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Scuba Forum / General / March 2005

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When is a Dive Club Not a Dive Club?

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Larry Anta - 10 Mar 2005 20:21 GMT
I have a  (Canadian) liability question to do with diving.  Are the founding
members of a "dive club" liable for accidents that occur to members of that
club even if the club goes to great lengths to make it clear to its members
(via a waiver) that there will be no divemasters for the dives?
TonyP - 10 Mar 2005 22:45 GMT
> I have a  (Canadian) liability question to do with diving.  Are the founding
> members of a "dive club" liable for accidents that occur to members of that
> club even if the club goes to great lengths to make it clear to its members
> (via a waiver) that there will be no divemasters for the dives?

Did you read and sign the waiver obsolving the dive club of liabilites?
If yes, then I would would have to say "no", they aren't liable.
Ask our "resident" legal beagel... Greg. But then, lawyers will always
tell you that you have a case.. just pony up the money.
JOF - 10 Mar 2005 22:56 GMT
>> I have a  (Canadian) liability question to do with diving.  Are the founding
>> members of a "dive club" liable for accidents that occur to members of that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Ask our "resident" legal beagel... Greg. But then, lawyers will always
>tell you that you have a case.. just pony up the money.

When we used waivers with minor sports I was continually told that the
waiver is meaningless. If an operator/organizer knowingly sanctions
any event involving danger, the sanctioning body may not be able to
depend on waivers as an out in the event of an injury. That's the
extent of my "expertise" on Canadian waivers.

And I just remembered. We were told the same thing when our sports car
club ran gymkanas,  time trials and ice races. I don't remember any
lawsuits though.

JF
Poida - 11 Mar 2005 10:15 GMT
Yeah it is the same here.  Any such agreement is not worth the paper
it's written on.

Signature

Poida

chilly - 11 Mar 2005 11:15 GMT
> >> I have a  (Canadian) liability question to do with diving.  Are the founding
> >> members of a "dive club" liable for accidents that occur to members of that
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> depend on waivers as an out in the event of an injury. That's the
> extent of my "expertise" on Canadian waivers.

Same here, same here. Fortunately, Canadian law favors self-responsibility,
at least for the time being.  Why do you ask?  Did you guys go diving beyond
your personal experience level and figure it was all good cuz you could
always sue?

(snip)
Larry Anta - 11 Mar 2005 14:52 GMT
> Same here, same here. Fortunately, Canadian law favors self-responsibility,
> at least for the time being.  Why do you ask?  Did you guys go diving beyond
> your personal experience level and figure it was all good cuz you could
> always sue?

Not exactly no.  :)  It's the other way around.

I'm one of 10 founding members of a "club" and I'm worried about my own
personal liability.

If anyone has sample waivers, please email them to me; I'd appreciate it.

I'm not a lawyer and I want to do more than think/hope/pray that my personal
assets are safe should a club member get hurt.
Scott - 11 Mar 2005 15:25 GMT
> Not exactly no.  :)  It's the other way around.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I'm not a lawyer and I want to do more than think/hope/pray that my personal
> assets are safe should a club member get hurt.

Contact Alton Hall:  http://www.divelawyer.com
Larry Anta - 11 Mar 2005 19:23 GMT
> Contact Alton Hall:  http://www.divelawyer.com

Interesting site.  Does anyone know of a Canadian counterpart?  Thanks.
Scott - 11 Mar 2005 22:06 GMT
> > Contact Alton Hall:  http://www.divelawyer.com
>
> Interesting site.  Does anyone know of a Canadian counterpart?  Thanks.

Call him and ask, he will know who is good.
chilly - 11 Mar 2005 17:09 GMT
> > Same here, same here. Fortunately, Canadian law favors
> self-responsibility,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I'm one of 10 founding members of a "club" and I'm worried about my own
> personal liability.

In that case, a dive club is not a dive club when it is ste up as a 'not for
profit" society.

> If anyone has sample waivers, please email them to me; I'd appreciate it.
>
> I'm not a lawyer and I want to do more than think/hope/pray that my personal
> assets are safe should a club member get hurt.

Then I suggest you guys get thee hence to a lawyer.
Larry Anta - 11 Mar 2005 17:53 GMT
> [...deletia...]
> Then I suggest you guys get thee hence to a lawyer.

Thanks Sheryl.  I'm beginning to think along those lines as well.
Dillon Pyron - 11 Mar 2005 21:26 GMT
>> [...deletia...]
>> Then I suggest you guys get thee hence to a lawyer.
>
>Thanks Sheryl.  I'm beginning to think along those lines as well.

Actually, that's the only legitimate advice.

On the Internet, nobody can tell you're a dog.

Signature

dillon

"When the French are against it, you know we can't
be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Dillon Pyron - 11 Mar 2005 21:25 GMT
>> Same here, same here. Fortunately, Canadian law favors
>self-responsibility,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>I'm not a lawyer and I want to do more than think/hope/pray that my personal
>assets are safe should a club member get hurt.

I can't speak specifically to Canadian laws, but isn't there some way
to separate yourself from the club, like incorporation?

A federal judge in Mass. has ruled that an individual does not have
the right to waive the rights to sue for his/her heirs.  Of course,
that's Massachusetts.

Whereas, as was pointed out, Canadian law seems to favor taking care
of oneself.

Signature

dillon

"When the French are against it, you know we can't
be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Bryan Heit - 11 Mar 2005 20:37 GMT
> I have a  (Canadian) liability question to do with diving.  Are the founding
> members of a "dive club" liable for accidents that occur to members of that
> club even if the club goes to great lengths to make it clear to its members
> (via a waiver) that there will be no divemasters for the dives?

It's complex.  Unlike in the US, a waiver up here should provide you
with some legal protection.  If you have a waiver, in theory, your but
is covered.  Unless they can show that you were negligent, which isn't
necessarily too hard for them to do.  I know this is expensive, but it
is in your best interest to consult a lawyer (preferably one with a
sports/leisure related background).  He/she can draw up a proper waiver,
as well as give you a better idea of what your potential liabilities
are, and how else you can cover your a.s.

And just aside, a waiver is only one layer of protection, and in no way
represents complete legal protection.  I've run several youth camps in
which we've required waivers for some/all activities.  But on top of
that we always carry liability insurance, and sometimes have additional
insurance on top of that (i.e. to cover damaged equipment, etc).  If you
truly want to be legally prepared you need more then just a waiver -
liability insurance is another layer of protection you may want to seek out.

I don't think I can stress the "talk to a lawyer" bit enough - a single
consultation and production of waiver will not be cheap, but it'll be a
hell of a lot cheaper then if you use an incomplete waiver and get sued.
 Plus the lawyer should be able to give you a better idea of what
you'll need in terms of insurance, provide you with pointers on how to
cover your a.s, and point out additional legal problems you may encounter.

Bryan
Greg Mossman - 12 Mar 2005 04:19 GMT
> It's complex.  Unlike in the US, a waiver up here should provide you with
> some legal protection.  If you have a waiver, in theory, your but is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> as well as give you a better idea of what your potential liabilities are,
> and how else you can cover your a.s.

Why do you think that a waiver won't provide legal protection in the U.S.?
And what's the use of a waiver if the plaintiff can still plead negligence?

> And just aside, a waiver is only one layer of protection, and in no way
> represents complete legal protection.  I've run several youth camps in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> liability insurance is another layer of protection you may want to seek
> out.

If you have liability insurance and it will cover the situation, why consult
a lawyer about a waiver?  That becomes the insurance company's problem.

> I don't think I can stress the "talk to a lawyer" bit enough - a single
> consultation and production of waiver will not be cheap, but it'll be a
> hell of a lot cheaper then if you use an incomplete waiver and get sued.
> Plus the lawyer should be able to give you a better idea of what you'll
> need in terms of insurance, provide you with pointers on how to cover your
> a.s, and point out additional legal problems you may encounter.

How much could a single consultation and prouduction of a waiver cost?  I
can produce a waiver for free:  steal PADI's.  Do you think waivers can be
copyrighted?
 
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