Scuba Forum / General / November 2003
Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
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Dive News - 01 Nov 2003 11:26 GMT Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death
http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html
Slow Death - 02 Nov 2003 10:29 GMT >Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death > >http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031031a/s031031a.html Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he could not ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights and swimming to the surface from 35 feet?
TonyP - 02 Nov 2003 11:40 GMT >>Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights > and swimming to the surface from 35 feet? Especially 50 pounds of weights!
Splosh Junkie - 02 Nov 2003 11:47 GMT > >Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights > and swimming to the surface from 35 feet? Adrenalin, thats whats difficult.
Its gets all of us in different ways and with all the training in the world, you cant plan for how the rush will hit you. Recent inquests, St Abbs and Fort William, have shown that trained divers who get into difficulty, sometimes dont do as they are trained.
Personally speaking I've not been in a serious situation diving (A couple of freeflows and an entrapment) but in my line of work I have been trained in how to deal with an armed raid. This involved mock ups and having knives and unloaded guns pointed at me in a controlled environment. There is no adrenelin rush in this situation, excitment yes, but fear of death no.
A year after this training took place, I was involved in an armed raid which involved a pistol being aimed directly at me in 20 feet in front of me by a 14 year kid, in the space of 2 seconds I'd gone from going about my everyday job to realising I'm very close to death and every action I do from here on in, my life, and those of my staff depend on it. This wasn't a rush like parachuting, bungee jumping, motorbiking or whatever, this was a life or death situation. It like your first dive, jump, orgasm, all in one go and then amplified 1000 times. You feel every heartbeat as if your heart is a V12 engine in your chest, your limbs are ten times their weight, and your blood feels 5 times its normal temperature. Forget about breathing, thats an involuntary action that up until now you never thought about, then all of the sudden you realise that you need to breathe and force your lungs open. Thats all you think about for what seems like hours, but it is in fact micro seconds. Then you react, some react as per training, do as the situation dictates, the enemy is the dangerous animal, you are the hunted, you do as they say. I can talk about from experience now.
Then there are ones who react with their instincts, to counter react or do something completely irrational, these are normally the ones who currently have an epitath six feet above their heads. Its not their fault, its not the trainings fault, its natures fault for making us all different.
I have friends who have personal involvement with an underwater death. The man they failed to resusitate was a man of good intelligence, who was a trained, qualified and experienced diver who didn't react to a problem as he was trained (his BC hose was unconnected at the surface). This man was also GP who had saved many lives and helped hundreds of people live a better or longer life than nature intended.
Next time you find yourself, a loved one or a friend, being dragged out of the water, just remember those who are trained to keep you alive, and experience adrenalin rushes similar to those I speak of, whilst performing CPR etc.
Whats so f**king difficult about that then?
Dave C - 02 Nov 2003 17:37 GMT > > >Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Fort William, have shown that trained divers who get into difficulty, > sometimes dont do as they are trained. SNIPPED the middle of a great post...
> Next time you find yourself, a loved one or a friend, being dragged out of > the water, just remember those who are trained to keep you alive, and > experience adrenalin rushes similar to those I speak of, whilst performing > CPR etc. > > Whats so f**king difficult about that then? Great post! It's very helpful to hear some refreshingly honest and humble insight based on real experience, and without posturing and pretense. Thanks.
A humble respect for the power of adrenalin leads me to believe that the same thing could happen to me. It's a "fight or flight" response, not a "think" response. Trained behaviors don't always get activated.
I got smartened up once on a solo dive 80 feet down in reduced vis, scalloping at a fevered pace and finning so hard that my heart and lungs were screaming, when a drifting plastic bag suddenly wrapped itself around my face. It was a bug-eyed moment of terror that could have easily led to panic. Since then, I stay a little further away from the panic threshold by keeping well within my cardiovascular limits.
I would offer my sympathy and condolences to those involved in that Alaska dive accident rather than a verdict of incompetence.
Dave C
Toto - 02 Nov 2003 18:27 GMT > Great post! It's very helpful to hear some refreshingly honest and > humble insight based on real experience, and without posturing and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Dave C Or how about best laid plans of men and mice....
translation: sh.t happens.
Or Sorry for your loss.
translation: I'm not an a.s who knows f.ck all and I'm considerate of others feelings
Toto
ok, stupid human diver toss the ball... bye
James Connell - 02 Nov 2003 18:34 GMT >
> Or how about best laid plans of men and mice.... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ok, stupid human diver toss the ball... > bye you are possibly the dumest SOB i'v ever had the displeasure of finding on usenet. *PLONK*
Toto - 02 Nov 2003 23:20 GMT > > > > Or how about best laid plans of men and mice.... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you are possibly the dumest SOB i'v ever had the displeasure of finding > on usenet. *PLONK* Your such an expert. How many ffm dives on a hose have you done? In extreme cold water? In current? With out fins. How do you know the mask didn't get pulled and flooded, he was dealing with a snagged hose in current. If the people there don't know. Your f.cking clairvoyant? Or You do not know what the f.ck your talking about.
I thought so...
I'll give you the short version.
sh.t happens, he failed to correct the situation in time. He drowned.
*PLONK*
WTF is that Your brain falling in the toilet while you take a piss.
We lost a highly trained police diver in a similar type dive recovering a child a few years back. Hoses / safety lines in current are not to be played with.
Then neither where sport divers.
Rec.scuba
Toto
don't step in anything on the way out
Lee Bell - 02 Nov 2003 23:49 GMT > *PLONK*
> WTF is that Your brain falling in the toilet while you take a piss. No, that would be plink. To get a good PLONK, you need something with reasonable mass.
Lee
James Connell - 03 Nov 2003 00:24 GMT >>*PLONK* > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lee i think that was an insult, lee.
for toto: which i think it is safe to assume is short (and missspelled) for "total dipshit" - it's the sound of your silly useless posts dropong into a kill file, i knew you were stupid but even a reletively new usenet user can catch that one.
Toto - 03 Nov 2003 00:49 GMT Hey I got the spelling off the Wizard Of Oz Site. Well help out the mentaly challenge here and throw out a bone. How's it spelled and I'll change it. Of couse I can wait while you fish your brain out of the bowl and dry it off.
Toto
checks her name tag... wtf who spelled my name wrong? Hey, little doggie needs some help here!!
> >>*PLONK* > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > into a kill file, i knew you were stupid but even a reletively new > usenet user can catch that one. Lee Bell - 03 Nov 2003 01:59 GMT > i think that was an insult, lee. Yeah, but don't let it bother you. It wasn't aimed. The opportunity presented itself and the devil made me do it.
Lee
James Connell - 03 Nov 2003 15:08 GMT >>i think that was an insult, lee. > > Yeah, but don't let it bother you. It wasn't aimed. The opportunity > presented itself and the devil made me do it. > > Lee didn't bother me - i'd have probably done the same.
ya know the artical didn't really say how long these guys were down. i wonder if he set the selector block wrong and started the dive on the bailout bottle then paniced when it ran dry?
Eric - 03 Nov 2003 01:28 GMT > Great post! It's very helpful to hear some refreshingly honest and > humble insight based on real experience, and without posturing and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the same thing could happen to me. It's a "fight or flight" response, > not a "think" response. Trained behaviors don't always get activated. Agreed - I know too many people who get this deer-in-the-headlights look on their face whenever they encounter something unexpected. Different people have a different threshold for what would freak them out. Some people would freak if they lost so much as a fin. A lot of this depends upon the level of experience, but some of it just has to do with the personality of the individual. How many of you would keep a cool head if all of a sudden you suddenly couldn't draw air out of your reg in the middle of a dive? I know we all would like to think that we could handle it without the heart rate climbing up to three times the resting rate, but what would happen if it were to happen in real life??
There was an interesting program on TV some time ago about Navy Seals and the types of things they must endure in the training class in order to become an official Navy Seal. It starts (in a pool) with the instructor coming down and ripping your mask off, and/or ripping out your reg.. You then get a little time to get it all straightened out - take one (usually just one) deep breath, and then they come in and do it all over again. Towards the end of this, the instructor would not only rip the reg out of your mouth, but knot up the hose and then leave you to get it straightened out again. If you surface, you flunk the class. I don't remember the details - I think they have to stay down something like 20 minutes with this sort of stuff going on.
I guess my own reaction to the story in Alaska is that perhaps my next specialty course ought be the rescue diving class. You never know when you might need it...
-Eric
Grumman-581 - 03 Nov 2003 03:42 GMT "Eric" worte ...
> How many of you would keep a cool head if > all of a sudden you suddenly couldn't draw air > out of your reg in the middle of a dive? Dayum, time to switch tanks... No big deal...
James Connell - 02 Nov 2003 18:32 GMT >>>Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights >>and swimming to the surface from 35 feet? a better Q is - why didn't he go to the bailout? remove the immediate problem THEN solve the rest.
> Adrenalin, thats whats difficult. > > Its gets all of us in different ways and with all the training in the world, > you cant plan for how the rush will hit you. Recent inquests, St Abbs and > Fort William, have shown that trained divers who get into difficulty, > sometimes dont do as they are trained. < snipped>
research has also shown that as panic sets in there's a narrowing of 'thought'. best i can explain it is training is like an onion with the most basic training the innermost shell of the onion. as panic ( and not just panic, it happens as the task load increases) sets in the most recently ;earned skills are forgotten and you progresivly fall back on older and older learned responses - till you have nothing left then that's true panic! i truely think "dropping the weights" isn't stressed enough nor practiced enough (if at all) in Basic courses. the fear of law suits from an accident in training really leaves most divers in a bad way later.
Viking Diver - 02 Nov 2003 18:49 GMT > Next time you find yourself, a loved one or a friend, being dragged out of > the water, just remember those who are trained to keep you alive, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 23/09/03 I totally agree. I have found myself many times after a " shout" to be totally exhausted at the end of it.
You do try and react/respond as you are trained, but the real life scenario is different to all the practice that you do.
A resus annie/casualty union "patient" will not die if you F**k up.
All you can do is react as you think correct at the time.
After a real incident you are physically/mental exhausted. You need time to recover. You need time to reflect. You need support whether it was successful or not.
"to err is human..."
Please give some thought for those of us who have to act in these situations. We do have to go home at the end of the day and "act normally".
Paul, sorry but a bad w/e on call...
Mike Painter - 02 Nov 2003 18:29 GMT > >Unfamiliarity with equipment may have contributed to Alaska diver's death > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult about dumping weights > and swimming to the surface from 35 feet? There are any number of reasons it may happen. The longer post here pointed out that it takes a lot of training to do it without thinking. Divers don't get enough practice in doing this, even with soft weights and in the old days it was at best simulated because messing up the bottom of the pool was a no- no. There is also the cost of the weight belt. No this should not be a consideration but you hear it a *lot* in classes and shops and it enters into the equation. If the diver decided to go against what all the agencies have taught since at least 1968 and put the weight belt under something it adds to the problem. If the diver *did* have enough training with it outside and did not retrain it would probably be fatal.
The California Highway Patrol was among the first to realize that most firefights took place at about 21 feet. They developed a training program which included 12 rounds in 20 seconds. Fire six, eject, reload, fire six. But they were concerned about money. So the training went fire six, eject the rounds into the palm of the hand, place them in a container, reload, fire six.
They modified this when officers in the field did exactly as trained under a real situation. Fire six, EJECT THE ROUNDS INTO THE PALM OF YOUR HAND, then stand there and get hit because you had no place to put the valuable cartridges and had a hard time dropping them.
After a few incidents they started "wasting" the brass.
Iain Smith - 02 Nov 2003 23:34 GMT > Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he > could not ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult > about dumping weights and swimming to the surface from 35 > feet? Have you read the article? This was a commercial dive, using umbilicals, walking about on the bottom without fins on. The deceased had not dived in years, was using unfamiliar equipment(unsupervised and solo) which he'd had one hour's training on, was not in sight of his buddy at the time of the incident. When he had a problem with his new kit, he failed to execute the correct emergency procedures, the "last ditch" of which was to pull a weight release situated in an unusual position. That he was carrying 50lb of lead probably means that even if he had had fins on, he'd have been so overweighted as to be unable to fin to the surface.
In the mean time, his buddy, who found him in time to watch him sink to the bottom (in 12m), decided not to go after him.
Once more someone dies because they broke pretty much every basic rule in the book...
Iain
James Connell - 03 Nov 2003 00:26 GMT >>Once again an experienced diver kicks the bucket because he >>could not ditch his weights. What's so fu*king difficult [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Iain you point out it was a comercial dive than prove you have no clue what that means. a "buddy" isn't part of the deal - a tender is. please keep your stupid/clueless comments about solo diving were they belong - up your a.s.
Kevin Falconer - 03 Nov 2003 00:33 GMT I just downloaded some statistics from the DAN website with regards to accidents and fatalities. If your a member they are downloadable in pdf format. Anyway, I noticed one chart broke down the fatalities as they pertained to the divers recent diving, even experienced divers who had not dove in 1 year or longer were having far more fatalities than those with much less total experience but more recent dives. It appears those with more experience but a long lay off, had four times more fatalities than those with say 50 dives in the previous year. In other words most of the fatalities and accidents were from non frequent divers regardless of total experience, I think I have this right.....anyway, it was kind of an interesting stat, perhaps obvious but still interesting.
Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL
Toto - 03 Nov 2003 00:51 GMT > I just downloaded some statistics from the DAN website with regards to accidents > and fatalities. If your a member they are downloadable in pdf format. Anyway, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL Now that was inciteful.
Toto
steps back to allow Kevin to take a drink from her bowl.
Grumman-581 - 03 Nov 2003 08:23 GMT On 2 Nov 2003 16:33:24 -0800, kpjfalconer@aol.com (Kevin Falconer) wrote ...
>I just downloaded some statistics from the DAN website with regards to accidents >and fatalities. And the statistics show that those divers who were listed as fatalities tended to never have any subsequent accidents on later dives? <grin>
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