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Scuba Forum / General / July 2004

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Should I update the GPS?

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suds - 23 Jul 2004 01:06 GMT
My Garmin "GPS 12 Map" hand held is getting to be rather old.  I was
thinking that maybe I should get a newer one.  What with the improved
satellite signal strength, WAAS capability, color LCD displays, increased
memory, and all, I figured that what's out there now should be *so* much
better than my 4 year-old unit.  But that doesn't seem to be so.  My unit
has a stated accuracy of 50ft.  The new units claim 15ft using WAAS.  While
they are now in color, the screens on the hand helds haven't gotten any
bigger.  While they do have a lot more memory for storing maps, will those
maps be anymore accurate than the crummy ones I can upload now?  In other
words, is it worth shelling out $300+ for a new unit and software?  Any
thoughts?  Anyone got a unit to recommend that is just so much better than
what I've got that I'd be a fool not to run right out and buy it?

suds
nitespark - 23 Jul 2004 02:01 GMT
> My Garmin "GPS 12 Map" hand held is getting to be rather old.  I was
> thinking that maybe I should get a newer one.  What with the improved
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> thoughts?  Anyone got a unit to recommend that is just so much better than
> what I've got that I'd be a fool not to run right out and buy it?

I have a Garmin GPS V and am quite pleased with it.  19mb of storage and
I am using Mapsource Metroguide software.  The street level mapping is
pretty good but I have found errors in it.

I tried one of the StreetPilots (color screen and 128mb memory) and
really didn't like it that much.  I guess the main thing I didn't like
about it was lack of user programmed parameters on the map screen.  On
the GPS V, you have 4 user defined sub-screens.  The StreetPilot would
not let you define the subscreen function on the map page.  I enabled
the WAAS function on mine but for just driving around town, you really
don't need to be that accurate.  The GPS V has a monochrome screen but
excellent backlighting as compared to predecessor versions.  The
StreetPilot for all practical purposes is a mobile unit only, as it eats
batteries so fast, it really isn't practical for portable use.  The GPS
V will last 8-16 hours on a set of 4 AA batteries (depending on
backlighting etc).  Some of the auto routing on both units...will...get
you there, but I have tried it on both units, and sometimes they will
take you a bit out of the way.

The Metroguide software is fairly accurate on facilities such as
restaurants, municipal buildings, car repairs, etc etc.  Of course that
changes frequently as businesses change locations, go out of business,
new ones open up, etc.

The GPS V is in a water resistant housing.  I think it is rated for 30
minutes at 3 ft or something like that.

I can download my "tracks" from my GPS and follow the routes I have
taken recently.  I can also upload and download waypoints with the
Metroguide software, which makes it convenient when entering new locations.

I keep my GPS in my car and use a remote antenna on the dash.  All in
all, I like the GPS V.

Andy
suds - 23 Jul 2004 07:18 GMT
> I have a Garmin GPS V and am quite pleased with it.  19mb of storage and
> I am using Mapsource Metroguide software.  The street level mapping is
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Andy

Thanks.  I'm patial to the Garmins myselfs but, again, I just don't see that
much of an improvement in the last four years to justify updating my "MAPS
12."
Steve Kramer - 23 Jul 2004 02:05 GMT
> My Garmin "GPS 12 Map" hand held is getting to be rather old.  I was
> thinking that maybe I should get a newer one.  What with the improved
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> thoughts?  Anyone got a unit to recommend that is just so much better than
> what I've got that I'd be a fool not to run right out and buy it?

For what it's worth, my Garmin Extrex Vista is 2.7 kilometers off on
it's internal map of the Lao border... We can't use WAAS but in that
part of the jungle I can get down to  7 meters (21 feet) accuracy. But
2.7 kliks can spell the difference between a nice trek and a week spent
in jail trying to explain why you were illegally in their country.

Steve Kramer
Chiang Mai, Thailand
http://www.photoenvisions.com

Signature

"The voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new horizons,
but in seeing with new eyes."  -  Marcel Proust

suds - 23 Jul 2004 07:25 GMT
> For what it's worth, my Garmin Extrex Vista is 2.7 kilometers off on
> it's internal map of the Lao border... We can't use WAAS but in that
> part of the jungle I can get down to  7 meters (21 feet) accuracy. But
> 2.7 kliks can spell the difference between a nice trek and a week spent
> in jail trying to explain why you were illegally in their country.

From my experience, what you describe is not an issue of the accuracy of the
GPS receiver but the accuracy of the internal (or downloaded) maps.
Everyday I drive down Kam Highway from my house to town.  Everyday, my "12
Maps" shows me driving across the ocean a significant part of the way.  If
it was inaccuracies in the receiver, then my route would greatly differ each
day, but that isn't so.  I always cut across the bay at the same point.
Obviously the map is wrong.

suds
Steve Kramer - 23 Jul 2004 10:56 GMT
>>For what it's worth, my Garmin Extrex Vista is 2.7 kilometers off on
>>it's internal map of the Lao border... We can't use WAAS but in that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> day, but that isn't so.  I always cut across the bay at the same point.
> Obviously the map is wrong.

Oh, no question about that! They don't even make up-loadable road maps
for this part of the world. There is a general global map pre loaded
into the GPS. I have made my own track maps for more difficult routes
through the jungles that I load when I need them. The damn jungle keeps
growing back so quickly often the road is completely obliterated! Same
sort of thing for river crossings. The streams change course with every
flood, and the only way to get back to some of the hill tribe villages
is to follow the GPS across several rivers (or no-longer-rivers or new
rivers...) At least the GPS itself is accurate enough for that.

Steve Kramer
Chiang Mai, Thailand
http://www.photoenvisions.com
Five years, eleven months, two days, 10 hours, 56 minutes and 6 seconds.
64903 cigarettes not smoked, saving $16,225.92. Time used for a better
purpose: 32 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 35 minutes.

Signature

"The voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new horizons,
but in seeing with new eyes."  -  Marcel Proust

suds - 23 Jul 2004 13:34 GMT
> Oh, no question about that! They don't even make up-loadable road maps
> for this part of the world. There is a general global map pre loaded
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is to follow the GPS across several rivers (or no-longer-rivers or new
> rivers...) At least the GPS itself is accurate enough for that.

Oh, and don't forget that dense jungle foliage will interfere with the GPS
signals.  I had read such but never experienced it until I moved over to the
Windward side of Oahu.

suds
Steve Kramer - 23 Jul 2004 14:12 GMT
>>Oh, no question about that! They don't even make up-loadable road maps
>>for this part of the world. There is a general global map pre loaded
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> signals.  I had read such but never experienced it until I moved over to the
> Windward side of Oahu.

That happens all the time!! Sometimes my signal get as poor as 40 meter
accuracy because the GPS can only see 3-4 satellites. In the really
dense vegetation I sometimes lose signal altogether! I have to climb a
tree to find out where I am! But in the clearings I can get back to 4-7
meter accuracy, which is enough for me to use.

Steve Kramer
Chiang Mai, Thailand
http://www.photoenvisions.com
Five years, eleven months, two days, 14 hours, 11 minutes and 12
seconds. 64907 cigarettes not smoked, saving $16,226.93. Time used for a
better purpose: 32 weeks, 1 day, 8 hours, 55 minutes.

Signature

"The voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new horizons,
but in seeing with new eyes."  -  Marcel Proust

Dillon Pyron - 23 Jul 2004 22:15 GMT
>> For what it's worth, my Garmin Extrex Vista is 2.7 kilometers off on
>> it's internal map of the Lao border... We can't use WAAS but in that
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>suds

This may, in fact, be due to mapping error.  A lot depends on which
coordinate system was used to make the map.  There are several
different ones in use.  I can look up the various names, but I do know
that NOAA and the British Admirality use different ones, which
sometimes makes for interesting results (just where are those shoals).

WGS 78 comes to mind, somebody out there know for sure?

Signature

dillon

When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.

Lee Bell - 23 Jul 2004 04:15 GMT
> My Garmin "GPS 12 Map" hand held is getting to be rather old.  I was
> thinking that maybe I should get a newer one.  What with the improved
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> thoughts?  Anyone got a unit to recommend that is just so much better than
> what I've got that I'd be a fool not to run right out and buy it?

I recently retired my Garmin GPS 50.  It was, I think, the first of their
hand held gps offerings.  I paid dearly for it when I got it, but got my
money's worth out of it over the years.  It went from being primary on my 25
foot boat, to being backup on the big boat and primary on the smaller ones .
. . then it died.  When I bought my current boat, I wanted to upgrade to
color.  I bought the Garmin 2006c, a color chart plotter that used the blue
charts.  I purchased the fish finder module for it as well.  This is the
same as the larger 2010 except for screen size.  The 2010 was too large for
my available space.  Since I got almost nothing for the previous boat, the
black and white GPSMap 215 it had, became the backup for my new boat.  I
replaced the GPS 50 with a color chart plotter Garmin 60c, which is what I
use on my dinghy and on my 15 foot runabout.  It's a hand held, color unit
that takes uploads from my blue chart CDs.  There's a another color handheld
model that, I think, has a slightly larger screen.  BTW, my bicycles have
Garmin Geckos and my car has a Garmin IQue 3600 PDA/GPS.  I guess you could
say I like GPS toys.

At any rate, the answer to your question is probably to keep what you have
until it either fails or is no longer supported.  With Garmin, that's not
likely to be real soon.  Their products tend to be durable and their
customer service has always been there for me.  My 215, which is not Waas
capable pretty much matches my 2006, that is.  Since selective availability
was turned off, both are pretty good.  The blue chart chips/CD have a lot
more detail and information than the one in my 215, including depth contours
and more up to date channel markers, etc.  In the hand held, however, the
small screen really does not lend itself to that kind of detail.  It's worth
it on the 2006, but probably not on the 60c.  The color screen is very nice,
but you'll have to decide whether you want that badly enough to pay for it.
They don't come cheap.  I like my 60c a lot, but I did not buy it until my
50 gave up the ghost.

The primary advantages of the new software may matter to you, but nobody can
make the decision for you.  The blue charts themselves are more accurate.
My 215 still shows me motoring on land as I head out to the ocean.  The blue
chart shows me in the water.  The numbers, however, are the same on both.
It's the chart that's different, not the accuracy.  The blue chart products
also have searchable information, from tide stations and tide charts, to
restaurants, marinas and even bathrooms.  as well as a decent lookup
function to help you find what you want.

Lee
suds - 23 Jul 2004 07:31 GMT
A lot of stuff that makes me suspect he's an engineer at heart.   ;^)

No, seriously, it's the lack of accuracy in the maps that drives me crazy.
You seem to be telling me that they have not improved at all in 4 years.

suds
HLAviation - 23 Jul 2004 07:49 GMT
No, what I'm saying is that's the major improvement in the last 4 years
(actualy 1.5 years). The best of the proprietary chart systems I ave found
are the Navionics, they come in two series, the Classic and Gold. They
maintain the same vector format database, however the displaying is somewhat
different. The Golds are a bit nicer in my opinion.

> A lot of stuff that makes me suspect he's an engineer at heart.   ;^)
>
> No, seriously, it's the lack of accuracy in the maps that drives me crazy.
> You seem to be telling me that they have not improved at all in 4 years.
>
> suds
Adam Helberg - 24 Jul 2004 02:41 GMT
> > My Garmin "GPS 12 Map" hand held is getting to be rather old.  I was
> > thinking that maybe I should get a newer one.  What with the improved
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Garmin Geckos and my car has a Garmin IQue 3600 PDA/GPS.  I guess you could
> say I like GPS toys.

I also have the iQue and am looking for a way to put it on my bike. Can I ask you why
you do not use the iQue on your bike?

Adam
HLAviation - 23 Jul 2004 05:59 GMT
The real upgrade is the quality of the charts. Raytheon has a new one out,
forget the model, that takes the Navionics Gold charts. Very nice.
As for the GPS itself, 'bout the same, maybe a bit more accurate on that
end, however the increased memory and processor speed makes the moving map
positioning more "real time".

> My Garmin "GPS 12 Map" hand held is getting to be rather old.  I was
> thinking that maybe I should get a newer one.  What with the improved
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> suds
suds - 23 Jul 2004 07:32 GMT
> The real upgrade is the quality of the charts. Raytheon has a new one out,
> forget the model, that takes the Navionics Gold charts. Very nice.
>  As for the GPS itself, 'bout the same, maybe a bit more accurate on that
> end, however the increased memory and processor speed makes the moving map
> positioning more "real time".

There we go.  The response of a person who actually uses these things.   ;^)

suds
HLAviation - 24 Jul 2004 09:03 GMT
Actually, for the most part, I just hook my old Garmin 76 to my laptop and
run my charting there, Lately I've been running Nobletec with the Passport
series vector charts. I like the big screen, and normally I'm inside.

> > The real upgrade is the quality of the charts. Raytheon has a new one out,
> > forget the model, that takes the Navionics Gold charts. Very nice.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> suds
Dillon Pyron - 23 Jul 2004 22:36 GMT
>My Garmin "GPS 12 Map" hand held is getting to be rather old.  I was
>thinking that maybe I should get a newer one.  What with the improved
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>suds

Minor point and deviation from the actual question.  Garmin has
recently come out with a "minimum retail price" policy.  Which means
everybody is selling at the same "low low price".  So there are no
longer any deals out there.
Signature

dillon

When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.

 
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