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Scuba Forum / General / September 2004Tech to Rec
I just got back from being on my boat for the last week - had a commercial charter up in Two Rivers, WI - and I found nearly 500 new posts on rec.scuba. But, as usual, they were mostly not worth reading. How about a thread on transferring technical techniques to entry level scuba classes? > I just got back from being on my boat for the last week - had a commercial > charter up in Two Rivers, WI - and I found nearly 500 new posts on > rec.scuba. But, as usual, they were mostly not worth reading. How about a > thread on transferring technical techniques to entry level scuba classes? Isn't that known as DIR-F? > Isn't that known as DIR-F? I was under the impression that DIR Fundamentals was intended for divers who were already certified. I'd like to hear what technically inspired techniques instructors are teaching in their open water classes. Techniques or skills that have not traditionally been part of an open water class.  SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters Interesting concept. However, most if not all recreational training agencies comply with the World Recreational Scuba Training Council Standards for minimum OW certification. I suppose that any new techniques or changes in techniques or recommendations would filter through WRSTC first? Just a WAG. Bart F. >>Isn't that known as DIR-F? > > I was under the impression that DIR Fundamentals was intended for divers who > were already certified. I'd like to hear what technically inspired > techniques instructors are teaching in their open water classes. Techniques > or skills that have not traditionally been part of an open water class. >Interesting concept. However, most if not all recreational training >agencies comply with the World Recreational Scuba Training Council >Standards for minimum OW certification. I suppose that any new >techniques or changes in techniques or recommendations would filter >through WRSTC first? Just a WAG. Is this standard accessible on the net? When was it last updated? SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>Interesting concept. However, most if not all recreational training >>agencies comply with the World Recreational Scuba Training Council [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Is this standard accessible on the net? > When was it last updated? The standards appear to be available here: http://www.wrstc.com/downloads.php >>>Interesting concept. However, most if not all recreational training >>>agencies comply with the World Recreational Scuba Training Council [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >http://www.wrstc.com/downloads.php Thanks. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > Interesting concept. However, most if not all recreational training > agencies comply with the World Recreational Scuba Training Council [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bart F. The RSTC guidelines are really quite general and provide only the barest of minimum requirements. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters > The RSTC guidelines are really quite general and provide only the barest of > minimum requirements. It's a liability thing. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > ? The RSTC guidelines are really quite general and provide only the barest of > ? minimum requirements. > > It's a liability thing. Spoken like a man who has fed just a few too many lawyers, just a few too many dollars. > Spoken like a man who has fed just a few too many lawyers, just a few too > many dollars. Yes, crappy general contractors tend to get dragged into court often. > > Spoken like a man who has fed just a few too many lawyers, just a few too > > many dollars. > > Yes, crappy general contractors tend to get dragged into court often. Are you speaking from first hand experience, Chris. Or just talking about the experiences of close, personal friends? > Are you speaking from first hand experience, Chris. Or just talking > about the experiences of close, personal friends? It's gotta be first hand. He can't prove he has a friend. (Unless you count the imaginary kind, and in his case, they're probably lying.) Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > Yes, crappy general contractors tend to get dragged into court often. Oh goody. Another anonymous coward taking the cheap shots from the cheap seats. > Another anonymous coward taking the cheap shots from the cheap seats. Anonymous? LOL, you must be f.cking kidding me. And to think I almost wanted one of your travel plates... > > Another anonymous coward taking the cheap shots from the cheap seats. > > Anonymous? LOL, you must be f.cking kidding me. > > And to think I almost wanted one of your travel plates... Good thing. You'd have to buy one from someone who has one. >>Interesting concept. However, most if not all recreational training >>agencies comply with the World Recreational Scuba Training Council [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The RSTC guidelines are really quite general and provide only the barest of > minimum requirements. If I am interpreting the following content correctly, RSTC appears to refer the details of the course content back to the discretion of the training agency involved. To wit: "4.2 Equipment. Open water level information on the physical description, operating principles, maintenance, and use of the equipment items. The subcategories of information that are to be taught about the face mask are presented as examples of recommended course detail in covering the physical description, maintenance, and competent use of each equipment item. [This sentence is the kicker] ***For similar detail regarding each of the other items, reference the training organizations' published detailed course outlines.*** (note that I added the asterisks) Ref. Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC) Minimum Course Content for Open Water Scuba Certification ©2001, Recreational Scuba Training Council, Inc. (RSTC) As Jammer so eloquently points out, there is significant liability involved regarding what an agency teaches, and I suspect that the filtering of new techniques developed for technical diving will be incororated very slowly into the mainstream OW recreational diving standards, if at all. Agencies *seem* to prefer to rely on the "time proven" techniques. However, all agencies allow leeway for individual instructors to incorporate their own styles and experience, so including "tech" configurations in the course would appear to be allowed, so long as the standard course requirements for that agency are met. FWIW, Bart F. > As Jammer so eloquently points out, there is significant liability > involved regarding what an agency teaches, and I suspect that the > filtering of new techniques developed for technical diving will be > incororated very slowly into the mainstream OW recreational diving > standards, if at all. Bullshit. When I mentioned liability, I was taking a shot at those who are afraid of it. It's a pet peeve of our pet "captain", and I was simply mocking him and those like him. Again. Fear of liability always indicates and acknowledges a known lack of knowledge. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > Bullshit. > When I mentioned liability, I was taking a shot at those who are afraid > of it. > It's a pet peeve of our pet "captain", and I was simply mocking him and > those like him. Bullshit! You just enjoy mocking people, and liability issues are one of your pet peeves. When I mentioned liability concerns, I was only pointing out that it might be a concern of some retailers, not that I am, or have ever been overly concerned with the issue. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters > Bullshit! You just enjoy mocking people, and liability issues are one of > your pet peeves. When I mentioned liability concerns, I was only pointing > out that it might be a concern of some retailers, not that I am, or have > ever been overly concerned with the issue. You should be. Not to mention that this is bullshit, too. You've made a post citing liability as reasons you do or don't do things. Which makes this post reasonably amusing, as well as pathetic. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > € As Jammer so eloquently points out, there is significant liability > € involved regarding what an agency teaches, and I suspect that the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Fear of liability always indicates and acknowledges a known lack of > knowledge. No, only fools rush in where brave men fear to tread. Fear of liability is usually acquired from painful, expensive lessons about the court system and get rich quick a.sholes. But, the eloquence comment was bullshit, I admit. As the owner of a metal plating factory, I deal with liability day in and day out. Environmental liability ... employer/employee liability ... run of the mill "I slipped on your sidewalk" liability; even "Your company truck ran over my Dachshund" liability, etc. etc. etc. It is a fact that anyone can sue anyone else for anything (in the U.S.A. anyway); they might not win, but it still costs a hell of a lot to protect your interests. So, if you are implying that training agencies are afraid of liability because they don't understand enough about tech gear and techniques, well, it could be just the opposite. Perhaps they know about it and they see lawsuit written all over it. SignatureUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > As the owner of a metal plating factory, I deal with liability day in and > day out. Environmental liability ... employer/employee liability ... run [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > could be just the opposite. Perhaps they know about it and they see > lawsuit written all over it. Don't ya just love the Bar Association? How come you never see anyone suing a lawyer for incompetence? > Don't ya just love the Bar Association? > > How come you never see anyone suing a lawyer for incompetence? Mainly because lawyers are good at covering their a.ses. But it certainly happens. Legal malpractice is a specialty unto itself, with lawyers that do nothing but sue other lawyers. Here's a bunch of examples: http://www.legal-malpractice-lawyers-attorneys.com/legal_malpractice_news.html And then there's the Bar Association, which you just love. It polices its own. In California, there were 59 California State Supreme Court final certified disbarments of attorneys in 2002, 47 in 2001, 79 in 2000. Annual suspensions number in the hundreds. > As the owner of a metal plating factory, I deal with liability day in and > day out. Environmental liability ... employer/employee liability ... run [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > could be just the opposite. Perhaps they know about it and they see > lawsuit written all over it. If you make decisions based on liability, you don't know what the hell you're doing. Period. It would mean that you and our new pet will get along just fine, though... Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > If you make decisions based on liability, you don't know what the hell > you're doing. Period. > > It would mean that you and our new pet will get along just fine, > though... quit trollin jammer - you're so damn full off sh.t. > quit trollin jammer - you're so damn full off sh.t. Jimmy! We heard you were dead... Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > € quit trollin jammer - you're so damn full off sh.t. > > Jimmy! > > We heard you were dead... the rumors of my death have been exaggerated. alive and well in Alaska. >From: James Connell jconnell@gci.net >Date: 9/23/2004 10:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the rumors of my death have been exaggerated. >alive and well in Alaska. He meant brain dead. Popeye Man is certainly stark mad. He cannot even make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens. > >From: James Connell jconnell@gci.net > >Date: 9/23/2004 10:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > He meant brain dead. I knew I'd heard he was dead somewhere... Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > ? quit trollin jammer - you're so damn full off sh.t. > > Jimmy! > > We heard you were dead... He is to me. I know of one local NAUI instructor who strongly encourages his basic open water students to bungee their alternate second stage around their necks. He doesn't go so far as the seven-foot hose on the primary, but the bungeed alternate is pretty common among even some newbie divers I see around here (Maryland). He requires it of his advanced students. Is that what you mean? gc > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >techniques instructors are teaching in their open water classes. Techniques >or skills that have not traditionally been part of an open water class. I have been equipping my Open Water students with backplates, wings and single tank adapters. I give them regulators with their back-up on the short hose with a necklace attached, their primary on a longer (39") hose with a bolt snap attached and an SPG with a bolt snap attached. Backplates and harnesses have the added advantage of being easier to stock. Fewer sizes mean you need to stock fewer units. The guidelines I use to decide what techniques to teach are: 1. Does the equipment or technique make sense for the open water diver who will probably never graduate to technical diving? 2. Does it clearly provide some important advantage to the "classic" way. 3. Will it work in an environment in which other divers are using "classic recreational" equipment or techniques without causing confusion. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters I know of one local NAUI instructor who strongly encourages his basic open water students to bungee their alternate second stage around their necks. He doesn't go so far as the seven-foot hose on the primary, but the bungeed alternate is pretty common among even some newbie divers I see around here (Maryland). He requires it of his advanced students. Is that what you mean? gc Cpt. Dale Bennett wrote: Isn't that known as DIR-F? I was under the impression that DIR Fundamentals was intended for divers who were already certified. I'd like to hear what technically inspired techniques instructors are teaching in their open water classes. Techniques or skills that have not traditionally been part of an open water class. >From: "Cpt. Dale Bennett" captndale@comcast.net >I have been equipping my Open Water students with backplates, wings and = >single tank adapters. I give them regulators with their back-up on the = [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Backplates and harnesses have the added advantage of being easier to = >stock. Fewer sizes mean you need to stock fewer units. I don't think that has anything to do with tech diving, per say. Popeye Man is certainly stark mad. He cannot even make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens. > I don't think that has anything to do with tech diving, per say. You are absolutely right. Not tech diving, recreational diving using some of the equipment and techniques developed by technical divers. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters >From: "Cpt. Dale Bennett" captndale@comcast.net >Date: 9/21/2004 10:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >You are absolutely right. Not tech diving, recreational diving using some >of the equipment and techniques developed by technical divers. So you're teaching OW in doubles? Popeye Man is certainly stark mad. He cannot even make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens. > So you're teaching OW in doubles? Actually, yes. I almost always dive doubles but I don't put them on my students. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters >From: "Cpt. Dale Bennett" captndale@comcast.net >Actually, yes. I almost always dive doubles but I don't put them on my >students. I wouldn't consider the BP/W 'technical' in this day and age. I've got almost 600 recreational dives on mine. But to each his own. I was thinking more like lift bags and deco bottles, that sort of thing. Popeye Man is certainly stark mad. He cannot even make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens. > > So you're teaching OW in doubles? > > > Actually, yes. I almost always dive doubles but I don't put them on my > students. Just curious, but wouldn't it be better to be diving the same configuration that your students are diving? > Just curious, but wouldn't it be better to be diving the same configuration > that your students are diving? In the pool, I use a single tank, configured exactly the same way as my students. In open water I usually use a small set of doubles, but the configuration is still basically the same. The only difference is that I have two first stages and my primary has a long hose. My students rarely even comment on it. They don't see a real difference. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters > > Just curious, but wouldn't it be better to be diving the same > configuration [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have two first stages and my primary has a long hose. My students rarely > even comment on it. They don't see a real difference. My mistake. I took your previous comment to mean that you dove with the doubles even during the confined water exercises. > > > So you're teaching OW in doubles? > > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just curious, but wouldn't it be better to be diving the same configuration > that your students are diving? Not necessarily. Most entry level students use basic gear. Why? Because that's all they actually *need* to learn SCUBA. They typically use wetsuits not drysuits. Entry level divers typically use single tanks and do not employ the use of dive computers and so on. It is not for the instructor to lower the equipment standard by employing nothing but "basic" equipment, but rather the entry level diver to strive towards employing the use of more sophistocated/high end, more user friendly equipment if they so desire. Entry level diver training is about learning the bare minimum requirements to enjoy SCUBA diving safely. Doesn't mean we all have to be uncivilized and use wetsuits rather than dry. =;-) -- Randy F. Milak ~Don't hate yourself in the morning - sleep till noon!~ <snip> > Not necessarily. Most entry level students use basic gear. Why? Because that's > all they actually *need* to learn SCUBA. They typically use wetsuits not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Doesn't mean we all have to be uncivilized and use wetsuits rather than dry. > =;-) While I can see the "advancement" positives in that situation, I don't beleive it is the correct attitude to take. It seems to me that it would make more sense to be outfitted similarly to your students. I would imagine it might be difficult to train your students if they were wearing BC's and all you had was a webbing harness and tank. The closer the instructor stays to what the students use (at least during confined water training), the easier the instruction should be. During my aquatics instructor training, we were taught that we should always use the same gear as the students to give them confidence in their own gear and to remove the excuse of "I could do it if I had his gear." The one exception to this was masks for snorkeling because of the fit issues. Obviously, as the students progress, the instructors gear would need to progress likewise. Also, it makes sense for the instructor to use his normal gear configuration during the check out (open water) dives, especially thermal protection if he is doing multiple classes on the same day and will be in the water for an extended time period (i.e longer than any of his students). > -- > Randy F. Milak > ~Don't hate yourself in the morning - sleep till noon!~ > So you're teaching OW in doubles? ouch... Signature"I know we're going to die. There's three of us who are going to do something about it." -Tom Burnett, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 >> I don't think that has anything to do with tech diving, per say. > > You are absolutely right. Not tech diving, recreational diving using some > of the equipment and techniques developed by technical divers. Not hardly. Long before tech diving existed, the diver either attached his harness directly to the tank, or to a backplate. > Long before tech diving existed, the diver either attached his harness > directly to the tank, or to a backplate. Yes, that's what I learned on. I was also diving doubles in the seventies. But, those designs were supplanted by equipment that was designed by the manufacturers to accommodate buoyancy compensators. As usual, the manufacturers over designed their products, putting more emphasis on marketing the bells and whistles than on sound engineering. Today, the manufacturers are doing the same thing with "technical" gear in the hope of getting market differentiation. Would it be heresy to point out that even Halcyon is guilty of this? SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters > ... As usual, the >manufacturers over designed their products, putting more emphasis on >marketing the bells and whistles than on sound engineering. Today, the >manufacturers are doing the same thing with "technical" gear in the hope of >getting market differentiation. Would it be heresy to point out that even >Halcyon is guilty of this? Nope. Look at Halcyon's Active Control Ballast weight pockets for an example. In contrast, their "BC Trim Weighting System", which I just noticed for the first time, looks much nicer. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > I don't think that has anything to do with tech diving, per say. Well, it doesn't have anything to do with recreational diving, so what's left? Oh, wait, fire diving... Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > The guidelines I use to decide what techniques to teach are: ...none at all. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 >I have been equipping my Open Water students with backplates, wings and >single tank adapters. I give them regulators with their back-up on the >short hose with a necklace attached, their primary on a longer (39") >hose with a bolt snap attached and an SPG with a bolt snap attached. Sounds like I'd recommend your course! What do you have them use for a depth gauge/bottom timer/computer? SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > In article <ZF44d.88091$D%.51348@attbi_s51>, > Sounds like I'd recommend your course! > > What do you have them use for a depth gauge/bottom timer/computer? Since most open water divers will be using computers in their diving, I teach them how to use them in their class. I give them a simple air computer to wear on their wrist. I drill them by asking them with hand signals at random times for their depth and time. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters I have been equipping my Open Water students with backplates, wings and single tank adapters. I give them regulators with their back-up on the short hose with a necklace attached, their primary on a longer (39") hose with a bolt snap attached and an SPG with a bolt snap attached. Backplates and harnesses have the added advantage of being easier to stock. Fewer sizes mean you need to stock fewer units. The guidelines I use to decide what techniques to teach are: 1. Does the equipment or technique make sense for the open water diver who will probably never graduate to technical diving? 2. Does it clearly provide some important advantage to the "classic" way. 3. Will it work in an environment in which other divers are using "classic recreational" equipment or techniques without causing confusion. Good for you. How is it working out? Any feedback yet? I think the confusion issue is mute, anyway. Up here in the PNW, you see students from various shops that have completely different gear and configurations. They couldn't be more different. One of the local yaks, after playing on the fears of that "Open Water" movie, now "requires" and sells his students strobe lights that must be attached to epaulets on their poodle jackets. First time we saw it, and had the rational explained to us, we were just left standing there, slack jawed. I have to wonder (but didn't pose the thought to them, it was too much fun watching them all gear up, and test their strobes) if the whine of charging the capacitor, and then the discharge combined with light might not just attract sharks that might normally not have sensed your presence... > Good for you. > How is it working out? Any feedback yet? > I think the confusion issue is mute, anyway. > Up here in the PNW, you see students from various shops that have completely > different gear and configurations. They couldn't be more different. Feed back from my students has been uniformly positive. Some other instructors have reservations, especially those involved in selling equipment. I discourage the buying of all of those nice colorful plastic accessories with the large mark-ups. As far as problems with configuration compatibility - An example would be the placement of the back-up regulator. I have my students wear their back-up on a necklace. Two feet of thin bungee and two stainless hog rings. Total cost - about $ .50, and the regulator almost never falls out. Because most PADI instructors are still teaching their students to go for the "octopus" regulator I make the necklaces so that the regulator can be pulled out with a hard tug - unlike the necklace on my tech rig. On my technical rig, I have the necklace firmly secured under the mouthpiece retainer since I expect my team mates to go for the regulator in my mouth. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters > George Cathcart wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > He requires it of his advanced students. Recreational diver training guidelines concerning the placement of the back up 2nd stage (a.k.a alternate regulator) would be any conspicuous location within the "triangle" area of the diver. The "triangle" area starts at the peak (divers' mouth) to the outer most left and right side of the diver's body. Your NAUI instructor is consistently meeting that requirement satisfactorily with the neck laced back up regulator. OOA (out of air) is OOA regardless of whether it is a 'recreational' or 'technical' profile and the protocol for the emergency itself remains fairly consistent. Only the egress from said inconvenience differs depending on the (a) environment, (b) the profile, and/or (c) the use of a long hose. Following the most widely accepted (PADI/NAUI etc.) recreational egress methodology ensuing an OOA emergency while employing a long hose for the back up (alternate) regulator is a really, really bad idea. If the hose length changes, so must the egress methodology. -- Randy F. Milak ~Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you weren't asleep!~ > I'd like to hear what technically inspired techniques instructors are > teaching in their open water classes. You need to know the techniques, first, "captain". Signature"I know we're going to die. There's three of us who are going to do something about it." -Tom Burnett, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > I just got back from being on my boat for the last week - had a commercial > charter up in Two Rivers, WI - and I found nearly 500 new posts on > rec.scuba. But, as usual, they were mostly not worth reading. How about a > thread on transferring technical techniques to entry level scuba classes? Feel free to describe your thoughts on the subject. :-) Dennis > How about a thread on transferring technical techniques to entry > level scuba classes? You bet, "captain". gue.com. There, that's done. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > € How about a thread on transferring technical techniques to entry > € level scuba classes? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > There, that's done. Yeah, but GUE does it to make money, not because it makes any sense. So take yer spam elsewhere. We don't want it. > I just got back from being on my boat for the last week - had a commercial > charter up in Two Rivers, WI - and I found nearly 500 new posts on > rec.scuba. But, as usual, they were mostly not worth reading. How about a > thread on transferring technical techniques to entry level scuba classes? Having gone both directions, I'm not sure there really is such a thing. In either direction. But lemme thinks some more about it. >From: "Cpt. Dale Bennett" captndale@comcast.net >Date: 9/21/2004 1:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >charter up in Two Rivers, WI - and I found nearly 500 new posts on >rec.scuba. But, as usual, they were mostly not worth reading. I thought they were fine. >How about a thread on transferring technical techniques to entry level scuba classes? What techniques do you consider technically oriented? I'd say offhand it would be a waste of time. Popeye Man is certainly stark mad. He cannot even make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by the dozens. > I'd say offhand it would be a waste of time. That's why the "captain" is interested. Signature"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg. Some of us didn't come back. If you weren't there, you'll never understand." -Unknown Infantryman |
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