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Scuba Forum / General / August 2004Bad Experience with Scuba Lessons - Advice?
Hi Everyone, I'm not going to name names, as I'm not trying to slander anyone, but just get advice. But I've just done two lessons with a certain scuba training program, with a friend of mine, and we're thinking of dropping out. Now, this is a highly regarded instructor in the area, as far as I can tell. He has 30 years of teaching experience, and certifies under a well-respected certification program. When he talks you know he knows his stuff. His staff were almost all his students and they all gave high recommendation and praise for him. The price is also right -- one of the best values in the area, can pay per class instead of all at once, and none of your own gear is required to start off. Talking to the instructor on the phone made me really confident that this guy knew what he was doing and would make sure we did as well. Great! He liked to spend a half an hour more in the pool than most other cert courses in the area. Good! Lowest student-to-instructor ratio in the area. Nice! In fact, he was even willing to let students come back for extra classes or one-on-one extra help sessions at no extra charge. Awesome! However, come the first lecture, we started to have some issues with his teaching style. Right off the bat in lecture he seemed to be going too fast. Buzzing through material, with barely any time to write it down, and pretty much no stopping for questions. Well, it was the first day, we thought, and there was a lot to get through. In the pool, things seemed rushed. Before we had even gotten a chance to try on flippers he had started talking to everyone. Before we had finished fitting our masks it was time to go in the pool. Swim tests ensued (without flippers, of course) without incident. Then basic snorkel stuff: clearing masks and snorkels. Here's where things started getting concerning. Now, I've snorkeled a lot before and have done a scuba resort course, so I was pretty familiar with what was going on, and didn't have much of a problem. However, my friend was new to all of this, and she couldn't get the mask and snorkel clearing down. In fact, she only had time for about 2 or 3 reps of each manouver before we all moved on. She was assured, however, that we'd have more time to practice in upcoming pool lessons. He even mentioned that we'd do each manouver 5 times per lesson from here on to make sure we got it. Ok, fine. Well, other than feeling rushed and feeling like we didn't get enough practice to get things down, it wasn't bad so far. We figured things would get better by next class. Well. The next lecture was just as rushed as the first. No real time for questions. Blasting through material. Finally got our textbooks (they didn't come in the first day). But... well, nothing really concerning. Then we got in the water. Things went relatively smoothly at first. Donned the BC's and got to know them and inflating them orally. Practiced using flippers, swam up and down the pool with a few different strokes. Good so far. Well, except that we didn't ever get to "repeating each manouver 5 more times." The old manouvers we learned monday were completely in the past -- even though we hadn't gotten about half of them down at all yet. The pace was too fast to even interject the suggestion that we practice old moves. In fact, even when questions were asked about current material, such as fitting the BC, he would deflect them before the question was even finished. No time for questioning by the students, apparently! he would usually say something like "I've been doing this for 30 years! trust me!" (he liked touting that a lot...) Now this is where the *real* problem occurs, that made us *really* concerned, not just for the annoyance level of the class, but for our own safety. So far in the course we've learned how to swim with fins, and BC, and how to clear masks and snorkels. We've *talked* in lecture about equalizing, but we haven't done any exercises or practice in doing it. In this context, he got all the students to float in the deep end, with BC's inflated, and had his assistant demonstrate a face-first dive. Deflate BC, get a big breath of air, kick your feet up, hold your nose and equalize while going down, touch the bottom, come back up with your hand above your head turning and looking at a 45 degree angle, fill your BC, clear your snorkel. He demonstrated this twice. Then he had the students do it. ... HE HAD THE STUDENTS ALL GO DOWN *QUICKLY* INTO 10 FEET OF DEPTH WITH ABSOLUTELY NO PRACTICE ON HOW TO EQUALIZE. Now, I've heard that you can surely rupture your ear in an 8 foot pool. THE INSTRUCTOR HIMSELF EVEN TOLD US THAT SOME PEOPLE CAN RUPTURE AS SHALLOW AS 4.5 FEET. No going down little by little. No making sure everyone can equalize and that everyone's comfortable by equallizing. Just BOOM. Down 10 feet. My friend couldn't equalize her ears. They didn't rupture, but she couldn't get them to equalize. She complained to the instructor about this. He said "did you have a cold recently?" She said "no." he said "well, try equalizing earlier. Try it before you go down." she said that she couldn't equalize at *all*, even on the surface. He didn't hear her. THEN HE HAD EVERYONE REPEAT THE EXERCISE. She still couldn't equalize. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, now, all you scuba gurus. You guys who have done the training, and have known lots of instructors, and especially those of you who have taught: Is this a normal way to teach this? Is this *acceptable*? Is this even safe? Obviously we're not going to continue learning from him. Is this the right decision? Should we register a complaint about his teaching style? Should we ask for our money back? And finally: How the hell do we find a teacher who *won't* be like this? How can we find someone who will teach us the way we need to be taught, without wasting hundreds of dollars every time we try a new one? Can it be better than this? I'm afraid that other courses will be even more rushed and pay less attention to the students. We really don't have the money to sink into private lessons. But we really want to learn scuba. What should we do?? Thanks for your advice. -Ken <snip> > Ok, now, all you scuba gurus. I'm no guru, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. > You guys who have done the training, and > have known lots of instructors, and especially those of you who have > taught: Is this a normal way to teach this? Is this *acceptable*? Is > this even safe? No comment. > Obviously we're not going to continue learning from him. Is this the > right decision? If you aren't comfortable learning from him, it's exactly teh right deicsion. > Should we register a complaint about his teaching > style? Should we ask for our money back? Definitely ask for your money back. > And finally: How the hell do we find a teacher who *won't* be like > this? How can we find someone who will teach us the way we need to be > taught, without wasting hundreds of dollars every time we try a new > one? You might ask around and see if any of the other instructors in town will allow you to sit in on a class before committing. > Can it be better than this? Yes. > I'm afraid that other courses will be even > more rushed and pay less attention to the students. Some will, others won't. > We really don't > have the money to sink into private lessons. But we really want to > learn scuba. What should we do?? What area are you located in? It's quite possible that someone here lives near you and can recommend a decent instructor/shop. > Hi Everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > HE HAD THE STUDENTS ALL GO DOWN *QUICKLY* INTO 10 FEET OF DEPTH WITH > ABSOLUTELY NO PRACTICE ON HOW TO EQUALIZE. Once you know "how" to equalize, the only thing left is to do it. It's not really something you can learn on the surface, even if many divers recommending first doing it there. To actually equalize, you need the external pressure to equalize against. It's hard to practice something that requires pressure, while still on the surface. In fact, if you do it too forcefully, it can be dangerous. > Now, I've heard that you can surely rupture your ear in an 8 foot > pool. THE INSTRUCTOR HIMSELF EVEN TOLD US THAT SOME PEOPLE CAN RUPTURE [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > couldn't get them to equalize. She complained to the instructor about > this. I have to ask, did your friend experience acute pain? If not, she was probably equalizing better than she thought. Perhaps the real problem was that it is so easy for her that she didn't even notice it had happened. Some people are like that. Wish I was. If she did feel severe pain, the obvious question is "why didn't she head back to the surface immediately?" I would not have thought anybody had to be told that it's not supposed to be painful. > Ok, now, all you scuba gurus. You guys who have done the training, and > have known lots of instructors, and especially those of you who have > taught: Is this a normal way to teach this? Is this *acceptable*? Is > this even safe? There is no normal. You already know the answers to the other questions. You've seen his other students. The real question is, "is this the instructor for you?" The answer may be no. Perhaps you need more attention and more time to learn than those that are comfortable with your instructor's performance. If so, you're right to go elsewhere are, perhaps, ask if he would consider more personal, slower paced lessons for you and your friend. Perhaps private or semiprivate lessons are more appropriate for you. It will probably cost you more, but probably not as much as paying for another course. If you are not happy with the instruction you're getting, you probably should ask for a refund, but you're probably not going to get one. > Obviously we're not going to continue learning from him. Is this the > right decision? Should we register a complaint about his teaching > style? Should we ask for our money back? It's your right to register a complaint, but if the majority of the instructors students like his style, your complain isn't likely to have a lot of effect. It's not the instructor's fault that his style is not right for you, well, not entirely his fault. > And finally: How the hell do we find a teacher who *won't* be like > this? How can we find someone who will teach us the way we need to be > taught, without wasting hundreds of dollars every time we try a new > one? You ask more about class size and timing. Some courses are more rapid paced than others. Perhaps a slower one is more appropriate for you. If so, you want one that provides more time per session, more time between sessions and/or more sessions in total. > Can it be better than this? I'm afraid that other courses will be even > more rushed and pay less attention to the students. We really don't > have the money to sink into private lessons. But we really want to > learn scuba. What should we do?? What's good for one is not always good for another. It appears this instructor is not for you, but it's not entirely his fault. He probably is right for others. Personally, I prefer a brisk pace, but my preferences need not be yours. Lee >Great! He liked to spend a half an hour more in the pool than most >other cert courses in the area. Good! Did he do this - half an hour more? >Lowest student-to-instructor ratio in the area. Nice! Is it? >In fact, he was even willing to let students come back for extra >classes or one-on-one extra help sessions at no extra charge. Awesome! You dont mention having asked for this. Why dont you try? You must have discussed the speed with other students - are all the others comfortable with it? If not, you could ask him to slow down as a group. During my PADI Open water, I read the book on my own, watched the video on my own, answered the Knowledge questions, asked a few questions before/during/after class, did the multiple choice exam - fine. If someone had slowed me down, I would probably have been as cheesed off as you are with the speed of things. He sounds like my kind of instructor but ...... Different Strokes? I was slightly concerned that my instructor was whizzing through things in the pool, and said so. He said that I would be doing most of the simple things regularly as a matter of course e.g. mask clearing, equalising, inflating/deflating BCD, putting together and taking apart kit, etc. and he was right. In addition, everything is practised again in the open water dives, (sea, lake, or whatever). By the end of 2/3 pool sessions, and 4 Open Water Dives, and a bunch of reading the manual alone, or with your friend, you should be familiar with the theory, safety, and practice. You will be doing many things automatically as you build your skills and, at the end of the course, you will be ready to start practising getting better at the things you have learned. When you do the CESA, when you get to the surface, dont forget that you are simulating No Air and arent allowed to inflate your BCD with the buttons - it must be by mouth <g> Like somebody else has said, you equalise or you dont. If you dont, ascend a bit and try again. If it doesnt work, you dont dive. Try gently on the surface, then every metre, or even all the time. My other half didnt get it all during the sessions, but she belongs to a NAUI dive club and went to their pool sessions each week for extra practice with her instructor. Dont forget to ask him about the 1 to 1, or 1 to 2, extra sessions free of charge as promised.  SignatureRichard Faulkner >highly regarded instructor >30 years of teaching experience >The price is also right >none of your own gear is required to start off >Lowest student-to-instructor ratio in the area. And you're going shopping for a better instruktor? Good luck! You're getting a certification card ... that's it. You seem to have lost sight of that. >THE INSTRUCTOR HIMSELF EVEN TOLD US THAT SOME PEOPLE CAN RUPTURE >AS SHALLOW AS 4.5 FEET. Sounds like a proper warning was provided. If you and your partner do not know the meaning of self preservation, perhaps you should find a less 'dangerous' hobby. >My friend couldn't equalize her ears. They didn't rupture, but she >couldn't get them to equalize. She complained to the instructor about >this. Equalization is a 'talent' each individual must develop. I learned how to equalize by accident flying the friendly skies. I applied what I learned through air travel to diving, and I have never had to pinch my nose to equalize. >He said "did you have a cold recently?" She said "no." That was SCUBA tact. Recognize it ... and respect it. >THEN HE HAD EVERYONE REPEAT THE EXERCISE. She still couldn't equalize. Here's a suggestion: Next time you're with your partner in a pool, descend slowly down a ladder or other stable object. I can't think of any better way to control your descent while practicing equalization. It'll keep your hands away from your nose ... you'll have to be comfortable holding your breath while doing a bit more than diving to depth or simply nothing at all ... you (or her) have absolute control over your depth. If there's no time during class to do this, make time for it elsewhere. People will always learn at different rates. You'll definitely want to do this exercise before diving to 60 feet. I've never seen anyone describe how to equalize in a way that I could understand and readily translate to a newbie. Think "yawn under water without getting water in your mouth and nose." Maybe someone else here will try to do better. >Is this a normal way to teach this? Is this *acceptable*? Is >this even safe? Again, you're demonstrating that _you_ have lost sight of your goal: To become a certified diver. You clearly state below that you cannot afford private lessons. Why are you trying to get something you're not paying for, from this instruktor? >Obviously we're not going to continue learning from him. Is this the >right decision? Should we register a complaint about his teaching >style? Should we ask for our money back? You need to rethink this bad decision. You need to communicate. You have a problem (everyone does :-)). Recognize it, deal with it, move ahead. Hopefully, you haven't burned any bridges with this instruktor and you can finish what you've started without any financial loss. >And finally: How the hell do we find a teacher who *won't* be like >this? How can we find someone who will teach us the way we need to be >taught, without wasting hundreds of dollars every time we try a new >one? Hmmm ... get certified ... find some dive buddies who are more experienced than you are ... dive with them a lot ... ask them lots of questions. You're taking a certification course ... don't confuse this with "training." >Can it be better than this? I'm afraid that other courses will be even >more rushed and pay less attention to the students. We really don't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Thanks for your advice. >-Ken -- Barnacle Barney That which does not kill us makes us stronger. -Friedrich Nietzsche- > I've never seen anyone describe how to equalize in a way that I could > understand and readily translate to a newbie. Think "yawn under water > without getting water in your mouth and nose." Maybe someone else > here will try to do better. Oh common. Lets have some fun; Lets describe how to clear while wearing a MKV... I'm getting the feeling that a lot of you don't understand the issue here. Going too fast wasn't the problem, as we could have taken him up on the extra lessons to catch up. The problem was that we felt he was ENDANGERING US RECKLESSLY. We had only talked briefly about equalization. We had no practice at all doing it. Without making sure that all the students could actually do it, he sent us all down 10 feet in a rapid surface dive manouver. Now, according to what HE said, and what some people on this NG have said, some people *can* rupture their eardrums in 4-8 feet of pool water if they don't equalize. This is NOT an issue of "pace." This is an issue of SAFETY. When I took the resort course, the first time we tried equalizing was with our regulators in our mouths, so we could go down a few feet at a time and make sure we got it down. Someone in an older message on this NG said she teaches her students to equalize by having them slide down the bottom of the pool at their own paces. This guy had *everyone* just shoot down 10 feet from the get-go. EVEN AFTER MY FRIEND COMPLAINED THAT SHE COULDN'T EQUALIZE HE HAD HER GO DOWN AGAIN WITH VERY LITTLE ADDITIONAL ADVICE. And she did feel sharp pain in her ears. No, she didn't "surface immediately" because she was DOING WHAT THE INSTRUCTOR TOLD HER TO DO. Don't blame the student for the instructor's mistake!! We found out later that she couldn't get the valsalva manouver to work, but the ... i think toynbee manouver? ... where you close your mouth and nose and swallow, worked great for her. Now don't you think this is something the INSTRUCTOR should have told us? No, we had to figure it out reading the book. And he didn't get the books to us until the 2nd lesson, so don't blame it on us again by saying we should have read ahead of time. Finally I don't see why "the majority of students thought it was ok" will mean the complaint is null and void. How is this *not* reckless and dangerous to send students *rapidly* down to a depth where people *can and have* burst their eardrums without making sure *everyone* is comfortable with equalizing??? Ken (snip). How is this *not* reckless > and dangerous to send students *rapidly* down to a depth where people > *can and have* burst their eardrums without making sure *everyone* is > comfortable with equalizing??? I find it hard to believe that the instructor had the students descend rapidly. No new divers that I've ever met can descend rapidly without experiencing equalization problems. There may, however, have been a misunderstanding. In any event, equalize on the surface before descent, equalize again as soon as descent begins and then every foot or so as descent continues. Equalize early, equalize often and take as long to descend as it takes. If there's a problem with the ears, ascend a foot or so and try again. Don't descend until comfortable. > This guy had *everyone* just shoot down 10 feet from the get-go. EVEN > AFTER MY FRIEND COMPLAINED THAT SHE COULDN'T EQUALIZE HE HAD HER GO > DOWN AGAIN WITH VERY LITTLE ADDITIONAL ADVICE. BFD. Some of us can't always equalize in the time it takes to dive to the bottom of a 10' pool. It's only 10 frickin' feet. Deal with it. As a dumb kid I would go snorkeling around Catalina, diving 20' or more, putting up with the pain in my head because it was cool down there. We dive because it's cool down there. You will experience pain in your ears, pain in your sinuses, bloody noses, cold, strong desire to urinate (if in a drysuit), sore lungs, mask squeeze, sunburn, cramps, miscellaneous cuts and scrapes and stings from various marine organisms that take a month to heal. I've often experienced all that on a single dive. I've been conked on the head plenty of times and had a tank dropped on my foot twice. I've seen much worse happen to others. People die in this "sport" and I've seen that too. And you're whining about a little ear discomfort at this stage? Do us all a favor. Take up golf. > We found out later that she couldn't get the valsalva manouver to > work, but the ... i think toynbee manouver? ... where you close your [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > until the 2nd lesson, so don't blame it on us again by saying we > should have read ahead of time. That's the only thing IMO your instructor did wrong. If he's going to fly through class, you should at least have done some advance reading, watching a video, whatever. Then you become a Von Fourche, merely fine-tuning in the pool all the stuff you already know about in theory. > Finally I don't see why "the majority of students thought it was ok" > will mean the complaint is null and void. How is this *not* reckless > and dangerous to send students *rapidly* down to a depth where people > *can and have* burst their eardrums without making sure *everyone* is > comfortable with equalizing??? Haven't you ever been graded on a curve? > You will experience pain in your > ears, pain in your sinuses, bloody noses, cold, strong desire to urinate (if > in a drysuit), sore lungs, mask squeeze, sunburn, cramps, miscellaneous cuts > and scrapes and stings from various marine organisms that take a month to > heal. I've often experienced all that on a single dive. Wow. Almost all things that they teach you how to avoid in the basic course! You must have been a model student. At any rate, I feel bad for your dive buddy. Ken > > You will experience pain in your > > ears, pain in your sinuses, bloody noses, cold, strong desire to urinate (if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wow. Almost all things that they teach you how to avoid in the basic > course! You must have been a model student. It's no problem avoiding all the above in the basic course. The real ocean is another matter altogether. > At any rate, I feel bad for your dive buddy. Buddy? Oh yeah, they taught that too . . . >We dive because it's cool down there. You will experience pain in your >ears, pain in your sinuses, bloody noses, cold, strong desire to urinate (if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >seen much worse happen to others. People die in this "sport" and I've seen >that too. Everybody sing now! Hey! Hey! Hey, hey, hey! Macho, macho man (macho man) I've got to be, a macho man Macho, macho man I've got to be a macho! Ow.... http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Macho-Man-lyrics-Village-People/B4F306562 2CA393F48256DF20009B350 > >We dive because it's cool down there. You will experience pain in your > >ears, pain in your sinuses, bloody noses, cold, strong desire to urinate (if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >seen much worse happen to others. People die in this "sport" and I've seen > >that too. > Macho, macho man (macho man) Macho? That was me whining. Why do you think I haven't been diving locally for a while? And I forgot to mention the back aches, smashed fingers, hangovers, microbubble-induced lethargy, bad hearing, bad coffee, and hangovers. Ever had a bad case of the runs on a slow, slow day-long dive boat in Mexico when the head broke within the first hour? >> >We dive because it's cool down there. You will experience pain in your >> >ears, pain in your sinuses, bloody noses, cold, strong desire to urinate [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Ever had a bad case of the runs on a slow, slow day-long dive boat in Mexico >when the head broke within the first hour? hehehe, Oh in that case... Whiner! Get some macho on dude! Tough it out! Wadda think this is a resort or something? :) Yes, colds and sinus squeezes, sunburn and all the casualties of exposure to the elements and bad, bad coffee chefs can be a problem. You're just not supposed to be diving while sustaining them. IMO, they have a hit-and-run DI who wants to concede as little time as possible to his students for their money. He promises no extra charge, but will he deliver on that promise? I also wonder if there are not some other students in that class who may be rushing to complete their certifications against a deadline. They might be whining about getting it done so they can be ready for that diving vacation. Perhaps these posters will be more comfortable with this instructor in another group of students. > I'm getting the feeling that a lot of you don't understand the issue > here. > > Going too fast wasn't the problem, as we could have taken him up on > the extra lessons to catch up. Ok, you spent alot of time saying how "brisk" things were going. Now you say you could have done the extra lessons. So it was pointless to bring up how fast things were progressing because a resolution to that already existed. You intended to paint a picture of him as someone who was uncaring of your concerns. > The problem was that we felt he was ENDANGERING US RECKLESSLY. > > We had only talked briefly about equalization. We had no practice at > all doing it. Without making sure that all the students could actually > do it, he sent us all down 10 feet in a rapid surface dive manouver. You won't know at the surface if the technique works. > Now, according to what HE said, and what some people on this NG have > said, some people *can* rupture their eardrums in 4-8 feet of pool > water if they don't equalize. > > This is NOT an issue of "pace." This is an issue of SAFETY. The instructor demonstrated a breath hold surface dive in a 10 foot pool and had the students mirror the demo and attempt to equalize...and you are mainly upset that he put you in danger of bursting your ear drums by doing this, and this is why you want to give it up? 1) Use common sense, if you can't equalize, do NOT continue to descend, head for the surface. Maybe the instructor should have mentioned it, but it just seems so much like common sense and self preservation. He is not asking anyone to burst their ear drums. 2) Sure, it is POSSIBLE to rupture your eardrum in a 10 foot pool. YES, the greatest pressure shift is near the surface. But, go to any public pool and watch everyone jumping in off the dive boards or head first off the edge. Many people touch bottom with their hands when they dive this way. Most of them don't know anything about equalizing and have no idea they can burst their ear drum. Yet, unless they already have a problem with their ears, their risk of bursting an ear drum is minimal. I mean can you imagine the pool scene if everyone burst an ear drum when they dove in? What is more likely to happen is that the tympanic membrane will be stretched and some of the tiny capillaries in it may bleed into the membrane as a result. It might feel like your ear is "full" afterwards and it goes away as the tiny hemorrages get absorbed. Think of a bruised eardrum, this is likely what you get if you don't equalize as well and often as needed. I don't want to minimize the risks, but lets not go off the deep end with them, either. Many of us didn't know how to equalize until we felt that pressure. If you feel the pressure, your eardrum is being stretched and you could start bleeding in those little capillaries if you don't relieve the pressure. It is a signal to do something. You equalize or you ascend, you do not continue to go down. 3) We were cautioned so much not to blow hard when we were told how to clear that initially, I couldn't clear either. In fact, I believe I learned the skill only when I put on full scuba gear and fully submerged in the pool. People who can move their jaw, hold their tongue to the roof of their mouth and swallow, yawn, or whatever to equalize are out there. However, sometimes I gotta pinch and blow or the clearing just doesn't happen. It is one technique that usually works for me when the others don't. There are alot of reasons people have difficulty equalizing and some of them are just individual physical attributes. Yes, it would have been nice if he taught all the ways possible to clear. Instead, he only showed the most usual beginners way to do it. 4) You need to practice and read on your own. I was fortunate to have a pool at the shop where I certified, but any bit of water should work for simple things like mask clear and any public pool or body of water can work for equalizing on a surface dive. You are being shown a skill. It is really up to you to practice until you feel comfortable with it. Even if, or after, you certify - you will be responsible to perfect your own skills. You won't have perfect weighting, perfect buoyancy, perfect anything immediately after certifying. You will make some mistakes and you will learn from them or you will choose to give up. Diving and its inherent risk is not for everyone. It is as safe a sport as YOU make it. > When I took the resort course, the first time we tried equalizing was > with our regulators in our mouths, so we could go down a few feet at a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > AFTER MY FRIEND COMPLAINED THAT SHE COULDN'T EQUALIZE HE HAD HER GO > DOWN AGAIN WITH VERY LITTLE ADDITIONAL ADVICE. Oh, so he did make some additional suggestions. > And she did feel sharp pain in her ears. No, she didn't "surface > immediately" because she was DOING WHAT THE INSTRUCTOR TOLD HER TO DO. > Don't blame the student for the instructor's mistake!! Thinking for oneself, logically and clearly, is the one skill I most value in a dive buddy. Taking responsibility for ones own actions is another. Here is rule number one for me and my dive buddy: "Anyone can end a dive at anytime no questions asked." If at anytime you feel you can't handle what is going on, even just a bad feeling you can't shake, you always have that option open to you. I have never used the rule and my dive buddy used it once "on a bad feeling" The dive was ended for no particular reason, no questions asked. The gist of the rule is "If you don't feel safe, don't do it". No matter who or what compells you. > We found out later that she couldn't get the valsalva manouver to > work, but the ... i think toynbee manouver? ... where you close your > mouth and nose and swallow, worked great for her. Did it work at depth, or just on the surface? If it is only on the surface, it may not necessarily work for her at depth. Now don't you think > this is something the INSTRUCTOR should have told us? Perhaps he should have, but one attempt at a valsalva doesn't mean it won't work on the second attempt. Many people don't "get it" the very first time. No, we had to > figure it out reading the book. And he didn't get the books to us > until the 2nd lesson, so don't blame it on us again by saying we > should have read ahead of time. Of course, nothing is your fault. Ok, now you are pissed off. Better pissed off than dead. Do not hand responsibilty for your own personal safety to anyone. You are the one that cares most about yourself and you need to take responsibility. Bringing out a laundry list of everything the instructor did wrong will do you no good if you surface under a boat going 30mph. You have the books, you have internet access, you have a library, you have this newsgroup, you have an instructor with 30 years of experience. Learn whatever you can from whatever source you can. There is no "one-stop shop" where you learn everything you need to know. If there is, someone please clue me in. > Finally I don't see why "the majority of students thought it was ok" > will mean the complaint is null and void. I didn't make the comment, but I'll comment on it. Teachers teach so that the "majority" of students will "get it". If you "don't get it", you need to stay after school. >Finally I don't see why "the majority of students thought it was ok" >will mean the complaint is null and void. How is this *not* reckless >and dangerous to send students *rapidly* down to a depth where people >*can and have* burst their eardrums without making sure *everyone* is >comfortable with equalizing??? It might have been me who said this: What I meant was that if the majority thought it was not OK, you could approach him as a group and ask him to modify things for you as a group. This may have avoided the need for 1 to 1's. If most thought it was OK, then the 1 to 1's may have been appropriate. It would seem from yours & your buddys' post that you will not be going back to this guy - That is probably the best thing you can do. The instructor who taught me occasionally heard me "moaning" about something or other, and he was extremely concerned that I was either not happy with him, or the school, when, in actual fact, I was merely "moaning" because some of the skills and activities are somewhat challenging, take a bit of thinking about, and occasionally a bit painful and hard work. I explained this to him several times, and that he need not be concerned with my opinion of him or the school. I am saying this because there will be an instructor out there who is sensitive to your needs, but you need to find them. Mine was in Madeira, so probably not much use for you in Boston. My other half did her open water with Camel Dive in Sharm el Sheikh, (I wasnt there). She said the instructor was a real "tyrant" who made her and other students do things over and over until they got the idea. She liked him and appreciated his efforts by the end of the course <g> SignatureRichard Faulkner hello, the post ken made left out a few details. since i am the "friend" in question i just thought i'd clarify and add some things and hopefully answer some of the questions in the process, to give you a clearer picture. > In fact, he was even willing to let students come back for extra classes or > one-on-one extra help sessions at no extra charge. someone here suggested i ask about extra one-on-one help sessions: first of all i believe the way he presented it you would need to go through the whole course first. this means a)paying everything before i would even be sure that the instructor would ever be of help to me; and b) having to go through significantly harder and potentially more physically dangerous drills before i'd be able to actually get the basics down. as ken mentioned, the class was simply too fast-paced to be able to practice any manuever more than twice. because of this i would not feel comfortable or safe "moving on" to drills that incorporated multiple manuevers without first being able to know what i was doing with the individual ones comprising the drills. and more importantly, if this guy is already helping to make the classes a nightmare for me due to his teaching style, what makes anyone think i'm going to suffer through the course with him only to be rewarded by getting ONE-ON-ONE time with him? ugh. no thanks. hopefully i'll explain why i feel this way in an adequate manner. > Right off the bat in lecture he seemed to be going too fast. Buzzing through > material, with barely any time to write it down it was physically impossible at times for my hand to keep up writing this stuff down. if we'd had the books the first day and actually been assigned chapters to read, it would have perhaps been easier for me to filter what needed to be written down and what was already in the book for me to read. but that's neither here nor there. i've been to college. i've taken notes. i know the basic idea. when someone is talking so fast you can't actually hear individual words clearly enough to jot them down = problem. > In the pool, things seemed rushed. Before we had even gotten a chance > to try on flippers he had started talking to everyone. Before we had > finished fitting our masks it was time to go in the pool. he was kind of a jerk when i asked him to demonstrate mask fitting again. i'm not going to go into details, but i felt he was rather belligerent. as far as fins go, by the time we were done getting everything else he was ready to start lecturing and was impatient. we were told to just grab some we felt would fit. there were a ton of fins there. we did what we could. come second lecture, we noticed everyone but us had adjustable straps on their fins. we were the only two who did not. when i mentioned this to him he said we'd be fine. however... maybe it's just because it was my first time ever using fins but my feet started cramping up before i'd gotten halfway down the pool (flutter kicking) in them. in addition i'd sprained my ankle last fall and it hadn't acted up in months and suddenly there was the pain again. i'm wondering if it would have been easier for me if the fins had fit better (ie had straps i could adjust)? here i'm not sure. the first class, then, wasn't the worst thing ever. what i was concerned about at that point was that the instructor seemed to be extremely lousy at answering my questions. either he would act all impatient when i had any or he would pretend they weren't relevant somehow and shrug them off. the second lesson to me was infinitely worse. this time we had BC's to put on. luckily he picked them out for us and we didn't have to go through the nightmare of pretending to know how to size. i was curious about the straps, particularly the velcro abdomen strap which seemed to be too loose or too tight or too bulky no matter how i fiddled with it. so i asked him what i felt to be a straightup question: "so should the strap here be loose or tight? what's better?" he responded: "trust me, it fits." i said "no, i mean, should i be tightening it so it's snug or wearing it more loose?" he repeated in a snappy tone "trust me, it fits it fits it fits it fits" as he actually walked AWAY from me and left the room for a few minutes. i said as he was leaving, "that wasn't even my question." he didn't hear me apparently. behind me i could hear the students muttering to themselves and nervously laughing. according to ken, one of them had said to another, "wow, don't ask HIM any questions." the very first couple minutes of the lecture, the teacher had explicitly said, "i am going to cut off your questions more often than not because you know what? i've heard them all before and i can give you the answer before you even finish. it's quicker that way, it saves time." so here we are in a safety course and the teacher has already established the fact that he's not even going to fully listen to any individual concerns we have; he's going to assume that he knows exactly what we're asking before the full sentence is even out of our mouths and he's going to give us some response of some sort. great. you can see how well it worked with my question above. and you can see the students' reaction to that kind of teaching. he's basically at that point made a student afraid to ask anything for fear of being talked down to. in my case i was just frustrated that he didn't even come close to answering my questions. this is not the only example, but just one of many. he would consistently do this when i asked things. another example had to do again with the fins. i wanted to know if there was a good technique for turning around when we came to the edge of the pool after doing a practice lap. i asked him "what is a good way to turn around?" can you get much simpler than that? so this time he responded with a joke to my straightforward question: "oh, just put on your left turn signal." then he again swam away from me before i could tell him i really was having trouble. this was another pattern with him. it's like he doesn't want to find out someone has more to ask or that he got the question wrong. > Well, except that we didn't ever get to "repeating each manouver 5 > more times." The old manouvers we learned monday were completely in > the past -- even though we hadn't gotten about half of them down at > all yet. this is true. it never even came up. so much for promises. the example of the face-first dive was what ken was really focussing on in his post, and i'm surprised that more people don't have an issue with this. how can an instructor tell us about ten times that it's very important to go slowly down equalizing all the way and that you can injure your eardrum at just FOUR feet depth, and then tell us to go relatively quickly head first to the bottom of a TEN foot pool when equalizing hasn't been practiced? forget whether or not you think it's unsafe for a moment: he's just attempted to scare us about equalizing and he really thinks we're just going to forget that and do this manuever out of the blue with no apprehension? that struck me as odd. now, i had trouble equalizing my ears. that is true. i did not have acute pain. i could just still feel pressure. i've been to the bottom of a ten-foot pool many a time before i even knew (or cared) about equalization and i have never burst my eardrums. i did not have a real fear of injuring my eardrums. it simply pissed me off that when i told him i had trouble he didn't even suggest i practice it. i went down again trying to practice it and it didn't work. it would have been nice to have time to go to a shallower spot and go down slower but again i run into multiple problems: a) not enough time b) i'm wearing a BC and fins, two new pieces of equipment i've never swam with before. i don't even know how to turn around in fins properly. c) i'm holding my breath, which means not enough time UNDERWATER to be mucking around. yeah, we were using snorkels. we had not done regulators yet. i hear that's lesson three and i hear it's a hell of a lot easier to equalize when you aren't worrying about your air supply. so yes, i did the drills. i felt comfortable enough with the safety of my eardrums to do so. but i am not going to be able to dive 30 feet without knowing how to equalize. also, how was the instructor to know i'd be "fine" doing it? my eardrums don't rupture but some people will have, or have had that problem. some people are going to be more intimidated by his teaching style and force themselves to do a drill even if they feel the sharp pain; how is he going to handle that? we just feel that it would have been much better to do it safer and more slowly. and it would have been nice for him to address my concerns. he didn't know how much it hurt or didn't hurt. i never told him. his advice was to "try it again." DANGEROUS (in my mind). someone suggested that we talk with him about this and see if he couldn't go slower or suggest other alternatives. we actually did speak to him after the second class. we mentioned that we felt he was going too fast for us; he replied that his class is the normal pace of a scuba class. we mentioned that we didn't feel comfortable doing many of the manuevers and i specifically mentioned that most of the time i could not follow what he was teaching. he then said that it must be a problem with me because "everyone else was getting it" (how would he really know, the way he teaches?). he then accused ken of "dragging" me into the sport when i didn't really want to do it, asked in a roundabout way if i had a learning disability, and told me he'd seen my problems before and that i was not unique. he could not ever accept that it might just be a clash between his teaching style and my learning style. not once did this even cross his mind. asking whether we should take this course again really to me is more of a rhetorical question. OF COURSE we ain't goin back. i don't feel safe learning from this guy at a SAFETY course! asking whether or not this is a normal way to progress in the class seems to garner few responses, but i'm wondering specifically: how did you learn? was it like this, where you couldn't even absorb the material because it was going so fast? where if you didn't get the manuever or feel very comfortable about it, too bad, time's up, on to more dangerous or complicated techniques? i don't really believe that everyone else in the class "got it" and i didn't; i sensed a degree of discomfort there. i remember one other girl besides me has glasses, and when i mentioned to the guy i couldn't see the hand signals he was demonstrating as we sat there with masks on, she only spoke up after that: "oh by the way i couldn't see you either." do you think she would have spoken up at all? c'mon, you know how students are. they're generally afraid to look like a.ses or incur the teacher's wrath. by the way, any suggestions of more "patient" scuba instruction in the boston area (where we are) is much appreciated. i'll pay any price. that class didn't knock the scuba bug out of me yet. > he could not ever accept that it might just be a clash between his > teaching style and my learning style. not once did this even cross his > mind. > > asking whether we should take this course again really to me is more > of a rhetorical question. OF COURSE we ain't goin back. Ok, you want a warm and fuzzy instructor. Maybe you will find one to suit your taste. Personally, if I "trust my life" to doctor, I have no care at all how warm and fuzzy they are. I want technical excellence. Choosing a scuba instructor was the same for me. I wanted excellence in skills. I didn't care about personality issues. I wanted to dive. Are you sure this is about safety? Or do you just find the guy offensive? i don't feel > safe learning from this guy at a SAFETY course! Making left turns isn't a safety issue. The surface breath hold dives on the second lesson in the pool is exactly what I did. I couldn't equalize until the 3rd lesson on full scuba. My sense is that you just think the guy is an a.shole and you want to learn from someone else. That is ok if that is what you want. Do you feel you need to turn it into a safety issue to validate your reason for not wanting to continue? asking whether or not > this is a normal way to progress in the class seems to garner few > responses, but i'm wondering specifically: how did you learn? I was introduced to skills in 6 lessons. I learned to use the skills in between and after I had those lessons on my own and with my dive buddy. We were encouraged to do things on our own. Questions, some were answered and some were not. We would have blown all the class time if we were allowed to ask every question we wanted to ask. It all became clear as we progressed. Every lesson we learned new things. It was too fast for some and too slow for others depending on the skill of that day. was it > like this, where you couldn't even absorb the material because it was > going so fast? where if you didn't get the manuever or feel very > comfortable about it, too bad, time's up, on to more dangerous or > complicated techniques? Like I said, too fast for some and too slow for others. You already stated you ain't going back. You don't like the guys style. Find someone you like. There is nothing wrong with doing that. You are the one shelling out the dough. > Ok, you want a warm and fuzzy instructor. Maybe you will find one to > suit your taste. if that's what it takes in order for me to understand the material fully enough to at least feel relatively safe and comfortable learning from the person, then yes, i guess that's what i need. i firmly believe that someone who actually answers questions would be adequate though. > Are you sure this is about safety? Or do you just find the guy offensive? i guess it's both. > Making left turns isn't a safety issue. it was an EXAMPLE of a TREND. my god. although i think pulling my muscles trying to awkwardly do some ill-advised turn-around manuever would have kind of sucked, don't you? > The surface breath hold dives on the second lesson in the pool is exactly > what I did. I couldn't equalize until the 3rd lesson on full scuba. thanks. that's the information i was looking for! > My sense is that you just think the guy is an a.shole and you want to learn > from someone else. That is ok if that is what you want. Do you feel you need > to turn it into a safety issue to validate your reason for not wanting to > continue? hah! everyone wants to be some breakthrough psychologist these days. you do understand this is the same guy who would be taking me 30 feet underwater and not just 10, yes? if he won't answer my questions now what makes me think he ever will? and yes, i do think he's an a.shole, and that doesn't help. but he could be a helpful a.shole and that would most likely have worked. it would have been annoying, but i wouldn't have felt so lost. > clear as we progressed. Every lesson we learned new things. It was too > fast for some and too slow for others depending on the skill of that day. did you repeat skills the next lesson at all? >if that's what it takes in order for me to understand the material >fully enough to at least feel relatively safe and comfortable learning >from the person, then yes, i guess that's what i need. i firmly >believe that someone who actually answers questions would be adequate >though. You should have been provided the book well in advance of the class and you should have read the book cover to cover at least once and been able to re-read it for reinforcement before the class work. You are correct to question the instructor's methods. Depending on his age and personal outlook regarding scuba, he may actually believe that it takes pain and toughing it out to get it done. He may have actually learned it that way in the Navy Seals or something and thinks that is what recreational scuba is all about. A scuba instructor either wants his students to learn the material or he wants to fail those that can't handle it the first couple of times in the pool. This is how they do it in the Navy. "Here recruit, this is how you equalize, see? Now dive in there to 20 feet and bring back that 10 pound lead weight! You have 60 seconds." "...you failed! We can't use you. Go back to momma and tell her you weren't good enough. But before you do that, we have a few S-jobs in the Navy for grunts like you before your tour is over." If you are trying to teach safe diving you go out of your way to make sure the students understand the reasons and the methods for doing things safely. Pain while diving is not allowed. Anyone who thinks you should just work through the pain is a hazard to himself and his buddy. Recreational diving is a SPORT not a military assault. If you cannot equalize you should ascend, if you can't equalize by ascending and trying the maneuver again, abort the dive. You should raise your concerns with the instructor privately and see if he will understand and work with your need to know the proper methods and reasons and to feel comfortable in the water and with your skills. Certification means you have practiced your skills a minimum number of times under different conditions to the satisfaction of the instructor and demonstrated to him and to yourself that you can do them. If you are not comfortable you should not be certified. There will always be some anxiety in class and for the first post-certification dives. The first dozen dives or so will be better, but you shouldn't feel rushed to get there. If he can't understand this you should seek a better dive instructor. > If you are trying to teach safe diving you go out of your way to make > sure the students understand the reasons and the methods for doing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cannot equalize you should ascend, if you can't equalize by ascending > and trying the maneuver again, abort the dive. And what if you have a slight cold during your $4,500 liveaboard trip? Do you abort all the dives and sit on your $4,500 boat? Or do you tough out a little pain with the help of six or seven different medications? >>Making left turns isn't a safety issue. > > it was an EXAMPLE of a TREND. my god. although i think pulling my > muscles trying to awkwardly do some ill-advised turn-around manuever > would have kind of sucked, don't you? The big one. Be careful with the adjustable fins too, you can break a nail on the buckle thingies ;-) >>Do you feel you need >>to turn it into a safety issue to validate your reason for not wanting to >>continue? > > hah! everyone wants to be some breakthrough psychologist these days. Ah! Defensive posturing, that means yes:) > you do understand this is the same guy who would be taking me 30 feet > underwater and not just 10, yes? Yes. What would you consider an acceptable body count for 30 years worth of students? if he won't answer my questions now > what makes me think he ever will? Persistance? > and yes, i do think he's an a.shole, and that doesn't help. but he > could be a helpful a.shole and that would most likely have worked. it > would have been annoying, but i wouldn't have felt so lost. Feeling overwhelmed is not unexpected when you are trying to learn alot of new things all at once. You don't sound real comfy in the water and you need to get there to some degree to continue. If you decide to continue, buy the basic stuff like mask, fins, snorkel, and booties at the place you decide to restart your lessons and at least you will have them to practice with. You can even practice clearing a mask in the bathtub at home. The instructor sounds a little arrogant and dismissive from your description, but it would be interesting to also hear his opinion of you. I don't see any big red flags in the safety zone. I do see some mutual irritation between you and this instructor. It sounds like you are fingernails on chalkboard to one another and that doesn't make a conducive learning environment for you. >>clear as we progressed. Every lesson we learned new things. It was too >>fast for some and too slow for others depending on the skill of that day. > > did you repeat skills the next lesson at all? IIRC, 1st lesson was laps in the pool, treading water, etc. We didn't repeat anything from that class. 2nd class was fins, bcd, snorkels and the same surface dive type of exercises, we did mask clears and how to manage leg cramps. 3rd class was finally scuba, regulator clears, repeat of mask clears and addition of mask removal. Class 4,5,6 we repeated mask clears, mask removal, regulator clears, regulator retrieval. New skills were out of air simulations and it was repeated, various ways to tow a buddy, I am sure I forgot alot of what we did, it was some years ago. It seems lessons 4,5,6 involved the most repetition of skills. Actually, I did my OW dives with one of the shop owners I had not ever met, because it was the only weekend I could get off. I experienced the huge difference in my skill level from OW dive #1 to OW dive #4. The certifying instructor was someone I viewed as picky and a bit tough on my newbie skills. The guy had thousands of dives, including "recoveries" in some nasty conditions. Just watching him in the water clued me in to how I *should look* in the water. BTW, judging how some of the other certifying groups in that quarry looked, I realized I had "done good" in choosing the shop I did. One group that was there that Saturday doing their first 2 dives and "messed up" was either told not to return that Sunday to finish dives 4 and 5 or decided on their own they need not return, as a matter of fact. (snip)> and b) having to go through significantly harder and potentially more > physically dangerous drills before i'd be able to actually get the > basics down. What are these physically dangerous drills you refer to? >as ken mentioned, the class was simply too fast-paced to > be able to practice any manuever more than twice. How many people were in this class? What usually happens is that the instructor slowly demonstrates, and then has you do the skill after him/her. For example, partial filling of mask and then emptying it. Usually, an instructor would not move on from you until you had done it correctly, at least once. Perhaps, the instructor would leave you and go on to another student and then come back to you. Was there a DM in the water with you guys, or only the instructor? >because of this i > would not feel comfortable or safe "moving on" to drills that > incorporated multiple manuevers without first being able to know what > i was doing with the individual ones comprising the drills. What multimple manuevers do you refer to? (snip)> > > Right off the bat in lecture he seemed to be going too fast. Buzzing through > > material, with barely any time to write it down There is no question, that you should have had the books first, so that you could read ahead. However, it may have been a bit better to just listen and attempt to absorb, rather than writing everything down. After all, you can't read your notes once you are in the water and you did have the book coming. > it was physically impossible at times for my hand to keep up writing > this stuff down. if we'd had the books the first day and actually been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > talking so fast you can't actually hear individual words clearly > enough to jot them down = problem. Again, it is easier to absorb the spoken material, if you aren't trying to transcribe it all at the same time. > > In the pool, things seemed rushed. Before we had even gotten a chance > > to try on flippers he had started talking to everyone. Before we had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > again. i'm not going to go into details, but i felt he was rather > belligerent. Mask fitting? You mean, like holding the mask to your face and gently sucking in a bit of air to see if there is a reasonably good seal, the right size for your face? >as far as fins go, by the time we were done getting > everything else he was ready to start lecturing and was impatient. we [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > two who did not. when i mentioned this to him he said we'd be fine. > however... At this point, fins are the least of your concerns, and I suspect the least of his as well. > maybe it's just because it was my first time ever using fins but my > feet started cramping up before i'd gotten halfway down the pool > (flutter kicking) in them. in addition i'd sprained my ankle last fall > and it hadn't acted up in months and suddenly there was the pain > again. i'm wondering if it would have been easier for me if the fins > had fit better (ie had straps i could adjust)? here i'm not sure. I'm sure that had they fit better, that would have been some help. Have you snorkelled with fins before? > the first class, then, wasn't the worst thing ever. what i was > concerned about at that point was that the instructor seemed to be > extremely lousy at answering my questions. either he would act all > impatient when i had any or he would pretend they weren't relevant > somehow and shrug them off. He had a number of students in his class and only a limited amount of time to get the students all of the first class info out, and then pool time, which is important to all. If the instructor spent 15 minutes explaining every minute detail individually to each student, then he would run out of pool time. I remember my first lessons and because there was so much commotion and so much gear that was unfamiliar to me, it all seemed a bit discombobulating at first. But it came together. > the second lesson to me was infinitely worse. this time we had BC's > to put on. luckily he picked them out for us and we didn't have to go [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > was leaving, "that wasn't even my question." he didn't hear me > apparently. Your BCD doesn't need to fit you like a new shirt. If you are a medium and you have on a medium BCD, then you probably want the velcro cumberbund to do up, not snug but not loose. Just so's it's laying on you. When the BCD fills with air, it will feel tighter, so you don't want it too tight in the first place. Also, at depth, you can tighten it up further, once you are more comfortable in the water. My BCD, has the velcro cumberbund and one little strap across the front. The front strap, is always very loose. It doesn't need to be tight on my BCD. The cumberbunds can usually be adjusted (while on the surface) to get a better fit. It is unfortunate that he didn't have the time to show you this. However, you should have been able to play with it after the class. Or you could go into the shop at some other time and have one of the shop monkeys show you how they can be adjusted on a variety of different BCs. > behind me i could hear the students muttering to themselves and > nervously laughing. according to ken, one of them had said to another, > "wow, don't ask HIM any questions." Who knows? Everyone has a bad day. Maybe he was hungover or had a fight with his wife. > the very first couple minutes of the lecture, the teacher had > explicitly said, "i am going to cut off your questions more often than > not because you know what? i've heard them all before and i can give > you the answer before you even finish. it's quicker that way, it saves > time." He's probably right about having heard all of the questions before, though he may not have been correctly anticipating each individual question. > so here we are in a safety course and the teacher has already > established the fact that he's not even going to fully listen to any [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > but just one of many. he would consistently do this when i asked > things. How many questions were you asking? > another example had to do again with the fins. i wanted to know if > there was a good technique for turning around when we came to the edge [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with him. it's like he doesn't want to find out someone has more to > ask or that he got the question wrong. Frankly, I'm not sure what's the best way to turn around at the end of the pool either, but this won't be an issue in OW. There is no end of the pool. Just turn around how ever you can. It is not necessary to be graceful at this stage. Just push yourself off with your hands if you want to. > > Well, except that we didn't ever get to "repeating each manouver 5 > > more times." The old manouvers we learned monday were completely in [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > regulators yet. i hear that's lesson three and i hear it's a hell of a > lot easier to equalize when you aren't worrying about your air supply. I had been a bit confused earlier about why he would be having you go down fast, head first, but I now see that you were snorkelling and not on scuba. I have a hard time equalizing when snorkelling too, but it is much easier on scuba, because I have an air supply. > so yes, i did the drills. i felt comfortable enough with the safety of > my eardrums to do so. but i am not going to be able to dive 30 feet [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > in a roundabout way if i had a learning disability, and told me he'd > seen my problems before and that i was not unique. He does sound a bit grumpy. :^) But then again, maybe you were peppering him with so many questions, he was having trouble delivering the info he wanted you to have. > he could not ever accept that it might just be a clash between his > teaching style and my learning style. not once did this even cross his > mind. Well, he is a scuba instructor, not a trained college professor. > asking whether we should take this course again really to me is more > of a rhetorical question. OF COURSE we ain't goin back. i don't feel [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > like this, where you couldn't even absorb the material because it was > going so fast? The first couple of classes seemed fast, once we were at the pool portion but not when we were in the classroom. >where if you didn't get the manuever or feel very > comfortable about it, too bad, time's up, on to more dangerous or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > would have spoken up at all? c'mon, you know how students are. they're > generally afraid to look like a.ses or incur the teacher's wrath. Well, it certainly isn't his fault that she didn't speak up earlier. I had a similar problem, so I took it upon myself to make it known and then got closer to the instructor. That worked out fine. > by the way, any suggestions of more "patient" scuba instruction in the > boston area (where we are) is much appreciated. i'll pay any price. > that class didn't knock the scuba bug out of me yet. Glad to hear that. Now that you have your book, read it and absorb it. Perhaps if you aren't so concerned about the spoken material, you'll be able to be more comfortable during the skills portion. > What are these physically dangerous drills you refer to? to be honest i'm just extrapolating. i have no idea what he would have had us do next. that's why i said "potentially." but like the person above berated me about, "scuba is a dangerous 'sport'." > Was there a DM in the water with you guys, or only the instructor? DM? he had an assistant who had taken his course before. i felt more comfortable asking that guy questions and he seemed more open to helping me. but still there just wasn't the time. > What multimple manuevers do you refer to? well, the little headfirst dive ken referred to in his post involves a) BC deflation; b) headfirst dive technique (trust me, i sucked at this, so don't go telling me it's easy enough); c)mask equalization; d) ear equalization; e) shallow ascent technique? (where you spin around to the left and have your right hand up?); f) snorkel clearing (the peashooting technique); and g) quick inflation of the BC via mouth while h) flutter kicking with fins to descend and ascend and keep afloat. all in all something i could certainly master in about 30 minutes' practice. the ear equalization was the hardest part. i mean, i could get there. i was just concerned that we were moving so fast when doing things that could potentially harm our ears. it's a lot to absorb when you think about it! especially since we hadn't gotten the book or anything until that lecture, so we hadn't had a chance to read it. > Again, it is easier to absorb the spoken material, if you aren't trying to > transcribe it all at the same time. perhaps, but he was asking us to write some of the stuff down. the dude just talks too fast. i tried to absorb what i could at the pool but for me it's a lot harder to understand something without having the appropriate material to read and digest. by the way, the lecture material was mainly about the equipment to buy, not dive safety, so it doesn't apply much to the pool exercises. there were a few tidbits in there that were revisited in drill form later. > Mask fitting? You mean, like holding the mask to your face and gently > sucking in a bit of air to see if there is a reasonably good seal, the right > size for your face? it may sound stupid, but i'm that much of a newbie. i have never used mask, fins, or snorkel. ever. > I'm sure that had they fit better, that would have been some help. Have you > snorkelled with fins before? see above-- nope. totally unaccustomed! so yeah, next time i'll try to go with the straps when we're choosing fins. i just wish i had known that when i was choosing them! of course i might just end up needing some sort of strength training if it doesn't improve :( > He had a number of students in his class and only a limited amount of time > to get the students all of the first class info out, and then pool time, yeah, i do understand about the time constraints, and it seems like it is that way for everyone the first couple times. but i was really getting a bad vibe about the way he was teaching us. i was trying hard to buck up and just pay attention and give it a shot, but i just really felt adrift (no pun intended) during these exercises. > Your BCD doesn't need to fit you like a new shirt. <snip> > It is unfortunate that he didn't have the time to show you this. However, > you should have been able to play with it after the class. thanks. all good things to know. i was just curious. i found his reaction rather surprising. he could have been in a bad mood but there was no sign of this before or after. so unless he was fighting with his wife over BCs... i think this is just the way he is. i should mention that he did explain how to fit the vests later. just that reaction to my question was an example of what i felt was the standard. > How many questions were you asking? haha. well, not a ton. but significantly more than the others. again, you can't really say whether that's because they knew what they were doing from previous experience (some had snorkeled before and ken had scuba'ed), whether they simply felt more comfortable with the pace, or they were too meek to speak up. > Frankly, I'm not sure what's the best way to turn around at the end of the > pool either, but this won't be an issue in OW. There is no end of the pool. hah. true. the fins were about five minutes new on my feet though, and i thought i might as well try asking :) > I had been a bit confused earlier about why he would be having you go down > fast, head first, but I now see that you were snorkelling and not on scuba. so it is normal to practice this with a snorkel first? it seems infinitely harder and more discouraging and scary. > He does sound a bit grumpy. :^) But then again, maybe you were peppering > him with so many questions, he was having trouble delivering the info he > wanted you to have. no, seriously, he just didn't seem to want to answer ANYTHING i asked. > > he could not ever accept that it might just be a clash between his > > teaching style and my learning style. not once did this even cross his <snip> > Well, he is a scuba instructor, not a trained college professor. but he's been teaching "FOR THIRTY YEARS"! > > there. i remember one other girl besides me has glasses, and when i > > mentioned to the guy i couldn't see the hand signals he was > > demonstrating as we sat there with masks on, she only spoke up after > > that: "oh by the way i couldn't see you either." do you think she <snip> > Well, it certainly isn't his fault that she didn't speak up earlier. I had well i know, i was just trying to posit the idea that maybe the others weren't "getting it" as well as one might assume. some people don't ask questions when they don't understand. the way some people react, i can almost see why. but when i'm engaging in a "dangerous 'sport'" i don't like not knowing what's going on and not understanding what i'm doing and why. i think it makes sense! thanks for your pointers. the book looks awesome, so i'll be sure to read it. :) I'm returning to the sport after 15 years hiatus and while I was active back then I was an SSI certified Dive Control Specialist or DiveCon, which is a combination of Divemaster and Assistant Instructor. From what you have said and Ken's previous posts it appears to me that a change of instructor would definitely merit consideration. Perhaps it's not an accident that he has the lowest student/instructor ratio of anyone around, as Ken mentioned. Your present guy may be a knowledgable diver but different people have different learning styles and one of the instructional skills that he seems to be missing is the ability to recognize the student's learning styles and adapt to them. When I'm in front of a class, it's my job to make it understandable to the students, not the student's job to try to figure out what I'm saying. Neither of you has mentioned anything about him having any assistants with him the pool which alone gives me pause. Generally when I was active and we had a class in the pool sessions, we'd have perhaps 8 students and usually 2 or even 4 assistants working with the instructor. In addition to serving as safety divers (which is a major reason we were there, even in the pool sessions) our jobs were to demonstrate the skills as the instructor explained them and to work individually with people such as yourselves who had run into snags such as poorly fitted equipment or problems equalizing. With many students there's some psychological hurdles to overcome in the new environment of scuba - after all it's very unnatural to breath with your face covered in water and goes against a lifetime experience of what's "right" - and a certain level of "Don't worry about it, you'll get the hang of it with some practice" is in order. But such reassurance should be given in a manner that is actually reassuring and not sending the message instead that the student's problems or concerns aren't valid. The head first surface dive is a bit of a problem in that there are conflicting factors involved. On the one hand, your understanding about the importance of equalizing is spot on - the last thing you want is a ruptured ear drum before you ever get to open water and it can happen in the pool. Your instructor was correct when he said descend slowly equalizing all the way. What it sounds like he didn't say is that this is much easier to do on scuba than it is snorkling because scuba gives you lots of air to do it with and you can control your rate of descent, Going down feet first is also a big help. Surface diving when snorkeling you don't have that luxury - you need to get your head pointed down and your feet up out of the water in order to get their weight behind you so you can get going down. So the solution is to equalize gently on the surface, holding your nose and blowing very gently to put a litle bit of positive pressure in your ears from the inside to make those first few feet easier. Believe it or not, as your eustachaean tubes get used to being exercised it gets easier so you can even practice a bit in front of the TV, putting a little pressure in and then the "valsalva" swallowing or jaw wiggling to release it. You said you had "flippers" that were'nt adjustable???? Sound like you grabbed a pair of full-foot fins - fine for warm water snorkeling but they do need to be the right size, just like a pair of shoes. Regular fins are more forgiving in the foot pocket sizes, more or less, because they're usually worn with boots. But full foots are more problematic to fit correctly. And it sounds like the others had regular fins with heelstraps but you didn't mention anything about them also having booties. Ouch! That would hurt as bad as improper fitting full-foots. Again, back when I was assisting we'd usually tell new students to hold off on buying equipment until after the first class but they would be required to own their own mask, boots, fins, snorkel, and gloves by the second pool session. Classes were once a week so that gave them the chance to get the lecture on equipment selection and then a week to make it in to purchase their own. Of course there are those that would say that's just the dive shop trying to make money and there's a certain truth to that, everyone's in business to make a profit. But equally as important it gave us the chance to work with the students one-on-one when they came into the shop, helping them select the personal gear that would serve their individual needs the best, and most importantly, helping them make sure they got gear that actually fit properly and that they knew how to adjust it and properly care for it so that struggling with poor-fitting or broken equipment didn't interfere with the learning process. And that's not marketing hype - well run shops will do that because a shop that sells a student just any old mask or sells them big-ticket high-fashion gear that doesn't fit right instead of more moderately priced equipment that's properly matched to the student's needs loses a customer in the long run. People that have been around a while know that not spending the time with the customer to make sure the gear they buy is a good match is very short sighted and expensive. Another benefit of owning your own - silicone mask skirts actually "flow" a little with use - if you have your own and you are the only one using it, it actually will fit a bit better after a little use. Getting used to your own equipment's idiosyncracies in the pool also means you'll be a lot more comfortable with it in your open water sessions. As an FYI we never had students doing laps during a class. Supervised practice time yes and I suppose practice up and down the pool to work on your kicks would count as "laps" but not otherwise. The shop I was at had their own pool for classes and students were encouraged to come in at no charge whenever the pool wasn't otherwise in use by a class to do laps if they felt the need for conditioning, to practice, etc or even just to play in the water if they wished. just my $0.02 Steve House > hello, > [quoted text clipped - 197 lines] > boston area (where we are) is much appreciated. i'll pay any price. > that class didn't knock the scuba bug out of me yet. > I'm returning to the sport after 15 years hiatus and while I was active back > then I was an SSI certified Dive Control Specialist or DiveCon, which is a Is a "dive control specialist" in charge of the coffee machine on the boat? I can see why one may not want to trust a dive master with such responsibility, especially if Jammer Six is aboard. <snip> > just my $0.02 > > Steve House Dennis SignatureThermonuclear War. It's the -responsible- environmental alternative Popeye <snip> Hey I didn't pick the name, blame SSI - they don't have divemaster or assistant instructor certifications as such but combined the two functions into one cert they called DiveCon. Steve House > > I'm returning to the sport after 15 years hiatus and while I was active > back [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Dennis > Neither of you has mentioned anything about him having any assistants with > him the pool which alone gives me pause. what agency does he certify, and what was the student / teacher ratio? seems to me 4-6 was about what the lds used. These were classes for both SSI and PADI. In either case there were no more than 10 students per instructor and always 2 to 4 DMs or assistants per instructor. While the training standards only make assistants mandatory for the open water classes, the instructors I've personally worked with had the same assistants work with the class in the pool sessions as well. Steve > > Neither of you has mentioned anything about him having any assistants with > > him the pool which alone gives me pause. > > what agency does he certify, and what was the student / teacher ratio? > > seems to me 4-6 was about what the lds used. > When I'm in front of a class, it's my job to make it > understandable to the students, not the student's job to try to figure out > what I'm saying. i think it's a little of both, but yeah. i know nothing about the sport. he knows "everything." the onus might be a bit more on him there. :) > Neither of you has mentioned anything about him having any assistants with > him the pool which alone gives me pause. oh yeah, i did (somewhere...)! he had one. just one. there were seven of us. that's not horrible, because he would take half of the group and the assistant would take the other. if you couldn't already guess, i had a better and more productive time learning pool exercises from the assistant. that poor guy ended up getting all the questions the instructor had blown off and he was pretty patient about it. so it wasn't a complete wash. but still, the way the course was paced i just never got truly comfortable. it seems from what people have said that by the end you "get it" so maybe the pace wasn't as big as a deal as i was thinking, but it's not like anyone was rushing to put us at ease on that count. > With many students there's some psychological hurdles to overcome in the new > environment of scuba - after all it's very unnatural to breath with your > face covered in water and goes against a lifetime experience of what's > "right" i definitely had some apprehensions and hesitant feelings in the first course. i've never even snorkeled so this was pretty new to me. by the second class i wasn't as scared, just more frustrated. > the solution is to equalize gently on the surface, holding your nose and > blowing very gently to put a litle bit of positive pressure in your ears > from the inside to make those first few feet easier. Believe it or not, as > your eustachaean tubes get used to being exercised it gets easier so you can > even practice a bit in front of the TV, putting a little pressure in and > then the "valsalva" swallowing or jaw wiggling to release it. he mentioned equalizing first on the surface at the pool and when i talked to him afterwards, and i tried it, but once i got in the water it would never work. i tried all three methods of equalizing (blowing while holding the nose and moving the jaw and swallowing) and they never really worked for me in or out of water. ken's since found that apparently holding the nose while swallowing is another method, and it works for me out of the water. some people have said here that it may not work in the water, so what it really seems i need is practice equalizing on my own until i find a good reliable method. > You said you had "flippers" that were'nt adjustable???? Sound like you > grabbed a pair of full-foot fins - fine for warm water snorkeling but they > do need to be the right size, just like a pair of shoes. these weren't ones i bought or anything; the instructor brought a huge pile of them and plunked them down but never gave any pointers as to which to choose. or if he did, i was too busy trying to figure out the mask fitting and missed it. the good thing about this class was that you didn't have to purchase your own mask, fins and snorkel because they were provided; you just had to pick them out in the beginning and i made a bad newbie choice. there was so much pain involved in the flutter kick right from the get-go, though, that at the time i was seriously reconsidering whether i would be able to handle this at all. i was hoping the fins had something to do with it. and then of course the most annoying bit is that when you're stretching a foot cramp while floating in a BC, you apparently end up flipping over onto your face. or i did. :P > And it sounds like the others had regular fins with heelstraps > but you didn't mention anything about them also having booties. Ouch! oh, he had us bring socks to wear. he was actually very conscientious about telling us which equipment to buy. he went into great detail concerning this and spent much of the lecture talking about equipment. > As an FYI we never had students doing laps during a class. Supervised > practice time yes and I suppose practice up and down the pool to work on > your kicks would count as "laps" but not otherwise. yup, just practice up and down is all i meant by "laps." :) but that was enough to cause me physical pain :( > The shop I was at had their own pool for classes and students were encouraged > to come in at no charge whenever the pool wasn't otherwise in use by a class see, that would be sweet. i do belong to the y so it's not beyond the realm of possibility to be able to do that myself. happily, we've found a course around here that apparently will allow you to do any lesson (be it the first, second, last, etc depending on where you are in the course) on the nights they do the pool exercises. you can repeat lessons as many times as you want or need DURING the course, or you can take two in one night if you're a fast learner. this seems more like what i am going to need, rather than having to go through the whole course and get frustrated and only then get extra attention. we still have to check it out, but i'm hopeful :) thanks for the advice and info! > there was so much pain involved in the flutter kick right from the > get-go, though, that at the time i was seriously reconsidering whether > i would be able to handle this at all. i was hoping the fins had > something to do with it. and then of course the most annoying bit is > that when you're stretching a foot cramp while floating in a BC, you > apparently end up flipping over onto your face. or i did. :P When you were kicking, did you do a full length leg kick? In other words, scissoring your complete legs, no bent knee? Or were you trying to flip your fins using your ankles? (snip)> > see, that would be sweet. i do belong to the y so it's not beyond the > realm of possibility to be able to do that myself. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > thanks for the advice and info! Looks like that will be a much better option for you. Enjoy. > these weren't ones i bought or anything; the instructor brought a huge > pile of them and plunked them down but never gave any pointers as to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that when you're stretching a foot cramp while floating in a BC, you > apparently end up flipping over onto your face. or i did. :P I would get your own mask, fins, snorkel. I wonder why you have "so much pain" when you are kicking, that is just wrong. Perhaps your kicking technique is poor. Try kicking from the hips and not the knees or ankles if you are using basic fins as someone has already suggested. Sports like running, cycling, using stair stepping machines, anything like that will help you develop some leg strength. Split fins and those weird looking Force Fins are easier to kick for people with bad knees and not so great lower body strength, they are more expensive than basic fins however. Try different kinds in the pool and see if it makes a difference. Find a shop with a pool to demo them in or borrow some off of someone. You might want to start a bit of a "work out" routine. Carrying 60 pounds of equipment sucks when you don't have the strength to do it. Just climbing the ladder up into a boat with 7 mil suit, lead weight, tank, bcd, regs is going to be a challenge when you don't have some strength to do all that. BTW, you can remove the lead and hand that off to someone on the boat before you climb up the ladder. > happily, we've found a course around here that apparently will allow > you to do any lesson (be it the first, second, last, etc depending on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > through the whole course and get frustrated and only then get extra > attention. we still have to check it out, but i'm hopeful :) Good luck in your pursuit. What was it that led you to want to scuba? For me it was a "Discover scuba" in the tropics. Now I can't pass a body of water without wondering "what's in there?" :) > and more importantly, if this guy is already helping to make the > classes a nightmare for me due to his teaching style, what makes > anyone think i'm going to suffer through the course with him only to > be rewarded by getting ONE-ON-ONE time with him? ugh. no thanks. Regardless of the merits of your opinions about the instructor or the course, it seems clear that you will benefit from going elsewhere. > it was physically impossible at times for my hand to keep up writing > this stuff down. It would never even occur to me to have taken notes during my OW class unless I wanted something to interfere with paying attention. If you're at all intelligent an OW course is unlikely to expose you to anything that actually requires study. Sure, you'll need to devote some practice to dive tables to learn to run through them properly (before abandoning them in favor of a dive computer), but that's essentially a mechanical process. The actual knowledge presented in an OW course is not only fairly simple and straightforward, much of it is probably a rehash of stuff you've been exposed to before, though you may not have been interested during high school chemistry when the context was different. if we'd had the books the first day and actually been > assigned chapters to read, it would have perhaps been easier for me to > filter what needed to be written down and what was already in the book > for me to read. It's *all* in the book. The instructor's biggest classroom role is to say things differently in case you have any trouble understanding anything you read. The only thing you should consider writing down is a quick note about anything you want to review or questions you want to ask. A lot of the questions may be answered by the material a few minte slater, so don't ask questions every time you think you don't understand 100%. IMHO, not supplying the books before the class started is a really piss poor way to begin things. Before you start a class with another instructor read the book completely and don't wa |
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