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Scuba Forum / General / January 2005European Tanks
I recently noticed a French tank on eBay for sale... It's rated in bars and probably doesn't have a DOT stamp -- probably whatever the European equivalent might be... It's also likely that it has metric threads, so I might be hard pressed to get a manifold for it without ordering it from overseas... From the dimensions that were given (8" diameter by 29" high) and it being 230 bar, I'm thinking that it might be a 130 cu-ft tank... It's a USD-Spiro tank... Would there be a problem with getting a current hydro, VIS, and air fills on it over here? >I recently noticed a French tank on eBay for sale... It's rated in bars and >probably doesn't have a DOT stamp -- probably whatever the European [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Would there be a problem with getting a current hydro, VIS, and air fills on >it over here? No DOT stamp, no hydro.... --  SignatureKarl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist http://www.denninger.net My home on the net - links to everything I do! http://scubaforum.org Your UNCENSORED place to talk about DIVING! http://www.spamcuda.net SPAM FREE mailboxes - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME! http://genesis3.blogspot.com Musings Of A Sentient Mind [snip] > >Would there be a problem with getting a current hydro, VIS, and air fills on > >it over here? > > No DOT stamp, no hydro.... Not always. > Not always. Correct. There are a few dive shops around that have knowledgeable people working in them, that would gladly fill a European tank. Going to the ones that don't, and listening to the experts lecture on why your European tank is dangerous, would negate any warm and fuzzies. > Would there be a problem with getting a current hydro, VIS, and air fills on > it over here? How many dive shops are listed in your local phone book? How long would it take to conduct a poll to get a rough idea of the percentage of places that wouldn't have a problem setting you up? SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. > How many dive shops are listed in your local phone > book? How long would it take to conduct a poll to > get a rough idea of the percentage of places that > wouldn't have a problem setting you up? In case you didn't noticed, the question was asked on 12/25... The only place open was rec.scuba... Well, a couple of Chinese restaurants and daiquari shops also, but definitely no dive shops... >> How many dive shops are listed in your local phone >> book? How long would it take to conduct a poll to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >place open was rec.scuba... Well, a couple of Chinese restaurants and >daiquari shops also, but definitely no dive shops... What kind of crappy sevice is that? How are we supposed to get fills for the new tanks? Ooops, forgot, you just go out back and fire up the compressor. Signaturedillon "When the French are against it, you know we can't be far wrong." - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman > What kind of crappy sevice is that? How are we supposed to get fills > for the new tanks? Yeah, damned inconvenient of them not to be open on the 25th or on Sunday where I could ask them the question... I spoke with the seller on the phone today and she said that she would sell me 2 of the tanks for $75 plus actual shipping costs (or I could pick them up in Miami), assuming that I win the bid... She sent me the stampings on the tank neck and from what I can decode, they're 15 liter tanks which should make them 120 cu-ft tanks... Well, I did win the auction and now I'll have 240 cu-ft for a total of $115... For that price, I figured it was worth the gamble... Here's the tank markings: M25x200 SPIROTECHNIQUE P4AA29860 cal5o230BAR PE345BAR 3/94 V15 1L M20 4K9 AIR > Ooops, forgot, you just go out back and fire up the compressor. Don't have one yet... Well, a shop one, but 150 psi isn't going to help much for a SCUBA tank... Yes it could if you had a booster and a good filtering system > Yes it could if you had a booster and a good filtering system But they're probably as expensive as just a HP air pump, aren't they? >>In case you didn't noticed, the question was asked on 12/25... The only >>place open was rec.scuba... Well, a couple of Chinese restaurants and >>daiquari shops also, but definitely no dive shops... >> > What kind of crappy sevice is that? How are we supposed to get fills > for the new tanks? There are 10 tanks in my home. All of them are full. New tanks are supposed to come pre-filled. Lee > There are 10 tanks in my home. All of them are full. New tanks are > supposed to come pre-filled. Brand new ones do -- at least if you buy them from the local dive shop... They also come with inflated prices, but when the shop throws in the free air fill cards, it makes it worthwhile to buy them (at least AL80s) locally instead of mail order... Steel tanks are even more inflated in cost... I've got 7 tanks at home (3 AL80s and 4 steel-72s) and had been wanting a higher capacity steel tank for back gas, but wasn't willing to pay the usual inflated prices on them... Assuming I can get these hydroed, inspected, and filled, I'll have come out pretty good -- $115 for the two tanks with DIN/yoke fittings, $22 each for the hydro, inspection, and air fill for a total of $159... Steel tanks last nearly *forever* anyway -- I've got some steel 72s from 1969 and 1970 that are still in good shape (i.e. they pass hydro and inspection without so much as a tumble needed)... Assuming this works, I've ended up with $159 for 240 cu-ft of tanks... That's not a bad deal for 1994 tanks... I think I'll have enough gas to do the Oriskany now -- 240 cu-ft on my back, 160 cu-ft on my sides... <grin> Yo, Karl... Can I get an air fill before we hit the Oriskany? > Yo, Karl... Can I get an air fill before we hit the Oriskany? He could probably orally inflate them to 3500psig@140*F for you. Curtis > He could probably orally inflate them to 3500psig@140*F for you. Is that what one would call a "hot fill"? <grin >There are 10 tanks in my home. All of them are full. > New tanks are supposed to come pre-filled. Well, these didn't come prefilled, but they were waiting by my front door when I got home this evening... They're 15.1 liter tanks, so they are definitely 120 cu-ft tanks... They're in surprisingly good shape... I'll take a wire brush to them to remove the paint and get them back to a more normal raw galvanized exterior... I removed the boots and there wasn't any oxidation that needed to be removed... One thing I found interesting about the boots was that they had a built-in roller on the bottom edge of them... Not planning on using them, but it was definitely a different design from what I was used to... They also had some plastic handles mounted on the neck of the tank so as to give someone with shorter arms a way to carry them without holding them by the valve... The only thing that I could find wrong with them was that the O-rings needed replacing... So now that I've got 240 cu-ft of back gas, what am I going to do with it? <grin >> New tanks are supposed to come pre-filled. > Well, these didn't come prefilled . . . They aren't new either. > One thing I found interesting about the boots was that they had a built-in > roller on the > bottom edge of them... Not planning on using them, but it was > definitely a different design from what I was used to... If it originated here, it's also a very old design. I've seen them before, but can't recall when or where. > They also had some plastic handles mounted on the neck of the tank so as > to give > someone with shorter arms a way to carry them without holding them by > the valve... I suspect they are there to allow them to be rolled more conveniently. I've seen the plastic handles too. Be careful using them. We're talking plastic, possibly old and somewhat brittle plastic and tanks that are heavier than the average, particularly when full. > So now that I've got 240 cu-ft of back gas, what am I going to do with it? > <grin> Try to find somebody in the States to Hydro, visual and/or fill them? Lee > They aren't new either. Well, they're new to *me*... <grin> > If it originated here, it's also a very old design. I've seen > them before, but can't recall when or where. Can't be too old, the tanks are only 1994 models... I suspect the boots came on the tanks initially since the bottoms are rounded... Are the bottoms on all steel tanks somewhat rounded? All of *my* steel tanks are rounded, but that's not exactly a definitive sample... > I suspect they are there to allow them to be rolled more > conveniently. I've seen the plastic handles too. Be > careful using them. We're talking plastic, possibly old > and somewhat brittle plastic and tanks that are heavier > than the average, particularly when full. The plastic is still in good shape... Still fairly flexible... No UV deterioration or such from what I can tell... They held up well enough without any bending or cracking when I was carrying them to the garage... I wasn't aware of the rollers at that point... > Try to find somebody in the States to Hydro, visual > and/or fill them? Of course... But after that? Not much use for them in Lake Pontchartrain considering how shallow it is, even if I did want to dive in 12 ft of mud... I think I've got enough capacity for my next trip to Jackson Blue... Especially if I combine it with two AL80s as stages / sidemounts... <grin> Damn, that would be a lot of weight to be carrying around... At least 200 lbs of gear... Yea hawh! > Can't be too old, the tanks are only 1994 models... I suspect the boots came > on the tanks initially since the bottoms are rounded... Are the bottoms on > all steel tanks somewhat rounded? All of *my* steel tanks are rounded, but > that's not exactly a definitive sample... Only the Heiser Worthington tanks from Austria have segmentoidal rounded bottoms with e definite edge, all other I know have completely rounded bottoms. Matthias > I'll take a wire brush to them to remove the paint and get them back to > a more normal raw galvanized exterior... I don't expect them to be galvanized. The better ones of europeen tanks tend to be sandblasted, then hot zinc sprayed, then laquered. If in doubt, I would check the paint thickness using an ultrasonic gauge. I removed the boots and there > wasn't any oxidation that needed to be removed... One thing I found > interesting about the boots was that they had a built-in roller on the > bottom edge of them... Obviously french design. > So now that I've got 240 cu-ft of back gas, what am I going to do with > it? <grin> D15 is a bit short on the back to do valve drills, and you not like the balance, which is better with D18, or longish D12es. A single 120 is fair enough fo warm water rec dives to 65m, with/or an overall time of 60-75 minutes. Matthias > I don't expect them to be galvanized. > The better ones of europeen tanks tend to be sandblasted, then hot zinc > sprayed, then laquered. If in doubt, I would check the paint thickness > using an ultrasonic gauge. Definitely looks like galvanizing... They look just like my steel-72s after having been gone over with the wire brush attachment to the angle grinder... > Obviously french design. Why, because the French are too lazy to carry their tanks nomally? > D15 is a bit short on the back to do valve drills They don't seem much different in length to the Al80s, so I don't see how it would be much worse than them... On the other hand, I've had enough broken bones that reaching my valves is not that easy anyway... > A single 120 is fair enough fo warm water rec dives to 65m, with/or an > overall time of 60-75 minutes. I've got a pair of them, so I'll be putting both of them on my back eventually... >>I don't expect them to be galvanized. >>The better ones of europeen tanks tend to be sandblasted, then hot zinc [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Definitely looks like galvanizing... They look just like my steel-72s after > having been gone over with the wire brush attachment to the angle grinder... Can you put a pic somewhere? I once tried but failed to have steels galvanized, the compony would not do it. They said the bottle was to be dipped into a hot zinc bath of 450+ Centigrades. Now this would remove most of the strength given by the heat treatment of the steel. >>Obviously french design. > > Why, because the French are too lazy to carry their tanks nomally? It's prolly a relic from the horseshoe collar BC days, where you had the harness attached to the bottle. Matthias <snip> >I once tried but failed to have steels galvanized, the compony would not >do it. >They said the bottle was to be dipped into a hot zinc bath of 450+ >Centigrades. >Now this would remove most of the strength given by the heat treatment >of the steel. I got my Cold Galvanized with a product called Zinga. http://www.zinga-uk.com/ The tanks were shotblasted then sprayed. The reaction was only completed when exposed to high humidity. They have lasted well so far. -- Steve Barlow > Can you put a pic somewhere? Of the steel-72s? Oh, ok... I just so happen to have some of them on my web server... Here one, try this URL: http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=temp-photos-2004-12/steel-s cuba-tanks/DCP_1368.jpg > I once tried but failed to have steels galvanized, > the compony would not do it. > They said the bottle was to be dipped into a hot > zinc bath of 450+ Centigrades. > Now this would remove most of the strength > given by the heat treatment of the steel. Then what does PST use? <snip> Hmmm... That URL got wrapped... Let me try again... <http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=temp-photos-2004-12/steel- scuba-tanks/DCP_1368.jpg > Hmmm... That URL got wrapped... Let me try again... <snip> Nope... Still didn't work... Oh well, cut and paste it into your browser... >>Can you put a pic somewhere? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=temp-photos-2004-12/steel-s > cuba-tanks/DCP_1368.jpg What believe to I see here, is a relatively fine and even layer of zinc. Whith the hot dipped type, you should be able to see a "crystallic structure, a bit like frozen ice on a windowpane, where you can see big flat crystals. This looks more like hot sprayed zinc, where zinc powder is melted down by a flame, and blasted onto the freshly sandblasted ( SA3) steel surface; or like galvanized ( huh, you were writing that already) steel, where to my knowldege temperatures are much more milder. Do you know how thick the coating is? >>I once tried but failed to have steels galvanized, >>the compony would not do it. >>They said the bottle was to be dipped into a hot >>zinc bath of 450+ Centigrades. >>Now this would remove most of the strength >>given by the heat treatment of the steel. This is hot dipped, not the "galvanized" stuff you probably use. We do mostly hot dipping, may be becuase it gives a thicker coat, and is less succeptible to environmental problems. Matthias > We do mostly hot dipping, may be becuase it gives a thicker coat, and is > less succeptible to environmental problems. I feel obliged to add, in construction works, not in scuba tanks. Matthias >This looks more like hot sprayed zinc, where zinc > powder is melted down by a flame, and blasted > onto the freshly sandblasted ( SA3) steel surface; > or like galvanized ( huh, you were writing that > already) steel, where to my knowldege temperatures > are much more milder. I spent today cleaning up the two new tanks... Instead of using an angle grinder with a wire brush on them (which would have definitely been quicker), I used my power washer (somewhere around 2400-2700 psi, IIRC)... It would flake the paint off the tank and leave a nice brand new galvanized looking surface underneath it... I knew that I was going to be getting wet in the process, so I was wearing flops and shorts... Found out that those chips of paint kind of sting on bare skin... Finished up most of it except for a small area underneath each boot that I could get down to the primer, but not all the way to the metal before it got too dark outside to see anymore... I'll work on it some more tomorrow, perhaps using the wire brush on the angle grinder for any stubborn areas... Looks like I'm going to be needing a new valve on one of the tanks... It appears that it was dropped on the valve enough to dent it enough that the DIN to yoke converter cannot be removed... A yoke might even not seat correctly on it either even if I left the converter in there... Not sure if this was the condition of the tank initially or it got damaged in the FedEx shipping... It wasn't boxed up, it was just shipped with a label on the tank... Well, I had been considering getting a manifold for it anyway... Just got to find one with M25 threads... Finished up getting the paint off one of the tanks today -- the one with the dented valve... The power washer wasn't making much headway, so I used the angle grinder and wire brush on it... It wasn't making much headway on the primer either, but it changed the color of it to gray and that was good enough for me... On the other tank, I put some paint stripper on the last few spots of primer that would not come off with the paint stripper and I'll try rinsing it off with the power washer tomorrow, I guess... Maybe it will soften it up enough that I can finish cleaning the tank... On the one that I had more or less finished, I took it up to the local fire extinguisher hydro place... The guy looked at the number on the tank and said that he would be able to hydro it... He gave me a tour of his shop and before I left, I mentioned that the tank had metric threads on it... He said that it shouldn't be a problem since they have quite a few different tank adapters... We went back into the shop to make sure and it turned out that he didn't have the right adapter for it... From looking at it, a standard 3/4" fitting would work, but it's just slightly off on size -- enough so that it won't even start (which is good since it thereby won't ruin your threads)... Looks like I'll have to check at the place where I got my tanks done last year over in New Orleans... Turns out that the damage to the valve was done by FedEx... I examined the photos of the tanks that had been taken before they were shipped... They must have dropped the tank on the valve... It's pretty much in the 11:00 position if you are facing the O-ring, so they needed to have dropped it pretty straight down... I'm not sure if a FedEx claim can be made on it since the tanks were not in a box, they were just sitting loose with a shipping sticker on their side... > <snip> I'm not sure if a FedEx claim can > be made on it since the tanks were not in a box, they were just sitting > loose with a shipping sticker on their side... If Fedex has accepted an item for shipping, they are responsible for damages. I have had items refused because of poor shipping and that was the reason they gave me. In your case, the shipping desk screwed up by accepting the tank the first place. On a related note, I remember a dive store owner that tried to force a US cylinder valve into one of those old Beuchat boilers. It blew out and apparently caused some damage. He and Beuchat went around in court on that one for a while. Dunno who finally won. I am not sure where you might find a replacement valve in the US when Fedex comes through with a payment. Good luck! SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.rayzplace.com > I am not sure where you might find a replacement valve in > the US when Fedex comes through with a payment. Here's a photo of the damaged valve: http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=scuba-tanks/spiro-1-1.jpg Called around to find out if any of the hydro shops could handle the M25 threads... The place I took it to yesterday didn't have the adapter for their machine.. The places that I called today didn't know if they had the adapter... Apparently, they just try various ones until one fits... The place that I had used for my other 8 tanks last year referred me to a machine shop that they use when they don't have an adapter... What I'll probably do is get an adapter from the M25 thread to the standard 3/4" threads and keep that with me so that I'll always be able to get a hydro done... As I'm sure that Scott can verify, it's a pretty simple bit of machining to create this sort of adapter out of a chunk of hexagonal (so that it can be tightened by wrenches) brass or steel... > > I am not sure where you might find a replacement valve in > > the US when Fedex comes through with a payment. > Here's a photo of the damaged valve: > http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=scuba-tanks/spiro-1-1.jpg It's a common European valve. > Called around to find out if any of the hydro shops could handle the M25 > threads... The place I took it to yesterday didn't have the adapter for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > machining to create this sort of adapter out of a chunk of hexagonal (so > that it can be tightened by wrenches) brass or steel... Insanity. Any adapter of the sort you propose would be absolutely not something I would do for anyone, for any money, nor would I recommend it. Are you sure of the threads? I can send you real dimensions, but you will have to have access to a set of mikes and three-wires. Scott > It's a common European valve. Yep... Just a slight dent in it to make it a CUSTOM valve... <grin> > Insanity. > > Any adapter of the sort you propose would be absolutely > not something I would do for anyone, for any money, nor > would I recommend it. Why not? It's only for the hydro, not to be able to use a normal valve in it afterwards... They machine it out of a piece of hexagonal brass or stainless steel that is approximately 1.5-2" across the flats... One end has the male M25 (M25-2 actually, I believe) threads on it, and the other end has a female thread that is compatible to the neck of a normal American tank (3/4"-14, I believe)... A small hole (probably about 1/16-1/8" in diameter) would need to be drilled down the center of it... The hydro shop would use the normal adapter that they use on American SCUBA tanks... A couple of minutes worth of use out of it for the two tanks every 5 years... The hydro shop currently uses similar items for their hydro machine, the only difference is that instead of going to the 3/4"-14, each hydro machine has their own "common" fitting that the adapters fit into... All in all, it's very low tech... > Are you sure of the threads? Fairly sure... I know that they are M25, and since they appear to be the course threads, that would make them M25-2... The valve sealing design is exactly like American tanks, it's just that the threads and hole diameter are slightly different... > I can send you real dimensions, but you will have to > have access to a set of mikes and three-wires. I suspect that the shop that I will be using to create this adapter will have it... I'm trying to find a shop around here without requiring me to drive all the way over to the shop that the hydro shop in New Orleans recommended... Turns out that the hydro guy that I've been discussing this with is an ex-Marine (kind of)... He wasn't in for all that long, he kept jumping the fence in boot camp... Attitude readjustment didn't seem to work on him... Eventually, the Corp gave up and kicked his butt out... The Navy would have kicked him out a lot sooner... If a person can't hack boot camp, the Navy is more than willing to let him go and cut their losses before they have too much time and money invested in him... Of course, the Corp has a philosophy of never giving up and that probably didn't work so well in that case... MOS of 0311, of course... Hell, he's about 3 years younger than I am and has SEVEN kids... Shheeetttt!!! A Catholic, of course... For some reason, they just can't quite figure out what causes them... Must be in the water, I guess... How he can afford 7 kids on a hydro tester's salary, I have no fuckin' idea... 2mm pitch = .078" 14 pitch = .0714" Check what you have against this: ................. 3/4-14 NPSM ................. Outside diameter of pipe....................... 1.0500 Threads per inch............................... 14.0 Decimal lead................................... 0.07143 Allowance...................................... 0.0016 Max. major dia. of external thread...class 2A.. 1.034 Min. major dia. of external thread...class 2A.. 1.024 Max. pitch dia. of external thread...class 2A.. 0.9873 Min. pitch dia. of external thread...class 2A.. 0.9820 Min. minor dia. of internal thread...class 2B.. 0.958 Max. minor dia. of internal thread...class 2B.. 0.970 Min. pitch dia. of internal thread...class 2B.. 0.9889 Max. pitch dia. of internal thread...class 2B.. 0.9958 > 2mm pitch = .078" > > 14 pitch = .0714" Yep, like I said, close, but not quite... As we used to say in the Navy, "Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear depth charges"... Thanks for the other info, I'll relay it to whomever I choose to build the adapter for me... Becaues of the offset of the dip tube in a SCUBA valve, it would not be practical to create an adapter that could be used when the tank was in service since the wall thickness would probably be too thin... Plus, you would theoretically be adding yet another failure point with the additional O-ring, not to mention having basically a longer valve stem that would be more likely to break if dropped... This brings up another question though... How many people have ever had the O-ring between the tank neck and the valve rupture during a dive? The threads don't seem all that tight fitting by themselves, so it would seem that there would be a massive air loss... Perhaps under pressure, the threads fit tighter and it wouldn't be a catastrophic leak... Anyone ever seen one happen? Oh wow, we've actually got a diving thread going... Shame on us... > > 2mm pitch = .078" > > > > 14 pitch = .0714" And a .025 wall thickness; might as well use pipe dope. > Oh wow, we've actually got a diving thread going... Shame on us... Have you seen the "new" 1911? http://www.colt.com/CMCI/1911WWI.asp "Scott" wote ... > And a .025 wall thickness; might as well use pipe dope. I'm thinking that perhaps I'm not describing the design correctly... I'm not talking about a bushing where the female threads are inside of the male threads... It's probably more like reducer... If you would like, I could draw up a quick sketch and post it on my website for you... > Have you seen the "new" 1911? > > http://www.colt.com/CMCI/1911WWI.asp Excuse the possible Alzheimer moment, but the original M1911 didn't have a Series 70 firing system, did it? > "Scott" wote ... > > And a .025 wall thickness; might as well use pipe dope. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Excuse the possible Alzheimer moment, but the original M1911 didn't have a > Series 70 firing system, did it? Nope. Thank a lawyer. > Nope. Yeah, I was thinking that the Series 70 was named that way because it came about in the 1970s... Same naming scheme for the Series 80... Of course, It's been over 30 years, so there's a chance that the neurons that were storing that important fact were pickled one too many times in alcohol... > Thank a lawyer. Well, ok, if you insist.... Here goes.... <click Series 70 incorporated the split "accurizer" bushing, and the Series 80 incorporated the firing pin block mechanism. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/s70_colts.htm > And a .025 wall thickness; might as well use pipe dope. Just in case my description still isn't making sense, here's a quick side profile drawing... I didn't draw the threads on it though since it's too much work in MS-PaintBrush... http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=scuba-tanks/converter.gif > > And a .025 wall thickness; might as well use pipe dope. > Just in case my description still isn't making sense, here's a quick side > profile drawing... I didn't draw the threads on it though since it's too > much work in MS-PaintBrush... > http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=scuba-tanks/converter.gif Ah. Still, why not just get a European valve? > Ah. Still, why not just get a European valve? The part he is having made is just the "spud" or adapter for doing a hydro. Of course, it is over engineered, but ... ;-) Just my $.02 SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.rayzplace.com > Of course, it is over engineered, but ... ;-) Over-engineered just wastes a little brass or stainless steel... UNDER-engineered is dangerous... Instead of needing a 1" piece of 1" diameter metal, I'm using a 3" piece of perhaps 2" diameter metal... 1" for the male thread... 1" for the hex head in the middle... 1" for the female threaded area... One advantage of this is that since it is large, it might be easier to find every 5 years after I have misplaced it... Same reason that wireless computer tracking devices (mice, trackballs, etc) are a bad idea -- at least with a cord, you can find it on your desk by tracing it from the back of your PC)... > One advantage of this is that since it is large, it might > be easier to find every 5 years after I have misplaced it... "Paint it titty-pink." one of my old bosses used to say... > "Paint it titty-pink." one of my old bosses used to say... Irregardless of the fact that paint would be bad for a threaded object like this, I want a DD-cup instead of an A-cup... <grin > Of course, it is over engineered, but ... ;-) Yep, a little over-engineered, but it should work well enough... It needs to be able to withstand a little over 5000 psi for the hydro test... Of course, I'm shooting for something that can survive 10,000 psi... The weak point will be the O-ring... I doubt that it would be able to survive it, but at least the metal isn't going to break... I picked it up today... He had called me earlier and said that it was going to be more difficult than he had originally thought from a timewise standpoint and would cost $75 and wanted to know if I wanted to continue with it... Since that is what it would have cost me at the other shop all the way down in New Orleans, I told him to go ahead... At least I didn't have to make two trips all the way into New Orleans just for that... I go over there to look at it and the chamfer on the 3/4"-14 neck wasn't quite right... It allowed the O-ring to still be visible instead of being completely enclosed... I had told him to make it look like the neck on the steel-72 and as I looked at one of the AL80s later that day at the hydro shop, I noticed that the neck design is different on the two types of cylinders... The steel-72 and steel 15 liter have a chamfer from the top of the neck to the threads of about a 45 degree angle... The AL80s have a flat area inset from the top of the neck... Too bad I didn't have one of my AL80s nearly empty -- I would have had him use that design instead... He cut a little deeper chamfer and then the steel-72 valve would no longer fit in there, so he had to rework the thread edge a bit and then it worked perfectly... The O-ring looks like it should be captured well enough... I took both of the 15 liter / 120 cu-ft tanks and the adapter over to the hydro shop and they'll hydro them on Monday... Turns out that they also do air fills there... They service all the local fire department SCBAs... Their air fills are around $5 and they do not require an inspection sticker on the tanks like a dive shop would... Interesting... I might just start using them for my air fills... I had originally told them to fill up the tanks, but I need to call them back and tell them not to... They'll have problems filling the tank with the damaged valve and I'm not sure whether I'll be able to find a modular replacement valve and subsequent isolation section or just need to go with a completely new isolation manifold with M25 threads... The machine shop I was at had a 40 ton hydraulic jack based system for installation of bearings and such... I have to wonder if perhaps it might be possible to put my damaged valve in there and by sqeezing down on the face of it, possibly straighten the dent enough to remove the DIN to yoke insert... If it worked right, I could just insert a new DIN to yoke insert and I might not need to replace the valve... Oh well... Just something to think about, I guess... > Ah. Still, why not just get a European valve? Hmmm... I thought I explained that... Perhaps not well enough.... I will be getting a replacement European valve, after the successful hydro and visual inspection... This adapter is NOT to allow me to use an American valve in it... It is strictly to be used for the hydro test of BOTH of the tanks... None of the hydro shops around here can support the European / metric threads... This adapter will get used twice every 5 years, that's it... You've seen SCUBA tank valves and neck threads before, so you know how simple it would be to make this thing... Hell, I suspect you could have it finished before we had even finished the first 6-pack... I told the machinist today that I'll try and think up something more challenging for him next time... He said that he might be able to have it for me tomorrow or Monday at the latest since he's working on a bid proposal for another project right now... Gotcha. Ask the Hydro guy, but maybe all you need is the 25mm 2.0 male and a 1/4 NPT female; be a lot cheaper to make. > Ask the Hydro guy, but maybe all you need is the > 25mm 2.0 male and a 1/4 NPT female; be a lot > cheaper to make. Perhaps, but if I ever use a different hydro shop, it might no longer be appropriate... More importantly, that design would be small enough that it would be easy to lose... <grin> If I was going that route, I could just get him to cut the valve head off the damage valve that I current have and tap a 1/4" NPT female thread into the end of it... The hydro shops have some sort of quick connect fitting from what I understand that allows them to switch between various adapters rather quickly... Each hydro machine has their own "standard" on this, so the most generic solution is to design something that I *know* everyone will be able to support... If the shop does SCUBA tanks, they will definitely support the 3/4"-14 NPS thread, so making it look like that is probably the best idea in my no so humble opinion... I'm not a machinist, but this is not rocket science either... It might not be an elegant solution, but it should be a robust one... Material cost is probably insignificant to labor costs and as long as I'm paying for labor, I want a big hunking chunk of metal out of the deal... >>Just in case my description still isn't making sense, here's a quick side >>profile drawing... I didn't draw the threads on it though since it's too >>much work in MS-PaintBrush... >>http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=scuba-tanks/converter.gif > > Ah. Still, why not just get a European valve? As I understood it, they want a thing to screw into the bottle to have it hydroed. Since it is the bottle that is tested, and not the valve, they use a special device to apply the water/pressure to the bottle, which has to be designed to meet the extra pressure of the hydro ( 1,5 x filling pressure) Matthias > Check what you have against this: > > ................. 3/4-14 NPSM ................. Are the specs different for 3/4-14 NPSF? That would be the part that he would need to machine so that it would simulate a normal SCUBA tank neck... Actually, that plus the slight inset that the O-ring fits into... >> What I'll >> probably do is get an adapter from the M25 thread to the standard 3/4" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Insanity. Why?? >Any adapter of the sort you propose would be absolutely not something I >would do for anyone, for any money, nor would I recommend it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I can send you real dimensions, but you will have to have access to a set of >mikes and three-wires. Do you operate a machine shop Scott?? err .. you mean four- wires don't you? (foreign threads) -- Steve Barlow > >> What I'll > >> probably do is get an adapter from the M25 thread to the standard 3/4" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Why?? Cross section and physical impossibility. 25mm = 0.984249" OD 3/4 NPSM max Major OD = 1.034" 1.034 - .984 = .05/2 = .025 wall thickness which isnt enough to hang two threads on. > Do you operate a machine shop Scott?? Yes. > err .. you mean four- wires don't you? (foreign threads) No, I mean three wires: http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PARTPG=NNLMK32&PMPXNO=1761017 >> On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:30:59 -0800, "Scott" <pugetsounddiver@geemail.com> >wrote: >> >> that it can be tightened by wrenches) brass or steel... >> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Cross section and physical impossibility. So a 4" long piece of 2" AF Hex can not have a 3/4 male on one end and a 25mm female on the other, each with a 1" thread length and joined by a 1/16th dia hole??? >> Do you operate a machine shop Scott?? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PARTPG=NNLMK32&PMPXNO=1761017 Please check:- http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/product.asp?sku=JIS+B+0271%3A2004 The sad fact is that, with a large enough spanner, either valve will fit into either tank. Admittedly requiring some force. -- Steve Barlow >> I am not sure where you might find a replacement valve in >> the US when Fedex comes through with a payment. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >their machine.. The places that I called today didn't know if they had the >adapter... Apparently, they just try various ones until one fits... -*-*-*- WARNNIG -*-*-*- The fact that a valve's threads "fit" into a tank DOES NOT mean that it is the correct thread. There ARE some combinations that "fit", but are not correct. They can be very dangerous. You need to know the specifications for both threads and they must match. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > -*-*-*- WARNNIG -*-*-*- > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You need to know the specifications for both threads and they must match. Apparently there is not so many different threads that they come by that there is a possibility of this happening... If it threads easily onto the cylinder, it's the right one... If it doesn't thread at all on there, it's the wrong one... Apparently, there is no "in between"... If they also handled metric tanks, this might be an issue... >> -*-*-*- WARNNIG -*-*-*- >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the wrong one... Apparently, there is no "in between"... If they also >handled metric tanks, this might be an issue... WRONG! There are various metric threads that are close enough to English threads to fit easily. You also have to conisder tapered vs straight threads -- although few if any current production cyllinders. use tapered threads, some old ones did. Now if you are saying they are tryig ONLY known, DIN treads in a known DIN tank, then you may be O.K. If that is the case, I miss-read the prior posting about just finding something that fits. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > WRONG! There are various metric threads that are close enough to > English threads to fit easily. You also have to conisder tapered > vs straight threads -- although few if any current production cyllinders. > use tapered threads, some old ones did. Agreed... The issue is what cylinders that they normally encounter from the fire extinguisher, CO2 beverage, welding and such industries... There is not that many choices on threads and they are all noticeably different... Different enough that they guys can look at the cylinder neck and know what adapter they will need for it... Since they apparently don't handle metric threads, it has not been an issue for them... > Now if you are saying they are tryig ONLY known, DIN treads > in a known DIN tank, then you may be O.K. If that is the case, > I miss-read the prior posting about just finding something that fits. Yeah, you misread it... Actually, it's American threads and tanks that they encounter nearly 100% of the time... I'm apparently the first metric threaded tank that they've ever had to deal with, so it's never been an issue of an adapter being able to fit multiple tanks... It shouldn't be that big of a deal once I get the adapter made up... I'll just convert from what I have to something that they can support (i.e. a standard SCUBA tank with 3/4"-14 NPS threads)... I've had to go to a few different machine shops to find one that could do it for me (without my having to drive all the way down into New Orleans twice to get it done), but it appears that I've found one that can create me one for around $50 or so... I'll post the exact figure once he has a chance to look over the source tank & valve and the destination tank neck threads that he is to duplicate... I'll use a steel-72 for the one for him to duplicate since they're the only tanks that I have that are nearly empty (they're down to 500 psi)... All my AL80s are full... I don't remember, but do the necks on the steel-72 look exactly like the ones on the AL80s? > Here's a photo of the damaged valve: > http://www.narcosis-republic.us/ShowFile.htm?arg=scuba-tanks/spiro-1-1.jpg [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > machining to create this sort of adapter out of a chunk of hexagonal (so > that it can be tightened by wrenches) brass or steel... You don't need to have a huge adapter made up for the hydro. I had to have a "spud" made up when I had some UDS-1 tanks hydroed quite a few years back and they just drilled the center with 1/4" pipe threads for the test fitting to go onto. Basically, it is a piece of stock, like you said, with an 0 ring surface and threads machined in. Then a hole drilled through the middle to affix the test fitting. The trick is finding a machinist that is proficient in metrics! Oh, and check with your hydro station as to what size hole they need for their fitting. It isn't going to be cheap. In 1981 it cost me $75 and I thought I was going to be stuck with a big chunk of brass as a souvenir. But the owner of the tanks bought it from me so he could get a hydro done just about anywhere in the US. Just my $.02 SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.rayzplace.com > You don't need to have a huge adapter made up for the hydro. > I had to have a "spud" made up when I had some UDS-1 tanks [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > metrics! Oh, and check with your hydro station as to what > size hole they need for their fitting. Yeah, that would be one option, but the problem with it is that every hydro station is different and I figured that if I create something that results in something that all of them support, I'll come out better in the long run... That way if I eventually switch to a different hydro station, I won't have to get a new adapter made up... I consider it a more generic solution to the problem in this particular case... > It isn't going to be cheap. In 1981 it cost me $75 and I > thought I was going to be stuck with a big chunk of brass as > a souvenir. But the owner of the tanks bought it from me so > he could get a hydro done just about anywhere in the US. Thanks Ray... I took the new tank and an old steel-72 over to the machist today and told him what he was going to need to do... He was wanting to do it with a piece of 6061 aluminum that he had that was in the right size and although I know it would be plenty strong (I'm shooting for at least 10,000 psi for it's working pressure), I prefer the smoothness of brass threads... If no brass, then stainless steel... I know that it doesn't need 10,000 psi for a working pressure, but anything worth engineering is worth overengineering... > Yeah, that would be one option, but the problem with it is that every hydro > station is different and I figured that if I create something that results > in something that all of them support, I'll come out better in the long > run... That way if I eventually switch to a different hydro station, I won't > have to get a new adapter made up... I consider it a more generic solution > to the problem in this particular case... Another consideration is that not every hydro station will even touch a cylinder that isn't marked with US approved markings. A hydro station cannot give the tank a DOT certification ... only a pressure test. Just $.02 more SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.rayzplace.com > Another consideration is that not every hydro station will > even touch a cylinder that isn't marked with US approved > markings. A hydro station cannot give the tank a DOT > certification ... only a pressure test. Correct, but the local shop will in fact do it, so I've got 5 more years to worry about whether the next shop will... > Thanks Ray... I took the new tank and an old steel-72 over to the machist > today and told him what he was going to need to do... He was wanting to do > it with a piece of 6061 aluminum That would be going to be an illegal assault weapon! Take care... Matthias > I am not sure where you might find a replacement valve in the US when > Fedex comes through with a payment. If you can't find it in the US, I have contacts in Europe. Lee > > I am not sure where you might find a replacement valve in the US when > > Fedex comes through with a payment. > > If you can't find it in the US, I have contacts in Europe. I bet you do... > If you can't find it in the US, I have contacts in Europe. Might need to order it from Europe... I discovered something interesting when I was looking at the valves today... Turns out that they are modular valves... Unfortunately, they're not left and right valves, but assuming that I can find a replacement for the bent one, I might also be able to find the isolation portion that connects the two valves and makes it into a full fledged isolation manifold... I looked over at the US Divers France website this evening... The have some strange looking valves over there... Kind of Z shaped... Not sure what the logic is behind that shape... "Matthias Voss" wote ... > Do you know how thick the coating is? Nope, but a angle grinder with a steel brush attachment does not take it off, it just polishes it up a bit... The tanks were originally manufactured / first hydro anywhere from 1970-1972... I had previously thought that I had one as early as 1969, but no such luck...Some of them had a bit of oxidation underneath the boot, but the angle grinder wire brush removed it... One of them had been coated in some sort of rubber / epoxy coating... It was quite messy to remove it with the angle grinder wire brush... >Subject: Re: European Tanks >From: "Grumman-581" >One thing I found >interesting about the boots was that they had a built-in roller on the >bottom edge of them... Underwater Kinetics used to make boots like that as I recall. Capt. Bill > Underwater Kinetics used to make boots like that as I recall. Interesting... These have "SPIRO" molded into them... They're an interesting concept, I guess... The axle probably needs to be lubed a bit since it doesn't roll that readily... Perhaps with the extra weight of the air fill, it might... On the other hand, it might make a good flower pot... <grin >> Underwater Kinetics used to make boots like that as I recall. > >Interesting... These have "SPIRO" molded into them... They're an interesting >concept, I guess... The axle probably needs to be lubed a bit since it >doesn't roll that readily... Perhaps with the extra weight of the air fill, >it might... On the other hand, it might make a good flower pot... <grin> Bit like fishy then -- Steve Barlow Happy New Year to you lot over there..early I know >Subject: Re: European Tanks >From: "Grumman-581" >On the other hand, it might make a good flower pot... <grin> That you could roll around as the sun moves. Capt. Bill > I recently noticed a French tank on eBay for sale... It's rated in bars and > probably doesn't have a DOT stamp -- probably whatever the European [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Would there be a problem with getting a current hydro, VIS, and air fills on > it over here? There is nothing at all wrong with those tanks. Except, that they can't legally be transported across any highways regulated by the DOT in the US. Additionally, no registered hydro station can legally give them a DOT hydro. Most dive shops are insured by companies that do not allow filling tanks that do not carry DOT certifications. It is possible, to send the cylinder to the original manufacturer and get it re-certified to DOT standards, but I have only heard of one guy in the last 20 years going to that trouble. That said, I know of several divers that have "foreign" tanks and just maintain and fill them at home. Just my $.02 SignatureRay Contreras =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Webmonkey for: http://www.ossystems.com http://www.bobs-garage.com http://www.rayzplace.com |
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