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Scuba Forum / General / February 2005

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Question: SSI vs. PADI

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curlyQlink - 13 Feb 2005 19:11 GMT
My wife and I are planning to get started in scuba.  We have a choice
between SSI instructors and PADI;  the SSI course would be more convienent
for both of us to get to.  Is there any significant difference?  Anything we
need to watch out for?
Scott - 13 Feb 2005 19:18 GMT
> My wife and I are planning to get started in scuba.  We have a choice
> between SSI instructors and PADI;  the SSI course would be more convienent
> for both of us to get to.  Is there any significant difference?  Anything we
> need to watch out for?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=SSI+vs.+PADI&btnG=Google+Search

http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?q=SSI%20vs.%20PADI&num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwin
dow=1&sa=N&tab=wg

Greg Mossman - 13 Feb 2005 19:41 GMT
> My wife and I are planning to get started in scuba.  We have a choice
> between SSI instructors and PADI;  the SSI course would be more convienent
> for both of us to get to.  Is there any significant difference?  Anything
> we
> need to watch out for?

No, there's no significant difference.  The difference is in the individual
instructor, not the agency.  Watch out for pushy gear sales before you're
ready to buy (i.e., before you're certified and somewhat experienced).
Watch out for weekend express classes.
mike gray - 13 Feb 2005 20:07 GMT
>>My wife and I are planning to get started in scuba.  We have a choice
>>between SSI instructors and PADI;  the SSI course would be more convienent
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> ready to buy (i.e., before you're certified and somewhat experienced).
> Watch out for weekend express classes.

Exactly. Get the best instructor. Take whatever card he gives.
Don't buy anything except yer mask (fit counts, nothing else
does), buy fins and the cheapest snorkel if ya can't borrow.
Don't buy any other gear until ya have some experience.

Thank us later, when ya understand.
Lee Bell - 14 Feb 2005 11:42 GMT
> My wife and I are planning to get started in scuba.  We have a choice
> between SSI instructors and PADI;  the SSI course would be more convienent
> for both of us to get to.  Is there any significant difference?  Anything
> we
> need to watch out for?

Lots of people will be telling you that it's the instructor that counts, not
the agency.  I agree.

Having said that, all else being equal, I'd chose SSI over PADI pretty much
every time.  These are all corporate issues, not instructor or diver issues.
Here they are:
1. I don't have a PADI certification, but my wife does and I've sat through
some of their courses.  PADI pumps PADI, strongly and heavily.  In my
opinion, their marketing program is a higher corporate priority than their
training programs.  That doesn't mean that they don't offer quality
training, but it does mean that theirs a strong incentive to give a higher
priority to graduating a student than to ensuring he's competent before he
graduates.
2. In my experience, PADI is more course oriented, SSI is more skill
oriented.  This varies with the instructor, but on the whole, I've found
more focus on practicing skills with SSI than with PADI.  This, in my
opinion, is one of the biggest reasons that SSI grew quickly in the US
despite PADI's far larger and better financed marketing department.  I, and
most experienced divers, find practicing skills to be one of the more
important factors leading to becoming what others recognize as an
experienced diver.
3. PADI has a strong tendency to ignore anything that does not come from
PADI.  SSI and some other agencies I have experience with are more likely to
present contrasting views and alternative methods of addressing the same
issues.  While it's important to be certain that each graduate knows some
way to address each issue, it's usually considered better for them have
options to chose from or, to form a basis for a method or style of their
own.  Divers trained to think for themselves tend to become better, all
around, divers than those that are trained in a more dogmatic style.
4. PADI tends to teach their way as rules.  SSI and most other agencies tell
it like it is.  They teach guidelines, explaining the whys of each
recommendation and encouraging the individual diver to decide what his
personal rules will be.  I got a real life example of this, this weekend.
Before the dive boat left the shore, the Captain went over a set of rules.
Each one of them started "PADI rules require . . . "  It mattered not that
at least one of the divers on the boat, me, has no association with PADI at
all.  The rules included "no decompression," "no penetration," and back on
the boat with a minimum of 500 psi remaining.  Kind of silly when all but
two of the people aboard are clearly geared for more technically challenging
diving.  To the Captain's credit, nobody pushed the issues.  They chose not
to notice my very obvious and well marked tank of decompression gas or the
spools of line both my buddy and I were carrying.  Still, he preached PADI's
rules because PADI told him he had to.  He may have to do what PADI
corporate says in order to advertise himself as a PADI shop, but PADI is
over the line when they try to impose their rules on anybody.

Despite all of that, the instructor is still important than the agency.  A
good PADI instructor will provide good dive training.  So will a good SSI
instructor.  Either certification will be recognized world wide.

Lee
YMCA entry level
NAUI Scuba
SSI Advanced, Deep, Navigation, Stress and Rescue, Master Diver
TDI Nitrox
Greg Mossman - 14 Feb 2005 18:38 GMT
> 1. I don't have a PADI certification, but my wife does and I've sat
> through some of their courses.  PADI pumps PADI, strongly and heavily.  In
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> priority to graduating a student than to ensuring he's competent before he
> graduates.

I'm an SSI instructor.  Trust me, we're strongly encouraged to promote SSI.
Plus we promote the dive shop with which we're affiliated.  PADI instructors
can be independent of a shop, with less inherent motive to sell expensive
gear.

> 2. In my experience, PADI is more course oriented, SSI is more skill
> oriented.  This varies with the instructor, but on the whole, I've found
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> important factors leading to becoming what others recognize as an
> experienced diver.

I don't know that SSI any more than PADI significantly exceeds RSTC
standards in skills training.  Again, it's up to the individual instructor.

> 3. PADI has a strong tendency to ignore anything that does not come from
> PADI.  SSI and some other agencies I have experience with are more likely
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> their own.  Divers trained to think for themselves tend to become better,
> all around, divers than those that are trained in a more dogmatic style.

PADI only does that because of superior market share.  They're certainly
quick enough to hop on the bandwagon when they realize they're losing money
to other certification agencies.  Hence PADI Nitrox and DSAT.

> 4. PADI tends to teach their way as rules.  SSI and most other agencies
> tell it like it is.  They teach guidelines, explaining the whys of each
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> PADI shop, but PADI is over the line when they try to impose their rules
> on anybody.

That's between the captain and PADI, and more likely an requirement of his
insurer.  I know an SSI shop that imposes rules on its charters.  I also
know of a certain NAUI instructor that doesn't even allow nitrox on his
charters.
D Vince - 14 Feb 2005 19:54 GMT
Exceeding PADI standards is actually breach of the standards, or so I
was told at the IE.
I was also told that the PADI O/W Diver course follows the RSTC's
recommendations very closely.
That said, there is nothing wrong with teaching a bit extra.
for instance if one of my students is interested, I go a lot deeper in
to regulator  maintenance & repair. (I teach a maintenance course for
Scubapro regulators)
I also do things like adding an "Air off" test when they first connect
the regulator, to test the integrity of the Diaphragm and Purge valve.
(A quick light breath with the air tuned off) and for all those people
that live or dive in the tropics like I do, I teach them to give the
Second stage a good shake, and a blast of air out of it before they
take their first breath.
Reason for this...
An amusing (for me anyway) incident where I was asked to help a shop
here in Phuket to set up a professional proper repair Dept. for them.
The Manager was setting up the Equipment for their Cust. next day (A
Similan Trip) and when she checked one of the Regs, (she was trying to
talk to me and test & Pack gear) she took a big huff off of one that
had spent the day in the back on the floor just laying on dive bags.
To make a long story short, if I thought she was a bit task loaded
trying to pack and talk in English, and not her native Swedish, you
should have seen her when the Cockroach that just flew in to the back
of her throat and lodged there.
BTW, no matter how cool you are under stress, a cockroach, gear testing
& Packing session, and a conversation in a second language, is in my
opinion pretty much impossible.
It was somewhat amusing from my point of view though.

SSI instructors have to be affiliated with a SSI shop, as I understand
it and I think it is probably a case of "the grass is greener".
If you are independent like most instructor here are, you have no job
security at all, and no one helped us out as so many others were
helped.
Many people here have lost pretty much everything that they had. From
all their Equipment, too friends, family, and all that they possessed
to the little Tsunami that hit here.
One thing about PADI though, I know that everyone is always saying how
the almighty dollar is all that they care about, well I am not certain
as I don't know first hand, but I have been told that PADI has waved
the annual renewal fee for some of the people that were, or still are
here, even some dive centers didn't have to pay their annual fee.
Now I know that they make a lot from the products that they sell, but
there are around 100-150 Shops and Freelance instructors that were on
or near Phuket, and there has to be a very large part of their annual
operating costs in those fees.
So Hats off to PADI, I have not heard of any other agency even giving
us a small break on annual renewal fees.
I know I had to pay all of mine.
Cheers, Dive safe
D Vince
Chalong Thailand
Greg Mossman - 15 Feb 2005 21:14 GMT
> Many people here have lost pretty much everything that they had. From
> all their Equipment, too friends, family, and all that they possessed
> to the little Tsunami that hit here.

> So Hats off to PADI, I have not heard of any other agency even giving
> us a small break on annual renewal fees.

> Chalong Thailand

Really?  I was in Chalong a day after the tsunami and it was unscathed.
D Vince - 16 Feb 2005 02:32 GMT
By here I meant the Phuket, and Khao Lak area.
yes Chalong was ok, not unscathed, but better than a lot of places.
Morten Reistad - 22 Feb 2005 21:30 GMT
>> My wife and I are planning to get started in scuba.  We have a choice
>> between SSI instructors and PADI;  the SSI course would be more convienent
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Lots of people will be telling you that it's the instructor that counts, not
>the agency.  I agree.

And here the PADI bashing starts.

>Having said that, all else being equal, I'd chose SSI over PADI pretty much
>every time.  These are all corporate issues, not instructor or diver issues.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>priority to graduating a student than to ensuring he's competent before he
>graduates.

This is the job of the instructor. The instructor is the most important
part of the package. The facilities are the second most important one.

PADI has by far the best marketing and "glossies" of any SCUBA operation.
The material, CD, Videos etc are slick, all the way.  For better or worse,
it forms the baseline of Scuba instruction now.

>2. In my experience, PADI is more course oriented, SSI is more skill
>oriented.  This varies with the instructor, but on the whole, I've found
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>important factors leading to becoming what others recognize as an
>experienced diver.

Same reason CMAS and clubs have had a sort of revival in rightopondia, despite
the abject mismanagement by their managers.

But I will hand one thing to PADI operations : they are very predictable.
You WILL go through the same mill no matter where you take the course.

>3. PADI has a strong tendency to ignore anything that does not come from
>PADI.  SSI and some other agencies I have experience with are more likely to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>own.  Divers trained to think for themselves tend to become better, all
>around, divers than those that are trained in a more dogmatic style.

PADI just follows a long line of "vocational rote training" that has taken
hold mostly in leftopopndia, but is not uncommon here either.

>4. PADI tends to teach their way as rules.  SSI and most other agencies tell
>it like it is.  They teach guidelines, explaining the whys of each
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>corporate says in order to advertise himself as a PADI shop, but PADI is
>over the line when they try to impose their rules on anybody.

This 'PADI baseline' was necessary in the late eighties and early nineties to
combat all the gung-ho divers doing deep on air and no redundancy. It has
become a mantra set in stone now. Unfortunatly the insurance companies have
cemented this.

Nowadays we refer to the "PADI police": There are no such thing. And don't
get me started on the "rec tech" courses.

>Despite all of that, the instructor is still important than the agency.  A
>good PADI instructor will provide good dive training.  So will a good SSI
>instructor.  Either certification will be recognized world wide.

Things to look for :

-- Talk to the instructor. See to it you have one person to relate to.
-- Do they take proper time in class, pools and in the sea.
-- Number of people in class.
-- Facilities.
-- Check that books/certifications are covered in the price.

Expect to use the better part of three weeks, all evenings and all weekends
for the course. And this is a basic one. A proper SCUBA course normally gives
1/5th of a semester credit on a vocational/high school level, and the effort
works out pretty well.

-- mrr
Lee Bell - 22 Feb 2005 23:51 GMT
Not PADI bashing, just a preference for the reasons stated.

> PADI has by far the best marketing and "glossies" of any SCUBA operation.
> The material, CD, Videos etc are slick, all the way.  For better or worse,
> it forms the baseline of Scuba instruction now.

Are marketing, glitzy CDs and Videos the standard by which quality
instruction is measured?

> This 'PADI baseline' was necessary in the late eighties and early nineties
> to
> combat all the gung-ho divers doing deep on air and no redundancy. It has
> become a mantra set in stone now. Unfortunatly the insurance companies
> have
> cemented this.

I was first trained in 1962, before there was a PADI to bash.  We did OK.
My first card was issued by NAUI.  I did OK with that too.  Most of my SSI
experience also predates PADI's support of gas choices other than air.  It
was only when they saw the money they wanted for themselves move to more
progressive agencies, that they began to support alternative gas choices.
Prior to being "born again," they were quite vocal in their condemnation of
agencies that supported anything but air for recreational diving.

Insurance companies don't make the rules for me.  Never have, never will.
They control only those willing to be controlled.

Lee

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