the site has succumbed to the liberal media bias conspiracy.
Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 02:46 GMT
>>l since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
>>NOT BE INFRINGED...
>
> Beyond me why you guys want fringes on yer guns. Seems kinda effete to
> me, not to mention the possibility of the fringe jamming the breech.

Damn, John, read for content.  We don't want no damned fringes on our guns.
That's why the law says "Shall not be infringed."

Lee
JOF - 28 Jul 2005 04:05 GMT
>>>l since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
>>>NOT BE INFRINGED...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Damn, John, read for content.  We don't want no damned fringes on our guns.
>That's why the law says "Shall not be infringed."

Then why make it so damned complicated. Just say "Shall be unfringed".

JF

"What embitters the world is not excess of criticism,
but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton
Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 13:18 GMT
>>>>l since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
>>>>NOT BE INFRINGED...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
> Then why make it so damned complicated. Just say "Shall be unfringed".

Typical anti gun comment.  To be infringed, the gun first has to be
infringed and we're not sitting still for that.  Give them a fringe and
pretty soon they'll want the whole damned thing fringed.

Lee
JOF - 28 Jul 2005 14:21 GMT
>>>>>l since they came after the one and only law -- SHALL
>>>>>NOT BE INFRINGED...
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Lee

Seems to me that if they made fringes mandatory a whole lot fewer guns
would be pulled in anger by hairy chested guys. Even in the heat of
battle there's not many guys wanna be seen waving a pretty fringed
Glock. Of course it might induce enuf laughter to defuse the
situation.

Imagine a greasy punk stepping out of an alley brandishing a dainty
little blued handgun with delicate complementary fringing.

JF

"What embitters the world is not excess of criticism,
but an absence of self-criticism." - G.K.Chesterton
Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 15:41 GMT
> Seems to me that if they made fringes mandatory a whole lot fewer guns
> would be pulled in anger by hairy chested guys. Even in the heat of
> battle there's not many guys wanna be seen waving a pretty fringed
> Glock. Of course it might induce enuf laughter to defuse the
> situation.

They'd have to pass a new gun law.  A fringe covered Glock would be
considered a concealed weapon even when deployed for use.  Worse, it would
negate the calming effect of looking down the barrel of a very businesslike
weapon.  The anti gun lobby would probably no approve.

> Imagine a greasy punk stepping out of an alley brandishing a dainty
> little blued handgun with delicate complementary fringing.

I'm more worried about pulling my delicately fringed weapon and having the
greasy punk fail to realize how serious the penalty for his crime is about
to become.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 28 Jul 2005 18:17 GMT
> Seems to me that if they made fringes mandatory a whole lot fewer guns
> would be pulled in anger by hairy chested guys.

Apparrently, you've not seen the subset of bikers on Harleys that have the
leather fringed accessories on their bikes... I've never thought having all
those things waving in the wind was a good idea on a bike, but I never was
inclined to go into a biker bar and yell, "Who's the pussy with all the
fringes on their bike out there?"
mike gray - 27 Jul 2005 20:31 GMT
> But yes, you're on.  In fact, make it two beers.  I have confidence in my
> gal.

Hey, I'll take a case on that one!
Greg Mossman - 27 Jul 2005 22:00 GMT
>> But yes, you're on.  In fact, make it two beers.  I have confidence in my
>> gal.
>
> Hey, I'll take a case on that one!

Against a fine bottle of rum and a gallon of OJ?  You're on.

May the best woman win.
Al Wells - 27 Jul 2005 23:04 GMT
> Why can't you go somewhere sane like San Diego?  They have a significant
> naval presence there, or at least they used to before the latest base
> closures.  Great weather, an ocean nearby, no guns allowed . . .

Freezing cold water though......
Alan Street - 27 Jul 2005 23:56 GMT
> > Why can't you go somewhere sane like San Diego?  They have a significant
> > naval presence there, or at least they used to before the latest base
> > closures.  Great weather, an ocean nearby, no guns allowed . . .
>
> Freezing cold water though......

Cold is relative :-)
Grumman-581 - 28 Jul 2005 01:47 GMT
> Cold is relative :-)

Was that part of the Unified Field Theory? <grin>
Whistler - 28 Jul 2005 06:45 GMT
> Freezing cold water though......

Nah.  It's currently 74 on the surface.  I cooked on the surface swim
last night.  Fortunately, it was 55 from 40'-80' so I could cool off.
Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 02:42 GMT
> It's going to depend upon how many dives you do per year with the
> nitrox tank... Easy enough to create a spreadsheet and do some "what
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> For me, the convenience is a deciding factor on owning vs renting
> tanks...

It's the convenience factor for me too.  I'm likely to decide to go diving
on a moment's notice.  I don't always have time to wait for a shop to open
or, once it is open, to drive there in hopes that have a tank or tanks
available for rent.  Mine live here, full of something I think I'm likely to
want to breathe.  I keep a few with air, most with 32% and a couple with
36%.

Lee
mike gray - 27 Jul 2005 20:27 GMT
> First of all, for you sock puppets, this is real diving content.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.

Nitrox tanks are only necessary if yer getting partial pressure
fills, or if yer going over 40%. The basic difference is the
O-rings and the grease used in the valve.

I've been getting PP fills for the past twenty years so, of
course, I have "nitrox" tanks. But more local shops are banking
40% and able to do hot custom fills without pumping pure O2, so
it won't be long before my tanks retrograde into just plain tanks.

Obviously, if ya run out of air before ya run out of time, ya
don't need nitrox anyway. Period.

The rest is just economics. How many times will you be getting
PP fills? It's just a rent Vs buy decision.
Douglas W. - 27 Jul 2005 20:38 GMT
> First of all, for you sock puppets, this is real diving content.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.

 All my tanks are Nitrox.

 I'd rather rent air tanks (at the quarry, or where ever) (although I dive
Nitrox 99.998% of the time).

 Your shop should let you have free air, if you do the filling.

 You think that .38 Super flashes, you should try .41 Action Express in a
Commander...
Lee Bell - 28 Jul 2005 02:34 GMT
> Is it worth the price for a dedicated nitrox tank, or should I just
> buy a third air tank and rent the occasional nitrox?

Slowly, but surely, I'm turning all my "air" tanks into nitrox tanks.  At
present, none of them have nitrox bands on them, but most have an O2 service
sticker.  All of them get used for nitrox fills from my normal dive shop.
They bank nitrox and will fill anything I bring with up to 40%.  Above that,
they want them to be O2 clean.

> To get back on topic, I'm looking far a nice compact 1911 in .40 S&W.
> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
> Getting back on target isn't worth sh.t if you can't see the target.

It's a tough call.  My 10mm definitely kicks enough that it takes time to
get back on target.  My 9mm doesn't.  I'm not sure whether my .40 Glock does
or not.  It's pretty light and, as you probably know, the round is fairly
large and fairly fast.  Even the Glock, however, is hard to conceal and can
be unpleasant to carry around all day.  My Kel Tec .380 is light, easy to
conceal and sufficient to get the job done if I'm up close and personal.

Lee
Dillon Pyron - 28 Jul 2005 17:17 GMT
>> Is it worth the price for a dedicated nitrox tank, or should I just
>> buy a third air tank and rent the occasional nitrox?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>They bank nitrox and will fill anything I bring with up to 40%.  Above that,
>they want them to be O2 clean.

The shop I use does partials.  They won't touch anything that doesn't
have an O2 sticker and a nitrox band.  The first for safety, the
second for liability.  They make you test the tank with their analyzer
and yours.

>> To get back on topic, I'm looking far a nice compact 1911 in .40 S&W.
>> I was thinking compensated until I shot my .38 Super in the dark.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>be unpleasant to carry around all day.  My Kel Tec .380 is light, easy to
>conceal and sufficient to get the job done if I'm up close and personal.

I've looked at the Kahr MP40, but I really like the 1911 action.  I
know there's a chance I'll double tap somebody by accident, but I
personally believe that "I fired, he continued advancing and I
immediately fired again"

I currently carry a Firestar in .40 S&W.  I use CorBon 135s, which
have consistently gotten good reviews over the last ten years.  I've
also got a box of those deadly cop killer Black Talons.  $9.95, wonder
what I could sell it for these days.

I've always like Glocks, but they seem to be having some problems over
the last few years with unsupported barrels in the .45 and the .40.
The compacts feel nice in my small hands.  The 10mm even shoots a
little soft, although not as soft as the big gun.  I also figure that
as long as I'm going to shoot a 10mm, I want to shoot full up rounds.
If I want FBI rounds, I'll shoot a .40.

>Lee

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Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way
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And a damn fine one, at that.

Lee Bell - 29 Jul 2005 16:17 GMT
> The shop I use does partials.  They won't touch anything that doesn't
> have an O2 sticker and a nitrox band.  The first for safety, the
> second for liability.

It's silly to require a nitrox band, but not uncommon.

> They make you test the tank with their analyzer and yours.

It's not silly for you to test too, but it is silly for them to make you.
Not testing is a good way to get bent.  Just ask my left elbow.

> I've looked at the Kahr MP40, but I really like the 1911 action.  I
> know there's a chance I'll double tap somebody by accident, but I
> personally believe that "I fired, he continued advancing and I
> immediately fired again"

> I've always like Glocks, but they seem to be having some problems over
> the last few years with unsupported barrels in the .45 and the .40.

So the reports say.  There are an awful lot of cops carrying them and it's
been a while since I've heard of chambers exploding.  Regardless, the first
thing I did with my Glock .40 was change the guide rod (from plastic to
stainless) and replace the barrel with a match grade one.

> The compacts feel nice in my small hands.  The 10mm even shoots a
> little soft, although not as soft as the big gun.  I also figure that
> as long as I'm going to shoot a 10mm, I want to shoot full up rounds.

My 10mm is a hunting backup.  Down here in the Everglades, there's not
always a tree convenient when you need to get out of the way of an angry
hog.  I used to carry a Ruger .44 magnum, but it was just too heavy and hard
to use in a hurry.  If you're trying to stop a pissed off hog, you're always
in a hurry.  The 10mm in stainless, is everything I wanted, but the only
people that seem to be making the full power rounds for it is Corbon and
they want an arm and part of a leg for 20.  I'm actually thinking about
reloading again the get decent rounds for my 10mm for a decent price.

Lee
Greg Mossman - 31 Jul 2005 18:31 GMT
> It's not silly for you to test too, but it is silly for them to make you.
> Not testing is a good way to get bent.  Just ask my left elbow.

This was another beef I had with the Okeanos Aggressor.  They would fill the
tanks in place on the skiffs.  To test, you'd have to climb aboard the skiff
some time in between their filling the tanks and the dive briefing.
Unfortunately there was no time, since that's when everyone was suiting up.
AFAIK, no one on the boat checked their own tanks.  Since they partial
pressure filled, I was very concerned.  But I didn't want to "rock the boat"
by being the only one on the skiff testing my tank while the others were
getting briefed.  You'll be happy to know that my first gear purchase since
the trip was my very own analyzer so I don't get in that sort of situation
ever again.
Lee Bell - 31 Jul 2005 23:56 GMT
>> It's not silly for you to test too, but it is silly for them to make you.
>> Not testing is a good way to get bent.  Just ask my left elbow.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> since the trip was my very own analyzer so I don't get in that sort of
> situation ever again.

I'm on my second sensor for my third analyzer.  I took the "test your gas"
lesson seriously, perhaps a lot more seriously than most.  In fact, I
developed my own process for ensuring I know what is in the tank I breathe.
I expect my fills to be checked by the shop.  Any shop that fails to do so
is, in my opinion, a bit too casual about their liability and, therefore,
likely to be a bit too casual about my welfare.  I'm not surprised when the
shop askes me to check the gas too, but don't worry about those that don't.
I would expect the shop's analyzer to read the same for me as it did for
them.  I test every tank when it gets home and, once the gas in it is
confirmed, I remove the shop's sticker and add mine.  I use yellow duct tape
and a Sharpie to indicate the mix, the mod, the pressure and the date of the
test.  When it's time to dive,  I read what I previously wrote, set my
computer for the mix in the tank.  I then remove the duct tape to ensure
that I don't, later, mistake a partially full tank for a full one.  It works
for me . . . usually.

I'm sure I've told you the story about how I got bent, but maybe it will
help if others get a chance to read it too.  It happened three years ago on
my annual liveaboard spearfishing and lobstering trip, the one where I do 6
or 7 dives the first day, 7 dives the second day and 3 or 4 on the way back
to the docks.  I pay additional for 32% from the boat's membrane system.  I
arrived with my tanks full and carefully checked my first 3 or 4 fills
aboard.  All were spot on 32%.  The combination of accurate readings and a
frantic dive schedule combined led me to become complacent.  After all,
there was an analyzer on the gas supply and fully functioning membrane
systems are quite good at hitting the same mix, time after time.  What I
forgot was the human factor.

Sometime around the middle of the second day of diving, I noticed that there
were nitrox and air tanks hooked to whips at the same time.  While it was
possible that the boat had independent systems, I didn't think that was the
case.  Out comes my analyzer to see if there might be a problem.  Sure
enough, the tank I was getting ready to dive was 23% instead of 32%.  So was
the tank I had just finished diving.  As you can imagine, with a 6 or 7 dive
a day schedule, I was running close to my no deco limits on 32%.  I was well
over them on air.  About two hours later, my left elbow started feeling a
bit funny, a day and a half from the nearest recompression chamber.  That's
when I made my second mistake.  The first time I was bent, several years
before, it was my right elbow.  It started the same way and, after a few
hours in the chamber, left no noticable problem.  Surely, this one would be
the same.  I continued to dive, but increased my no deco margin and extended
my safety stops for the remainder of the trip.  My elbow didn't get better,
but it didn't get worse either.  I still figured time would heal any wound.
The day following the trip was the beginning of my wife's only vacation that
year.  Not wanting my mistake to screw her vacation up and still believing
that I would be fine without treatment, I still did not seek any medical
help.

Three years later, my elbow and two fingers on my left hand still give me
occasional discomfort.  It could be a lot worse, but it should have been a
lot better if only:
1. I'd checked my gas before every dive or
2. Insisted on treatment as soon as possible or
3. At least gone for treatment as soon as I was back on shore.

If you're going to be stupid, as I was this time, you have to be tough.

Next Monday, I'm leaving for another spearfishing/lobstering trip.  Just
last week, I went out and got an inflator barb/flow restricter for my
analyzer.  Instead of taking everyting out and testing before I attach my
regulator, I'll put everything together, open the valve and test directly
from the low pressure inflator hose of my regulator.  The current system is
both more accurate and a lot faster than was previously the case.  I don't
need to be any tougher.

Lee
JRE - 31 Jul 2005 00:39 GMT
<chop>

>Is it worth the price for a dedicated nitrox tank, or should I just
>buy a third air tank and rent the occasional nitrox?
>  

Do the math.  It costs me about $30/tank for hydro every 5 years, with
another $50 for O2 cleaning.  That's $16 a year plus another $15-$20 per
tank for visual inspection.  Find out what costs are at your LDS, add in
purchase price, and make a decision.

<snip>

John Eells
Scott - 31 Jul 2005 01:17 GMT
> <chop>
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> John Eells

a.shole.

Stop making proveable sense;

This is rec.scuba.

"Thid is a local shop, there is nothing for you here."  -- Roysten Vasey
Dillon Pyron - 31 Jul 2005 23:22 GMT
>> <chop>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> tank for visual inspection.  Find out what costs are at your LDS, add in
>> purchase price, and make a decision.

You forgot "You f.cking idiot"

>> <snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>This is rec.scuba.

At least there needs to be an insult to prove one incapable or
following the thought process.

>"Thid is a local shop, there is nothing for you here."  -- Roysten Vasey

Signature

dillon

Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way
of life.

And a damn fine one, at that.

Grumman-581 - 03 Aug 2005 14:53 GMT
> Is it worth the price for a dedicated nitrox tank, or should I just
> buy a third air tank and rent the occasional nitrox?

Here's a calculator for it... Fill in the appropriate values for the
costs around your area and then press the "Calc" button on the bottom
of the page... I think I included all the variables that might make a
difference on the final figure, but I suspect that if I missed any of
them, someone will gladly point it out to me...

http://www.geocities.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm
Grumman-581 - 03 Aug 2005 15:09 GMT
> http://www.geocities.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm

Hmmm... Something that geocities did to the HTML file when it put it's
headers in it on the upload caused it to no longer work... I'll look at
it later... Until then, here's the link to the original file... Copy it
to your local machine, rename it nitrox-calc.htm and then load it into
your browser...

http://www.geocities.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.txt
Grumman-581 - 06 Aug 2005 07:19 GMT
Found the problem in the HTML code... Seems that it FireFox handles
things a bit different than IE... Kind of surprising in that it would
work with FireFox if you had the file locally, but wouldn't work if you
had it on the web server which led me to believe that it was somthing
that Geocities was screwing up with their damn banner ads... Oh well,
it works now under both FireFox and IE...

http://www.geocities.com/grumman581/nitrox-calc.htm
 
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