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Scuba Forum / General / January 2005Australian Cave Diver Dies Attempting Body Recovery
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11898696%255E1702,00.html Cave:2, Divers:0 <sick-grin >http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11898696%255E1702,00.html Solo? Now, someone with more experience in caves can help me with this. Doesn't that violate the "don't do more than one risky (or stupid) thing at a time"? Me? I'm a claustrophobe. I get the shivers looking at a cave mouth. I have nightmares about getting stuck in caves.  Signaturedillon "When the French are against it, you know we can't be far wrong." - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman > Solo? Now, someone with more experience > in caves can help me with this. Doesn't that > violate the "don't do more than one risky (or > stupid) thing at a time"? There are those who think that diving solo in open water is an unacceptable risk, much less in caves... There are those who think rebreathers are too risky... Each of us has a certain amount of risk that we are willing to accept in life -- some more than others... In the end, Darwin will decide for you what should have been your acceptable level of risk... Considering that they were doing depth record type dives, I have to wonder what the profile of the cave might have been... I would suspect that it would have been a more vertical type of cave instead of a slowly descending one... Oh, here's the web page of the guy who drowned... http://www.deepcave.com/pages/6/index.htm >> Solo? Now, someone with more experience >> in caves can help me with this. Doesn't that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >accept in life -- some more than others... In the end, Darwin will decide >for you what should have been your acceptable level of risk... I have no problem with solo, I have no problem with tech deep, I have no problem with cave (well, actually I do, but that's my head), I have problem with rebreather. It's just that, in this case, he seems to have compounded his risks. But, as you say, everybody has their risk tolerance. I do risk analysis for a living, and it's all a matter of mitigation, probability and damage. >Considering that they were doing depth record type dives, I have to wonder >what the profile of the cave might have been... I would suspect that it >would have been a more vertical type of cave instead of a slowly descending >one... I've only been diving for 20 years, and I'm not stupid enough to think I'm qualified to make a dive like that. What was a 20 year old doing trying it? That's a story I'd like to hear. >Oh, here's the web page of the guy who drowned... >http://www.deepcave.com/pages/6/index.htm Signaturedillon "When the French are against it, you know we can't be far wrong." - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman > I've only been diving for 20 years, and I'm not stupid enough to think > I'm qualified to make a dive like that. What was a 20 year old doing > trying it? That's a story I'd like to hear. As long as records mean something to somebody, there will be somebody, usually a younger somebody, striving to break them. I've been diving for more than 40 years and I'm not qualified to make a diver like that either. More to the point, however, I have no desire to become, or to have become, qualified to make a dive like that . . . and I used to like diving in caves. Lee This was by no means a dive to set up a depth record. He planned this dive with the sole purpose of recovering a body. The dive plan was 5 min of bottom time at 270 mts. Deco time was 680 minutes. During the 5 minutes he was planning to cut the diver harness, put the body inside a bag and attach a line to his gear. >> I've only been diving for 20 years, and I'm not stupid enough to think >> I'm qualified to make a dive like that. What was a 20 year old doing [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lee > During the 5 minutes he was planning to cut > the diver harness, put the body inside a bag > and attach a line to his gear. One would assume that the diver to be recovered was in either a wetsuit or a drysuit... That doesn't count as a body bag? <sick-grin > That doesn't count as a body bag? Only for fools who don't understand thumbing a dive. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 >> During the 5 minutes he was planning to cut >> the diver harness, put the body inside a bag >> and attach a line to his gear. > >One would assume that the diver to be recovered was in either a wetsuit or a >drysuit... That doesn't count as a body bag? <sick-grin> The problem with recovering bodies after they have been in the water for some considerable time is that the only thing keeping it together is the suit. The head and the hands will detach. Not pleasant. -- Steve Barlow > The problem with recovering bodies after they have > been in the water for some considerable time is that > the only thing keeping it together is the suit. The head > and the hands will detach. > Not pleasant. What? No hood and gloves? Damn inconsiderate of the diver being recovered, don't 'cha think? <sick-grin >> The problem with recovering bodies after they have >> been in the water for some considerable time is that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >What? No hood and gloves? Damn inconsiderate of the diver being recovered, >don't 'cha think? <sick-grin> The damned Rolex had even been lost from the one I helped recover <sicker-grin> I thought of going looking for it but it was at 55+m and the thought of finding the head ... well -- Steve Barlow Body recovery at 270mts? Sounds like a job for an ROV... not a diver. At the very least, a diver in a commercial style rig, complete with commercial-level surface support, and an on-deck chamber. Get down there, get the body, follow an abbreviated deco plan to 30ft, get out of the water and into the chamber. 12 hours of deco is a ridiculous risk for a body recovery. >This was by no means a dive to set up a depth record. He planned this dive >with the sole purpose of recovering a body. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> Lee --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ >12 hours of deco is a ridiculous risk for a body recovery. It sounded like he got into a problem before the long deco... The thing is, he had been down to that depth previously in his record attempt and probably got a little be overconfident that he could do it again and a body reovery in the process... Perhaps he could as long as nothing extra went wrong... I suspect that something else went wrong and it was just enough to let Darwin catch up with him... We've all done things that probably weren't all that smart, but we've survived them (at least up to this point)... Some of our friends might not have been as lucky... > It sounded like he got into a problem before the long deco... The thing > is, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > smart, but we've survived them (at least up to this point)... Some of our > friends might not have been as lucky... I did something like that just last night. I had way, way too much Captain Morgans to drive home safely. Lee > I did something like that just last night. I had way, way too > much Captain Morgans to drive home safely. Been there... Good thing for autopilot on our cars, right? > I did something like that just last night. I had way, way too much > Captain Morgans to drive home safely. Hmmm . . . Lee Bell wrote (9/13/03): > Everybody has a job to do. Those of us in positions of public service > and, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > law in a public forum and even more foolish to broadcast the fact that you > have broken the law. >> I did something like that just last night. I had way, way too much >> Captain Morgans to drive home safely. > > Hmmm . . . You noticed too. > Hmmm . . . Jana had to be the designated driver, of course.......benefit of doubt and all. Curtis > Jana had to be the designated driver, of course.......benefit of doubt > and all. I'm not giving Jayna the benefit of the doubt. She probably had more to drink than Lee. Nope. Jayna drove separately. She headed home while I closed down the boat. Sometimes, you don't discover you should not be driving until after you're driving. I was nearly home and, with concentration, made it fine . . . but I still should not have been driving. Lee SignatureThe trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so. > >> Hmmm . . . [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Curtis > Sometimes, you don't discover you should not be driving until after > you're driving. Ride a motorcycle instead -- you'll discover it quicker (and more painfully)... <evil-grin >> Sometimes, you don't discover you should not be driving until after >> you're driving. > > Ride a motorcycle instead -- you'll discover it quicker (and more > painfully)... <evil-grin> Been there, done that. I didn't have an accident or anything, just realized I was being real stupid. I pulled over in the Keys and spent the night sleeping on the ground beside my bike. I never drove the bike after a drink again. Lee > > Sometimes, you don't discover you should not be driving until after > > you're driving. > > Ride a motorcycle instead -- you'll discover it quicker (and more > painfully)... <evil-grin> Yes. Oh, yes. > Nope. Jayna drove separately. She headed home while I closed down the > boat. Sometimes, you don't discover you should not be driving until after > you're driving. I was nearly home and, with concentration, made it fine . . > .. but I still should not have been driving. > > Lee Turn yourself in. > Turn yourself in. I've already reported him to DAMM -- Drunks Against Mad Mothers... <snicker > Nope. Jayna drove separately. She headed home while I closed down the > boat. Sometimes, you don't discover you should not be driving until after > you're driving. I was nearly home and, with concentration, made it fine . > . . but I still should not have been driving. Thank God you had your gun. You wouldn't want to be a law breaker or anything unRepublican like that. The fact is that you are a criminal and one who should be in jail. I don't care if you want to kill yourself, just do it in a manner that doesn't put the rest of us at risk. And "Captain Morgan's?" Yuck! >> Nope. Jayna drove separately. She headed home while I closed down the >> boat. Sometimes, you don't discover you should not be driving until >> after you're driving. I was nearly home and, with concentration, made it >> fine . . . but I still should not have been driving. > Thank God you had your gun. You wouldn't want to be a law breaker or > anything unRepublican like that. I'm not a Republican. > The fact is that you are a criminal and one who should be in jail. I > don't care if you want to kill yourself, just do it in a manner that > doesn't put the rest of us at risk. Fact is, you don't have the balls to post this in your own name. What makes you think I, or anybody else cares what you think. Lee "Have your read "Collapse?"" <shubistheantichrist@whitehous.gov> cowardly dribbled down his momma's chin .. <anonymous-crap-snipped> Oh gee, yet another cowardly anonymous fuckwad... Let's see, how does this go again? Oh yeah, I remember... <bitch-slap> <plonk Another anonymous punk wrote: > Thank God you had your gun. You wouldn't want to be a law breaker or > anything unRepublican like that. Be far worse to be a spineless, lickspittle liberal faggot like you, hiding in the corner, shaking like a wet Chihuahua, afraid of everything and everyone you cant control. > The fact is that you are a criminal and one who should be in jail. 1) He didnt break the law. 2) No one got hurt (or "damaged"). 3) Judgemental, arrogant, cocksuckers like you are exactly why we have the Constitution and Bill of Rights (especially the 2nd Amendment). > I don't care if you want to kill yourself, just do it in a manner that > doesn't put the rest of us at risk. So then shut the f.ck up. Everytime some self-righteous little cuntbubble like you runs his suck innocent people lose freedoms. > And "Captain Morgan's?" Yuck! Dont drink it, little man. <snipping most of Scooter's drunken rant> > 1) He didnt break the law. ???!!! Scott, You might want to seek medical attention. I'm beginning to suspect that all your drinking has resulted in a stroke. I wasnt drinking, shitbag, and my mental health is far better than yours, you see, I dont have to hide. > > I did something like that just last night. I had way, way too much > > Captain Morgans to drive home safely. > > Hmmm . . . A good lawyer sees dollar signs and starts humming. The driver pays by the hour - the victim agrees to a percentage of any eventual settlement. The prosecutor is steady with his salary. And Captain Morgan returns to his lofty position unscathed. Funny how a shift in things can help create misunderstandings. I know the dive that cost him his life was not for the purpose of setting any record. The previous dive, the one during which he discovered the body in the first place, was. He would not have been there either day if he were not trying to push beyond previous limits. No criticism intended, in either case. Lee SignatureThe trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so. > This was by no means a dive to set up a depth record. He planned this dive > with the sole purpose of recovering a body. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> Lee > I've only been diving for 20 years, and I'm not stupid enough to think > I'm qualified to make a dive like that. What was a 20 year old doing > trying it? That's a story I'd like to hear. Well, depending upon what the cave profile might have been, the original death might not have been at that depth anyway... Depending upon his buoyancy and any water flow through the cave, he might have originally died quite a bit shallower and sunk... Couldn't have been all that shallow though since no one bothered to recover his body previously... I did a quick Google search, but didn't find any maps of the cave profile... Frankly, I suspect that the 20 year old knew that he was invunerable -- just like we all did at that age... Assuming that we live long enough to get older, we learn that we weren't invunerable, we were just lucky... Sometimes Darwin sleeps, sometimes he doesn't... For the most part, Darwin has been napping during my non-survival-oriented endeavors throughout my life... I seriously doubt that I have any sort of great skill in my various questionable endeavors that has kept me alive... Oh well... Live fast, die young, leave a cute widow... You have a cute widow . . . I mean widow to be? Lee SignatureThe trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so. >> I've only been diving for 20 years, and I'm not stupid enough to think >> I'm qualified to make a dive like that. What was a 20 year old doing [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Oh well... Live fast, die young, leave a cute widow... > You have a cute widow . . . I mean widow to be? You're accusing me of still being young? > Well, depending upon what the cave profile might have been, the original > death might not have been at that depth anyway... Depending upon his > buoyancy and any water flow through the cave, he might have originally died > quite a bit shallower and sunk... Couldn't have been all that shallow though > since no one bothered to recover his body previously... I did a quick Google > search, but didn't find any maps of the cave profile... See http://www.deepcave.com/pages/1/index.htm The cave is shaped like the letter "b". this place is pretty well known; Sheck Exley tried for a record there. The guy who was on the bottom died in '94 in a depth record attempt. > The cave is shaped like the letter "b". > this place is pretty well known; Sheck Exley tried for a record there. > The guy who was on the bottom died in '94 in a depth record attempt. Maybe one of the expert self-trained solo cave divers will build himself a rebreather and do the recovery? If he starts laughing too hard though, could be a triple play. Curtis > Maybe one of the expert self-trained solo cave divers will build himself > a rebreather and do the recovery? > If he starts laughing too hard though, could be a triple play. Should be a piece of cake, eh? 'Specially with a scooter. Maybe wave a few checks at the Reaper when he comes to play. Ballard had it right long ago. They could recover both of them with a suitable ROV without endangering or wasting future life or families. > Ballard had it right long ago. > > They could recover both of them with a suitable > ROV without endangering or wasting future life > or families. Ahhh, but there's not glory in that... What kind of bragging rights do you get by saying, "I operated the ROV that recovered a body"? Let's be truthful... This is all about bragging rights... That's not to say that he wasn't wanting to "do the right thing" by recovering the body, but there is still a bit of bragging rights involved in it... I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing though... Most of the great accomplishments in civilization have been achieved by guys wanting bragging rights about something or other... Be it the pyramids or landing on the moon, someone, somewhere, was wanting bragging rights... It might be a noble endeavor, but there's still an essence of bragging rights associated with it... Some people are more honest about it being about bragging rights... Some delude themselves into thinking it is just for a noble cause... In the end, Darwin makes the determination (not whether it's noble or not, but whether you get to brag or not)... Oh well... Life sucks... But the alternative is not all that great either... > > Ballard had it right long ago. > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Oh well... Life sucks... But the alternative is not all that great either... I understand; Bragging about leaving your family without you should be included. >>http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11898696%255E1702,00.html > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Me? I'm a claustrophobe. I get the shivers looking at a cave mouth. > I have nightmares about getting stuck in caves. Solo diving is safe until something goes wrong. > Solo diving is safe until something goes wrong. ALL " diving is safe until something goes wrong." >> Solo diving is safe until something goes wrong. > > ALL " diving is safe until something goes wrong." At least if you have someone else besides you and something goes wrong they may be able to bail you out. I would have thought such a dive would be made by a team. Adam > At least if you have someone else besides you > and something goes wrong they may be able to > bail you out. Or both of your could end up dying... Darwin isn't exactly known as a team player... Sometimes you do stupid things and you die... Sometimes you don't do anything stupid and you still die... The only certainty is that sooner or later you *are* going to die... Might as well have fun in the meantime... http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11898696%255E1702,00.html http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw1105547041978B262 The bodies of Australian diver Dave Shaw and South African diver Deon Dreyer were recovered from the world's third deepest freshwater cave, Boesmansgat, in the Northern Cape on Wednesday. Shaw went missing on Saturday while trying to recover the remains of Dreyer, a diver who blacked out and drowned in the cave while diving there in 1994. Dreyer was 20 years old at the time. His body has been lying at a depth of 270m at the bottom of the cave. Police spokesperson Inspector Louis van Vuuren told Sapa that both bodies had been brought to the surface. "The bodies have been found and brought up. That is all I can say at this stage." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A press statement would be released later on Wednesday evening. - Sapa http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11898696%255E1702,00.html http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw1105547041978B262 Excellent. There is at least a little comfort for the families, and hopefully we will know what killed them. > http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11898696%255E1702,00.html > > http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw1105547041978B262 > > Excellent. There is at least a little comfort for the families, and > hopefully we will know what killed them. No doubt the police sent a team to recover the bodies not a solo diver. Adam > Excellent. There is at least a little comfort for the families, and > hopefully we will know what killed them. Here's more - apparantly nobody went to get them, they were in the line when the police pulled it up - just like Sheck. Australian diver's body recovered in South Africa http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1280991.htm By Africa correspondent Zoe Daniel The body of an Australian cave diver has been unexpectedly recovered in South Africa, where he disappeared over the weekend while attempting to recover the body of a fellow diver. Police divers retrieving ropes used in Saturday's failed attempt have achieved Australian Dave Shaw's aim - to bring up the body of Deon Dreyer, who disappeared at the bottom of Bushman's Cave 10 years ago. But with Dreyer's body was Shaw's. The two were linked together and buoyant with the Australian's dive gear and had risen from the cave's 270-metre bottom to 35 metres. Shaw tried to recover 20-year-old Dreyers' body for the diver's family on Saturday but was claimed by the the world's third deepest freshwater cave himself. He had asked that no attempt be made to find him should something go wrong. > > Excellent. There is at least a little comfort for the families, and > > hopefully we will know what killed them. > Here's more - apparantly nobody went to get them, they were in the line > when the police pulled it up - just like Sheck. > Australian diver's body recovered in South Africa > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1280991.htm Even more excellent. A better outcome couldnt be asked for, except, of course, that both of the deceased still be alive. No one else need be compelled to rescue the two of them and be the third. Al Wells quotee: > He had asked that no attempt be made to find him should something go > wrong. That's rather ironic, since a recovery was his reason for being there. SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > Al Wells quotee: > > > He had asked that no attempt be made to find him should something go > > wrong. > > That's rather ironic, since a recovery was his reason for being there. It just goes to show that even he knew how stupid it was to try. >> That's rather ironic, since a recovery was his reason for being there. > > It just goes to show that even he knew how stupid it was to try. Not at all. It does reflect that he knew how dangerous it would be to try and that he cared enough about others to prefer that they not endanger themselves in an attempt to recover his body. He took responsibility for his action and specifically asked others not to risk themselves if his actions proved to have a less favorable outcome than he expected. Lee > > Al Wells quotee: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It just goes to show that even he knew how stupid it was to try. It might appear stupid to you with your experience, what do you know of Dave Shaw or Don Shirley or their experience in cave, deep and recovery diving. Try researching before passing inane comments on very experienced divers. Regards Richard > reasonable > > belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. > > > > If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > Try researching before passing inane comments on > very experienced divers. To be totally accurate, I believe that he was passing comments on very experienced DEAD divers... Just to put it in perspective, of course... In the end, Darwin always wins... It's not a question of IF, it's a question of WHEN... > > > Al Wells quotee: > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It might appear stupid to you with your experience, It isn't stupid for me and my experience, it's suicidal. Apparently, it wasn't much better for him. > It might appear stupid to you with your experience, what do you know > of Dave Shaw or Don Shirley or their experience in cave, deep and > recovery diving. Try researching before passing inane comments on > very experienced divers. There are a number of very experienced divers reading and posting here, none of them do anything but laugh at the proposition of doing a 1,000 ffw on SCUBA. It is insanity, and the proof of that assertion was on the end of the rope pulled out of that cave. It isnt "inane comments", it is aparently very accurate comment. People like you glorify stunts like this, and people die as a result. It would be simply silly if it werent tragic for the families. Two very experienced divers are dead, and died at the bottom of that cave. How many have been there? How many professional or commercial divers have made that dive? How many would even consider it on SCUBA with no chamber, no comms? What is at the bottom of that cave that is worth dying for? > > It might appear stupid to you with your experience, what do you know > > of Dave Shaw or Don Shirley or their experience in cave, deep and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > like you glorify stunts like this, and people die as a result. It would > be simply silly if it weren't tragic for the families. You don't know anything about me or apparently the team of divers who mounted this recovery attempt. I don't glorify anything. I also don't pass judgement on things about which I'm not qualified to comment on. > Two very experienced divers are dead, and died at the bottom of that > cave. Yes it is very sad but it was their choice to do the dive, at a depth and location they had dived a couple of months before > How many have been there? > > How many professional or commercial divers have made that dive? How > many would even consider it on SCUBA with no chamber, no comms? > What is at the bottom of that cave that is worth dying for? Nothing on any dive is worth dying for, but some divers push the limits these two divers are very experienced and it was their call. One died and the other didn't will Don continue to make these type of dives ? Should he stop because others believe it is too dangerous ? IMHO I believe that they had the experience to make the judgement call I don't have the experience to question their decisions. Regards Richard > You don't know anything about me or apparently the team of divers > who mounted this recovery attempt. I read everything available on the teams and divers. > I don't glorify anything. I also don't pass judgement on things about which > I'm not qualified to comment on. Bullshit, that is exactly what you are doing. I have read the websites available, and these divers are all in it for bragging rights. PERIOD. To expose yourself and your family to that risk for bragging rights is sophomoric at best, downright deadly at worst. A good number of people have been to the bottom of that cave and back, there is nothing down there but a personal depth record, strictly for the glory of saying "I been to the bottom of Bushmansgat." Anyone thinking they are going to do anything usefull at that depth is delusional. And, as we see here, deadly. Again. > > Two very experienced divers are dead, and died at the bottom of that > > cave. > > Yes it is very sad but it was their choice to do the dive, at a depth and > location they had dived a couple of months before Are you unable to see the very plain pattern here? Diving to those depths on SCUBA is rolling the dice, nothing more. These two lost the roll, and others will as well. For what? So people can stand by later and say "At least he died doing what he loved."? > Nothing on any dive is worth dying for, but some divers push the limits > these two divers are very experienced and it was their call. Doesnt make it right, acceptable or anything that needs to be held up as a example. There are many more divers, with the same or far more experience, telling them and everyone else that this type of diving is suicidal. > One died and the other didn't will Don continue to make these type of dives ? > Should he stop because others believe it is too dangerous ? No, he should wake up, smell the coffee, and have a cup before he kills himself or someone else. Give it a year and ask Shaw's kids and widow what they think of the whole mess. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to go to the bottom of that cave, except to have bragging rights or to commit suicide. > IMHO I believe that they had the experience to make the judgement > call I don't have the experience to question their decisions. The end result suggests that they did not have the experience or the judgement ability to plan or execute that dive; they are dead. PERIOD. I will also add that they very selfishly hurt those left behind, such as their families and friends. The rest of us in the SCUBA world pay for their baloney with skyrocketing insurance costs, which translate into gear costs at the consumer level. For instance, the insurance companies are now pushing legislation to make all gear manufacturers hold a liability policy that costs $50k a year, and has a $50k deductible, or they wont insure an instructor or agency on said gear. Get ready to have your choice of gear and manufacturers evaporate if it goes through. Experienced divers killing themselves, and leaving behind a family for the lawyers/buzzards to gather round and sue everyone and everything involved, has put a dent in their profits. With the recent ruling that a waiver is all but worthless as protection from lawsuit by the decedents family, this kind of activity is something the rest of us, who have no depth record needs, pay for every time we dive. The only people benefitting from this activity is the Bar Association and the insurance companies. The rest of us get the bill. > Experienced divers killing themselves, and leaving behind a family for > the lawyers/buzzards to gather round and sue everyone and everything [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The only people benefitting from this activity is the Bar Association > and the insurance companies. The rest of us get the bill. We'll never prevent divers from doing stupid things nor will we ever prevent Darwin from calling them on their actions... I suspect that the real problem is the lawyers... If we kill them off, the problem will be solved... Some might say that this endeavor might result in some innocents being killed... Well, first of all, I would have to say, "Lawyers? Innocents? Not fuckin likely!"... Irregardless, the one or two who *might* be innocent would definitely be acceptable collateral damages for removing this plague upon human civilization... Hey Greg... Got some swamps I want to show you... > We'll never prevent divers from doing stupid things nor will we ever > prevent Darwin from calling them on their actions... I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > *might* be innocent would definitely be acceptable collateral damages > for removing this plague upon human civilization... Reminds me of this gem: What do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of the sea? A good start! :o) SignatureJoe http://joe.hotchkiss.com > > We'll never prevent divers from doing stupid things nor will we ever > > prevent Darwin from calling them on their actions... I suspect that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > A good start! > :o) What do you call 500 lawyers skydiving? Skeet. "sportsfan" > Nothing on any dive is worth dying for, but some divers push the limits > these two divers are very experienced and it was their call. One died > and the other didn't will Don continue to make these type of dives ? > Should he stop because others believe it is too dangerous ? > IMHO I believe that they had the experience to make the judgement > call I don't have the experience to question their decisions. They made the dives for bragging rights... They lost... No big deal... Darwin has shown them the error of their ways... Others will learn from their mistakes... Others will try to emulate them... Darwin will be there waiting to instruct them also... Maybe his wife and kids might prefer him to still be around (maybe not), but to hell with them... What do they know anyway? The important thing is to be able to have bragging rights... >> It just goes to show that even he knew how stupid it was to try. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Regards > Richard It killed him. How smart is that? > It killed him. How smart is that? I would have to reserve judgement until I had met his wife... |
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