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Scuba Forum / General / October 2003Scuba Death
My daughter's friend recently died in a Scuba accident. I would like to get information from an (medical?) expert on the possible symptoms of contaminated air (CO, oil mist, etc) and don't know how to locate such a person. This is only for our own curiosity and not for pending legal action or anything else. I can only provide the details as I know them and realize than some of it will be speculation but would like to discuss this with someone who might be willing to help. Can anyone point me in the right direction? > My daughter's friend recently died in a Scuba accident. I would like to get > information from an (medical?) expert on the possible symptoms of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > someone who might be willing to help. Can anyone point me in the right > direction? Plenty of experts here. Post all the details and we'll autopsy her online. > > My daughter's friend recently died in a Scuba accident. I would like to > get [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Plenty of experts here. Post all the details and we'll autopsy her online. OK - This is the information as I have it. It is not complete and some may not be completely accurate. Two divers were diving from a commercial dive boat. The male is an experienced diver and the female recently completed a full course and certification (not a resort course). This was her first dive after certification. There were about 50 divers on the boat and they were diving a wreck in about 100 feet of water. That is, the bottom was at 100 feet and the top of the wreck was considerably shallower. I don't know how deep they actually went but most likely not below 50 to 60 feet. They were well within the dive limits and the divers were surfacing at the end of the dive. The male diver said they were at 40 feet beginning their assent when she attacked him (he also used the word 'panic'). He thought she was trying to get his regulator and thought at the time she might have been out of air or could not breathe for some reason. She pulled his mask off and he immediately began putting it back on and purging the water from it. I don't know exactly how long this took, but it shouldn't have been very long. He doesn't know what happened during that time except that the attack/panic stopped. When he recovered and got his mask back on, he looked for her and spotted her 'about 30 feet below' and sinking. He said she seemed to be looking up at him. At that point he made the decision to surface for help rather than go after her (don't try to guess his motives - I'm trying to theorize what happened). She was recovered from the bottom at about 100 feet and brought to the boat. She was unconscious but alive. She could not be revived. The boat returned and was met by an ambulance and she died on the ambulance on the way to the hospital. All the test results are not back yet, but we were told that there was no water in her lungs and no evidence of a heart attack or any other physical problem that might have caused her death. There apparently was some evidence of possible nitrogen bubbles in her brain but that is not conclusive. The equipment was examined and found to be functioning properly and there was air in the tank. Now the theories. What caused the initial problem? Inexperience? An actual problem breathing? The water was quite clear because he could see clearly at least 30 feet. Could it have been contaminated air? If it was CO that should have been easy to detect in the autopsy and, I would think, would have caused her to pass out without knowing she had a problem rather than panic. Could it have been oil vapor in the air? I don't know the symptoms of this or how easy it would be to detect later. They said that there was air in the tank but I don't know if they checked it for contamination. I think she was unconscious when he saw her sinking toward the bottom. It is my experience that divers are generally slightly heavy rather than slightly light and, if she were unconscious, she would sink rather than float. Since no water was found in her lungs it would suggest that during the time that he surfaced and they rescued her, she was breathing at least some. Could it have been contaminated air or equipment malfunction that was either not detected or covered up later? Just ideas of mine. I'm looking for other possibilities and realize that they might be endless. Even if the reason for the initial panic cannot be determined, what might have caused her to pass out but remain alive for the period of time between the actual problem and the rescue? The possible nitrogen in the brain could easily be explained by the time she spent at or near 100 feet before the rescue and was probably not part of the initial problem. > OK - This is the information as I have it. It is not complete and some may > not be completely accurate. No matter. The answers you get may not be completely accurate and may be entirely wrong, so who's counting? > Two divers were diving from a commercial dive boat. The male is an > experienced diver and the female recently completed a full course and > certification (not a resort course). This was her first dive after > certification. Where were they diving? Water temperature may be a factor. > He thought she was trying to get his regulator > and thought at the time she might have been out of air or could not breathe > for some reason. A wise deduction. > She pulled his mask off and he immediately began putting > it back on and purging the water from it. I don't know exactly how long > this took, but it shouldn't have been very long. Not a wise response. Addressing her panic is primary to keeping the water out of one's eyes. > He doesn't know what happened during that time except that the attack/panic > stopped. When he recovered and got his mask back on, he looked for her and > spotted her 'about 30 feet below' and sinking. He said she seemed to be > looking up at him. Of course the panic stopped. She was 30' feet below him and sinking. > All the test results are not back yet, but we were told that there was no > water in her lungs and no evidence of a heart attack or any other physical > problem that might have caused her death. No water in the lungs? Does that mean she was found with her regulator in her mouth? > There apparently was some > evidence of possible nitrogen bubbles in her brain but that is not > conclusive. The equipment was examined and found to be functioning properly > and there was air in the tank. Of course. If there were no air in the tank this would be easy. > Now the theories. What caused the initial problem? Inexperience? An > actual problem breathing? The water was quite clear because he could see > clearly at least 30 feet. Could it have been contaminated air? If it was > CO that should have been easy to detect in the autopsy and, I would think, > would have caused her to pass out without knowing she had a problem rather > than panic. It sounds to me like she had an actual problem breathing. Asthma, pulmonary edema, or some other loss of proper lung or airway function. > I think she was unconscious when he saw her sinking toward the bottom. It > is my experience that divers are generally slightly heavy rather than > slightly light and, if she were unconscious, she would sink rather than > float. Since no water was found in her lungs it would suggest that during > the time that he surfaced and they rescued her, she was breathing at least > some. > Even if the reason for the initial panic cannot be determined, what might > have caused her to pass out but remain alive for the period of time between > the actual problem and the rescue? The possible nitrogen in the brain could > easily be explained by the time she spent at or near 100 feet before the > rescue and was probably not part of the initial problem. Hypoxia could explain her passing out, if she was getting some but not enough oxygen. In that case, sinking might have been the better strategy, to increase the potency of the inspired air. Perhaps bringing her back up killed her. Greg Mossman left this mess on Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:40:45 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> OK - This is the information as I have it. It is not complete and some >may [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >Of course. If there were no air in the tank this would be easy. Assuming the tank was fully open in the first place. While the OP said the equipment was functioning properly, this is a detail too easily overlooked, usually from some clumsy first responder not noting if the tank was on or not, then the valve being turned during examination. Her intial response hints that she might not have been getting air, and I'd be curious to know how early in the dive this happened. >> Now the theories. What caused the initial problem? Inexperience? An >> actual problem breathing? The water was quite clear because he could see [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >to increase the potency of the inspired air. Perhaps bringing her back up >killed her. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 > While the OP said the equipment was functioning properly, this is a detail too > easily overlooked, usually from some clumsy first responder not noting if the > tank was on or not, then the valve being turned during examination. Her intial > response hints that she might not have been getting air, and I'd be curious to > know how early in the dive this happened. The OP said it occurred "on assent" so I took it to mean that it occurred on ascent, but perhaps he meant that it was voluntary. Greg Mossman left this mess on Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:02:48 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> While the OP said the equipment was functioning properly, this is a detail >too [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >The OP said it occurred "on assent" so I took it to mean that it occurred on >ascent, but perhaps he meant that it was voluntary. Speculation withdrawn, counselor. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 You're going to have to wait for test results on this one. The initial panic sounds like a new diver problem, particularly if she was low on gas. Low or out of gas seems more likely than contamination, but not everything is consistent with this. CO poisoning does not give a lot of warning, but there are signs. Most notable is a tingling sensation in the extremeties. By the time symptoms are evident, uncousciousness is about to occur, but the pending onset of unconsciousness certainly could result in panic. Reports that she was alive in the ambulance but did not make it to the hospital also sounds a lot like CO contamination, but everything you report could also be a result of any number of factors not directly related to diving. If you have input, I suggest the following: 1. At a minimum, arterial blood gas should be checked closely for CO poisoning. Lung tissue should be examined for signs of oil contamination. 2. Gas remaining in the tank should be tested to see not only whether it was contaminated, but also exactly what the tank was filled with. Air is not the only gas available from dive shops. The gas used changes the risks and requirements for controlling them. It's unlikely that the mix was a problem, but it still should be checked. 3. If the regulator was not carefully examined for problems, it should be. Just purging or breathing from it once or twice on the surface does nto ensure it was working properly at depth. > The possible nitrogen in the brain could easily be explained by the time she spent at or near 100 feet before the rescue and was probably not part of the initial > problem. We don't know how deep she went during the dive. At 100 feet, nitrogen narcosis could have been a problem. The effects are not always euphoria. Sometimes they are extreme anxiety, which can lead even an experienced diver to panic. This might be a contributing factor, but it's not likely to be the cause of death. Decompression sickness, the bends, seems unlikely. If this was the first dive of the day, it's very unlikely. The old rule used to be that you can not dive deep enough, long enough, on a single tank, to require decompression. The rule is not strictly true, but it's close enough that it's unlikely that she experienced any such problems at 40 feet. Lee "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message news:3W7nb.7547 > to panic. This might be a contributing factor, but it's not likely to be > the cause of death. Decompression sickness, the bends, seems unlikely. If > this was the first dive of the day, it's very unlikely. The old rule used > to be that you can not dive deep enough, long enough, on a single tank, to > require decompression. The rule is not strictly true, but it's close enough > that it's unlikely that she experienced any such problems at 40 feet. Well -- the rule sucks. Kimber remembering her trip to the chamber unfondly. > > Decompression sickness, the bends, seems unlikely. If this was the first dive of the day, it's very unlikely. The old rule used > > to be that you can not dive deep enough, long enough, on a single tank, to require decompression. The rule is not strictly true, but it's close > > enough that it's unlikely that she experienced any such problems at 40 feet. > Well -- the rule sucks. > Kimber remembering her trip to the chamber unfondly. It kept an awful lot of us alive for a very long time. I don't know your situation, but we need to keep in mind that we're talking a normal sized tank, which at the time, was 72 cubic feet, and a first, nitrogen clean dive. People have gotten bent within the tables and people who have exceptionally low gas consumption, as many of us here do, have no problem getting into the deco portion of the talbes even with a single 72, but there's almost nothing you can do on a first dive, with a single tank that will bring on symptoms at 40 feet. Lee "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message news:Rv8nb.7582 > It kept an awful lot of us alive for a very long time. I don't know your > situation, but we need to keep in mind that we're talking a normal sized [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > there's almost nothing you can do on a first dive, with a single tank that > will bring on symptoms at 40 feet. I am sure it did. It was after 2 40ish foot dives about 30 mins with a few hour surface interval iirc. And I am even more sure that my hit was a totally fluke thing. I went on to do much more challenging dives with no issues at all. Kimber > "Lee Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote in message > news:Rv8nb.7582 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Kimber Did they look for a PFO? Yeah, I know, it's the cool thing to ask nowadays, but anyway...  SignatureMichael Wolf ------------ Cthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply "Michael Wolf" <michael.wolf@advalvasstopspam.be> wrote in message > Did they look for a PFO? > Yeah, I know, it's the cool thing to ask nowadays, but anyway... Well -- they suggested it but as the insurance would not pay for it and I could not afford it, I did not have it done. I suppose I could be a diving time bomb -- The hyperbaric md told me that since it was apparent I really was driven to go back to diving -- to take it slowly and work my way into deeper dives... somehow I don't think she expected I would go quite so far! (-: Kimber > You're going to have to wait for test results on this one. The > initial panic sounds like a new diver problem, particularly if she was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a lot like CO contamination, but everything you report could also be > a result of any number of factors not directly related to diving. The color of her skin should (could?) have given an indication. But the nausea caused by the CO poisoning could have indeed induced a panic. > If you have input, I suggest the following: > 1. At a minimum, arterial blood gas should be checked closely for CO [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it should be. Just purging or breathing from it once or twice on the > surface does nto ensure it was working properly at depth. Question is: if it was CO poisoning, then why only her tank? From the description (50 people on the boat) I gather they went with a dive operator. Did they rent their tanks from him? Can't imagine that her and only her tank was filled at a place where nobody else filled theirs. >> The possible nitrogen in the brain could easily be explained by the >> time [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > even an experienced diver to panic. This might be a contributing > factor, but it's not likely to be the cause of death. And as she was going up (they were at 40 feet) narcosis isn't 'really' likely. Decompression > sickness, the bends, seems unlikely. If this was the first dive of > the day, it's very unlikely. The old rule used to be that you can not > dive deep enough, long enough, on a single tank, to require > decompression. The rule is not strictly true, but it's close enough > that it's unlikely that she experienced any such problems at 40 feet. I regulary do (short) deco dives on a single tank (30' at 30m is already enough), but it's true that they're not of the kind to start giving problems at 40 feet. SignatureMichael Wolf ------------ Cthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > The color of her skin should (could?) have given an indication. > But the nausea caused by the CO poisoning could have indeed induced a > panic. When my wife took a CO hit aboard a friend's boat, there was no noticable discoloration. There may have been some under her nails, but they are covered with polish. The first sign she was not OK was her disorientation and desire to lay down and go to sleep. The nausea didn't come until later. After an hour on O2, her artierial blood gas was still more than 3/4 of the way to dead. There's a good chance that, with CO, the first recognizable sign is unconsciousness. It's really nasty stuff. It's also why I have an 80 cubic foot O2 bottle. > Question is: if it was CO poisoning, then why only her tank? From the > description (50 people on the boat) I gather they went with a dive > operator. Did they rent their tanks from him? > Can't imagine that her and only her tank was filled at a place where nobody > else filled theirs. Not too many years ago, there was a CO poisoning that turned out to have been the result of a running car parked near the outside air intake for the compressor. As far as I know, only one diver died as a result. Stranger things have happened. > I regulary do (short) deco dives on a single tank (30' at 30m is already > enough), but it's true that they're not of the kind to start giving > problems at 40 feet. Yep, and I bet you have low consumption too. I've done lots of light deco dives on a single 80. The rule's not particular good, but it was the rule for a long time. Lee >>The color of her skin should (could?) have given an indication. >>But the nausea caused by the CO poisoning could have indeed induced a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > sign is unconsciousness. It's really nasty stuff. It's also why I have an > 80 cubic foot O2 bottle. I wasn't thinking of a discoloration, but rather of her having 'healthy' red cheeks. It's interesting to hear that the nausea was only coming later. I haven't (thank God) experienced a CO hit, be it as victim or bystander. I was taught that dissiness and nausea are among the first symptoms of CO poisoning (that and the red color). <snip> >>I regulary do (short) deco dives on a single tank (30' at 30m is already >>enough), but it's true that they're not of the kind to start giving [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dives on a single 80. The rule's not particular good, but it was the rule > for a long time. My SAC is at 11l/min., but a lot of people with a higher SAC are also doing it. Most are using 12L tanks filled at 200 bar (well, most of the time they're overfilled to 220-230 bar). Even with a square profile you can do a deco dive to 30m (with a SAC of 15l), the regular dives in the Oosterschelde don't have a square profile which makes it even more feasible. SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > It's interesting to hear that the nausea was only coming later. I > haven't (thank God) experienced a CO hit, be it as victim or bystander. > I was taught that dissiness and nausea are among the first symptoms of > CO poisoning (that and the red color). In her case, the CO hit came from the boat's exhaust which a combination of a following breeze and the compartment formed by the exit to the cabin (flybridge boat) and canvas top trapped where she was sitting. The cockpit was open on both sides and the rear which you would normally think was enough. It wasn't. > Most are using 12L tanks filled at 200 bar (well, most of the time > they're overfilled to 220-230 bar). Even with a square profile you can > do a deco dive to 30m (with a SAC of 15l), the regular dives in the > Oosterschelde don't have a square profile which makes it even more feasible. Obviously, the larger the tank, the more likely it is. Lee > In her case, the CO hit came from the boat's exhaust which a combination of > a following breeze and the compartment formed by the exit to the cabin > (flybridge boat) and canvas top trapped where she was sitting. The cockpit > was open on both sides and the rear which you would normally think was > enough. It wasn't. I would never have expected that to be a dangerous situation. Thanks for sharing. >>Most are using 12L tanks filled at 200 bar (well, most of the time >>they're overfilled to 220-230 bar). Even with a square profile you can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Obviously, the larger the tank, the more likely it is. The 12l mono (be it the long one or the shorty) has always been the de facto standard here (there were/are also some 10l mono's around), although now the 15l mono is becoming quite popular. I just stick to the 12l or double 7l. SignatureMichael Wolf ----- Cthulhu For President. Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > Now the theories. What caused the initial problem? Inexperience? An > actual problem breathing? The water was quite clear because he could see > clearly at least 30 feet. Could it have been contaminated air? If it was > CO that should have been easy to detect in the autopsy and, I would think, > would have caused her to pass out without knowing she had a problem rather > than panic. You'll probably never know what caused her to panic. It could have been something as simple as a few drops of water hitting the uvula in her throat causing her throat to close down. (swallowing will correct the problem) The fact that she was on her first dive after getting certified tells me her "buddy" should have been watching her closer. How he could just watch her sink from only 30 ft away is beyond me. She should never have been more than arm's length away. Greg Mossman left this mess on Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:56:01 -0800 for The Way to clean up: >> My daughter's friend recently died in a Scuba accident. I would like to >get [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Plenty of experts here. Post all the details and we'll autopsy her online. Don't forget the pictures. Nudes, preferably. Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003 > Don't forget the pictures. Nudes, preferably. Allusions to cyber-necrophilia? Tsk, tsk... > > Don't forget the pictures. Nudes, preferably. > > Allusions to cyber-necrophilia? Tsk, tsk... So? This is rec.scuba Land of the perverted and home of the insane. ;) rhys > My daughter's friend recently died in a Scuba accident. I would like to get > information from an (medical?) expert on the possible symptoms of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > someone who might be willing to help. Can anyone point me in the right > direction? Look up DAN's web site and email their general queries addy. Here are a couple of articles on this accident. They don't help any. http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,7648460%5E3102,00.html http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031023/s031023.html > Here are a couple of articles on this accident. They don't help any. You got anything else to say that won't help? Oh, wait... Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > Here are a couple of articles on this accident. They don't help any. > > http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,7648460%5E3 > 102,00.html > > http://www.cdnn.info/safety/s031023/s031023.html Having dived from that boat it is very unlikly that only one tank would be affected. There are a minimum of two tanks being filled from the same compressor at any one time. And that compressor is an Air/Nitrox one so the filtering is first rate. I would also think it unlikly to get a bad fill from them. The attention to detail is just too good. FWIW and just one thing that I do know, tank "O" rings are changed every trip so that is usually every 8 days!! So the chances of poor maintanance is really low. >replace spamblock with my family name to e-mail me |
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