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Scuba Forum / General / July 2005

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Nitrox vs. regular air

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usenet69@hotmail.com - 26 Jan 2005 21:39 GMT
What is the cost of Nitrox gear vs. regular gear?

I have alot of old gear that I need to replace before my next dive. I'm
not sure if I should get Nitrox or not.

-------------------------------
Pass your urine test!
www.urine-pimp.com
Curtis - 26 Jan 2005 21:46 GMT
> What is the cost of Nitrox gear vs. regular gear?

   Same price, same gear.

   O2 cleaning for first stages only above 40%, otherwise no difference.
That is, unless you wanna pay more for the shiny green & yellow parts.

Curtis
mike gray - 27 Jan 2005 15:27 GMT
>>What is the cost of Nitrox gear vs. regular gear?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Curtis

And O2 cleaning of tanks & valves if ya do partial pressure fills.
Grumman-581 - 26 Jan 2005 21:50 GMT
> What is the cost of Nitrox gear vs. regular gear?
>
> I have alot of old gear that I need to replace before my next dive. I'm
> not sure if I should get Nitrox or not.

Probably depends upon the concentration of nitrox that you're planning on
breathing... Of course you *could* just get your current gear O2 cleaned if
you thought that it was necessary for diving nitrox... If you dive with a
dive computer that does not support nitrox, you might want to replace it
unless you plan to just dive nitrox but use air tables to be more
conservative...

How old is your gear?  Personally, I get a kick out of it when my gear is
older than the age of the other divers on a boat... OK, it's only my tanks
that are older than them, not the regs, but that counts too... <grin>
Curtis - 26 Jan 2005 22:00 GMT
> Probably depends upon the concentration of nitrox that you're planning on
> breathing...

   Unless you're using deco gasses, no need.

   Gotta make sure the shop that tells you otherwise makes sure the regs
are He clean also.   ;-)

>Of course you *could* just get your current gear O2 cleaned if
> you thought that it was necessary for diving nitrox...

   Had all my first stages done, so can use any of them on 100%

>If you dive with a
> dive computer that does not support nitrox, you might want to replace it
> unless you plan to just dive nitrox but use air tables to be more
> conservative...

   Air tables using EAD work just fine.

> How old is your gear?  Personally, I get a kick out of it when my gear is
> older than the age of the other divers on a boat... OK, it's only my tanks
> that are older than them, not the regs, but that counts too... <grin>

   From the guy with the "young" 72s   ;-)

Curtis
Lee Bell - 26 Jan 2005 23:17 GMT
>    Air tables using EAD work just fine.

If you don't mind very short dives to stay within deco limits.

Lee
Curtis - 28 Jan 2005 03:56 GMT
>>    Air tables using EAD work just fine.
>
> If you don't mind very short dives to stay within deco limits.

   ????????????

Curtis
mike gray - 28 Jan 2005 05:17 GMT
>>>   Air tables using EAD work just fine.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Curtis

I think he's talking about the square profile assumption.
Curtis - 29 Jan 2005 15:34 GMT
>>     ????????????

> I think he's talking about the square profile assumption.

   I'm not sure what he's talking about, to be honest.  His example is an
air dive, a profile similar to what I do on a regular basis, posted as a
response to figuring EAD and using air table, then assuming I have to run a
program to achieve a dive plan.

   Curtis

mike gray - 29 Jan 2005 23:56 GMT
>>>    ????????????
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>     Curtis
>  

Lessee... the dive I did this morning I have no idea how deep I
was (on the bottom) or how long I was down (til my shoulders
hurt). Life is so much easier when all ya have to do is keep
50cfm going through the exhaust valve.
Curtis - 30 Jan 2005 01:18 GMT
> Lessee... the dive I did this morning I have no idea how deep I was (on
> the bottom) or how long I was down (til my shoulders hurt). Life is so
> much easier when all ya have to do is keep 50cfm going through the exhaust
> valve.

   Hmmmm.....yeah, I like that.

   Actually, tomorrow's dive will be as deep as natural sunlight reaches,
until Rodger signals he's low on air.  I'll have about 160 CF of gas with an
MOD of about 120 feet strapped on, so nature will take care of MOD, no deco
limits would be very difficult to achieve,  be in my new 3 mil toasting
away, so about all I'll need to do is keep far less than 50 CFM from blowing
through my exhaust valve.   ;-)

Curtis


Lee Bell - 31 Jan 2005 00:44 GMT
>    I'm not sure what he's talking about, to be honest.  His example is an
> air dive, a profile similar to what I do on a regular basis, posted as a
> response to figuring EAD and using air table, then assuming I have to run
> a program to achieve a dive plan.

Post your dive.  No deco, using tables from any agency you chose.  Let me
know when you find one that will allow an air equivalent 120 foot dive for
62 minutes without deco.  If you can't, then my short dive comments stands.

Lee
Grumman-581 - 31 Jan 2005 02:56 GMT
> Post your dive.  No deco, using tables from any agency you chose.  Let me
> know when you find one that will allow an air equivalent 120 foot dive for
> 62 minutes without deco.  If you can't, then my short dive comments stands.

62 minutes at 120 ft or a 62 minute ascent from 120 ft?
Grumman-581 - 31 Jan 2005 03:01 GMT
Hmmm... Interesting... On a WinNT machine, the post took the system date of
the machine... I don't remember this happening on a Win2K machine...
Dillon Pyron - 27 Jul 2005 16:42 GMT
>Hmmm... Interesting... On a WinNT machine, the post took the system date of
>the machine... I don't remember this happening on a Win2K machine...

It is now 2010.  It was 2006.  Me thinks you need to load Neutron and
update your clocks every once and a while.

Signature

dillon
Linux, it's not just an OS, it's a way
of life.

And a damn fine one, at that.

Lee Bell - 31 Jan 2005 10:43 GMT
>> Post your dive.  No deco, using tables from any agency you chose.  Let me
>> know when you find one that will allow an air equivalent 120 foot dive
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> 62 minutes at 120 ft or a 62 minute ascent from 120 ft?

Dive to 120 feet, total dive time 62 minutes, no deco.  Find it, on any
table you chose or admit it's longer than what you would get using EAD and
an air table.

Lee
Curtis - 31 Jan 2005 21:13 GMT
> Dive to 120 feet, total dive time 62 minutes, no deco.  Find it, on any
> table you chose or admit it's longer than what you would get using EAD and
> an air table.

  120 FFW for 15 min, then 50 FSW for 44 min, total dive time about 72
minutes, not exceeding NDLs.

   Since I just beat your parameters, you lost.  Did with the tables what
your computer does for you.  End of discussion.

   "NO deco" description shows rookie themes, and this STILL does not have
anything to do with my original post.

> It's not the computer users that have had the problem with bragging about
> the size of their dicks.

   I often find quite the opposite to be true.

Curtis
Lee Bell - 01 Feb 2005 04:27 GMT
>> Dive to 120 feet, total dive time 62 minutes, no deco.  Find it, on any
>> table you chose or admit it's longer than what you would get using EAD
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   120 FFW for 15 min, then 50 FSW for 44 min, total dive time about 72
> minutes, not exceeding NDLs.

What table did that come from?  You did, after all, suggest using a table,
remember?

>    Since I just beat your parameters, you lost.  Did with the tables what
> your computer does for you.  End of discussion.

I see nothing to indicate that you did it with tables unless, of course, you
used a computer program, something I've already addressed.  Above the water
computer, below the water computer.  If you used either, you lost.

> "NO deco" description shows rookie themes, and this STILL does not have
> anything to do with my original post.

You were talking to a rookie, remember?

>> It's not the computer users that have had the problem with bragging about
>> the size of their dicks.
>
>    I often find quite the opposite to be true.

Must be the company you keep.

Lee
H. Huntzinger - 01 Feb 2005 12:26 GMT
> >> Dive to 120 feet, total dive time 62 minutes, no deco.  Find it, on any
> >> table you chose or admit it's longer than what you would get using EAD
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> What table did that come from?  You did, after all, suggest using a table,
> remember?

If nowhere else, it may have come from the US Navy dive table.

When you read the fine print on this old table, it states that delays in
ascent rate below 50fsw are to be added to the bottom time for purposes
of the table look-up...however, for delays at depths shallower than
50fsw, the additional time taken is not counted against the bottom time.

Keeping in mind that the letters have changed over the years, on the old
letter scale, this would have brought you up as a "G" diver.

FWIW, there also was a IIRC Dave Duis published technique for using
tables to conduct multi-level diving and IMO, it could be used to touch
120fsw max on an ~hour dive.  Perhaps if someone trustworthy were to
offer a $18,000 reward, I'd try to dig through my stuff to find my copy.

-hh
A. Craig West - 01 Feb 2005 14:30 GMT
> FWIW, there also was a IIRC Dave Duis published technique for using
> tables to conduct multi-level diving and IMO, it could be used to touch
> 120fsw max on an ~hour dive.  Perhaps if someone trustworthy were to
> offer a $18,000 reward, I'd try to dig through my stuff to find my copy.

The ACUC dive tables were designed to make multilevel calculations easy. The
given dive wouldn't work, as they are more conservative than US NAvy tables
(the NDL at 120 feet is 10 minutes) but you could do 120 for 10, 60 for 25,
and 30 for about as long as you want (180 max). There are a number of other
combinations possible as well, and the system for calculating it on the table
is REALLY simple...

Signature

Craig West         Ph: (416) 666-1645    |  It's not a bug,
acwest-sig@craigwest.net                  |  It's a feature...

Lee Bell - 01 Feb 2005 18:35 GMT
>> >> Dive to 120 feet, total dive time 62 minutes, no deco.  Find it, on any
>> >> table you chose or admit it's longer than what you would get using EAD
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> table,
>> remember?

> If nowhere else, it may have come from the US Navy dive table.

> When you read the fine print on this old table, it states that delays in
> ascent rate below 50fsw are to be added to the bottom time for purposes
> of the table look-up...however, for delays at depths shallower than
> 50fsw, the additional time taken is not counted against the bottom time.

Interesting you should mention the Navy Tables.  Here's what I think is
wrong with your statement:
1. I looked at the tables in my copy of the Navy Dive Manual and the
statement you mention is not there.  Times change.
2. Even if it were there, and I assume it is in the version you consulted,
44 minutes is hardly a "delay" in ascent.  If an extended stop at 50 feet
didn't count, then there would be no no deco limit for 50 feet and there is
one.  It's 100 minutes for a clean diver.
3. By the Navy Dive Tables, the no deco limit for 120 feet is 15 minutes.
The dive Curtis described is a deco dive by the Navy Tables.  This was a
deco dive before the return to 50 feet.

Here's more:
1. By my NAUI wheel, the no deco limit for 120 feet is 12 minutes.  It's a
deco dive.
2. By my Oceanic Computer, the deco limit for 120 feet is 13 minutes.  It's
a deco dive.
3. By Deco Planner, GUE's own product, the dive Curtiss described requires
24 minutes of decompression.

Lee
H. Huntzinger - 02 Feb 2005 12:28 GMT
> Interesting you should mention the Navy Tables.  Here's what I think is
> wrong with your statement:
> 1. I looked at the tables in my copy of the Navy Dive Manual and the
> statement you mention is not there.  Times change.

Yup.  What's going on here is that we are operating under a default
assumption that any published table would thus represent an undefined
but "acceptable" risk.

This old Navy table simply illustrates what happens when this assumption
gets "bent" by using an older product that had a different (higher) risk.

> 2. Even if it were there, and I assume it is in the version you consulted,
> 44 minutes is hardly a "delay" in ascent.  If an extended stop at 50 feet
> didn't count, then there would be no no deco limit for 50 feet and there is
> one.  It's 100 minutes for a clean diver.

I agree that a 44 minute delay is clearly abusing the Navy's model as
written, and its probably an oversight that there's no footnote to limit
the rule, such as to prohibit extending a delay/stop to beyond that
depth's no-stop limit as you suggestted.  

However, by the same token, if the criteria was merely to spend a total
of 62 minutes underwater with no other profile restriction except that
it must at least momentarily touch 120fsw, the multilevel intermediary
depth of 30fsw could have been used instead, and there was no time limit
at this depth on this old table.  

> 3. By the Navy Dive Tables, the no deco limit for 120 feet is 15 minutes.
> The dive Curtis described is a deco dive by the Navy Tables.  This was a
> deco dive before the return to 50 feet.

Incorrect.  The old USN tables definition of bottom time was from the
surface until the moment that you started your ascent back up, at a rate
of 60ft/min.  It is because of this definition that the additional rule
for accounting for slowed/delayed ascents was necessary.

> Here's more:
> 1. By my NAUI wheel, the no deco limit for 120 feet is 12 minutes.  It's a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 3. By Deco Planner, GUE's own product, the dive Curtiss described requires
> 24 minutes of decompression.

And here's another:

If we want to go beyond merely bending our implied default risk
assumption and clearly break it, the Navy's risk-based research states
that we can do a square profile to 120fsw for 40 minutes as a no-deco
dive...95% of the time.  Yup, the other 5% of the time, we get a DCS hit.

Granted, at 40 minutes, this falls short of our 62 minute criteria, but
it got this far without doing any multi-leveling whatsoever.  

And IMO, this really gets to what I believe is the real underlying
element of your claim:  that its a lot easier to do a multilevel dive
with a computer than with a table.

If that indeed is your point, I wholeheartedly agree with it:  it is
easier to multilevel with a computer and thus, gain more bottom time.  

But by the same token, the computer's still merely a tool, so there will
be "tables"-based ways of accomplishing the effectively same thing.  Its
simply not going to be as easy to do, nor are you likely to gain the
last 5%.  But you should be able to get 80% of the way there without too
great of difficulty...that's effectively what the Wheel represents.

-hh
Curtis - 02 Feb 2005 02:07 GMT
>>    Since I just beat your parameters, you lost.  Did with the tables what
>> your computer does for you.  End of discussion.

> I see nothing to indicate that you did it with tables unless, of course,
> you used a computer program, something I've already addressed.  Above the
> water computer, below the water computer.  If you used either, you lost.

   Sorry, you lose, and I am done.  Maybe over a beer, then again, maybe
not.......

>> "NO deco" description shows rookie themes, and this STILL does not have
>> anything to do with my original post.
>
> You were talking to a rookie, remember?

   Neither one of us believes that.

   But you still won't concede that you tried to discredit my post that you
can dive Nitrox on air tables using an EAD chart / table, a response to a
comment about using a table, which was not even trying to compare tables
with computers, with a rather advanced example not even using Nitrox but
air.  Most people asking such questions cannot nurse that much time out of
their tank to worry about the "extra time", but you saw fit to challenge it.
A simple statement, I do not teach / preach, remember?

Curtis
Lee Bell - 02 Feb 2005 03:59 GMT
> But you still won't concede that you tried to discredit my post that you
> can dive Nitrox on air tables using an EAD chart / table, a response to a
> comment about using a table, which was not even trying to compare tables
> with computers, with a rather advanced example not even using Nitrox but
> air.

I didn't discredit your statement.  I merely clarified it.  I/we use
computers because we get longer dives by using them.  that's a fact that
you've yet to admit, but it's still a fact.  As for not using Nitrox, look
again.  Air is nitrox 21 and an EAD dive is done as an air dive.

As for your post, 20 minutes at 120 feet is a deco dive to NAUI, to PADI, to
the US Navy and to GUE.  Your example does not meet the conditions.
Declaring yourself the winner without fulfilling the conditions is a
technique you must have learned from those dick wavers your mentioning
before . . . or from Bob, who you also mentioned.

>  Most people asking such questions cannot nurse that much time out of
> their tank to worry about the "extra time",
> but you saw fit to challenge it. A simple statement, I do not teach /
> preach, remember?

It was as simple a statement as I could make.  If you want a short dive.
Your statement that most don't need to worry about the extra time is
incorrect for a single dive by most of us and for repetitive dives for all
of us.  You also ignore the ability of others to do what you, yourself have
done . . . carry more gas.

So far, you've avoided making the same mistakes that those you've learned
from made, assuming that what works for you, is best for everyone.  It was
not true then.  It's not true now.  The dark side is calling you.  Don't go.

Lee
Curtis - 02 Feb 2005 23:47 GMT
> As for your post, 20 minutes at 120 feet is a deco dive to NAUI, to PADI,
> to the US Navy and to GUE.

   Yeah, 20 minutes requires a 2 minute stop by the table, but, I said 15
minutes.

   But you're too hell bent on being right to realize you've been had.

Curtis
Curtis - 03 Feb 2005 00:44 GMT
> I didn't discredit your statement.  I merely clarified it.  I/we use
> computers because we get longer dives by using them.  that's a fact that
> you've yet to admit, but it's still a fact.

   Oh, it's a fact that you use them for that.  I admit you and most
recreational divers do.

   It's also a fact that I can manage quite well doing typical boat dives
without one.  That must bother you.

   Yes, it is an attempt to say table dives are inferior, tossing in a
"bounce" dive beyond the 60-100 FSW "useful" ranges of Nitrox to show how
table use gives a shorter dive.

   Otherwise, you would not have made a misleading statement like  "If you
don't mind very short dives to stay within deco limits", emphasis on "very
short."

> As for not using Nitrox, look again.  Air is nitrox 21 and an EAD dive is
> done as an air dive.

   And I took the time to look up the EAD for 21%.......damn.

Curtis
Curtis - 31 Jan 2005 03:01 GMT
>>    I'm not sure what he's talking about, to be honest.  His example is an
>> air dive, a profile similar to what I do on a regular basis, posted as a
>> response to figuring EAD and using air table, then assuming I have to run
>> a program to achieve a dive plan.

> Post your dive.  No deco, using tables from any agency you chose.  Let me
> know when you find one that will allow an air equivalent 120 foot dive for
> 62 minutes without deco.  If you can't, then my short dive comments
> stands.

   Post what your dive has to do with my original comment, if you cannot,
then you're on a tangent, losing, trying to justify your computer usage.
They are not necessary, period.  You like yours, fine.  But, I have never
had to run up to the surface for a 5 minute interval to reset my BT.   ;-)

   Then tell me you do all 62 minutes AT 120 FSW without deco.  Most time I
have spent AT 121 FFW is 45 minutes, wasn't using air, and that required 18
minutes of oxygen, dive ran over 90 minutes total time, part of which was
simply sight-seeing.

   I do 120 FFW max dives on a regular basis, bottom times 13-20 min, TOTAL
dive times over 60 minutes, very easily planned FROM a US Navy dive table,
using EAD as it fits.  Usually get thumbed on the bottom by the guy who uses
a computer, when it tells him he has reached his NDL, while I have a couple
of minutes left by tables.

   If you wanna play bigger dick over your computer is better than my
bottom timer, then go play with your buddy Bob Ling, or know-it-all Karl
Denninger.

Curtis


Lee Bell - 31 Jan 2005 10:41 GMT
>>>    I'm not sure what he's talking about, to be honest.  His example is
>>> an air dive, a profile similar to what I do on a regular basis, posted
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> They are not necessary, period.  You like yours, fine.  But, I have never
> had to run up to the surface for a 5 minute interval to reset my BT.   ;-)

You stated that the dive could be done just fine using EAD and air tables.
I stated that it would be a short dive.  I posed a dive on EAN 21 that is
longer than anything you can find on any normal table.  My comment was both
relevant and correct.  You can use EAD and air tables for diving nitrox if
you like, provided you like short dives.

>    Then tell me you do all 62 minutes AT 120 FSW without deco.

The tables you recommended don't give you the option.  My computer does.
That's the whole point.  Pretty much every one of us that uses a computer,
does so because it extends the total dive time for the kind of diving we are
doing.  It's not a fiction, it's a fact.  Get over it.

>    I do 120 FFW max dives on a regular basis, bottom times 13-20 min,
> TOTAL dive times over 60 minutes, very easily planned FROM a US Navy dive
> table, using EAD as it fits.  Usually get thumbed on the bottom by the guy
> who uses a computer, when it tells him he has reached his NDL, while I
> have a couple of minutes left by tables.

My dive was for over an hour with no deco.  Was yours?

> If you wanna play bigger dick over your computer is better than my bottom
> timer, then go play with your buddy Bob Ling, or know-it-all Karl
> Denninger.

It's not the computer users that have had the problem with bragging about
the size of their dicks.

Lee
Lee Bell - 28 Jan 2005 13:45 GMT
in message
news:1KiKd.102119$w62.62999@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

>>>    Air tables using EAD work just fine.
>>
>> If you don't mind very short dives to stay within deco limits.
>
>    ????????????

Easy.  I've got the perfect example.  In Cozumel, in 1999, I logged a 62
minute dive, on air, with a maximum depth of 120 feet, and no deco
obligation.  A dive to the same depth, on my NAUI wheel, could have run no
longer than 12 minutes total.  I don't know what it would be on PADI or SSI
tables.  I'd have to figure out where I put them.  I don't think, however,
it's necessary to quote all the tables to make the point.

Now, if you're talking about your computerized deco tables and planning a
multi level dive, then you can do the same thing I did provided you know, in
advance, exactly what I did.  Even I didn't know that until after I'd done
it.  Further, I maintain that using your computer to generate custom tables
for no deco diving is using a computer, not using tables.

Lee
nospam@all.please.net - 28 Jan 2005 21:27 GMT
>  in message
> news:1KiKd.102119$w62.62999@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Lee

Similarly, using NAUI, PADI or SSI tables is using a computer.
mike gray - 29 Jan 2005 23:51 GMT
>> in message
>>news:1KiKd.102119$w62.62999@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Similarly, using NAUI, PADI or SSI tables is using a computer.

No. They're all rip-offs of the original Admiralty tables that
were figured out long hand. All those agencies did was convert
the fathoms to feet, which doesn't take a computer.
Greg Mossman - 29 Jan 2005 23:58 GMT
> No. They're all rip-offs of the original Admiralty tables that were
> figured out long hand. All those agencies did was convert the fathoms to
> feet, which doesn't take a computer.

Nowadays it does.  Education has gone to sh.t.
nospam@all.please.net - 30 Jan 2005 02:43 GMT
8<

>> Similarly, using NAUI, PADI or SSI tables is using a computer.
>
> No. They're all rip-offs of the original Admiralty tables that
> were figured out long hand.

Wrong again.

8<
mike gray - 30 Jan 2005 17:12 GMT
> 8<
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Wrong again.

You mean they used computers to come up with virtually identical
numbers?

Such a waste of bytes!
Curtis - 29 Jan 2005 04:09 GMT
"Lee Bell"  wrote >>    ????????????

> Easy.  I've got the perfect example.  In Cozumel, in 1999, I logged a 62
> minute dive, on air, with a maximum depth of 120 feet, and no deco
> obligation.

   ????????????

   Not sold.

Curtis
Grumman-581 - 26 Jan 2005 23:46 GMT
>     From the guy with the "young" 72s   ;-)

Hey, the oldest one is only around 35 years old... Still young for steel
tanks... The hydro shop guy in New Orleans has seen 50+ year old steel
welding cylinders come through and they're still in hydro... I seem to
remember him saying that he even saw one tank that was nearly a hundred
years old and it passed hydro...
ben bradlee - 27 Jan 2005 00:17 GMT
> The hydro shop guy in New Orleans has seen 50+ year old steel
> welding cylinders come through and they're still in hydro... I seem to
> remember him saying that he even saw one tank that was nearly a hundred
> years old and it passed hydro...

Did he say if the original owner brought it in?
Grumman-581 - 27 Jan 2005 02:07 GMT
> Did he say if the original owner brought it in?

Didn't ask... Doubtful, I suspect...
Firewalker - 26 Jan 2005 22:03 GMT
> What is the cost of Nitrox gear vs. regular gear?
>
> I have alot of old gear that I need to replace before my next dive. I'm
> not sure if I should get Nitrox or not.

That's funny, thanks.  Nitrox gear........(chuckling to myself).

http://www.gue.com/equipment/equip-anatomy.shtml
Lee Bell - 26 Jan 2005 23:15 GMT
> What is the cost of Nitrox gear vs. regular gear?
> I have alot of old gear that I need to replace before my next dive. I'm
> not sure if I should get Nitrox or not.

Up to about 40% O2, Nitrox gear, except for your computer, is regular gear.

Lee
 
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