I guess I'm either supposed to subscribe to the mags or blindly trust
my LDS but that just isn't me so I'll ask a bunch of strangers
instead..
I'm thinking about buying a tropical wetsuit for vacation diving
..(Keys / Mexico / Cuba / Costa Rica those sort of places) and it would
appear that depending on what is in stock in my size I need either a
3mm or 5 mm full suit or a 5mm shorty. So obviously I'm wondering what
the consensus here is...
In the other dives I've done (various gear)I have not been cold when
others who were geared the same were (wusses).
And another thing ... do the laws of physics change for wetsuit ads?
The only other place I've seen people play as fast and loose with the
laws of physics is in the bicycle industry.
Charlie Hammond - 03 Feb 2005 18:07 GMT
>I'm thinking about buying a tropical wetsuit for vacation diving
>..(Keys / Mexico / Cuba / Costa Rica those sort of places) and it would
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>In the other dives I've done (various gear)I have not been cold when
>others who were geared the same were (wusses).
Based on my experience and what you say above, I would suggest that
a 3 mil suit should be fine for you -- perhaps even over-kill in the
summer when the water is warmer. If you can find one, consider a
3 mil body with 2 mil arms and legs. For those days when you feel
a bit cooler, get a hooded vest to layer with it. This comb will
NOT be enough for New England or the USA west coast, but it should
handle all the conditions you mention.
You are lucky if you can get good fit off the rack. A good fit is
essential; too tight OR too loose will not be as warm. For most
people, a custom made wet suit is worth the added cost -- which is
not that much more than a good off-the-rack suit. This also allows
you to choose things like pockets, ankle and wrist zippers, etc.
If you're interested goto http://www.wetwaer.com -- or visit there
shop in Ft Lauderdal, FL. There are others, but I have been pleased
with Wetwear. Your local shop may be able to do custom too.
>And another thing ... do the laws of physics change for wetsuit ads?
>The only other place I've seen people play as fast and loose with the
>laws of physics is in the bicycle industry.
Yes. ...and in ads for other SCUBA gear too.
One suspects that these poor souls actually believe what they write.
Certainly they would not deliberately lie just to sell their product! <grin>
Enjoy!

Signature
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Boiler_81 - 03 Feb 2005 18:27 GMT
Corrected URL
http://www.wetwear.com/
chilly - 03 Feb 2005 20:03 GMT
> >I'm thinking about buying a tropical wetsuit for vacation diving
> >..(Keys / Mexico / Cuba / Costa Rica those sort of places) and it would
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> NOT be enough for New England or the USA west coast, but it should
> handle all the conditions you mention.
Agreed. However, before you go out and buy the hooded vest, just try going
with a hood, for the days that you feel more chilled.
Lee Bell - 03 Feb 2005 19:29 GMT
> I'm thinking about buying a tropical wetsuit for vacation diving
> ..(Keys / Mexico / Cuba / Costa Rica those sort of places) and it would
> appear that depending on what is in stock in my size I need either a
> 3mm or 5 mm full suit or a 5mm shorty. So obviously I'm wondering what
> the consensus here is...
Any of the above have, and continue to be used by many.
I'm a Florida native, still living and diving in south Florida. When I was
younger, I did quite nicely with a 3mm shorty. Anything that kept my trunk
warm, was good enough for me. When I ran across a couple of rear entry 3mm
suits at a going out of business sale, I paid the $30 each that was asked
and have not regretted the chioce. In most cases, the suit is adequate for
my local diving. As I aged and my diving got a lot less energetic, I find
I'm sometimes a bit chilly in my 3mm. I'm not very uncomfortable, I'm just
not warm. Still, the 3mm is the right suit for me a lot more times than the
5mm is. Personally, I'll put up with the slight chill, or go find something
else to do, rather than put up with the buoyancy and cost of the 5mm suit.
> In the other dives I've done (various gear)I have not been cold when
> others who were geared the same were (wusses).
People differ almost as much as their diving does. Some do not feel the
cold as much as others. Energy levels, however, are also a factor. The
longer I dive, the less active my diving gets. As a result, my gas
consumption is very low, but my tolerance to cold is not longer as high.
> And another thing ... do the laws of physics change for wetsuit ads?
> The only other place I've seen people play as fast and loose with the
> laws of physics is in the bicycle industry.
Sounds like an interesting topic for discussion. Details, please.
Lee
nospam@all.please.net - 04 Feb 2005 05:46 GMT
> I guess I'm either supposed to subscribe to the mags or blindly trust
> my LDS but that just isn't me so I'll ask a bunch of strangers
> instead..
>
> I'm thinking about buying a tropical wetsuit for vacation diving
If active, I can handle 78F water for about a hour, but will shiver
during the safety stop.
I only recently started using a wetsuit; it's a 3mm (long sleeved)
shorty with a 3mm farmer john.
My experience in other areas indicates that my extremities will be
ok if I keep my head or torso warm. (Both is better.)
I have not had reason to use the fj. The zipper on the shorty is
on the front so I can clear it after I urinate while underwater.
I unzip and flap for a few kicks to clear it. I guess I'll just
live with when I use the farmerjohn. :(
Joe English - 04 Feb 2005 13:02 GMT
> I guess I'm either supposed to subscribe to the mags or blindly trust
> my LDS but that just isn't me so I'll ask a bunch of strangers
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The only other place I've seen people play as fast and loose with the
> laws of physics is in the bicycle industry.
In all those places I have worn only a skin and been comfortable. I do
carry a light shorty with me just in case. While diving off a
liveaboard and due to the number of dives done per day I wore the shorty
on almost every dive over my wet skin.
Andrew - 04 Feb 2005 13:56 GMT
Thanks all for the replies... I think I have a much better idea of what
I'm looking for.
Lee as far as the physics goes... It has been years since I studied it
but just looking at (listening to?) some of the claims made goes right
against what I remember from high school..claims talking about surfaces
"keeping cold from penetrating" this is impossible, cold is simply the
absence of heat it should say (if true) "adds insulation" or "helps
prevent body heat from escaping". (sure that could just be an easy
description but it is still wrong). But the one claim that made me
notice was the "reflects heat back to the body" .. reflection requires
radiation... underwater you loose heat through convection (as with just
about everywhere else except a vaccuum or still air) and there is no
reflection possible.. all you can do is slow down convection via
insulation...
I may be wrong or overly critical but..
H. Huntzinger - 06 Feb 2005 14:36 GMT
> Thanks all for the replies... I think I have a much better idea of what
> I'm looking for.
As you found, individual tolerance can vary widely. I typically wear a
full 3mm and particularly if its a low-activity level dive will still
get cold after an hour or so, so I've been contemplating adding a
warmwater hood or "beanie" for 80F dives. Generally speaking, I won't
strip down to just a dive skin until its above 84F or so.
> Lee as far as the physics goes... It has been years since I studied it
> but just looking at (listening to?) some of the claims made goes right
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> prevent body heat from escaping". (sure that could just be an easy
> description but it is still wrong).
You're right that a wetsuit is simply a form of insulation. This is
very basic "advertising copy" abuse of the English language.
> But the one claim that made me
> notice was the "reflects heat back to the body" .. reflection requires
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I may be wrong or overly critical but..
No, you're right...you just forgot a little physics en route.
The advertising copy isn't technically a lie because every warm body
always produces heat in Radiation, Conduction and Convection forms.
The advertising copy is, however, has been deceptive as to communicating
the level of significance of its claim.
For radiation transmission, you might recall the term "black body
radiation" being used with it. Generally speaking, the hotter the body,
the more radiation transmission there it puts out. What this means for
our human scuba diver is that since his skin temperature is ~85F (and
not 3,000F) the amount of radiation he's transmitting is very small.
And that's just in air. Once we dip that diver in water, his conduction
and convection heat transfer rates soar in comparison to air by more
than a full order of magnitude...IIRC, around 25x greater.
So even though Physics says that there will be some radiation that some
percentage of it could be reflected back, from a "percentage of total
sources of heat loss", it is so trivial that it may as well be literally
zero.
In other words, the Ad's stating the literal truth, but neglected to say
that its scientific contribution is quantitatively insignificant. IMO,
this makes it a deceptive and unethical advertisement.
FWIW, what this also happens to mean is that any perceived warmth gained
by this "feature" is really going to be more a psychologically-derived
"Placebo" Effect in those people who believe the BS marketing hype.
-hh
Steve - 06 Feb 2005 17:10 GMT
> claims talking about surfaces
> "keeping cold from penetrating"
While the "cold" (which doesn't really exist, anyway) can't penetrate the water can,
and besides insulating from conductive heat loss wetsuits reduce the flow of water
against your skin. That's why wetsuits are supposed to be a bit tight. I don't know
exactly how the ad was phrased, but it may not have been misleading so much as poorly
written. Of course advertising is also targeted to the LCD, so if they got it all
right it wouldn't be as efective.
>"reflects heat back to the body"
Titanium is one of the new buzzwords in the world of marketing. Georgia pacific is
marketing plywood with the tradname "Plytanium".
> I may be wrong or overly critical but..
You could be wrong, but it's really difficult to be overly critical of advertising.
As for wetsuit decisions, here's my two cents worth. As with any other insulating
clothing layering gives you versatility. Instead of a 5mm shorty I'd opt for a 3mm
farmer john and a 3mm shorty. If you don't get chilled easily or the water is fairly
warm a polartec diveskin has the advantage of neutral buoyancy. My usual warm water
outfit is a 2mm farmer john shorty under a polartec skin, and a polartec hood. I
started wearing the hood because the mask strap bothered my ears, but it helps a lot
with warmth.

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