Scuba Forum / General / April 2005
Suggestions for Good Fins?
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AZJ - 13 Apr 2005 17:29 GMT Hey guys- Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are great, and really get you going through the water with little effort. Can someone suggest a good brand/model (I know it also depends on how it fits for me) and a place to get it from for a decent price? I'm looking for fins for me and my girlfriend.
Also- I need to upgrade my mask- and suggestions there?
Thanks again... D
B Kiker - 13 Apr 2005 17:38 GMT I highly recommend the Atomic Split Fins. My wife and I personally use them. We do not use the full foot ones, as we perfer to wear booties, but I know Atomic makes a full foot version also.
Good luck and safe diving
> Hey guys- > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks again... > D GWB - 13 Apr 2005 19:53 GMT >I highly recommend the Atomic Split Fins. Mine are for sale. Used once.
TonyP - 13 Apr 2005 20:56 GMT >>I highly recommend the Atomic Split Fins.
> Mine are for sale. > Used once. How much.. what size and what color
arpierreATgmailDOTcom
GWB - 14 Apr 2005 00:41 GMT >How much.. what size and what color Black (dark gray) large, make an offer.
TonyP - 14 Apr 2005 23:46 GMT >>How much.. what size and what color
> Black (dark gray) large, make an offer. Size 12 foot diving dry. Using XL Blades right now. They fit fine. Would these be close to the equivalent?
Tony Howard - 17 Apr 2005 12:13 GMT > How much.. what size and what color WTF does the colour have to do with the quality of the fins?
Are you a diver or just a fashion buyer. I'll bet the dive shops love you!
If you keep buying crappy plastic (sorry, I meant 'Technopolymer' sic.) fins, then you should expect to be ripped off every couple of years.
If you get a good pair of nice solid rubber jetfins (NOT SplitJet) then they can last decades and are still unbeatable for propulsion (which is more a case of diver fitness anyway) and, used properly, wont stir up the sediment and destroy the dive for other divers.
That's my NSHO, however it's your cash!
Wes Adams - 13 Apr 2005 17:58 GMT Atomic Split are very nice, my wife uses them. What do you consider a decent price? Less that $150.00?? I still wear the Mares Avanti. It is the policy of quite a number of dive shops that purchased fins can be returned if only used in a pool. Not real open water use, but you should get a good feel for them. As far as the mask, get on that fits you. Personal favorites are the Tusa Liberator and Cressi Sub Horizon.
Larry Anta - 13 Apr 2005 18:04 GMT A split fin would slow you down when you really have to get somewhere in a hurry, which is one of the reasons I won't use them. Just my 2 cents.
> Hey guys- > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks again... > D Daniel Arrepas - 13 Apr 2005 18:06 GMT > Hey guys- > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are > great, and really get you going through the water with little effort. > Can someone suggest a good brand/model (I know it also depends on how > it fits for me) and a place to get it from for a decent price? I'm > looking for fins for me and my girlfriend. What works for me will not necessarily work for you. Go to a few shops and try various pairs in their pool (you will notice the differences). Apart from taking them diving with gear on and currents running, it's the best way. Fins are important, don't simply take another person's word.
Alan Street - 13 Apr 2005 18:32 GMT > Hey guys- > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are > great, and really get you going through the water with little effort. > Can someone suggest a good brand/model (I know it also depends on how > it fits for me) and a place to get it from for a decent price? I'm > looking for fins for me and my girlfriend. I'm not a fan of split fins. I've used Atomics and ScubaPro, and found them more of a gimic than a real improvement. They're easier to kick, but you don't get as much power out of them. They're also useless for finning backwards, and I found them much harder to use for sculling and fine movement.
If you can, I suggest renting a pair before buying them.
> Also- I need to upgrade my mask- and suggestions there? Whatever fits best.
> Thanks again... > D Douglas W. \ - 13 Apr 2005 18:39 GMT > Hey guys- > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are > great, and really get you going through the water with little effort. You need to slap whoever told you that (usually the salesguy with the shiny $200 fins in his hand).
Mares Quatrros are the best fins I've found, and it varies from person to person.
http://www.scuba.com/shop/product.asp?category=20
Halfway down the page.
You may find them 10 bucks cheaper, or on E-bay.
Rent or borrow whatever fins you plan on buying.
I tried 6 different kinds.
Don't be fooled by fins that are "easier" to kick, you're probably moving less water, and using more air.
You want the most -efficient- fin.
Some people like split fins, insist they are good, possibly because they just paid $200 for snake oil.
> Can someone suggest a good brand/model (I know it also depends on how > it fits for me) and a place to get it from for a decent price? I'm > looking for fins for me and my girlfriend. > > Also- I need to upgrade my mask- and suggestions there? Same advice.
How "good" a mask is or isn't depends on how well it fits, and each face is different.
I like Scubapro masks, but still occaisionally use a $15 wlamart mask I once bought.
-- One million Marines cannot seize Tarawa in a thousand years. Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, 4 days before his death.
frankmzd - 13 Apr 2005 20:19 GMT I am not sure about that efficiency issue. Usually I kick the fins really slow when diving, and don't care if I need 10 kicks to travel 30ft, or 100 (well, I am not really going *that* slow). So split fins or not does not matter. Some people get cramps when they use certain fins, so trying out a couple different types (as suggested already) is a good idea. But try them in a real dive situation, not just in the pool.
The atomic split fins have a quick release that easily gets jammed by sand or little pebbles. As a result you may not be able to open it (sucks when you try to exit the water in heavy surf and try to get your fins off in a hurry) or fully close it (kinda ends your dive right there on the beach before you even enter the water). How designers can overlook/screw up such a basic thing is beyond me. Kinda like designing a fancy sports car with an ignition system that only works occasionally.
Consider a bright color for the fins. You may stand out a little too much for your liking on the beach , but under water in bad visibility your buddy will appreciate.
Douglas W. Popeye Frederick wrote:
> > Hey guys- > > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Mares Quatrros are the best fins I've found, and it varies from person to > person. Douglas W. \ - 13 Apr 2005 20:43 GMT > I am not sure about that efficiency issue. Usually I kick the fins > really slow when diving, and don't care if I need 10 kicks to travel > 30ft, or 100 (well, I am not really going *that* slow). So split fins > or not does not matter. Perfectly true for you, but a -very- narrow viewpoint.
More kicks to travel is more air consumed, and a shorter dive.
If you take nice leisurely dives all the time, fair enough.
But fighting too hard to make an anchorline in current is a risk of excessive air consumption, CO2 problems, and an open ocean boat chase for some of us.
I took fins to the community center pool, and made notes on times to cover a distance underwater, and leg cramping.
Jetfins, for instance, were as efficient as Quats, but felt like cinderblocks on my feet and caused cramping.
Twinjets weren't even close.
YMMY, George Horn, one of the most experience divers I know, swears by Force Fins, which I don't think are worth carrying to the dumpster.
> Some people get cramps when they use certain > fins, so trying out a couple different types (as suggested already) is [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > person to > > person. -- One million Marines cannot seize Tarawa in a thousand years. Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, 4 days before his death.
TonyP - 13 Apr 2005 20:59 GMT Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
> YMMY, George Horn, one of the most experience divers I know, swears by > Force Fins, which I don't think are worth carrying to the dumpster. There are a few up here (NY) that dive with them also. They seem to get around pretty good. Me, I have had Blades since "day 1" and really don't see the need for change. I still would like to try one of the split fins though. Just to see what all the "talk" (both negative and positive) are about.
Al Wells - 13 Apr 2005 22:00 GMT > Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > though. Just to see what all the "talk" (both negative and positive) are > about. If you want to see what split fins are like, just drive your car around in only first gear. You get going really easily, but you're working hard for a low top end.
They gave the Navy EOD guys in Charleston Twin Jets, and they put duct tape over the split.
Douglas W. \ - 13 Apr 2005 22:01 GMT > Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > though. Just to see what all the "talk" (both negative and positive) are > about. Spend a day with a Split on one foot and a Quat on the other, all your questions will be answered. :-)
Charlie Hammond - 14 Apr 2005 12:24 GMT > Spend a day with a Split on one foot and a Quat on the other, all your >questions will be answered. :-) Actually, most people will figure this out after swiming in circles for far less that a full day! <smile>
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Grumman-581 - 14 Apr 2005 12:56 GMT > Actually, most people will figure this out after swiming in circles for > far less that a full day! <smile> I have to wonder if the answer is that simple... Is it possible that a certain type of fin by either being smaller or being split would allow you to kick faster and thus it's cadence might make it more efficient? That's more or less the philosophy for the various gears on bicycles -- the racers want to keep their cadence at a particular value regardless of whether they're going uphill or on the straight and level... Then again, they have an unlimited air supply...
Larry Anta - 14 Apr 2005 14:45 GMT > [...] Is it possible that a
> certain type of fin by either being smaller or being split would allow you > to kick faster and thus it's cadence might make it more efficient? That's > more or less the philosophy for the various gears on bicycles -- the racers > want to keep their cadence at a particular value regardless of whether > they're going uphill or on the straight and level. [...] I suppose a rough equivalent in the finning world would be a fin that dynamically changed shape (or changed rigidity, or changed some other attribute) according the diver's changing needs.
Maybe you're gently finning near a coral with some split fins, then some serious current comes along and you want some additional thrust and the split "heals" into a full fin. Something like that. (Pie in the sky, I know.)
At least with the Reeflexes I use I can change one attribute: ridigity, but it's certainly not dynamic. You can't (reasonably) change the rigidity during a dive. In my case, probably like most Reeflex owners, I set it to some tension that is reasonable for myself and just leave it like that for all my dives.
The way I look at, there are really just two coarse factors: Are my legs getting tired or cramped too often? Do I have enough thrust when I need it?
Lee Bell - 14 Apr 2005 18:53 GMT > I suppose a rough equivalent in the finning world would be a fin that > dynamically changed shape (or changed rigidity, or changed some other > attribute) according the diver's changing needs. That's just what my Mares fins do. They have flexible channels, two, three or four depending on which model I'm using, that deform with each kick. The harder you kick, the more they deform, changing shape of the bladed depending on how you are kicking which, presumably, relates to what you're trying to do.
Lee
greatviz - 14 Apr 2005 16:00 GMT >> Spend a day with a Split on one foot and a Quat on the other, all your >>questions will be answered. :-) > > Actually, most people will figure this out after swiming in circles for > far less that a full day! <smile> The kicks used are significantly different. And, unless you are young or in terrific shape, the leg with a stiff, solid fin will cramp up first and you'll be left with only one working leg before the "day" ends.
Douglas W. \ - 14 Apr 2005 16:30 GMT > >> Spend a day with a Split on one foot and a Quat on the other, all your > >>questions will be answered. :-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > or in terrific shape, the leg with a stiff, solid fin will cramp up > first and you'll be left with only one working leg before the "day" ends. That's pretty subjective, though.
I'm neither young nor in good shape, and the only fin I've seen that I would describe as solid and stiff is a Jetfin/derivative.
Most of the plastic fins seem pretty flexible to me, but I weigh a sixth of a ton.
-- One million Marines cannot seize Tarawa in a thousand years. Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, 4 days before his death.
greatviz - 14 Apr 2005 22:45 GMT Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
>>The kicks used are significantly different. And, unless you are young >>or in terrific shape, the leg with a stiff, solid fin will cramp up >>first and you'll be left with only one working leg before the "day" ends. > > That's pretty subjective, though. It is. I use less/smaller muscles more often while kicking the Bios and more/larger muscles less often with the Mares. I don't discern a large difference in my air consumption either way. In my own little pool test, I was a bit quicker with the Bios. I could compare a split to another split by wearing a Twin Jet and a Bio on opposite feet to some extent because the kicks are the same. But I could only compare the Bios to the Mares by doing laps and timing myself. Kicking consistently different with my right leg as opposed to my left surpasses my skill and coordination. Hardly a scientific endeavor, but somewhat entertaining and I didn't want to spend the $$$ until I had convinced myself that I would like using them.
> I'm neither young nor in good shape, and the only fin I've seen that I > would describe as solid and stiff is a Jetfin/derivative. I admit that is one of the first fins to come to mind with that description, even though they are vented and not really "solid" in that respect. I made a general statement comparing qualities of "the splits" vs. "the paddles" rather than isolating the statement to the Quattros specifically; but since all the splits got thrown into one category, I figured why not. Generalities don't often hold up to scrutiny.
The Quattros are probably just a bit more flexible than my Avantis and I actually do like them. OTOH, I like the Bios especially in places where I do primarily shore dives and thus quite a bit more swimming. The argument that they won't keep up with a pair of Mares in regards to swimming; my experience is that they can and with less leg fatigue.
> Most of the plastic fins seem pretty flexible to me, but I weigh a sixth > of a ton.
:)
> -- > One million Marines cannot seize Tarawa in a thousand years. > Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, 4 days before his death. Charlie Hammond - 14 Apr 2005 17:43 GMT >The kicks used are significantly different. And, unless you are young >or in terrific shape, the leg with a stiff, solid fin will cramp up >first and you'll be left with only one working leg before the "day" ends. I cannot qualify as either "young" or "in terrific shape", but I have experienced cramps with both my Blades and with Force Fins (r).
While some fins may be less prone to cause cramps for some divers, this issue is grossly overrated.
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
AZJ - 13 Apr 2005 21:04 GMT wow- now I'm THOROUOGHLY confused! My buddy just told me, and SWEARS by the Scuba Pro adjustable Twin Jet Fins. They ARE a split fin design, but, swears that he barely moves his leg a little, and it gets him going QUICK. To me, most of the time I am using my fins as guidance and to gently get going. Sure, there's times when you gotta swim to a location, but- underwater, I want as little movement as possible. Has anyone bought these or have input about them? They are a wider, shorter design than most fins. But my friends all use them and LOVE them- won't buy anything else. Beyond testing them myself, if you have any suggestions on these, I'm open to it...
As far as masks go- my current one is 5-6 years old and leaks constantly. It sucks. Time for a new mask. Yes, I gotta test fit them, but- how do you REALLY know in the shop? Many of them FEEL like they fit well- but you never know until you test them out. Any suggestions on finding a good fit? Thanks D
Larry Anta - 13 Apr 2005 21:25 GMT > [...]Yes, I gotta test fit them, > but- how do you REALLY know in the shop? Many of them FEEL like they > fit well- but you never know until you test them out. Any suggestions > on finding a good fit? > Thanks > D When you're in the shop, place the mask over your face but don't put the strap on. Inhale through your nose slightly and lean forward and shake your head. If the mask falls off, or feels like it's about to, it's not a good fit.
AZJ - 13 Apr 2005 21:59 GMT yeah, see- I've tried that mask fit test before- I've never found one that fits like that. Damn- what's that say about my face? I dont think I'm THAT ugly... LOL...
Larry Anta - 13 Apr 2005 21:32 GMT > wow- now I'm THOROUOGHLY confused! My buddy just told me, and SWEARS by > the Scuba Pro adjustable Twin Jet Fins. They ARE a split fin design, > but, swears that he barely moves his leg a little, and it gets him > going QUICK. [...] I use Turtles with my drysuit and Reeflex's with my wet suit. Both are full fins. One kinda neat thing about the Reeflex's is that they have hard-plastic adjustable inserts inside the fin body itself. You move the rigid plastic further down the fin body to get more thrust (at the expense of needing more energy).
Nice compromise because you get exactly the rigidity that suits you. It comes with a special tool to move the placstic thingies back and forth.
Douglas W. \ - 13 Apr 2005 22:27 GMT > wow- now I'm THOROUOGHLY confused! My buddy just told me, and SWEARS by > the Scuba Pro adjustable Twin Jet Fins. There's four possible reasons for that.
1) He believed what the salesman said, while buying a proportionally expensive product. Dive shops push what they sell. When you walk into a Chevy dealer, they don't expound on the qualities of a Dodge. I dunno if you are new, but, this is a basic and often missed philosophy of buying scuba gear anywhere. Whatever they have or can get, is what you "need".
2) They were his first fins, and he simply doesn't know any better. This is a very common misperception in the scuba world.
3) His last fins were major POSs like Tusa Liberators, in which case bungie strapping old license plates on his feet would have been a major improvement.
4) Theoretically speaking, we all have different legs that move in different ways. These fins may actually be more efficient for him. But opinion wise, he is definately in a minority, and just because they work well for him, or Quats work well for me, doesn't mean you'll get the same result.
> They ARE a split fin design, > but, swears that he barely moves his leg a little, and it gets him [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thanks > D http://www.huntzinger.com/dive/strokes/archive/popeye3.jpg
http://www.huntzinger.com/dive/strokes/archive/rich.jpg
Two different faces.
Will the same mask work equally well on both?
I can tell you one thing within my experience, and, that is that price is irrellevent.
Halcyon makes a mask for about $50 bucks that's as good as I've seen. My backup Akona mask was $22 bucks, and works great.
My regular mask is a Scubapro semi-frameless.
-- One million Marines cannot seize Tarawa in a thousand years. Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, 4 days before his death.
Chris Guynn - 13 Apr 2005 23:12 GMT > 3) His last fins were major POSs like Tusa Liberators, in which case > bungie strapping old license plates on his feet would have been a major > improvement. Hey, I use Liberators... oh, no, wait, I use the Imprex... my wife uses the Liberators... never mind. ;-)
Charlie Hammond - 14 Apr 2005 12:17 GMT >wow- now I'm THOROUOGHLY confused! You're not the first and won't be the last! <smile>
> My buddy just told me, and SWEARS by >the Scuba Pro adjustable Twin Jet Fins. They ARE a split fin design, >but, swears that he barely moves his leg a little, and it gets him >going QUICK. ... Because split type fins provide less resistance when you kick they often seem easier to use. However, this is purely SUBJECTIVE. I have never seen a verifiable, objective test that shows them to be more efficient.
Good tests are expesive to perform. You need a pool or tank that has a mechansim that will maintain a constant current to swim againsst. You also need equipment that can measer accurately and precisely the subjects resiration.
In the past, such tests have shown that good, conventional fins yield the lowest respiration for a given swimming speed. Resipration is an indicator of the work being done: Lower respiration means less work, which indicates greater efficiency.
Of course you are out there to have FUN, so maximum efficiency may not be the most important issue for you. However, if you take the time to get used to a good pair of conventional fins, I think you will be satisfied and maximize your recreational pleasure.
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Lee Bell - 14 Apr 2005 12:51 GMT >> My buddy just told me, and SWEARS by >>the Scuba Pro adjustable Twin Jet Fins. They ARE a split fin design, >>but, swears that he barely moves his leg a little, and it gets him >>going QUICK. ... Borrow your buddy's fins and try them for youself.
> Because split type fins provide less resistance when you kick they > often seem easier to use. However, this is purely SUBJECTIVE. > I have never seen a verifiable, objective test that shows them to > be more efficient. Then you have not been looking. When they first came out, test results were all over the place.
> In the past, such tests have shown that good, conventional fins yield > the lowest respiration for a given swimming speed. Resipration is an > indicator of the work being done: Lower respiration means less work, > which indicates greater efficiency. While it is certainly important to divers. respiration is not a valid indicator of the work being done.
Lee
Matthias Voss - 14 Apr 2005 13:15 GMT >>In the past, such tests have shown that good, conventional fins yield >>the lowest respiration for a given swimming speed. Resipration is an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lee The respiratory quotient, taken under lab conditions, is. I saw it measured while the diver was wearing a harness which allowed him to swim against the constant pull of a self-settable weight, and a FFM which allowed to retrieve the exhaled gas.
Matthias
Charlie Hammond - 14 Apr 2005 13:47 GMT >> Because split type fins provide less resistance when you kick they >> often seem easier to use. However, this is purely SUBJECTIVE. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Then you have not been looking. When they first came out, test results were >all over the place. I saw lots of marketing claims; I saw no verifiable, objective test results. If you can point me to such, I'll acknowledge my error; otherwise, I stand by what I said.
>While it is certainly important to divers. respiration is not a valid >indicator of the work being done. I disagree. Respiration is a direct indicator of the amount of CO2 being produced, which is a direct indicator of the amount of oxygen being used. O.K., technically this indicates the amount of energy being used -- I/we tend to confuse "work" and "energy". So to claify, a lower respiration at the same swimming speed would indicate less energy for the same work -- i.e. greater efficiency.
If you wanted to get really exact, you could could measure the amount of O2 in the breathing gas breathed in and breathed out. That would make testing harder and more expensive; I doubt it would show a significant difference in efficiency comparisons.
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Matthias Voss - 14 Apr 2005 17:10 GMT > I saw lots of marketing claims; I saw no verifiable, objective test results. > If you can point me to such, I'll acknowledge my error; otherwise, I stand > by what I said. Try lifting weights. The more you can support... A good fin/diver pair should be able to lift more than 15kp.
Matthias
greatviz - 14 Apr 2005 15:46 GMT > wow- now I'm THOROUOGHLY confused! My buddy just told me, and SWEARS by > the Scuba Pro adjustable Twin Jet Fins. They ARE a split fin design, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > them- won't buy anything else. Beyond testing them myself, if you have > any suggestions on these, I'm open to it... My DB has the grey Twin Jets and loves them. I tried them against my fins and wouldn't want them. I have the Apollo Bio Fins, they are "floppy" black rubber split fins - but I seem to get around pretty quick despite that fact and I thought they were fine in the moderate currents of Cozumel. At least, I had no difficulty keeping up with the DM whenever he booked off to point out a creature he spotted off in the distance or when I turned around to go back and look at something.
I also have Mares Avantis, they feel like heavy shoes on my feet compared to the Bios, but I can backup and scull easier with them. The kick I use is totally different for those 2 fins. As you can see from all the responses, you really need to try them out for yourself. Here's some charts and stuff I had bookmarked, and yes I know some of the test "results" may be influenced by advertising $$$. They are older charts, so you won't see the latest and greatest on them.
http://www.divernet.com/gear/fins999/fintab999.htm
http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/grier/fins-synopsis.html
http://dive.scubadiving.com/html/200307fins_chart.html
http://www.scubadiving.com/gear/fins/rumble_in_the_jungle%3a_scuba_fin_smackdown/4/
> As far as masks go- my current one is 5-6 years old and leaks > constantly. It sucks. Time for a new mask. Yes, I gotta test fit them, > but- how do you REALLY know in the shop? Many of them FEEL like they > fit well- but you never know until you test them out. Any suggestions > on finding a good fit? Try fitting with a snorkel in your mouth because that will distort your face similarly to a regulator and then inhale just -very- slightly through your nose. Or, find a shop with a pool and get your mask there.
> Thanks > D Charlie Hammond - 13 Apr 2005 21:09 GMT >I am not sure about that efficiency issue. Usually I kick the fins >really slow when diving, and don't care if I need 10 kicks to travel >30ft, or 100 (well, I am not really going *that* slow). So split fins >or not does not matter. ... Opinion: Slow easy kicking with relatively large, stiff fins is most efficient
Fact: Sooner or later one of those easy, calm recreational dives will turn into a dive with current and/or rough surface conditions. When that happens to you, you will NEED fins that are powerful and efficient. It WILL matter.
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
frankmzd - 13 Apr 2005 23:00 GMT >When that happens to you, It already did ;-)
>you will NEED fins... Sure, but how many people are selecting their fins by the thrust/efficiency? I am sure not all "normal" fins are the same either. Add to that people not using the right technique (bend the knees etc.)... Maybe someone has numbers on thrust/air consumption comparing various normal and split fins. The difference may not be all that big.
Bryan had two good points though that speak against buying split fins.
Scott - 13 Apr 2005 21:30 GMT > > Hey guys- > > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > I like Scubapro masks, but still occaisionally use a $15 wlamart mask I > once bought. Pure gold.
Turtles are kick a.s too.
Charlie Hammond - 13 Apr 2005 19:52 GMT BLADES fins by US Divers/Aqualung, and PLANA AVANTI QUATTRO fins by Mares have consistently tied for top honors. I would recomend either of these. There are many other choices that as good or nearly so.
Split type fins, as well as the types of fins produced by Force Fins (r) have there advocates. Unfortunatly, there is no evidence known to me that supports the argument that these are "better". In fact -- or at least in my opinion -- conventional type fins are:
More efficient -- as evidenced by studies that show they require lower breathing rates to maintain the same speed. (Tests by the same divers using different fins in different tests.)
More powerful -- as evidenced by my own experiences and by the experiences reported by most divers who have tried various types of fins.
Note that Split type fins and Force Fins (r) often seem to be a lot easier to kick. However, they require much more kicking to get the job done; hence they are actually more work to use.
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
HES van Schoonhoven - 13 Apr 2005 21:03 GMT On any given dive it should not matter what you wear on your feet. You're not going to catch a train, are you?
Only when you get yourself in a situation ... then you want max power and max efficiency from your fins. And then all the fancy stuff like split fins and pivotting blades and what other marketing sh.t they peddle will let you down. Guaranteed.
Regard your fins, as you regard all those airbags in your car. Take them for granted. But make sure they deliver when you really need them.
When you take a hard look at the dynamics of fins, only Quattro's, Tres, Blades and the likes really have something tangible going for them. And if these don't work for you after all, you can still make split fins out if them. With a carpet knife. (LOL)
 Signature HES van Schoonhoven Life is a learning experience
> BLADES fins by US Divers/Aqualung, and PLANA AVANTI QUATTRO fins by Mares > have consistently tied for top honors. I would recomend either of these. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > to kick. However, they require much more kicking to get the job done; > hence they are actually more work to use. Scott - 13 Apr 2005 21:30 GMT > On any given dive it should not matter what you wear on your feet. > You're not going to catch a train, are you? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > these don't work for you after all, you can still make split fins out if > them. With a carpet knife. (LOL) Excellent.
Bryan Heit - 13 Apr 2005 21:13 GMT As you may have noticed the opinions are polarized about split vs solid fins. Personally speaking I fall on the solid-fin-is-best side, so take what I say appropriately.
Generally speaking split fins are easier to move through the water. This is due to the fact that they are more flexible, and flex in additional places, in comparison to a solid fin. However, the flexibility means that you're loosing water displacement - in plain English they're easier to move through the water, but generate less thrust per kick. As such you have to move splits faster then solid fins to achieve the same amount of thrust.
So basically when choosing between split and solid fins, you're really choosing between kicking slow (but with greater force) or fast (with less force). Most experienced divers will tell you slow is always better underwater. My personal experience is that I get much less tiered and use much less air when I use solid fins. Maybe I can't motor along as fast on solids, but IMO going fast = missing a lot of cool s*it. Plus I can move pretty damn fast on solids if I need to.
But the biggest difference between the fins, and the best argument against splits, is their ability to develop "spontaneous" power. If you kick a sold fin hard (say when getting into the boat) you get a large amount of thrust, and thus with a single stroke can move quite a distance. Since splits are so much more flexible they bend, and you don't get nearly as much force. This can make getting into a boat, swimming against strong currents, etc, much harder. This is especially an issue for technical divers and cold water divers as we tend to carry a lot of weight, so getting into a boat isn't always the most trivial of tasks.
Lastly, it is near-impossible to swim backwards in splits. Many divers do not swim backwards, but it is a useful skill (positioning yourself for photography, hunting, wreak/cave penetration, better mobility in general, etc). IMO backwards swimming should be a basic skill you need for OW cert, but its not...
the main points, quick and dirty:
Splits: 1) Easier to move through water 2) Have to kick them fast to generate thrust 3) *May* use less air 4) Higher top speed
Solids: 1) Don't have to kick fast to get thrust 2) Harder to move through the water 2) More "instantaneous" power 3) In my experience use less energy/air 4) Can swim backwards 5) Cheaper
As for masks, the one which fits is the best one for you. I have Big Eye's and love'em - but you pretty much need a mutant face to fit into a set of those.
Bryan
Douglas W. \ - 13 Apr 2005 21:54 GMT > As you may have noticed the opinions are polarized about split vs solid > fins. Personally speaking I fall on the solid-fin-is-best side, so take [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Bryan Excellently said.
Bryan Heit - 13 Apr 2005 22:42 GMT Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote: <snip>
> Excellently said. The fin stuff, or having a mutant face :-D
Bryan
Douglas W. \ - 13 Apr 2005 23:24 GMT > Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote: > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Bryan Ever seen my face?
A cinderblock, with ears. :-)
-- One million Marines cannot seize Tarawa in a thousand years. Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, 4 days before his death.
HES van Schoonhoven - 14 Apr 2005 10:05 GMT Funny thing: leafing through a few brochures you can only conclude that the diving industry themselves haven't got an clou about how fins work. They just cater for all kinds of fuzzy beliefs, that they feed with vague mumbo jumbo about vortices and optimized angles and what have you. If they really had any clear concept, they would make just the one kind of their conviction and stand by their choice. Furthermore they would be able to explain their concept in a clear an convincing way. Not so.
Still it should not be so hard. Any blade with an area of 'X' square inches will displace exactly the same amound of water in one stroke as the next blade with the same effective area, providing it moves at the same angle. Now there you'll find very little differences in the fins in the market place. Dimensions really don't differ that much.
The one decisive factor is where the displaced water goes. With stiff flat blades the water will spill in al directions. Split fins just lose half of it through their splits; never mind those vortices and other fairy tales. And fins that have substantial longitudinal channels, or even better, fins that flex into channels, send the water backwards; in the opposite direction of were you want to go. Action equals reaction and the result is what we call 'thrust'.
On any normal dive the whole debate on fin design should be pointless. You need your fins more to stabilize yourself in the water then anything else. You just flutter a bit to move from one thing to see to the other. Fins only become important when you have distances to cover, when things get tough, in smaller or bigger emergencies. And then you need al the 'thrust' you can get.
 Signature HES van Schoonhoven Life is a learning experience
"Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick" <Buzcutt454@aol.com> schreef in bericht news:115r1o9a29fko63@news.supernews.com...
> >> As you may have noticed the opinions are polarized about split vs solid [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Excellently said. Charlie Hammond - 14 Apr 2005 12:33 GMT >Still it should not be so hard. Perhaps it should not be hared, but it is.
In another posting I suggested a methodology for testing fins' efficiency. It requires a considerable amount of fairly expensive equipment. i.e., it is NOT something that a couple of guys can do while drinking beer on a sunny saturday afternoon.
But then, when you have the objective, repeatable results, you come to the really hard part: You have to convince real divers that their long-held, subjective opinions are wrong. Now THAT is H.A.R.D.!
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Douglas W. \ - 14 Apr 2005 13:14 GMT > But then, when you have the objective, repeatable results, you come to the > really hard part: You have to convince real divers that their long-held, > subjective opinions are wrong. Now THAT is H.A.R.D.! I learned this the hard way, Rec.scuba style.
My first set of gear, well modified, worked pretty good.
With my 19 inch calves, I never had any trouble leading the pack with my fins.
Tusa Liberators. The chick that sold them to me has a stunningly perfect a.s.
That tends to be a major factor in many of my life's decisions.
So my best friend, DiveBudKevin, had been diving for a shorter time than me, but had fallen in with evil cave diving companions right off the bat.
He was looking to buy his first set of fins.
I said, try my Liberators, they kick a.s.
He said, those things are the biggest PsOS made, try these Quatts.
He had read and researched well.
The Quatts were a stunning difference.
I have three pairs, and a pair of Jetfins.
I got a nice ego bitchslap, and learned a valuable lesson.
Charlie Hammond - 14 Apr 2005 13:49 GMT > Tusa Liberators. The chick that sold them to me has a stunningly perfect >a.s. Damn good reason to buy those fins!
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Alan Street - 14 Apr 2005 14:52 GMT > > Tusa Liberators. The chick that sold them to me has a stunningly perfect > >a.s. > > Damn good reason to buy those fins! And quite a bit else. I'm sure it's a key part of the H.U.B.'s marketing campaign.
Douglas W. \ - 14 Apr 2005 14:58 GMT > ? In article <115snksmdm3h60f@news.supernews.com>, > ? "Douglas W. \"Popeye\" Frederick" <Buzcutt454@aol.com> writes: > ? > ? > Tusa Liberators. The chick that sold them to me has a stunningly perfect
> ? >a.s. > ? > ? Damn good reason to buy those fins! > > And quite a bit else. I'm sure it's a key part of the H.U.B.'s > marketing campaign. <cough>
Lee Bell - 14 Apr 2005 18:53 GMT > The chick that sold them to me has a stunningly perfect > a.s. That tends to be a major factor in many of my life's decisions.
> I got a nice ego bitchslap, and learned a valuable lesson. Lesson shown above. Some things are worth taking a bitch slap over. A stunningly perfect a.s on a woman is one of them. So's a tree frog tattoo on the foot.
Lee
Rick Simms - 15 Apr 2005 17:37 GMT >> The chick that sold them to me has a stunningly perfect >> a.s. That tends to be a major factor in many of my life's decisions. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Lee Well said!
Rick Simms *********************************************** "Some days you just have to sit and drink beer while resisting the urge to jump up and do the, "Hold my beer and watch this sh.t!", thing."
C. Palmer (03-2005)
John Mason Jr - 14 Apr 2005 22:01 GMT Douglas W. "Popeye" Frederick wrote:
>>But then, when you have the objective, repeatable results, you come to the >>really hard part: You have to convince real divers that their long-held, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > That tends to be a major factor in many of my life's decisions. Been there done that
John
HES van Schoonhoven - 14 Apr 2005 13:26 GMT Hey Charlie,
You write:
> In another posting I suggested a methodology for testing fins' efficiency. > It requires a considerable amount of fairly expensive equipment. i.e., it > is NOT something that a couple of guys can do while drinking beer on a > sunny saturday afternoon. Ah yes, you're most certanly right. There is this swimming leg in thet log tank at the University of Genoa, paid up for by Mares ...
> But then, when you have the objective, repeatable results, and that one generates repeatable results. And then we see that some very good designs spring from those tests. However, then they developed the Volo and that obviously did well enough on the swimming robot, too, to put it into production. But you just need to make a few laps in the pool to see where the severe limitations of these fins lie. They fail at the moment you most want them.
> you come to the really hard part: You have to convince real divers > that their long-held, subjective opinions are wrong. > Now THAT is H.A.R.D.! There is however a very, very simple field test, that everybody can do right in the shop.
Take the fin under your arm, so that you firmly support the footpocket. Then press down with your free hand in the middle at the end of the blade and see how it bends. A poor fin will bend evenly but stay flat. A porer fin will kink. A beter fin will bend evenly but ply into a channel at the same time.
Oh well, I will send you a picture.
 Signature HES van Schoonhoven Life is a learning experience
Matthias Voss - 14 Apr 2005 17:08 GMT > Hey Charlie, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > and that one generates repeatable results. But none relevant, since it does not simulate an accurate leg's motion, neither does it, or any other similar devices, reflect the different leverages in divers, as well as the rest of the bodies contribution in terms of inertia, area, muscle tension.
> And then we see that some very good designs spring from those tests. > However, then they developed the Volo and that obviously did well enough on > the swimming robot, too, to put it into production. > But you just need to make a few laps in the pool to see where the severe > limitations of these fins lie. > They fail at the moment you most want them.
> There is however a very, very simple field test, that everybody can do right > in the shop. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > A porer fin will kink. > A beter fin will bend evenly but ply into a channel at the same time. Not necessarily. Free diving blades want. A Scubapro Squidfin will, and that is an 1970ies design, far superior than anything maresnumbered, and most others.
A good fin will be springy and, on release have a substantial kickback.
Matthias
Chris Guynn - 13 Apr 2005 23:16 GMT <snip>
> As for masks, the one which fits is the best one for you. I have Big > Eye's and love'em - but you pretty much need a mutant face to fit into a > set of those. I use the Big Eyes too... :-)
It's a huge difference from my previous mask which was basically a pair of googles with a face skirt.
Lee Bell - 13 Apr 2005 23:22 GMT > Hey guys- > Time to upgrade my fins- I hear the kind with the 'split' in them are > great, and really get you going through the water with little effort. Try them. Then you'll know if they are for you and, if so, which one is best for you.
> Also- I need to upgrade my mask- and suggestions there? Yep. Get one with a glass lens that fits properly.
Lee
Anders Knudsen - 15 Apr 2005 20:45 GMT I have only one thing to say : Turtle fins with ss spring heels, plane and simple but very efficient for all kind of propulsion techniques .
JJ>
Stiff blade fins pushed by a diver with good leg strength generate a maximum amount of thrust, such fins are very popular among divers that require the ability to swim quickly, move against strong currents, or push large amounts of equipment through the water. less rigid fins will work when pushing less equipment or when less power is desired. the best practise for divers is to use the same gear all the time. divers should remove all plastic buckles from there fins and substitute for them stronger attachment springs.
Anders Knudsen
Douglas W. \ - 15 Apr 2005 22:59 GMT > I have only one thing to say : Turtle fins with ss spring heels, plane > and simple but very efficient for all kind of propulsion techniques . [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Anders Knudsen There's a lot of unsupportable opinion there.
-- One million Marines cannot seize Tarawa in a thousand years. Admiral Keiji Shibasaki, 4 days before his death.
AZJ - 16 Apr 2005 21:36 GMT my gawd! Reading this thread you'd think I asked about abortion, whether or not Jesus really lived, or if PC or MAC was better! LMAO!!!
There's certainly a TON of opinions out there- most do NOT like the split fins. Thats ok- maybe you didnt adapt your kick to them when you tried them out. Maybe you've worn your old shitty fins for 15 years and then tried these ones out. Or maybe, they're just shitty fins. Either way, I really thank you all for your opinions and input- and moreso- the time you put INTO posting them. I bought the Twin Jets. Im jumping in a pool this weekend and testing them out. If I dont like them, then Im taking them back and keeping MY old shitty fins ;). I'll let you guys know how I feel about them.
Thanks again... btw- this seems like a great group- all these posts, strong opinions, and NOONE flaming another. I love it, and am excited to be a part of it. Just by chance, anyone going to be in St Thomas, Tortola, Nassau, Half Moon Cay, or the FL Keys in 2 weeks (ie- 4/30-5/7)? Let me know...
Greg Mossman - 17 Apr 2005 19:09 GMT > my gawd! Reading this thread you'd think I asked about abortion, > whether or not Jesus really lived, or if PC or MAC was better! LMAO!!! Why would any of those topics spark debate?
> There's certainly a TON of opinions out there- most do NOT like the > split fins. Thats ok- maybe you didnt adapt your kick to them when you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Im taking them back and keeping MY old shitty fins ;). I'll let you > guys know how I feel about them. Please keep your opinion to yourself. No one cares.
> Thanks again... btw- this seems like a great group- all these posts, > strong opinions, and NOONE flaming another. I love it, and am excited > to be a part of it. Just by chance, anyone going to be in St Thomas, > Tortola, Nassau, Half Moon Cay, or the FL Keys in 2 weeks (ie- > 4/30-5/7)? Let me know... A cruiser. Big surprise.
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