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Scuba Forum / General / December 2004

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Wierd accident

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Dillon Pyron - 15 Dec 2004 16:24 GMT
Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
deserve a break.

When we were in Cozumel, there was a guy who had a little accident.
It was one of his first open water dives since getting certified.
After settleing on the bottom, he aspirated a little water and
coughed.  End of story.  He finished the dive and did the second dive
of the day.

When the got back to the room, he started complaining of neck pain.
And his girlfreind noticed he was "swollen" in the neck, shoulders and
chest.  So, they called DAN.  After describing the symptoms, the first
question they asked was "Did you cough or sneeze"?  He said yes, so
off to the chamber/clinic they went.  Seems he had a subcutaneous
emphasima (sp?).  No more diving for 6-8 weeks.

First time I've seen a case, anybody with a tad more experience ever
see somebody get hit by this?

Signature

dillon

"When the French are against it, you know we can't
be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

nitespark - 15 Dec 2004 16:54 GMT
> Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
> deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> First time I've seen a case, anybody with a tad more experience ever
> see somebody get hit by this?

Never heard of it dive related.  However, subcutaneious emphysema is
bascially, "air under the skin".  It is usually associated with an
injury such as broken ribs or some sort of fracture that allows air from
the airway or lungs to escape from their usual flow paths and into
surrounding tissues.  The patient will often complain of a "crackling"
sensation under the skin.  Depending on the situation, this is also
associated with a pneumothorax which is extremely serious.
Randy Buckner - 15 Dec 2004 18:47 GMT
>> Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
>> deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> the skin.  Depending on the situation, this is also associated with a
> pneumothorax which is extremely serious.

This is also a rare complication from mechanical ventilation e.g. PEEP for
sleep apnea.
nitespark - 15 Dec 2004 19:47 GMT
>>>Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
>>>deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> This is also a rare complication from mechanical ventilation e.g. PEEP for
> sleep apnea.

My wife is a Respiratory Therapist, I will see what she can add to this.
Greg Mossman - 16 Dec 2004 02:08 GMT
> Never heard of it dive related.  However, subcutaneious emphysema is
> bascially, "air under the skin".  It is usually associated with an injury
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the skin.  Depending on the situation, this is also associated with a
> pneumothorax which is extremely serious.

I've had it, non-dive related.  The 'crackling', medically termed 'crepitus'
hurts like a SOB.  The sound is akin to crunching the little bubbles used
for packing material.  AFAIK, any coughing hard enough to rupture a bleb
(sort of a micro-herniation of lung tissue) is pretty hard coughing.  I
don't see how it could be caused by a little coughing while remaining
stationary on the bottom.  Usually when it happens diving, it's from
overexpansion on ascent, the air forcing itself out through whatever means
it can.

From DAN's website:

"The most common lung condition that predisposes an individual to pulmonary
barotrauma is balloon-like extensions of air sacs (known as blebs or
bullae). These sacs are believed to be caused by degradation of elastic
fibers in the lung due to inflammation. They are most frequently found in
smokers, but they can also occur in non-smokers. Because these sacs are
thin-walled, and during exhalation tend to empty their air slowly, pressure
can build up during ascent and they may rupture. Dive physicians recommend
specific testing for divers who have experienced pulmonary barotrauma before
they return to scuba diving. The evaluation may include a set of breathing
tests, a chest X-ray or computed tomography of the chest (CT or "CAT"
scan)."

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/article.asp?articleid=40
nitespark - 16 Dec 2004 10:55 GMT
>>Never heard of it dive related.  However, subcutaneious emphysema is
>>bascially, "air under the skin".  It is usually associated with an injury
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> overexpansion on ascent, the air forcing itself out through whatever means
> it can.

My wife is a respiratory therapist and I asked her about it last night.
 She could not comment on the scuba aspects of it since she does not
dive.  She did mention the bleb.  After talking with her and seeing some
of the other replies on the NG, I am wondering if it may have been an
unsafe ascent as you mentioned.  As I recall, the OP said the diver had
just been certified and was inexperienced.
bjeanneb - 15 Dec 2004 21:23 GMT
I've coughed and aspirated water but didn't get subcuraneous emphysema.
Guess it's like all other problems.  Some gets it and some don't.  Perhaps
there was a predisposition?  I'll follow this thread because there's no way
one can absolutely NEVER cough or sheeze underwater.

Jeanne

> > When we were in Cozumel, there was a guy who had a little accident.
> It was one of his first open water dives since getting certified.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> First time I've seen a case, anybody with a tad more experience ever
> see somebody get hit by this?
Karl Denninger - 15 Dec 2004 21:30 GMT
You would have to have some pathway for air to get out of where its supposed
to be and under the skin somewhere.

The usual mechanism is through an alevolar rupture, but it can also happen
through the sinus cavities.  The latter is often associated with coughing or
sneezing, especially if you try to "hold it."

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>I've coughed and aspirated water but didn't get subcuraneous emphysema.
>Guess it's like all other problems.  Some gets it and some don't.  Perhaps
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> First time I've seen a case, anybody with a tad more experience ever
>> see somebody get hit by this?
Matthias Voss - 15 Dec 2004 22:04 GMT
> You would have to have some pathway for air to get out of where its supposed
> to be and under the skin somewhere.
>
> The usual mechanism is through an alevolar rupture, but it can also happen
> through the sinus cavities.  The latter is often associated with coughing or
> sneezing, especially if you try to "hold it."

Or a excavated molar, which's excavation caused a rupture in the buccal
cavity?

Matthias
chilly - 16 Dec 2004 05:01 GMT
> I've coughed and aspirated water but didn't get subcuraneous emphysema.
> Guess it's like all other problems.  Some gets it and some don't.  Perhaps
> there was a predisposition?  I'll follow this thread because there's no way
> one can absolutely NEVER cough or sheeze underwater.

I've never sheezed underwater. ;^)

> Jeanne
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > First time I've seen a case, anybody with a tad more experience ever
> > see somebody get hit by this?
Dennis \(Icarus\) - 16 Dec 2004 02:08 GMT
> Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
> deserve a break.

I was going to flame you unmercifully due to your on-topic post taking away
from the guns & politics, but you nicely provided a means for the thread to
drift to guns by mentioning the NRA, so I decided to let it slide.

;-)

Dennis
Lee Bell - 16 Dec 2004 04:57 GMT
> Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
> deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> First time I've seen a case, anybody with a tad more experience ever
> see somebody get hit by this?

It's a first for me.  I can't count the number of times I've coughed or
sneezed underwater.  So far, so good.

Lee
nospam@all.please.net - 16 Dec 2004 05:44 GMT
> Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
> deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> First time I've seen a case, anybody with a tad more experience ever
> see somebody get hit by this?

I once had an uncontrollable coughing fit at about 80 feet; it was the
early signs of a bad a.s summer cold or flu.  Nothing came of it other
than the aforementioned illness.

I occasionally cough, sneeze, belch, fart, hiccup, gag, pop joints, &c
while at depth without problems (so far).
Dillon Pyron - 16 Dec 2004 20:10 GMT
>> Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
>> deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>I occasionally cough, sneeze, belch, fart, hiccup, gag, pop joints, &c
>while at depth without problems (so far).

Man, I had a bad case of bean burrito in Coz.  Coming out both ends.
Burp. Fart.  Burp.  Fart.  The burps sure tasted nasty, I'm glad I
didn't smell the farts.

Signature

dillon

"When the French are against it, you know we can't
be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

nitespark - 17 Dec 2004 02:08 GMT
>>>Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
>>>deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Burp. Fart.  Burp.  Fart.  The burps sure tasted nasty, I'm glad I
> didn't smell the farts.

How much weight did you end up dropping after all that?
Dillon Pyron - 17 Dec 2004 04:35 GMT
>>>>Yeah, I know, it's scuba related, but I think as an NRA lifer I
>>>>deserve a break.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>How much weight did you end up dropping after all that?

Needed more weight.  All the gas in the suit expanded as I a.s-ended.

Signature

dillon

"When the French are against it, you know we can't
be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

 
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