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Scuba Forum / General / August 2004tank valve question ?
I've noticed a lot of DIN valves on the HP steel tanks, is this valve considered standard on these tanks ? Also, are the threads such on these tanks where if I bought a used steel with the DIN valve I could replace with a K valve ? I'm looking for a larger air supply but the aluminum 100's seem to big and heavy, thanks for any comments or suggestions. Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL > I've noticed a lot of DIN valves on the HP steel tanks, is this valve > considered standard on these tanks ? Also, are the threads such on these [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL High pressure tanks have DIN valves because clamp on yoke valves are unreliable at high pressure. I have seen o-rings between the valve and yoke forced out during filling at a low as 3400 psi. Because the o-ring is captured in a DIN valve they can operate at much higher pressure with little danger of o-ring extrusion. As to the question of thread size; high pressure tanks have a different (smaller) thread size. If you want to go with high pressure tanks have your regulators changed over to DIN. Most regulators on the market can be purchased either way or changed over quite easily. If you still want to use your regulators with yoke style valves (vacations in the tropics) get an adapter. Do not try to use an adapter to go from a DIN valve to a regulator with a yoke. This is unsafe.  SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters >If you want to go with high pressure tanks have your regulators changed over >to DIN. Most regulators on the market can be purchased either way or >changed over quite easily. If you still want to use your regulators with >yoke style valves (vacations in the tropics) get an adapter. For many regulators, the changeover from DIN to yoke is very easy. Parts may cost $35-50. Once you've made the switch once, you can do it again, either way, without tools in about 1 minute or less. At least this is true for my US Divers (now Aqualung) regs. This is just as easy as using an adapter, plus it is safer and works better. (Adapters position the regulator farther from the valve, which can be awkward.) SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >>If you want to go with high pressure tanks have your regulators changed over >>to DIN. Most regulators on the market can be purchased either way or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > works better. (Adapters position the regulator farther from the > valve, which can be awkward.) Yeah, forgot they've got a yoke thingie now that screws directly onto the male din. I still swap out the whole fitting. "Cpt. Dale Bennett" <captndale@comcast.net> wrote in message If you still want to use your regulators with > yoke style valves (vacations in the tropics) get an adapter. Do not try to > use an adapter to go from a DIN valve to a regulator with a yoke. This is > unsafe. I think I've seen the adapter being used on the tank, I understand how that would not prevent o-ring extrusion from the extra pressure on that same K valve fitting. The other adapter your referring to is used on the regulator ? I dont know if i want to fuss with adapting the regulator on the same trip. My other two valves are std. K valves. If I was starting fresh I would have gon din all the way but now i'm lookin at a mix and match type thing. Any thoughts on a 90 cf PST steel tank with a K valve that can be filled to 3450 ? I'm ready to drop the 325.00 4 lbs less buoyant than aluminum when empty also the same weight as aluminum 80 and a hell of a lot lighter than the aluminum 100. Kevin >I think I've seen the adapter being used on the tank, I understand how that >would not prevent o-ring extrusion from the extra pressure on that same >K valve fitting. The other adapter your referring to is used on the regulator ? I've been using the PST 100's with yoke every weekend since Mar'03. The O-ring extrusion problem is a fantasy. Tank filling is not precise, the highest mine have been with a yoke is just under 3900, but normally 3500. Every weekend (just about), and that's times 2 divers. A-Clamp or DIN, the PST-100 is Cadillac tank. They cost too much unless you dive a lot though. Same weight, slightly smaller and almost 50% more air than AL80 is hard to beat. One less expensive alternative if you can find them is a Faber LP 80. They are lighter and smaller than AL80 or PST100 and if your shop will fill them to 3K(there is absolutely no reason not too), they hold about 85 cuFt. At 2640 they are actually about 76 cuFt, or roughly the same as an AL80(77.4). I got mine in 2000 for $200 apiece with valves. They are exactly the same diameter as standard tanks. safe diving, bullshark > I think I've seen the adapter being used on the tank, I understand how that > would not prevent o-ring extrusion from the extra pressure on that same [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Kevin There are adapters made to go from DIN valves on tanks to Yoke attachments. They are intended to be used for filling where the fill whip is fitted with a yoke attachment. They are relatively safe to use for this purpose. If the o-ring is extruded during filling all that happens is lost air (and perhaps lost hearing). If, however you use such a fitting to attach a yoke style regulator the length of the assembly and its complexity is increased substantially. It becomes quite easy to either unscrew the DIN connection or put enough pressure on the Yoke to unseat the o-ring. Either will result in a rapid loss of gas. Yoke adapters that screw on to DIN regulators to allow them to be attached to yoke style K valves are readily available and can be attached in seconds. They are safe and easy to use. Personally, I prefer to have regulators that are configured for the tanks I am using. At home I use DIN valves for my back gas and Yokes for stage/deco bottles. I have one regulator that I keep just for traveling that has a Yoke connection. I also have the parts to change my regs back and forth if and when needed. I realize that this is a bit much for most people, so my recommendation would be to have your regulator configured with a DIN connector and carry a yoke adapter. SignatureSafe diving, Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters > There are adapters made to go from DIN valves on tanks to Yoke attachments. > They are intended to be used for filling where the fill whip is fitted with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > or put enough pressure on the Yoke to unseat the o-ring. Either will result > in a rapid loss of gas. AFAIK, almost all valves in Europe are of that kind, that is: with adapter fitted, as yoke and din connector are as popular over here. It's therefor also quite common in dive centers that the din adapter is removed/screwed in. I haven't heard of any of them becoming unintentionally unscrewed accident or of the O-ring being unseated. > Yoke adapters that screw on to DIN regulators to allow them to be attached > to yoke style K valves are readily available and can be attached in seconds. > They are safe and easy to use. I would say that in my experience both methods are as safe. > Personally, I prefer to have regulators that are configured for the tanks I > am using. At home I use DIN valves for my back gas and Yokes for stage/deco [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > recommendation would be to have your regulator configured with a DIN > connector and carry a yoke adapter. SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply >> There are adapters made to go from DIN valves on tanks to Yoke attachments. >> They are intended to be used for filling where the fill whip is fitted with [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > removed/screwed in. I haven't heard of any of them becoming > unintentionally unscrewed accident or of the O-ring being unseated. Maybe some confusion here between fill adapters, which are unsuitable for underwater use, and the plug used to convert a short (but not long) din to A-clamp (yoke). >>> There are adapters made to go from DIN valves on tanks to Yoke attachments. >>> They are intended to be used for filling where the fill whip is fitted with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for underwater use, and the plug used to convert a short (but not long) > din to A-clamp (yoke). The common think is the plug, plugging a 300 bar tank (long screw) with a yoke plug, isn't wise. The short DIN fittings goes up to 232 bars and can be plugged to ge used with yoke fittings, the yoke thing isn't strong enought for 300 bar so you shouldn't use that on a 300 bar bottle. (Converting bars to psi is left as an exersice for the reader.) / Balp Signaturehttp://anders.arnholm.nu/ Keep on Balping > I've noticed a lot of DIN valves on the HP steel tanks, is this valve > considered standard on these tanks ? Also, are the threads such on these [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL HP steel tanks suck. If one wants volume, I would suggest going with a LP (2640psi) chromoly steel cylinder (made by Faber for OMS et.al) in the 98cf range, up to 131cf. DIN valves are the best. 232 BAR DIN valves are better than 300 BAR DIN valves for a few simple reasons. A 232 BAR DIN valve accepts a "yoke conversion" screw-in assembly, which means the diver can utilize either DIN or yoke 1st stage fittings. Secondly, a 232 BAR DIN has fewer threads than a 300 BAR DIN and therefore one takes less time screwing their 1st stages in/out etc. Screw time takes away from valuable dive time! ;-) -- Randy F. Milak ~Most rec.scubans are only one screw shy of the final assembly!~ > HP steel tanks suck. If one wants volume, I would suggest going with a LP > (2640psi) chromoly steel cylinder (made by Faber for OMS et.al) in the 98cf range, > up to 131cf. High pressure steel tanks are the greatest invention since water. Avoid LP steels as they are heavy, clumsy, an oddball diameter, and have zero resale value. > DIN valves are the best. Yup. > 232 BAR DIN valves are better than 300 BAR DIN valves > for a few simple reasons. A 232 BAR DIN valve accepts a "yoke conversion" > screw-in assembly, which means the diver can utilize either DIN or yoke 1st stage > fittings. Secondly, a 232 BAR DIN has fewer threads than a 300 BAR DIN and > therefore one takes less time screwing their 1st stages in/out etc. Screw time > takes away from valuable dive time! ;-) Avoid those screw-in thingies. Get the 300 bar and carry a yoke for yer 1st stage, along with box and allen wrenches to make the conversion (a 90-second job) if ya find yerself in some third world country. BTW, din valves are more easily damaged if dropped, and ya do have to keep the threads and o-ring seat clean. thanks for the input, little tired to absorb all the adapter stuff, will study a bit later. Curtis, the 120's are a bit more than I really think I would ever need. I'm looking for a little more capacity without going to a much larger bulkier tank and HP seemed the way to go. I saw a PST 90 with I believe a 3400 fill rating that had a K valve on it, this was a divers direct. I picked this 90 up and it was much lighter and smaller than the aluminum, although the aluminum was a 100. it actually felt lighter than the aluminum 80 and dimensionally it was the same or smaller. I'm not sure I want to screw around with adapters, it seems to make sense to go with one with a K valve. The tank I looked at was 325.00 that's the tough part as it will be my third tank. Kevin Falconer Fort Myers, FL "Kevin Falconer" wrote. > Curtis, the 120's are a bit more than I really > think > I would ever need. I'm looking for a little more capacity without > going to a much larger bulkier tank and HP seemed the way to go. They're same diameter as an AL 80, 3 inches taller, 4 lbs less bouyant when empty, not "too" much heavier than AL80s, 55% more gas. The adapter amounts to a small piece that screws into the din fitting with an allen key, can be left in, the valve then looke pretty much like a regular yoke. The "H" valve allows for 2 first stages, or can be removed and plugged to make it a "standard" valve. 03/03 Hydro, 05/04 Vip, asking $300 for the pair, L & R valves. Will deliver within reason. Just don't fit my style of diving, I'm adding another set of dub AL80s to the arsenal instead. They've been used as loaners far more often than as mine. Curtis > "Kevin Falconer" wrote. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 03/03 Hydro, 05/04 Vip, asking $300 for the pair, L & R valves. Will > deliver within reason. That's a pretty good price. > "Kevin Falconer" wrote. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > to the arsenal instead. They've been used as loaners far more often than as > mine. SOLD! Willing to deliver to a local bar/retsaurant after yer dive on Sunday??? Dave. > SOLD! > Willing to deliver to a local bar/retsaurant after yer dive on Sunday??? I do believe we can make that arrangement.......I wonder what kind of vis I'll have in my street this weekend, might be my only diving opportunity thanks to damn Charley. Wonder if I can get Popeye interested in that, it's a tough dive.......shallow, heavy current, lots of debris & a siphon. :-) Curtis > > SOLD! > > Willing to deliver to a local bar/retsaurant after yer dive on Sunday??? > > I do believe we can make that arrangement.......I wonder what kind of > vis I'll have in my street this weekend, might be my only diving opportunity > thanks to damn Charley. Been trying to get you on yer cell. Give me a call if we haven't spoken before you see this. Dave. > Screw time > takes away from valuable dive time! ;-) You have strange priorities. ;-) Curtis >Screw time takes away from valuable dive time! ;-) That's backwards. But we're not complaining too much. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ I'm looking for a larger air supply but the aluminum 100's seem > to big and heavy, thanks for any comments or suggestions. You could try making me an offer on a pair of HP 120s with Din / K "H" valves...... Curtis > I'm looking for a larger air supply but the aluminum 100's seem > > to big and heavy, thanks for any comments or suggestions. > > You could try making me an offer on a pair of HP 120s with Din / K "H" > valves...... Is it too late to offer dinner, drinks and dancing girls? ;0) C U at the weekend! Dave. >I've noticed a lot of DIN valves on the HP steel tanks, is this valve >considered standard on these tanks ? Also, are the threads such on these >tanks where if I bought a used steel with the DIN valve I could replace with >a K valve ? I'm looking for a larger air supply but the aluminum 100's seem >to big and heavy, thanks for any comments or suggestions. Maybe. The old PST, Genesis, and Asahi cylinders had a 7/8 machine thread, and can not be converted to yoke. They were equipped with a 300-bar 7-thread DIN. These cylinders were rated to 3500psi. The new PST E series cylinders come with a convertible 232-bar 5-thread DIN, and include a screw-in yoke adapter, so they can be used with any modern regulator. They are rated to 3442psi. Unfortunately, PST tanks are getting to be as hard to find as Bigfoot and Elvis, and most likely any used PST HP cylinders you find will be the old 3500psi models. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ > Unfortunately, PST tanks are getting to be as hard to find as Bigfoot > and Elvis, and most likely any used PST HP cylinders you find will be > the old 3500psi models. New PST HPs are readily available in SoFla. But yer right about used, they are likely to be the old style. >> Unfortunately, PST tanks are getting to be as hard to find as Bigfoot >> and Elvis, and most likely any used PST HP cylinders you find will be >> the old 3500psi models. > >New PST HPs are readily available in SoFla. But yer right about used, >they are likely to be the old style. LDS got one set of 130s last month, said it'll be December at the earliest before he can get more, and possibly not then. Sport Chalet appears to have dropped PST in favor of Norris (and all they have is 3000psi 80s). --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ >>> Unfortunately, PST tanks are getting to be as hard to find as Bigfoot >>> and Elvis, and most likely any used PST HP cylinders you find will be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Sport Chalet appears to have dropped PST in favor of Norris (and all > they have is 3000psi 80s). What's a Norris? > >>> Unfortunately, PST tanks are getting to be as hard to find as Bigfoot > >>> and Elvis, and most likely any used PST HP cylinders you find will be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > What's a Norris? It's when ya pull a guy's undies up past his waist, close to his armpits, then do a fake roundhouse kick to the side of his head. That's a Norris! Dave. >> Sport Chalet appears to have dropped PST in favor of Norris (and all >> they have is 3000psi 80s). > >What's a Norris? Norris/Kaiser used to make aluminum cylinders back in the "bad alloy days". They are apparently gearing up for steel's here at the Fontana Kaiser/California Steel plant, now that PST is backing away from Scuba. The tank that Chalet now has is a DOT3AA2750 80cf with a plus rating, making it effectively a 3000psi 80. Hydro date 02/04 It weighs more than my HP120s. It's a beast. I think it's heavier than a Heisler. Of course, that means it'll last forever and take a good cave fill... unless it's cheap steel. They still have a few 10/02 hydro PST 72's, but these are DOT3AA3000, meaning they're 72's at 3300 (and they call them "LP72"). Good luck at getting a boat to fill them to more than 2640. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ |
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