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Scuba Forum / General / December 2004Dive tables in class
Doesn't one of the agencies skip tables now, or make them optional? Popeye The only working atomic bomb platforms the Japanese ever had were delivered via airmail. SSI May be others as well. Lots of talk from the gear whores/pimps. > Doesn't one of the agencies skip tables now, or make them optional? > > Popeye > The only working atomic bomb platforms the > Japanese ever had were delivered via airmail. > SSI Really? They didn't skip the tables when I took the class 3 years ago or when I retook the class about a year ago. It's possible that they might leave it up to the instructor these days though. SDI has their students use computers exclusively. No tables at all. IMHO it is kind off like driving a car without having any idea of why the gas gauge does what it does. Bob, Briggs, Jon & Mike Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii >> SSI > > Really? They didn't skip the tables when I took the class 3 years ago or > when I retook the class about a year ago. It's possible that they might > leave it up to the instructor these days though. > SDI has their students use computers exclusively. No tables at all. IMHO it > is kind off like driving a car without having any idea of why the gas gauge > does what it does. Not to play devil's advocate, but how is this really different from most drivers on the road? > Bob, Briggs, Jon & Mike > Oahu Dive Center [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > when I retook the class about a year ago. It's possible that they might > > leave it up to the instructor these days though. > Not to play devil's advocate, but how is this really different from > most drivers on the road? True... Back a few months ago, I was helping this car of young black teenage girls one night whose car had stalled on a curve on a bridge overpass... It was blocking the road and was likely to cause an accident, so I grabbed my tow strap, hooked it onto their vehicle and towed them to the nearest gas station so that they could call someone from a relatively safe location... The car would start for a second and then die, so it sounded to me like it was out of gas... The driver insisted that she was not out of gas... I looked at the gauge and it was fairly close to 'E', so I suggested that she put some gas in it and give it a try... She kept insisting she was not out of gas even as a mother of one of the girls finally arrived... Finally I convinced them to put some gas in it, I tried to crank it again, and it started right up... The girl kept insisting that it was not her fault that she ran out of gas... I asked her who was driving... She said that she was... I asked her whose car was it... She said that it was hers... I asked her who normally puts gas in the car... She said that she did, but kept insisting that it wasn't her fault that she ran out of gas... I turned to the mother and remarked, "She's a blonde, isn't she?"... She laughed... I shook my head and left... So, probably not that much different than quite a few of the drivers currently on the road... >True... Back a few months ago, I was helping this car of young black teenage >girls one night whose car had stalled on a curve on a bridge overpass... .. >The car would start for a second and then die, so it sounded to me like it >was out of gas... The driver insisted that she was not out of gas... .. I recall a story about a woman who bough a new car and promptly ran our of gas -- several times. Seems that her old car would still go for 10-15 miles or so after the gauge went to "empty". Not so the new car -- more accurate gauge. >So, probably not that much different than quite a few of the drivers >currently on the road... ..and a lot of divers.  SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > SDI has their students use computers exclusively. No tables at all. IMHO it is kind > off like driving a car without having any idea of why the gas gauge does what it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oahu Dive Center > Kailua, Hawaii Firstly most people have little idea of how their car or gas gauge works and operate the car just fine. Secondly, although using tables is still a useful skill, it does not give any more understanding of physiology than using a computer. It's a mechanical empirical system so is a computer-- both give times-- the tables require more work and are more crude by assuming a square profile, but one can use either without understanding much in the way of physiology. Adam > Secondly, although using tables is still a useful skill, it does not give > any more understanding of physiology than using a computer. Nobody, to this point, mentioned the word physiology. It helps users understand the relationship of depth, time and nitrogen absorption, kind of fundamental stuff to anybody that progresses to the use of nitrox or beyond. > It's a mechanical empirical system so is a computer . . . Please describe the mechanical parts of your table. Please describe the mechanical parts of your computer. > the tables require more work and are more crude by assuming a square > profile . . . A classic example of why you should know more about tables. > but one can use either without understanding much in the way of > physiology. It's not the physiology that gets you killed the quickest, it's the physics. Lee >> Secondly, although using tables is still a useful skill, it does not give >> any more understanding of physiology than using a computer. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Lee Yer playing semantics, and I have to side with Helberg on this one. Learning the tables does not teach the relationship between depth/time/blahblah any more than learning to use a quill pen teaches the english language. I agree 100% that the physics and physiology should be understood, but whether ya compute yer profile longhand, use the tables, or use a computer is as irrelevant as whether ya use a quill, a pencil, a Remington, a Selectric, or Word to write yer sonnets. Although both Word and a dive computer will mask, to some degree, yer ignorance of the subject at hand. > >> Secondly, although using tables is still a useful skill, it does not give > >> any more understanding of physiology than using a computer. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > computer is as irrelevant as whether ya use a quill, a pencil, a > Remington, a Selectric, or Word to write yer sonnets. A minimum knowledge of basic physiology and physics will help having an intuitive understanding of the phenomenons involved. On the other hand, for people who do not have such knowledge first hand, how much do you really need to learn in order to dive safely? To me, decompression theory is much better illustrated by: 1 - Open coke bottle 2 - Shake coke bottle and open 3 - Clean yourself, shake coke bottle and open very, very, slowly than by looking at some tables. And just looking at bubbles inflating as they move to the surface nicely illustrates why holding your breath when ascending is a bad idea. But I do not think that getting some results out of a "black box" (i.e. without looking at the equations themselves, and understanding what they represent) gives you a real understanding, and whether you get the results via an abacus (tables) or via a computer will not make much difference. If one really wants to play with numbers, running simulations of various profiles on a computer, for instance showing how a deep --> shallow profile is more advisable than the reverse, would be more instructive than learning how to plan successive dives using tables. But in my (limited) experience, having an intuitive understanding of the phenomenon, a good computer and a buddy should be enough for "basic" recreational diving. Cheers, Froggy > A minimum knowledge of basic physiology and physics will help having > an intuitive understanding of the phenomenons involved. > > On the other hand, for people who do not have such knowledge first > hand, how much do you really need to learn in order to dive safely? Problem is, "safely" isn't a fixed point. Armed with knowledge that holding one's breath while ascending and a modern computer, somebody who stays relatively shallow needs no further information to dive safely. Do what the computer says and you're fine. Dive deep enough to add decompression to the mix and you'd better know a bit more , preferably in advance of the need. Things like how long it takes to get from the bottom to the surface and how much gas is required to make the trip become kind of important. > If one really wants to play with numbers, running simulations of > various profiles on a computer, for instance showing how a deep --> > shallow profile is more advisable than the reverse, would be more > instructive than learning how to plan successive dives using tables. Your statement presumes that computer can do simulations. Of the 5 dive computers I own, none can. Lee > > A minimum knowledge of basic physiology and physics will help having > > an intuitive understanding of the phenomenons involved. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > relatively shallow needs no further information to dive safely. Do what the > computer says and you're fine. My computer has never once even hinted, that I shouldn't hold my breath. > Dive deep enough to add decompression to the > mix and you'd better know a bit more , preferably in advance of the need. > Things like how long it takes to get from the bottom to the surface and how > much gas is required to make the trip become kind of important. Hmm, maybe if I held my breath, I'd have enough air to make it . . . (wg) > > If one really wants to play with numbers, running simulations of > > various profiles on a computer, for instance showing how a deep --> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your statement presumes that computer can do simulations. Of the 5 dive > computers I own, none can. eh? I'm pretty sure that mine can, but I never use that feature. > Lee >> Problem is, "safely" isn't a fixed point. Armed with knowledge that > > holding one's breath while ascending and a modern computer, somebody who > > stays >> relatively shallow needs no further information to dive safely. Do what >> the computer says and you're fine. > My computer has never once even hinted, that I shouldn't hold my breath. Typing in your sleep again? That's precisely the reason I said Armed with the knwledge AND a modern computer. > Hmm, maybe if I held my breath, I'd have enough air to make it . . . Maybe. >> Your statement presumes that computer can do simulations. Of the 5 dive >> computers I own, none can. > > eh? I'm pretty sure that mine can, but I never use that feature. As it happens, Oceanic offered a desk/notebook computer simulator for their one button nitrox computer. I can, and do, run simulations that way. It dosn't do me a lot of good when the plan changes on somebody else's boat, but it's handy when I'm home or on my own boat. Lee > As it happens, Oceanic offered a desk/notebook computer simulator for their > one button nitrox computer. I can, and do, run simulations that way. It > dosn't do me a lot of good when the plan changes on somebody else's boat, > but it's handy when I'm home or on my own boat. Does it simulate you not pressing the button and defaulting to 80% O2 and N2? <snicker >> As it happens, Oceanic offered a desk/notebook computer simulator for > their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Does it simulate you not pressing the button and defaulting to 80% O2 and > N2? <snicker> Yes, as a matter of fact, it does. The only thing it doesn't simulate is that you have to release the button one step before the O2 percentage you want with the real computer. With the real computer, you have to let the button go when it reads 31 to get 32. With the simulator, you let it go/unclick when it hits 32. Lee > >> Problem is, "safely" isn't a fixed point. Armed with knowledge that > > > holding one's breath while ascending and a modern computer, somebody who [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Typing in your sleep again? Pretty much or at least when I'd prefer to be sleeping. >That's precisely the reason I said Armed with > the knwledge AND a modern computer. Yes, you did. I believe it was the other poster that first started tickling my funny bone with the "holding one's breath" bit. > > Hmm, maybe if I held my breath, I'd have enough air to make it . . . > > Maybe. ;^) > >> Your statement presumes that computer can do simulations. Of the 5 dive > >> computers I own, none can. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dosn't do me a lot of good when the plan changes on somebody else's boat, > but it's handy when I'm home or on my own boat. True enough. Still I'm pretty sure that mine has a dive simulator built right into it. Of course, I don't have two . . .um, yet. > > A minimum knowledge of basic physiology and physics will help having > > an intuitive understanding of the phenomenons involved. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > one's breath while ascending and a modern computer, somebody who stays > relatively shallow needs no further information to dive safely. That's the type of diving I had in mind. For something like a PADI OW/AOW certification I believe that time would be better spent explaining/rehearsing emergency procedures rather than explaing/rehearsing the use of tables. > Do what the > computer says and you're fine. Dive deep enough to add decompression to the > mix and you'd better know a bit more , preferably in advance of the need. > Things like how long it takes to get from the bottom to the surface and how > much gas is required to make the trip become kind of important. OK, but that's already beyond what many recreational divers will actually do. It could be covered in the training/certification related to this type of diving. > > If one really wants to play with numbers, running simulations of > > various profiles on a computer, for instance showing how a deep --> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your statement presumes that computer can do simulations. Of the 5 dive > computers I own, none can. I meant a PC, not a dive computer. Cheers, Froggy > On the other hand, for people who do not have such knowledge first > hand, how much do you really need to learn in order to dive safely? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > nicely illustrates why holding your breath when ascending is a bad > idea. "holding your breath"? Um, I don't believe that is the point the exercise is trying to demonstrate. (snip) > > mike gray <scrubadub@att.net> wrote in message > news:<sR%qd.75063$7i4.29570@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Um, I don't believe that is the point the exercise is trying to demonstrate. There are two "exercises" illustrating two (bad) things: 1 - Decompression and offgassing, i.e. would you like this to happen in your body. 2 - Expansion of air when ascending, i.e. understand that your lungs may physically explode. Cheers, Froggy > Yer playing semantics, and I have to side with Helberg on this one. Some, but not entirely. > Learning the tables does not teach the relationship between > depth/time/blahblah any more than learning to use a quill pen teaches the > english language. A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper grammer. Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive dive groups impresses the relationships better than simply reading a single number from a display. To use a table, you have to think about each number in relation to other elements of the equation and you have little or no choice but to consider, at least on a subcouscios level, the numbers on either side of the one you're focused on. When you plan a repetitive dive, you are forced to consider the impact of the previous dive by the very act of including residual nitrogen time. With a computer, you read one number from one depth and you're done, no matter how many dives are in the series. I truly believe that learning the tables and using tables is a better tool for learning the physics and at least considering the physiological factors that relate to them than learning to dive with a computer. I dive with a computer, but when my intent is to refresh my memory about the effects of depths, different gas and other fundamental aspects of the sport, I return to some form of tables every time. Perhaps it's a function of my computer, which only gives me right-now information on what it thinks about the next dive. Mine does not have a planning function. It can't tell me to take it easy on this dive so that I'll have time to do the next one or even how much longer I'll have to sit before I can spend the time I want on the next dive. Tables can. Personally, and I think the same is probably true for you, I can make pretty good estimates of such things not because I have a computer, but because I used the tables enough, to learn the skills well enough, that I no longer need the tables to get it close enough. END, EAD and planning a mix (nitrox or otherwise) for a dive or series of dives, all relate back to tables, not to my dive computer. > I agree 100% that the physics and physiology should be understood, but > whether ya compute yer profile longhand, use the tables, or use a computer > is as irrelevant as whether ya use a quill, a pencil, a Remington, a > Selectric, or Word to write yer sonnets. The computer displays a single letter at a time. Tables are the sonnet as a whole. I don't see a reason to settle for being a typist when you can be a writer. Lee >I truly believe that learning the tables and using tables is a better tool >for learning the physics and at least considering the physiological factors >that relate to them than learning to dive with a computer. >enough, that I no longer need the tables to get it close enough. I truly believe that learing a command line interface is a better tool for learning how to use a computer... I truly believe that learning HTML syntax is a better tool for learing how to create web pages... .."better", that is, tha relying on what some GUI writer decides to provide for you. (GUI = Graphical User Interface) I truly believe that my truly believed beliefs haven't an ice cubes chance in hell of being widely accepted. I've adopted a Buhdist attitude -- I try to rid myself of the desire to see this happen. [Well, I've TRIED! I just haven't had too much success yet. My suffering continues.] SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > I've adopted a Buhdist attitude -- I try to rid myself of the desire > to see this happen. [Well, I've TRIED! I just haven't had too much > success yet. My suffering continues.] Sheeit! I knew this would turn into a religious thread. > Sheeit! I knew this would turn into a religious thread. Nawh... If we had started discussing what constitutes TRUE BBQ, *then* it would have been a religious thread... Of course, Texans are the supreme authority in this religion... Everyone else are just the unwashed masses... > > Sheeit! I knew this would turn into a religious thread. > > Nawh... If we had started discussing what constitutes TRUE BBQ, *then* it > would have been a religious thread... Of course, Texans are the supreme > authority in this religion... Everyone else are just the unwashed masses... In your dreams :-) > In your dreams :-) Awh, come one... Like what the f.ck does San Diego know about BBQ? The California wildfires do not count... BBQed tofu burgers, perhaps... Mexican food, maybe, but not true Tex-Mex... I'm over in the New Orleans area these days... Crappy BBQ and rather difficult to find a Mexican restaurant, much less a *good* one... Then again, it's difficult to find good etouffee in Texas... As far as gumbo goes, I can make my own that I like better than any I've tasted in the restaurants... > > In your dreams :-) > > Awh, come one... Like what the f.ck does San Diego know about BBQ? San Diego knows absolutely nothing about BBQ. The big hit here, (overly hyped by an ex-Texas radioman who says he used to raise cattle, and therefore knows real BBQ when he sees it), is a place called Phil's. Some locals seem to like their ribs, which are baked in an oven with some smoke piped in, dunked in a KC style sauce, then finished on a gas grill. On the other hand, I grew up in LA and Denver. Believe it or not, Los Angeles has some exceptional barbecue joints, if you're willing to venture into South Central or Van Nuys to try it. I lived around the block from one for about three years, and still eat there every time I go back to LA to visit family. I don't recall much good barbecue in Denver, but at least we had good beef. I wasn't all that impressed with Sonny Bryan's in Dallas. You might be suprised to learn how much pork is barbecued in East Texas. You might also be suprised to learn how much of your barbecue heritage comes from German and Mexican immigrants. The > California wildfires do not count... BBQed tofu burgers, perhaps... Mexican > food, maybe, but not true Tex-Mex... You say "Tex-Mex" like it's a good thing, instead of the bastardized border fare epitomized by Taco Bell and Chili's :-) > I'm over in the New Orleans area these days... Crappy BBQ and rather > difficult to find a Mexican restaurant, much less a *good* one... Then > again, it's difficult to find good etouffee in Texas... As far as gumbo > goes, I can make my own that I like better than any I've tasted in the > restaurants... I've only been in New Orleans once in my life, and unfortunately I remember more about what I drank than what I ate. I did manage to make it to K-Paul's once, and remember eating a ton of Gulf Oysters (you could get a dozen for the price of one or two here). One of these days I need to get back there and do the proper culinary tour thing. > The big hit here, (overly hyped by an ex-Texas radioman who > says he used to raise cattle, and therefore knows real BBQ when > he sees it), is a place called Phil's. Some locals seem to like their > ribs, which are baked in an oven with some smoke piped in, > dunked in a KC style sauce, then finished on a gas grill. Damn... No wonder they ran him out of Texas... > You might be suprised to learn how much pork is barbecued in East > Texas. Well, that's just because pigs are more likely to become roadkill than cows... > You say "Tex-Mex" like it's a good thing, instead of the bastardized > border fare epitomized by Taco Bell and Chili's :-) Actually, the only Mexican foods that I ever eat as restaurants are usually shredded beef chimichangas and fajitas... And hot sauce and chips... Musn't forget the munchies... <grin> > I've only been in New Orleans once in my life, and unfortunately I > remember more about what I drank than what I ate. Then you didn't drink enough... If you had drank enough, you wouldn't have remembered even that... <grin> > One of these days I need to get back there and do the proper > culinary tour thing. Give me a shout if you get this way... Can't suggest much in the way of restaurants, but we can grab some beers and I'll show you why we don't dive in Lake Pontchartrain that much... HINT -- Braile SPG... <grin <snip> > Actually, the only Mexican foods that I ever eat as restaurants are usually > shredded beef chimichangas and fajitas... And hot sauce and chips... Musn't > forget the munchies... <grin> The first dish I order in any Mexican food restauant is the chili rellenos. If they're good, I can be relatively certain that everything else will be good (I have found a few exceptions). If they don't serve rellenos, it doesn't count as a real Mexican food restaurant. > Give me a shout if you get this way... Can't suggest much in the way of > restaurants, but we can grab some beers and I'll show you why we don't dive > in Lake Pontchartrain that much... HINT -- Braile SPG... <grin> And that's why you need a J-valve. Damn, I must remember to learn all those culinary vocabulary... Matthias <snip> > The > ? California wildfires do not count... BBQed tofu burgers, perhaps... Mexican > ? food, maybe, but not true Tex-Mex... > ? > > You say "Tex-Mex" like it's a good thing, instead of the bastardized > border fare epitomized by Taco Bell and Chili's :-) True Tex-Mex is a good thing. Taco Bell and Chili's don't count. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > True Tex-Mex is a good thing. Taco Bell and Chili's don't count. Taco Bell is Californian Signature""War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse." John Stewart Mill I strongly urge everyone reading this to check out WWW.anysoldier.us, and support our troops with a letter, a package or a donation. > You say "Tex-Mex" like it's a good thing, instead of the bastardized > border fare epitomized by Taco Bell and Chili's :-) It is a good thing, but it's not what they sell in Taco Bell or Chili's. Lee in message news:KP8rd.932$eU2.458@fe05.lga... >> Sheeit! I knew this would turn into a religious thread. > > Nawh... If we had started discussing what constitutes TRUE BBQ, *then* it > would have been a religious thread... Of course, Texans are the supreme > authority in this religion... Everyone else are just the unwashed > masses... Any fool can burn beef. > in message news:KP8rd.932$eU2.458@fe05.lga... > >> Sheeit! I knew this would turn into a religious thread. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Any fool can burn beef. No doubt, but only a fool would burn beef. > Any fool can burn beef. Are you implying that pork is burn-proof? >> Any fool can burn beef. > > Are you implying that pork is burn-proof? Nah, just that it takes a special kind of fool to burn pork. Actually, a really cheap pork roast, the more fat the better, in a slow cooker with a bottle of mustard based BBQ sauce turns into a damn good sandwich filler after 8 to 10 hours. I don't know why, but tomato based BBQ sauce dries the meat out. It's not nearly as good. Texas is the only place I can recall going where they served me sliced ham with BBQ sauce on it. Lee > Texas is the only place I can recall going where they served me sliced ham > with BBQ sauce on it. Only for breakfast... >> Texas is the only place I can recall going where they served me sliced >> ham >> with BBQ sauce on it. > > Only for breakfast... Dinner >> Sheeit! I knew this would turn into a religious thread. >... Of course, Texans are the supreme >authority in this religion... Everyone else are just the unwashed masses... SNORT! <cough> Rick Simms ******************************** There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable and praiseworthy! > A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper grammer. > Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive dive groups [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > residual nitrogen time. With a computer, you read one number from one depth > and you're done, no matter how many dives are in the series. Using tables will teach nothing. It is a mindless exercise in following the line across, down, and over to the other side. There is no intuitive relation between that exercise and the relation between time and depth, and I've never seen a table that made me think about anything other than the sequence of tracking through the table. It could be a pasta recipe. Any monkey can be taught to use tables to multiply 3 X 4, ya only have to find the numbers and follow a straight line. An adding machine or a computer is even simpler. Understanding what it is yer doing is entirely seperate from learning to use the tools that do the calculation for you. > The computer displays a single letter at a time. Tables are the sonnet as a > whole. I don't see a reason to settle for being a typist when you can be a > writer. No. Tables are just the alphabet. The computer selects the appropriate letter for the instant. Time saving, but neither instructive nor any closer to understanding what's going on. > Using tables will teach nothing. It is a mindless exercise in following > the line across, down, and over to the other side. There is no intuitive > relation between that exercise and the relation between time and depth, > and I've never seen a table that made me think about anything other than > the sequence of tracking through the table. It could be a pasta recipe. I've not known you to be mindless in doing anything . . . ever. I didn't mention intuitive. I don't believe you've never seen a table that made you think. We've had way, way too many discussions on the origin of tables and the associated theory for you to now claim they did not provoke thought. > Any monkey can be taught to use tables to multiply 3 X 4, ya only have to > find the numbers and follow a straight line. An adding machine or a > computer is even simpler. Understanding what it is yer doing is entirely > seperate from learning to use the tools that do the calculation for you. The same monkey does not need to be taught to see a number and react in a predetermined manner. Actually, a monkey's probably too smart for this one. Dogs, chickens and even fleas have been taught stimulus response. > No. Tables are just the alphabet. OK, tables are the alphabet. The computer is still a single letter. Lee >> A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper >> grammer. Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > and I've never seen a table that made me think about anything other than > the sequence of tracking through the table. It could be a pasta recipe. Nope. Anyone with an imagefriendly mind can get a graphic illusion of what the decompression curve is all about. And once you have learnt that all curves of proper decompression schemes look alike in terms of affinity, or even congruence once you adapt only the time/depth scales, you have extracted the most of it you can get. For numeric challenged ones, you can as well make up your own "milk maid" algorithm by using a fibonacci sequence par coeur, or with the help of wetnotes. Matthias > Nope. > Anyone with an imagefriendly mind can get a graphic illusion of what the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > maid" algorithm by using a fibonacci sequence par coeur, or with the > help of wetnotes. Or . . .you could just remember not to hold yer breath. (wg) >>> A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper >>> grammer. Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > maid" algorithm by using a fibonacci sequence par coeur, or with the > help of wetnotes. I didn't understand a single word of that. >>>> A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper >>>> grammer. Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I didn't understand a single word of that. Sorry... Bit by bit: Decompression curve: Time/depth coordinates during ascent. Fibonacci sequence : 0,1,3,4,7,11,18,29, and so on. look alike: Take a decompression graph from EKKP, Doux de Coly, (90m,11 hours) and one from a dive 72m, 70 minutes, for instance. Modify ther scales so that the curves overlap. Say that I am right. Matthias >>>>> A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper >>>>> grammer. Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Matthias I didn't understand a single word of that. So ya must be right. >>>>>> A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper >>>>>> grammer. Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > So ya must be right. ;-) You know the old 90-rule? NDT = 90-2t ( in meters/minutes That's a decompression graph to begin with. The Fiboacci numbers are minutes, and attached to your 3m level stops, starting with the low numbers coming from depth. Matthias > >>>> A better analogy might be how reading a book can teaches proper > >>>> grammer. Seeing, using and working with time, depth and repetitive [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Sorry... > Bit by bit: more byte by byte... > Decompression curve: > Time/depth coordinates during ascent. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Matthias Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? >Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? If either of you goes to the meeting, give a brief overview of what happens if you get time. > >Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? > > If either of you goes to the meeting, give a brief overview of what > happens if you get time. If either of them doesn't go, I'll have to get out my big stick. >>Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? > > If either of you goes to the meeting, give a brief overview of what > happens if you get time. I'll be there. Report to follow. >>>Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? >> >> If either of you goes to the meeting, give a brief overview of what >> happens if you get time. > >I'll be there. Report to follow. 'preciate it! > Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? I hadn't planned on it, but maybe I should. Do you have details handy? I may be in Miami anyway and harassing a bunch of control freaks is a much better way to spend my time than actually working. Lee > > Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? > > I hadn't planned on it, but maybe I should. Do you have details handy? I > may be in Miami anyway and harassing a bunch of control freaks is a much > better way to spend my time than actually working. Sigh. I feel better now. I hope you go Lee. >> Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lee It's today (Wed, 12/1) at the Intercontinental Hotel, 3:00 - 5:00. Sustainable Diving & Snorkeling Practices Workshop. A great chance to hear the Army Corps of Engineers and the municipal wastewater agencies explain why divers should be limited on their reefs. >>> Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami >>> tomorrow? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the Army Corps of Engineers and the municipal wastewater agencies explain > why divers should be limited on their reefs. Ah, that meeting. Glad you're attending. I can't. Ask them about sustainable raw sewerage dumping in Biscayne Bay while you're there. Lee >> It's today (Wed, 12/1) at the Intercontinental Hotel, 3:00 - 5:00. >> Sustainable Diving & Snorkeling Practices Workshop. A great chance to hear [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Ask them about sustainable raw sewerage dumping in Biscayne Bay while you're > there. If ya keep the divers out of the water, it's not a problem. That seems to be the goal. >Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? Who said it was a "how to license Divers" seminar? That was almost a year ago, and the follow meeting up was a couple of week ago. The tax idea was dropped and nothing more was said.. The one you are referring to *is* being hosted by SEFCRI/SEFAST, but as far as I know it has nothing to do with licensing divers. AFAIK it is just one of the action items developed at the last meeting (October 2004)... Specifically, Objective 5 of Issue 2 / Project 6: <quote> Hold three PADI Project Aware 'Coral Reefs in Sustainable Tourism - Protecting Your Business by Protecting the Coral Reef' seminars to dive operators in Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach and Martin Counties. </quote> You're evidently attending the one in Miami-Dade. It sounds very boring. safe diving, bullshark safe diving, bullshark >>Hey, you going to that "How to license divers" seminar in Miami tomorrow? > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > bullshark Actually, it was pretty interesting. But yer right, user fees was only mentioned three times, and rather apologetically. Special licensing came up a couple times but didn't float. Details when I have time to abstract my notes. >Details when I have time to abstract my notes. I'll attend the one in Broward when they have it. I'm not worried about the fees thing. SEFCRI/SEFAST is completely impotent. Action is anathema to their existance. safe diving, bullshark >>Details when I have time to abstract my notes. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Action is anathema to their existance. > safe diving, Not so sure about that. Pres George has made a bunch of money available and the feeding frenzy has started. Looks like his second term will be even more generous to marine research and demonstration projects. The feds are begging for folks to submit proposals so they don't have to give it back to the Dems. The hot button now is to get the dive operators to buy into "good management practices". Wanna share a grant to teach dive boats how to give briefings? We've got 'til late January to get Broward and PB counties. > give it back to the Dems. The hot button now is to get the dive > operators to buy into "good management practices". > > Wanna share a grant to teach dive boats how to give briefings? We've got > 'til late January to get Broward and PB counties. :^) >> give it back to the Dems. The hot button now is to get the dive >> operators to buy into "good management practices". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >:^) ...he's not kidding. safe diving, bullshark > >> give it back to the Dems. The hot button now is to get the dive > >> operators to buy into "good management practices". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ...he's not kidding. I didn't think he was. Hence the smilie. >> Action is anathema to their existance. >Not so sure about that. Pres George has made a bunch of money available >and the feeding frenzy has started. Precisely. If they take action, they won't be able to just ify their studies. Study everything. Acknowledge nothing. Do Nothing that might blemish the study. The purpose of a study is to justify a budget for more study. But I like your idea. We could develop a dive briefing in 10 minutes that's 10x better than whats out there or likely to come from SEFCRI/SEFAST. Imagine what we could do if we spent a whole hour on it? We can tour the whole gol-danged state, teaching how to brief, then demand free diving to ensure that the instructions were understood and carried out. safe diving, bullshark > But I like your idea. We could develop a dive briefing in 10 minutes > that's 10x better than [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > understood and > carried out. You're thinking too small: 1. It's a grant. We have to do something grandiose. We don't have to have grandiose results, but we have to appear to spend a lot of time and money. Let us not forget that the group that started this discussion spend a $2 million grant just to come up with questions they thought should be answered. 2. Results must include a training and certification program . . . at a reasonable cost of, say, $500 per student. The course comes with a certification which, you guessed it, is required to give dive briefings. 3. Finally, you need a requirement, preferably an industry requirement since they don't actually have to do anything meaningful, that a certified dive briefing be given for each dive done in a certified body of water, from a certified dive boat, shore line or anywhere, when or place I've forgotten. Did I mention there's a royalty fee involved? 4. It will help if we have a catchy bunch of letters, like GUE or PADI. We don't want to use either of those because we know, in advance, that they're even more money hungry than we are and would cut us out of the benefits of our ideas in short order. Mike, you want to do it, I'm up for a partnership interest including my share of any expenses. I insist on being a general partner so that I can ensure that you don't rake me over the financial coals the way we plan to rake the government and everybody else over them. Anybody interested in a limited partnership interest? Lee PS: Mike, you should have copyrighted this idea. I'll do it for you. All concepts, ideas, thoughts or other items related to the concept of certified dive briefings, or anything we forgot to mention relating to anything we forgot to mention, are hereby copyrighted. All rights, particularly financial ones, are hereby reserved. See how easy theft can be? > Mike, you want to do it, I'm up for a partnership interest including my > share of any expenses. I insist on being a general partner so that I can > ensure that you don't rake me over the financial coals the way we plan to > rake the government and everybody else over them. There's an old saying. "Be careful what you wish for . . ." >> Mike, you want to do it, I'm up for a partnership interest including my >> share of any expenses. I insist on being a general partner so that I can >> ensure that you don't rake me over the financial coals the way we plan to >> rake the government and everybody else over them. > > There's an old saying. "Be careful what you wish for . . ." You can't scare me that easily. I'm retirement age. It doesn't take much of a supplement to my income to free me for any time of day or night diving/briefings. Lee > Anybody interested in a limited partnership interest? I'm not sure how half facetious you guys are being, but in all seriousness, you could probably write yourself a $200K grant proposal quite easily, and submit it to several federal agencies. Grant writing isn't hard, but the people that write them like to make it look that way to protect their racket. Create a non-profit, and start sending out proposals. The worst that could happen is you spend a few bucks on paperwork. At best, they send you a check and you can quit your job. > But I like your idea. We could develop a dive briefing in 10 minutes that's 10x better than > whats out there or likely to come from SEFCRI/SEFAST. Imagine what we could do if > we spent a whole hour on it? We can tour the whole gol-danged state, teaching how to > brief, then demand free diving to ensure that the instructions were understood and > carried out. That's exactly what Blue Star is doing in Monroe, with NOAA funding. I'm in contact with the gal in charge. PB? Broward? >> But I like your idea. We could develop a dive briefing in 10 minutes >> that's 10x better than >> whats out there or likely to come from SEFCRI/SEFAST. One time I'm gonna shoot you all because unsollicited use of abbreviations ;-) Or do I have to read it backwards to get the hidden meaning? Matthias >>> whats out there or likely to come from SEFCRI/SEFAST. > >One time I'm gonna shoot you all because unsollicited use of >abbreviations ;-) SouthEast Florida Coral Reef Initiative is to coral reefs what Bush's "clear Skies initiative" is to coal pollution/mercury. SouthEast Florida Action Strategy Team is to "action" as Lung cancer is to lungs. safe diving, bullshark > >>> whats out there or likely to come from SEFCRI/SEFAST. > >One time I'm gonna shoot you all because unsollicited use of > >abbreviations ;-) You will shoot no one, you vote to disarm and be disarmed. We have guns, you dont. :-) > SouthEast Florida Coral Reef Initiative is to coral reefs what Bush's "clear Skies initiative" is to coal pollution/mercury. Come on; he has to cater to all those Unions that supported Kerry. > SouthEast Florida Action Strategy Team is to "action" as Lung cancer is to lungs. So why don't you girls quit bitching and do something real? You know, like get off your lumps, stop throwing the Monday morning "first ball" and do something other than bitch to us about your back yard. It's your baby, fix it. Soon as you start, you will have support, not before. >So why don't you girls quit bitching and do something real? You mean like this? http://www.reef-rescue.org >You know, like get off your lumps, stop throwing the Monday morning "first >ball" and do something other than bitch to us about your back yard. I wasn't bitching about the back yard, I was bitching about the do-nothing-grantaholic-pretenders. safe diving, bullshark > SouthEast Florida Coral Reef Initiative is to coral reefs what Bush's "clear Skies initiative" is to coal pollution/mercury. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > bullshark Thanks! Matthias (snip the usual eloquent and excellent posts) As for understanding the tables and using a computer . . . well, what does a person do when on a 3 week dive vacation and their computer craps out? (you guys with the spare, never mind) > As for understanding the tables and using a computer . . . well, what > does > a person do when on a 3 week dive vacation and their computer craps out? > (you guys with the spare, never mind) Buy another. Oops, sorry, I have a spare. Lee > > As for understanding the tables and using a computer . . . well, what > > does > > a person do when on a 3 week dive vacation and their computer craps out? > > (you guys with the spare, never mind) > > Buy another. Oops, sorry, I have a spare. ;^) Did you buy two right from the get go? >> > As for understanding the tables and using a computer . . . well, what >> > does [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Did you buy two right from the get go? It's been a long time, but I don't think so. One is in a console and the other is in a wrist mount. I didn't get them at the same time, but there wasn't a long time between the purchases either. It was some time in my DIR wanna-be period. I suspect I bought the wrist mount to be closer to DIR (yes, I know they don't use computers, but I didn't want to be all the way, DIR, just DIR-L). I almost certainly bought the console mount because I like them better than wrist mount computers. Lee >From: "chilly" slarson@shaw.canada >Date: 12/1/2004 1:50 AM Eastern Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >(you guys with the spare, never mind) If you can afford a 3 week dive vacation, you can afford a second computer. Popeye The only working atomic bomb platforms the Japanese ever had were delivered via airmail. > >From: "chilly" slarson@shaw.canada > >Date: 12/1/2004 1:50 AM Eastern Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > If you can afford a 3 week dive vacation, you can afford a second computer. True enough and before I leave on this upcoming trip, I'll have another. But I didn't have the extra, the first time my computer crapped out on me. I'd just purchased it before the trip a few years back and in the middle of the trip .. . In any event, the manufacturer sent me a new one and I've had no problems with it since. But since I didn't realize that the right thing to do at the time was to purchase a nitrox computer, I shall be remedying that. Which will be nice for Lee, next time I'm down that way. > In any event, the manufacturer sent me a new one and I've had no problems > with it since. But since I didn't realize that the right thing to do at > the > time was to purchase a nitrox computer, I shall be remedying that. > > Which will be nice for Lee, next time I'm down that way. 8^) > As for understanding the tables and using a computer . . . well, > what does a person do when on a 3 week dive vacation and their > computer craps out? Either learn to use the tables or just do a single dive each day with an AL80 or steel-72... Unless they've got really good gas consumption, it's somewhat difficult to get into a deco obligation on just a single tank dive each day as long as they are not diving deep... On the other hand, isn't that what the "save-a-dive" box is supposed to be about? <grin > (snip the usual eloquent and excellent posts) > > As for understanding the tables and using a computer . . . well, what does > a person do when on a 3 week dive vacation and their computer craps out? Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts. >> (snip the usual eloquent and excellent posts) >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts. Worked for me. Lee > > Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts. > > Worked for me. Yeah, but tendonitis from drinking beer doesn't count... >> > Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts. >> >> Worked for me. > > Yeah, but tendonitis from drinking beer doesn't count... Comes from breathing air marked as 32% and setting a computer according to the label. Tables would never have made this mistake. Lee >>> > Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts. >>> >>> Worked for me. BTDT. >> Yeah, but tendonitis from drinking beer doesn't count... > > Comes from breathing air marked as 32% and setting a computer according to > the label. > Tables would never have made this mistake. Wouldn't you have used a 32% table (or EAD)? > Wouldn't you have used a 32% table (or EAD)? Ahhh, but he said it was 32% air... One has to wonder what the other 68% was... <grin >> Comes from breathing air marked as 32% and setting a computer according >> to >> the label. Tables would never have made this mistake. > Wouldn't you have used a 32% table (or EAD)? I would have set my PPO2 at no higher than 1.4 and my END no lower than 80 fsw. I would have done it all on my breakfast nook table. Jayna gets upset when I leave my stuff all over the dining room table. > Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts and then hang 'till it don't... >> Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts > > and then hang 'till it don't... Glad to see there's at least one REAL diver on the group. >> Go back to basics: dive til yer elbow hurts > and then hang 'till it don't... Where were you when I needed you. Mark, up at Fill Express is driving me nuts. He's supposed to do his recreational trimix course next week and I've still not heard a word from him. Last time I was up there, a couple of weeks ago, he didn't even have the books in yet. Grrrr. Lee This kind of debate takes place every time a new technology comes out--the old timers protest, but eventually it wins out and the old methods are abandoned. Being able to multiply or divide large large numbers is still a useful skill to know, but I can't remember the last time I did this without a calculator. Morse Code has been dropped as requirement for operating an Amateur Radio. Knowledge of abacus or slide rule use is obsolete. Dive tables (for recreational diving) are still useful as a simple backup when travelling, as they are cheap and don't take much space, but I think the dive course should spend more time teaching computer use. Adam > This kind of debate takes place every time a new technology comes out--the > old timers protest, but eventually it wins out and the old methods are > abandoned. Hmmm, let's see. Plates, wings, tanks, regulators, fins, watches, depth guages and pressure guages are all technology. Jacket style BCDs, oxygen generators and rebreathers, powered propulsion devices and computers that do all that a watch, depth guage and/or pressure guage can are new technology. About the only thing I know of that's been abandoned by the agencies is buddy breathing and, in my opinion, that's been abandoned because the agencies don't think we're competent to retain the skill without regular practice or disciplined enough to practice enough. What things do you think have been abandoned? > Being able to multiply or divide large large numbers is still a useful > skill to know, but I can't remember the last time I did this without a > calculator. I don't know about you, but I divide numbers every time I fill my car, every time I buy something at the grocery store that is advertised as more than one for a "special" price. It's amazing how many times the sale price exceeds the regular price and how many people will go for the sale anyway. > Morse Code has been dropped as requirement for operating an Amateur Radio. We may regret that one day. We've all seen pictures of the trapped submariner or the survivors of some future atomic war. Pray you don't need the old technology that you no longer have. > Knowledge of abacus or slide rule use is obsolete. I doubt it. > Dive tables (for recreational diving) are still useful as a simple backup > when travelling, as they are cheap and don't take much space, but I think > the dive course should spend more time teaching computer use. You want to pay for somebody to teach you how to turn your computer on, read the display and follow it's plan? OK for you. I think I'll save my money. Ask any deep or extended time diver you run into what kind of computer he uses for his diving. I guess I should add that, no matter what PADI says, deep doesn't start at 60 feet and extended time doesn't start after an hour. Lee What things do you think > have been abandoned? Hand pumps for surface supply. Soldered copper pressure vessels. Counter-lungs for compressed air diving. J-valves. Single stage regs. Triple stage regs. Double hose regs. Oxylithe for rebreathers. CO2 inflators for BCs. Sheet rubber wetsuits. Bert deco. Hill deco. Mechanical deco meters. Off the top of my head. > What things do you think > >> have been abandoned? > > J-valves. We still use J valves at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. Apparently it's an OSHA requirement. The idea is to provide reserve air. But we don't have the levers to open the valve if we need the reserve air. That doesn't seem to bother OSHA. At a maximum depth of 12 feet, OOA is not likely to be a big problem regardless of valve. Anyway, J valves are still around. Just though you'd like to know. gc > We still use J valves at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. Apparently > it's an OSHA requirement. The idea is to provide reserve air. But we > don't have the levers to open the valve if we need the reserve air. The levers / wires work rather well for impromptu grilling accessories... Right, Lee? > > We still use J valves at the National Aquarium in Baltimore. Apparently > > it's an OSHA requirement. The idea is to provide reserve air. But we > > don't have the levers to open the valve if we need the reserve air. > > The levers / wires work rather well for impromptu grilling accessories... > Right, Lee? Just right for cocktail wenies. Lee > Just right for cocktail wenies. Well, when you're using the steel-72s with J-valves as sidemount tanks, there's not much other use for the J-valve rods... Since it is stainless steel, I didn't have to worry about melting it with my 'grill' like I would if it had been made from aluminum... |
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