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Scuba Forum / General / July 2005

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Incredible Dive Story

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nitespark - 17 Jul 2005 21:20 GMT
http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html
Marshall Karp - 18 Jul 2005 20:25 GMT
Wow
> http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html
Marshall Karp - 19 Jul 2005 14:25 GMT
Did ABC Nightline show this story last Friday?
Their website said you can buy the DVD of it.

> http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html
nitespark - 19 Jul 2005 17:39 GMT
> Did ABC Nightline show this story last Friday?
> Their website said you can buy the DVD of it.
>
>>http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html

I don't know.  A friend of mine sent me the link.
Scott - 19 Jul 2005 19:07 GMT
> I don't know.  A friend of mine sent me the link.

I have a several issues with the story and the information in it.

For one, the part about "a depth that no rebreather had ever been taken" is
wholly innacurate. Navy and commercial divers have been beating 1,000 feet
for literally decades, but with a PTC, heliox, and rebreathers that are
maintained to what would be considered NASA standards.

I also dont think that glorifying this act, or surrounding it with intrigue
is right, anyone doing dives like this is lucky to survive, regardless of
experience. For example, lets look at the number of participants compared to
survivors/fatalities.

How wise is it to leave your family to grieve in order to set a "record"
that is insignificant at best? Sounds cool at the bar, as long as the widow
isnt around.

"Recovering a body from the bottom of Bushman's Hole was a feat of
extraordinary danger, combining extreme depth and physical work, and Shaw
and Shirley were just the guys to pull it off."

But they didnt "pull it off", what they did was add another death, and, but
by the grace of God, almost two. And they left his skull on the bottom,
which I would hardly call a successful recovery.

The article is filled with the kind of sensationalism and hubris that gets
people killed, and will get people killed for years to come.

"The Hammerhead controller on his left forearm was a wreck." Not something I
brag about, but I did the CAD and protype work for Juergensen on the
Hammerhead, and the housing is made of acrylic, not because it is the best
material for the job, but because it was the least expensive. Which is
*exactly* one of the many reasons we parted ways. And this handset is not
the only one that has imploded. It should have been made of polycarbonate at
very least, and never taken to the depths these folks did under any
circumstances. But hey, to hell with safety, lets focus on profits, I mean
we are talking about a cost difference of $16 per handset before machining,
and actually, polycarb is much easier and more forgiving to machine than
acrylic, so it likely would have balanced out in the long run. I predicted
all the failures that have been plaguing the Hammerhead since day one, as
could anyone with talking brain cells. He also left the machine shop that
did his first two production runs holding the bag on over $9,000 and screwed
me to the tune of $2,500 at a time in my life that $2500 might as well have
been $25,000.

The scrubber in the rebreathers they were diving could not, and were never
designed to operate efficiently at those depths, *especially* with any
exertion whatever, and the O2 addition solenoid could also never keep up
with any exertion at that depth, period. Simple math. These guys were
playing Russian Roulette with 5 of the holes loaded with hollow points.

"Shaw should have done more buildup dives to increase his tolerance for
narcosis." is simply rediculous. Narcosis is affected by a thousand
integers, and can change day to day, dive to dive. If they had been diving
heliox, like they should have, narcosis likely wouldnt have been an issue.

Saying that Shaws death was "better than dying in a car crash" is simply
rediculous.

The whole thing was an absolutely avoidable tragedy, that was all but
guaranteed to go wrong by the ego's and motives involved.

I also dont think that Deon Dreyer would approve of anyone else losing their
life to make a recovery that could have, and should have, been done with an
RPV.

Ask Bob Ballard.
nitespark - 19 Jul 2005 21:04 GMT
>>I don't know.  A friend of mine sent me the link.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> that is insignificant at best? Sounds cool at the bar, as long as the widow
> isnt around.

No different than someone trying to jump a motorcycle over the Grand
Canyon, or someone climbing up the outside of a skyscraper when there is
a perfectly good elevator or stairway inside.

I don't know much about the capabilities of the Navy or commercial divers.

> "Recovering a body from the bottom of Bushman's Hole was a feat of
> extraordinary danger, combining extreme depth and physical work, and Shaw
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The article is filled with the kind of sensationalism and hubris that gets
> people killed, and will get people killed for years to come.

If the article is the impetus for someone to replicate the feat, then
the people obviously know the risks and assume them.
Alan Street - 19 Jul 2005 23:00 GMT
> "The Hammerhead controller on his left forearm was a wreck." Not something I
> brag about, but I did the CAD and protype work for Juergensen on the
> Hammerhead, and the housing is made of acrylic, not because it is the best
> material for the job, but because it was the least expensive. Which is
> *exactly* one of the many reasons we parted ways. And this handset is not
> the only one that has imploded.

Reading this reminded me of a "discussion" you had with Karl Denninger
last year:

>I know, you're proud that you can run it over with a SUV.  Never mind
>that such loads would never be experienced by a person diving it, but
>heh, who's counting, right?

<http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.scuba/msg/0675843d116de32e?dmod
e=source&hl=en>
Scott - 20 Jul 2005 15:42 GMT
> Reading this reminded me of a "discussion" you had with Karl Denninger
> last year:

Yeah, well, you know the deal, people always seem to know the most about
things they have never done.

Actually, it wasnt an SUV, it was about 7,000 pounds of Ford F250 4WD Truck
with a 460 engine (I really wouldnt want it on my foot).

We were just having fun one day after a marathon 2 weeks getting breathers
ready for Jill and Mark for The Cave movie, but it really seemed to piss a
lot of people, like Karl, off (when he isnt busy pissing people off
himself).

But, our handsets dont implode (copolymer acetal and a polycarb lens). At
around 1,000 psi, the acetal begins to flow like a liquid (according to FEA
testing), but it doesnt shatter and fail catastrohically. With acrylic, all
you need is a little scratch or other stress riser, and pop.

http://www.customrebreathers.com/just_for_fun.html
Geoff - 20 Jul 2005 00:44 GMT
>> Did ABC Nightline show this story last Friday?
>> Their website said you can buy the DVD of it.
>>
>>>http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html
>
>I don't know.  A friend of mine sent me the link.

Yes, they did the story. Yes, they showed the video. I was told about
the Nightline story by a diving buddy who saw the broadcast. I don't
know how much of the video they showed or how long they kept the audio
going on it since I won't spend the $4.95 they're asking to see a
crappy digital stream of it.
Steve - 20 Jul 2005 06:45 GMT
>>>Did ABC Nightline show this story last Friday?

> Yes, they did the story. Yes, they showed the video. I was told about
> the Nightline story by a diving buddy who saw the broadcast. I don't
> know how much of the video they showed or how long they kept the audio
> going on it

The entire Nightline program is 30 minutes, so minus the commercials the actual
program was perhaps 22 minutes. IIRC, they made a reference to the video "recording
the last 30 minutes of his life" or something similar. They only showed a few minutes
of it, and what they showed wasn't that interesting, IMHO. Based on what I saw I
wouldn't pay 49 cents to own a copy. FTM, I wouldn't watch the Outside/Nightline
program again for free.

The audio pretty much consisted of the sound of his breathing. That's noteworthy only
because it provides a clue to what killed him. As he tried to get the body into a
body bag it came loose from the bottom and became much more difficult to deal with.
He apparently  got too fixated on wrestling the body into the bag and started
exerting himself. They didn't say anything that I remember about the mix he was
breathing, but he began breathing it pretty hard and fast at something along the
lines of 27 ATA. Ironically enough, the (first) body was apparently slightly positive
and brought both bodies up to the ceiling where they were recovered fairly easily.

Those who didn't know much about diving at the start of the program probably wouldn't
know much more at the end, and those who already know a bit you aren't likely to
learn anything new.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Geoff - 20 Jul 2005 08:47 GMT
>>>>Did ABC Nightline show this story last Friday?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>wouldn't pay 49 cents to own a copy. FTM, I wouldn't watch the Outside/Nightline
>program again for free.

I didn't know Nightline was 30 minutes. I thought it was 1 hour. In
any case I'm sure there was insufficient coverage of the facts.

Outside magazine, the OP's original reference, is not affiliated with
ABC's Nightline as far as I know.

>The audio pretty much consisted of the sound of his breathing. That's noteworthy only
>because it provides a clue to what killed him. As he tried to get the body into a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>lines of 27 ATA. Ironically enough, the (first) body was apparently slightly positive
>and brought both bodies up to the ceiling where they were recovered fairly easily.

The Outside magazine article describes the recovery of both bodies on
page 8:

"They dropped to 300 feet and attached lifting buoys to the shot line
to raise the cylinders still at 500 feet to a more manageable depth.
When they returned to the surface, they were approached by police
diver Gert Nel, who had been helping to clear lines in the chimney.
"Did you see them?" Nel asked quietly. "See what?" Herbst asked. "The
bodies," Nel said. "We saw Deon and Dave stuck in the cave at 20
meters."

Herbst rested up and returned to the water. As soon as he cleared the
narrow neck of the chimney, his cave light locked on to Shaw, floating
eerily upright, his arms spread wide and the back of his head and
shoulders jammed against the ceiling. Shaw's light was hanging below.
Looped around it was the cave line he had attached to Deon in October,
and cradled almost perfectly in the line, its legs hanging down as if
on a swing, was the headless body of Deon Dreyer. Herbst realized that
Shaw's light must've gotten tangled in the cave line. When Herbst and
Roux had lifted the shot line with the buoys, it had pulled the cave
line—and with it Deon and Shaw—off the bottom. As Shaw ascended, the
gases in his body, as well as those in his suit, rebreather, and
buoyancy wing, had started to expand. Up he had gone, dragging Deon
with him."

>Those who didn't know much about diving at the start of the program probably wouldn't
>know much more at the end, and those who already know a bit you aren't likely to
>learn anything new.
greatviz - 20 Jul 2005 18:39 GMT
>>Ironically enough, the (first) body was apparently slightly positive
>>and brought both bodies up to the ceiling where they were recovered fairly easily.

> The Outside magazine article describes the recovery of both bodies on
> page 8:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> buoyancy wing, had started to expand. Up he had gone, dragging Deon
> with him."

Yes, a discrepancy in coverage.
IIRC, the Nightline program covered more than one topic that night and
did say something like "Ironically, it was Deon's body that brought up
Shaw's in the end"
I read the Outside article yesterday - there was better information
there than what was presented on the TV show.  The entire thing was just
tragic.  There was nothing for viewers to gain from hearing Shaw taking
his last breaths - just Nightline trying to boost ratings.
Marshall Karp - 20 Jul 2005 22:03 GMT
Agreed that this was tragic.  Sounds like a job for a professional recovery
team who could send a team down.

That said, a good lesson for us all that all the planning in the world may
not work and the risks to benefits need to be assessed.

I think we sometimes take too many things for granted with diving and this
article is a wise wake-up call for the rest of us.

Again, think about his article when the thought crosses your mind to try
something outside the box.
> http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200508/dave-shaw-1.html
Grumman-581 - 21 Jul 2005 05:24 GMT
> Agreed that this was tragic.  Sounds like a job for a professional recovery
> team who could send a team down.

Or just put a couple of gators into the spring / hole... They'll "recover"
any bodies in there...
 
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