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Scuba Forum / General / July 2004

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Diagnosis: Leiden Factor V

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suds - 17 Jul 2004 08:31 GMT
The hematologist prescribes golf.  He didn't take it very well when I told
him that golf is for people who've already given up.  I'll be contacting
DAN.  There is no way I'm just going to roll over and die.

suds
H. Huntzinger - 17 Jul 2004 12:02 GMT
> The hematologist prescribes golf.  He didn't take it very well when I told
> him that golf is for people who've already given up.  I'll be contacting
> DAN.  There is no way I'm just going to roll over and die.

Sorry to hear of your problem (and I had to go look up what Leiden
Factor V is too):  did the hematologist give any particular rationale
for why he thinks diving is a no-no?

-hh
suds - 17 Jul 2004 15:57 GMT
> Sorry to hear of your problem (and I had to go look up what Leiden
> Factor V is too):  did the hematologist give any particular rationale
> for why he thinks diving is a no-no?

He he.  I did that on purpose.  I had never heard of it either until today
but it turns out to be a fairly common genetic malfunction in us Northern
European sort.  Fortunately, the wife sees it often manifest itself as blood
clots in women who are pregnant or using birth control.  She recognized my
"sore leg" as a blood clot and sent me to the emergency room before it
killed me (and it came d@mn close.)  You see healthy, active 40 year-olds
don't get blood clots...

If looking it up via google annoyed you, be glad we aren't related.
Everyone in my family (father, brothers, sisters, kids) must now be tested
for it and they each have a 50% chance of joining me.

According to doctor, I must be on blood thinners for the rest of my life.
Blood thinners are lots of fun.  Yesterday I scratched my foot with the
broom while sweeping the front walk  I didn't even think to look until my
daughter started screaming: "Dad, what's wrong with your foot."  There was
blood all over the place.  I'm told that the pressure differentials involved
in scuba diving will make it too dangerous.  (Think about how some people
always get bloody noses when they dive.)

Unfortunately, this diagnosis will/can alter much of my lifestyle.  Any
activity where I might be injured while a long distance from medical
assistance (say kayaking along Kauai's Na Pali Coast) is advised against.  I
might bleed to death before help arrived.  I didn't ask but I'm pretty sure
the private pilots license is out too.  You get the idea.

What blew my mind is that when I objected.  When I pointed out all the
activities I was being told to give up.  The doctor just shrugged and said:
"Why don't you take up golf."  And he was serious.  Fortunately I am married
to a doctor who agrees with me about golf.   ;^)

suds
Galen Hekhuis - 17 Jul 2004 16:18 GMT
>...
>Unfortunately, this diagnosis will/can alter much of my lifestyle.  Any
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>the private pilots license is out too.  You get the idea.
>...

Apologies for taking up newsgroup space, but I am unable to unmung the
email address.  In any event, my brother just went through FAA stuff
including his loss of pilot's license (he used to fly a corporate jet for
executives) for taking blood thinners and then recently (within the past
month) got FAA approval to regain his license and fly again.  In an attempt
to relate this to SCUBA, he used to teach diving in the 70s.  Email me for
his email address if you want.

--
  Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA                    ghekhuis@earthlink.net
                    We are the CroMagnon of the future
H. Huntzinger - 18 Jul 2004 13:50 GMT
> I had never heard of it either until today
> but it turns out to be a fairly common genetic malfunction in us Northern
> European sort.

I've not heard of it either...and having plenty of "non-Southern"
European blood myself, its one more thing for me to keep in mind about
as well, particularly how it seems to link with Deep Vein Thrombosis
from airline flights, etc.

> If looking it up via google annoyed you, be glad we aren't related.

Sorry if I gave the impression that it was 'annoying'; I don't mind
Googling, particularly when the answer pops up in half of the Chris Wolf
archive search 5 minute maximum attention span  :-).

> Everyone in my family (father, brothers, sisters, kids) must now be tested
> for it and they each have a 50% chance of joining me.

Understood...my brother had a precancerous skin something-or-other that
all of us were notified of as a risk factor.

> According to doctor, I must be on blood thinners for the rest of my life.
> ... I'm told that the pressure differentials involved
> in scuba diving will make it too dangerous.  (Think about how some people
> always get bloody noses when they dive.)

I'd hope that a balance could be struck between 'think enough' and 'too
thin' that would permit diving.

> What blew my mind is that when I objected.  When I pointed out all the
> activities I was being told to give up.  The doctor just shrugged and said:
> "Why don't you take up golf."  And he was serious.

You can get pretty darn removed from help on some courses.  Ironic.

-hh
suds - 18 Jul 2004 16:20 GMT
> > If looking it up via google annoyed you, be glad we aren't related.
>
> Sorry if I gave the impression that it was 'annoying'; I don't mind
> Googling, particularly when the answer pops up in half of the Chris Wolf
> archive search 5 minute maximum attention span  :-).

I was just joking around.  ;^)

> > Everyone in my family (father, brothers, sisters, kids) must now be tested
> > for it and they each have a 50% chance of joining me.
>
> Understood...my brother had a precancerous skin something-or-other that
> all of us were notified of as a risk factor.

My baby brother was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer two years ago.
He was only 35 at the time.  35 year-old men aren't supposed to have
prostate cancer.  And ... there is a strong gentetic link.  Basically, I've
been told that it's not if but when.  Thanks to baby bro, I get to have my
PSA tested every 4 months and have already had two biopsiess.  Prostate
biopsies are a real pain in the a.s (pun intended.)

So I came into "this Leiden-Factor 5" thing (sounds like somthing from cheap
science fiction, doesn't it?) with all that bagage.  But blood clots don't
just occur in healthy people for no reason.  I assume that a weight lifting
injury was the trigger but the doctors don't buy it.  Since I haven't been
on an airplane in months, in their minds it must be cancer.  (I just don't
understand how sitting in an airplane seat can be considered a more likely
trigger than tearing a tendon but, hey, I'm just an engineer...)  I have
been poked, proded, x-rayed, cat-scanned, ultra-sounded, ... to death and
they are still looking.  I've taken to quoting Monte Python: "I'm not dead
yet."   ;^)

> > According to doctor, I must be on blood thinners for the rest of my life.
> > ... I'm told that the pressure differentials involved
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I'd hope that a balance could be struck between 'think enough' and 'too
> thin' that would permit diving.

That is my position too.  I've found some papers that support me but the
issue is controversial.  And when it's controversial, the doctors tend to
just say "no."  So, unless I'm willing to lie, or buy my own boat, I'll be
stuck with shore diving for the rest of my life.

> > What blew my mind is that when I objected.  When I pointed out all the
> > activities I was being told to give up.  The doctor just shrugged and said:
> > "Why don't you take up golf."  And he was serious.
>
> You can get pretty darn removed from help on some courses.  Ironic.

Whatever.  I'm not going to take up golf.  (Too many doctors.  ;^)  )  I
used to play it when I was younger but I lost interest in the game.  Now
mind you, I enjoyed it and was pretty good at it but I never took the game
that seriously and that really pissed off all the other guys who did.  So
rather than spend my Saturday watching some hacker not talk to me, I found
more interesting things to do.

suds
Steve - 19 Jul 2004 07:33 GMT
Sorry for your loss, as it were.

> So, unless I'm willing to lie, or buy my own boat, I'll be
> stuck with shore diving for the rest of my life.

If you really have any qualms about lying to a dive op you could consider moving to
Grand Cayman or Bonaire. I'm not clear on whether the diving problem is a result of
the underlying condition or the blood thinners, but got the impression it's the
latter. Aside from the idea of a reduced dosage, perhaps you could just skip them
when you're planning to dive.  OTOH, living in Hawaii, that might mean skipping them
most weekends.

FWIW, the dosage that your doctor prescribes isn't a dosage that was actually decided
by trained medical professionals. A while back I had a friend who worked for Schering
Pharmaceuticals, and she had a boyfriend whose job at the company was to decide what
the dosages should be for new drugs. What was his background, you ask? He has a Ph.D.
in statistics. You know, just like Bob Ling. His exact job was to analyze the results
of clinical trials that used various dosages on a wide range of people and then
decide on the "best" dosage for everybody, based on improvement and side effects.
About the most variation you can hope for is consideration of your body weight.
Naturally, what works very well for the other guy who is your age and weight may not
be ideal for you. It's not at all unusual for people to do well with a smaller dosage
and, naturally, all those side effects are more likely as the dosage goes up. Of
course it's a lot easier for you to evaluate the results of, say, Prozac on your own
than to evaluate the results of blood thinners or other drugs that change things that
mostly show up on lab tests.

> Whatever.  I'm not going to take up golf.  (Too many doctors.  ;^)  )  I
> used to play it when I was younger but I lost interest in the game.  Now
> mind you, I enjoyed it

Once upon a time during the very long drive to Kentucky, my two companions spent a
couple of hours discussing golf and made it sound quite interesting and fun, but not
quite so interesting and fun for me to have gone out and given it a try, apparently.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

suds - 19 Jul 2004 21:44 GMT
> Sorry for your loss, as it were.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> when you're planning to dive.  OTOH, living in Hawaii, that might mean skipping them
> most weekends.

At this point, my Doctors say it is the blood thinners that will prevent me
from diving.  Scott says that the nitrogen bubbles, themselves, can also
cause blood clots.  I hadn't heard that before but will be looking into it.
The wife is looking for a dive medicine doc on the Island.  I must assume
there would be at least one here.

And as far as lying goes ... I just can't do that.  It's not the dive
operators fault.  He's just trying to stay employed.  His lawyer is the one
telling him "don't let this guy on the boat."  And if something did go
wrong, I would feel really bad about causing so much grief to others just
because I refused I didn't like the rules.  That's not right.

> FWIW, the dosage that your doctor prescribes isn't a dosage that was actually decided
> by trained medical professionals. A while back I had a friend who worked for Schering
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> than to evaluate the results of blood thinners or other drugs that change things that
> mostly show up on lab tests.

You know, the more I talk with my doctors, the more I come to feel that they
don't know sh*t about this.  It just seems to be that from experience
they've found that if they keep your blood thinner than vodka, you won't get
another blood clot.  Why?  They don't know but it works so that's what I
must do.
nitespark - 19 Jul 2004 22:27 GMT
> At this point, my Doctors say it is the blood thinners that will prevent me
> from diving.  Scott says that the nitrogen bubbles, themselves, can also
> cause blood clots.  I hadn't heard that before but will be looking into it.
> The wife is looking for a dive medicine doc on the Island.  I must assume
> there would be at least one here.

Suds,
I am really sorry to hear about your condition and its affect on your
diving.  FWIW, my wife does not dive and has a multitude of medical
issues, one of which is blood clotting.  She is on coumodin (sp)which is
a blood thinner.  In a recent visit to her physician, she mentioned some
diving I would be doing.  Her physician told her there was no reason she
could not dive.  In light of all her other medical issues, which he is
aware of, I found this astonishing.  I don't know about your situation,
but she has to keep a proper balance with the medication.  She goes to
the doctors office periodically to get her blood work assessed and to
make sure she isn't gettting to much blood thinner or not enough.  Kind
of a balancing act.

> And as far as lying goes ... I just can't do that.  It's not the dive
> operators fault.  He's just trying to stay employed.  His lawyer is the one
> telling him "don't let this guy on the boat."  And if something did go
> wrong, I would feel really bad about causing so much grief to others just
> because I refused I didn't like the rules.  That's not right.

I admire your ethics.  I know it is tempting to try and dive despite
advice otherwise but your are putting others above your own desires.  I
truly hope it works out you can eventually continue to dive.

> You know, the more I talk with my doctors, the more I come to feel that they
> don't know sh*t about this.  It just seems to be that from experience
> they've found that if they keep your blood thinner than vodka, you won't get
> another blood clot.  Why?  They don't know but it works so that's what I
> must do.

Is there anyway you could get your doctors to hook up with the doctors
at DAN???
suds - 19 Jul 2004 22:45 GMT
> > At this point, my Doctors say it is the blood thinners that will prevent me
> > from diving.  Scott says that the nitrogen bubbles, themselves, can also
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> make sure she isn't gettting to much blood thinner or not enough.  Kind
> of a balancing act.

Coumaden is what I'm on.  They are still working on getting me "therapeutic"
so I get to have a blood test every 4 days or so.  If my INR drops too low,
I get to go back to shooting up Lovenox.  Learning to give myself shots was
not a lot of fun but worth it in order to get out of the hospital.  I think
they were happy to see me leave, though.  LOL

> > And as far as lying goes ... I just can't do that.  It's not the dive
> > operators fault.  He's just trying to stay employed.  His lawyer is the one
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> advice otherwise but your are putting others above your own desires.  I
> truly hope it works out you can eventually continue to dive.

I think we have all been on a boat with someone who shouldn't have been
there.  Usually it's because they lack the experience.

I do remember one trip in the Bahamas were there was a diver who really
wrecked things for everyone.  Not only were her skills so bad that she never
should have been certified but she had a whole laundry list of medical
problems like high blood pressure, diabetes, liver problems, obesity, ...
that should have prevented her from even taking the course.  She managed to
get herself bent.  At the risk of sounding cold hearted, I was rather angry
with her.

suds
nitespark - 20 Jul 2004 01:07 GMT
>>>At this point, my Doctors say it is the blood thinners that will prevent
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> not a lot of fun but worth it in order to get out of the hospital.  I think
> they were happy to see me leave, though.  LOL

Same stuff, I just never tried to spell it before.  She doesn't take
anything by needle and I think she has everything balanced out now,
although it was see-sawing quite a bit initially.  Her diet had a great
deal of effect on it.  She had to be very careful about eating salads
and vegetables.  She could eat whatever she wanted, its just if she ate
a salad every night, then she would have to take more medicine.  That
sort of thing.  My point being, that perhaps sometime in the future when
things are stabilized, you could return to diving under the guidance and
approval of your physician.

>>>And as far as lying goes ... I just can't do that.  It's not the dive
>>>operators fault.  He's just trying to stay employed.  His lawyer is the
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> get herself bent.  At the risk of sounding cold hearted, I was rather angry
> with her.

On my last trip, we had a diver who had just recently been certified and
skills were lacking, especially buoyancy.  This diver didn't get bent or
get anyone hurt, but on our last day, we had a somewhat "advanced" dive,
going through some coral swimthroughs and "caves" and exiting at 135ft.
 This diver elected to sit out that dive.

The diver you speak of in the Bahamas....was this a deserved hit????
Just curious.
suds - 20 Jul 2004 05:21 GMT
> >>>At this point, my Doctors say it is the blood thinners that will prevent
> >
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> things are stabilized, you could return to diving under the guidance and
> approval of your physician.

Yep, stay away from that vitamin K.  The problem is that I like salads, and
broccoli, and asparagus...  I mean as a 40 year-old man, aren't I supposed
to be eating lots of it.  You know that fiber-colon cancer thing.  So I'm
currently taking an "elephant dose" of 10 mg of Coumaden a day.

I asked about lowering the INR after I had been stable and healthy for a
while.  My hematologist hemmed and hawed.  He admitted that some folks do do
it but advised against it.  I've contacted DAN and hopefully they'll find me
someone more knowledgeable in this subject and specifically in how it
affects diving for me to speak with.

> >>>And as far as lying goes ... I just can't do that.  It's not the dive
> >>>operators fault.  He's just trying to stay employed.  His lawyer is the
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> The diver you speak of in the Bahamas....was this a deserved hit????
> Just curious.

Well, ... she was grossly over-weighted.  The dive crew tried to convince
her that she didn't need 35lbs of lead but she insisted.  Carrying all that
weight, she quickly tired and emptied her tank on a relatively shallow dive
(~60ft IIRC.)  Exhausted and with her air running out, she discovered that
her BC did not have the lift to take her to the surface alone.  A DM was
attempting to assist her to the surface when she dropped her weight belt at
~40 ft.

I would call that deserved hit though the DM didn't deserve the one he got.

suds
nitespark - 20 Jul 2004 14:47 GMT
>>>>>At this point, my Doctors say it is the blood thinners that will
>
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> someone more knowledgeable in this subject and specifically in how it
> affects diving for me to speak with.

Actually my wife's doc said she could eat all the salad she
wanted....just have to adjust the meds accordingly.  What they wanted
her to do though was to be consistent.  If she eats lots of salads and
vegetables, keep that intake consistant so they could balance the med.
I am betting that if you get a knowledgeable doc who gets hooked up with
DAN, you will be cleared for diving.>

>>>>>And as far as lying goes ... I just can't do that.  It's not the dive
>>>>>operators fault.  He's just trying to stay employed.  His lawyer is the
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> I would call that deserved hit though the DM didn't deserve the one he got.

35lbs of weight???  Geez!!!  I am assuming she didn't have some huge
thick wetsuit on.  She must have looked like an Orca breaking the surface.
Dave L - 20 Jul 2004 15:44 GMT
> > The diver you speak of in the Bahamas....was this a deserved hit????
> > Just curious.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I would call that deserved hit though the DM didn't deserve the one he got.

If he hung on to her he did. Shoulda let her explode....drop a few el-bee's.

Dave.
suds - 20 Jul 2004 20:09 GMT
> If he hung on to her he did. Shoulda let her explode....drop a few el-bee's.

You might be right.  The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim
yourself.

suds
Jammer Six - 21 Jul 2004 03:14 GMT
> You might be right.  The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim
> yourself.

Oh, go ahead and say it.

"Know when to leave your buddy."

Signature

"We're going to rush the hijackers."
    -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

Scott - 21 Jul 2004 03:28 GMT
> ? You might be right.  The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim
> ? yourself.
>
> Oh, go ahead and say it.
>
> "Know when to leave your buddy."

Just before you get in the water.
Dave L - 21 Jul 2004 18:16 GMT
> ? You might be right.  The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim
> ? yourself.
>
> Oh, go ahead and say it.
>
> "Know when to leave your buddy."

Rule 34(a)

Dave.
Dave L - 21 Jul 2004 18:16 GMT
> > If he hung on to her he did. Shoulda let her explode....drop a few
> el-bee's.
>
> You might be right.  The first rule of rescue is not to become a victim
> yourself.

Particularly when it comes to the terminally stupid.

Dave.
Scott - 17 Jul 2004 14:37 GMT
> The hematologist prescribes golf.  He didn't take it very well when I told
> him that golf is for people who've already given up.  I'll be contacting
> DAN.  There is no way I'm just going to roll over and die.

Time to start diving with helium.

As I understand the condition, you could be at increased risk for blood
clotting. The body's immune system sees bubbles as an invader, and will
attack them as such, including plateletts, so that could be a huge issue for
you.

Ibuprofen before the dive and helium in your mix is what I would do, if it
were me, but I guess that depends upon how serious the condition is in your
case.

Contact Milak.
suds - 17 Jul 2004 16:12 GMT
> > The hematologist prescribes golf.  He didn't take it very well when I told
> > him that golf is for people who've already given up.  I'll be contacting
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Contact Milak.

I already had a blood clot, thank you.  A "DVT" (
http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/mosby_factsheets/Deep_Vein_Thrombosis.html )
to be exact. That was the most painful thing I have ever been through.
Think of someone putting both hands around your calf and then digging their
thumbs into the soft flesh behind your knee with all their might.  That's
how it felt every time I tried to so much as sit upright for over a week.
The pain has subsided now but my right leg is still very swollen and will
remain so for some time.  Possibly the rest of my life.  I don't think I'm
going to be able to hide this from the doctors.   ;^)

Who is "Milak."

suds
Scott - 17 Jul 2004 16:40 GMT
> >Contact Milak.
>
> I already had a blood clot, thank you.  A "DVT" (

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/mosby_factsheets/Deep_Vein_Thrombosis.html )
> to be exact. That was the most painful thing I have ever been through.
> Think of someone putting both hands around your calf and then digging their
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Who is "Milak."

Sir Randy Of Milak.

Hyperbaric physician and gentleman extraordinairre.

rfmilak@yahoo.com
Dan Volker - 19 Jul 2004 21:06 GMT
> The hematologist prescribes golf.  He didn't take it very well when I told
> him that golf is for people who've already given up.  I'll be contacting
> DAN.  There is no way I'm just going to roll over and die.
>
> suds

Suds,
Doctors don't know much about curing illness--they and the pharmaceutical
industry specialize in "identifying symptoms" that they can treat for the
rest of your life;-)

My advice to you is to avoid these parasites as much as possible, and get a
totally different perspective---
Try going to the http://www.mercola.com/  website, spend some time reading
there, and then get the Total Health cookbook.

Also, visit  http://www.gardenoflifeusa.com/   and read about
probiotics---and get the Primal Defense product asap. This product is
NOTHING like any other probiotic --its nothing like yogurt or acidophilus
pills....it can actually make tremendous health changes in people by making
them much healthier in their intestinal tract ( where most people are quite
unhealthy, particularly if they tend to eat sugar, breads, pastas or take
antibiotics occasionally). I doubt they can promise you the Primal Defense
will cure you, but articles in independent research publications, which
cover the Homeostatic Soil Organisms  ( do a yahoo  search) which are
central to Primal Defense, indicate these have enormous ramification to a
very wide range of illnesses. Even perhaps to yours. It would be worth
checking on....

Below is one search result from Yahoo--note it discusses blood effects later
in the article:

HSOs
(Homeostatic Soil OrganismsT)
Clinical Studies
    In 1993, three single-blind, placebo-controlled studies on HSOsT were
conducted at the Dispensario Medico, Partido de la Revolucion Democratica, a
medical dispensary in Irapuato, Mexico. The researchers wanted to find out
whether Homeostatic Soil OrganismsT could help people with high cholesterol
and leukemia. They also wanted to see if the HSOsT made test subjects feel
more energetic and improved memory and concentration.

     * High cholesterol: Seventy patients with blood cholesterol counts
higher than 300 milligrams per deciliter were given HSOs or a placebo.
Subjects given the HSOsT saw their total blood cholesterol count drop by 25
percent or more; the placebo subjects showed no change.

     * Energy levels, memory and concentration: Seventy patients with no
known pathologies were given HSOsT or a placebo. Thirty-three of the 35
subjects given HSOsT reported feeling more energetic and vital. HGB
(hemoglobin) levels and red blood cell counts increased moderately in 33
subjects. In the placebo group, no subjects reported an increase in energy
or vitality levels. Only two subjects out of 33 (two subjects dropped out of
the study) saw their HGB levels increase. In only one subject did the red
blood cell count increase. Conspicuous increases in memory and concentration
improved in 28 out of 35 test patients with only 1 improving in the placebo
group.

     * Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia stage II: Thirty-five subjects with
chronic lymphocytic leukemia (CLL) were given HSOsT. The director of
research reported that HSOs "attenuated the symptoms of approximately 80
percent of the treated patients." In 80 percent of the subjects, white blood
cell counts improved.

     Results from additional studies:

     * In a study conducted at Bio Inova Life Sciences Laboratories under
the direction of Pierre Braquet, PhD. and Jean Michel Mencia-Juerta, PhD.,
researchers attempted to identify the anti-microbial properties of Primal
DefenseT HSOsT. They were found to be effective in inhibiting various
pathogenic microorganisms, including Psuedomonus aeruginosa, a
disease-causing microorganism.

     * Another study conducted at Bio Inova Life Sciences Laboratories
evaluated the effectiveness of Primal DefenseT HSOsT on the immune system.
In this study, researchers looked at natural killer (NK) cells and
macrophage function. Natural killer cells roam the bloodstream looking for
and destroying foreign-invader cells. Macrophages are large white blood
cells that also serve the immune system by killing foreign invaders. In the
study, Primal DefenseT were found to boost the immune system by enhancing
the function of natural killer cells and macrophage function.

     * In another study at Bio Inova Life Sciences Laboratories, Primal
DefenseT HSOsT were examined with a view toward how they affect cancer
cells. They were shown to inhibit the proliferation of cancer cells in the
breast, liver and lung.

     * In another study at Bio Inova Life Sciences Laboratories, Primal
DefenseT HSOsT were shown to enhance the production of healthy cells in the
colon which may positively effect those suffering from severe digestive
disorders, and oxidative stress.

     * In an open-label, 120-day clinical pilot study conducted by Paul A.
Goldberg, M.P.H, D.C. at the Goldberg Clinic in Marietta, Georgia, 16
individuals suffering from complex digestive and immune-system disorders
were given Primal DefenseT HSOsT for 120 days. The subject's
gastrointestinal and immune system disorders had been resistant to
conventional and complimentary treatments. They had a variety of chronic
diseases that were unresponsive to medical intervention for a minimum of
three years. The subjects ranged in age from 20 to 65. No dietary or
lifestyle changes were made. Fifteen of the 16 subjects reported clinical
improvements in their overall health. They had partial to full relief from
troublesome bowel problems, decreases in asthmatic symptoms, increases in
energy levels, improvements in skin conditions, improvement in chronic sinus
infection, and general improvement in overall well-being. No subjects
reported a worsening of their symptoms. Eight of nine subjects with elevated
yeast levels as verified by stool and/or blood tests had a significant
reduction in Candida yeast growth. Three subjects with asthma had a 50
percent or greater reduction in usage of inhalant medications and asthma
symptoms. One subject, a physician with chronic pulmonary fungal infection,
reported greater ease in breathing and improvement in spirometer readings as
evidenced by her medical pulmonologist. Moreover, three subjects who
suffered from long-term chronic constipation and had laxative dependency
were able to move their bowels daily without the use of laxatives. Three
subjects with chronic IBS showed between 25 and 100 percent improvement.
Four patients with chronic fatigue syndrome were completely free of symptoms
by the end of the 120-day period. Before and after blood tests and physical
examinations showed that no subject experienced a worsening of conditions or
exhibited any evidence of toxicity.

     Clinical placebo controlled studies were conducted at the Peoples
University of the Americas in Ponce, Puerto Rico.

     * A 90-day, 70-patient, blind placebo-controlled clinical study
published in Progress in Nutrition, evaluated the effectiveness of Primal
DefenseT HSOsT as a primary treatment for chronic digestive disorder and
malabsorption syndrome. Thirty-one patients in the study group and 14
patients in the placebo group completed the study. Some 52 percent of those
taking Primal DefenseT achieved full remission of symptoms; 32 percent of
the participants achieved greater than 40 percent improvement of symptoms;
no subjects had zero improvement of symptoms or a worsening of symptoms.

     According to the director of the study, Primal DefenseT qualifies as
an accomplished therapy with "significant efficacy" for treating chronic
digestive disorders coupled with malabsorption syndrome.

     Additional data from studies conducted on Primal DefenseT HSOs showed
the following results:

     1) Individuals consuming Primal Defense had a marked increase in blood
levels of several key enzymes including Amylase, Lipase and Protease.

     2) After consuming Primal DefenseT, 18 individuals with low blood
protein levels at the beginning of the study had an increase in blood
protein levels which signifies improved absorption and utilization of
protein from the diet.

     3) Individuals consuming Primal DefenseT had a marked improvement in
symptoms of anemia and the use of the product seemed to have a "blood
building" effect.

     4) Individuals consuming Primal DefenseT had a marked improvement in
blood levels of key minerals.

     5) Individuals consuming Primal DefenseT with abnormal immune markers
showed a trend towards a modulation of the immune system as evidenced by a
decrease in White Blood Cells an increase in Neutrophiles a normalization of
Lymphocytes and a decrease in elevated Monocytes, Eosinophiles and
Basophiles.

     In addition, a significant number of beneficial observations were made
in the course of the studies. These were beyond the scope of the established
protocol and therefore were not incorporated into the official reports
published in Progress in Nutrition:

     * Fourteen patients (nine females, five males) reported remarkable
increases in their energy levels beginning toward the end of the second
month and continuing through the full course of treatment.

     * Three female patients having suffered from chronic, recurrent
migraine headaches, reported total remission from their headaches by study's
end.

     * Six patients (five females, one male) having suffered from various
grades of chronic skin rash, reported total remission of these symptoms.

     * Six patients (four females, two males) reported significant
vanishing of some of their facial wrinkles by the end of the study.

Best of Luck,
Dan Volker
Dan Volker - 21 Jul 2004 12:50 GMT
     Why Doctors Are 9,000 Times More Likely to Accidentally Kill You Than
Gun Owners

     A widely publicized report saying that as many as 98,000 people die
each year in the United States from medical errors is conservative, and the
number is probably much larger than that. The estimate by the Institute of
Medicine (IOM) is low because it looked only at deaths of patients at
hospitals. The Institute is a private, nonprofit organization that provides
health policy advice under a congressional charter to the National Academy
of Sciences.

     Janet M. Corrigan is the IOM's director of health care services. The
Institute is a private, nonprofit organization that provides health policy
advice under a congressional charter to the National Academy of Sciences.
She told reporters at a Capitol Hill briefing May 8 that the study did not
look at medical-error deaths at nursing homes, emergency rooms or in
doctors' offices. The mortality estimates are low also because most of the
information was based on medical record reviews. Medical errors are a
problem that has been hidden from the public for far to long.

     COMMENT: Even worse than the original article (click here) reported,
and the original study was bad enough.

     ( from http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/7/healthcare_death.htm   Modern
Health Care System is the Leading Cause of Death, Part I)

     Here are some other numbers to ponder:

     Number of physicians in the US = 700,000
     Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year = 120,000
     Accidental deaths per physician = 0.171

     Number of gun owners in the US = 80,000,000
     Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups) = 1,500
     Accidental deaths per gun owner = 0.0000188

     Therefore, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than
gun owners.

     Return To Table of Contents Issue #153
Dillon Pyron - 21 Jul 2004 19:12 GMT
>      Why Doctors Are 9,000 Times More Likely to Accidentally Kill You Than
>Gun Owners

They call it "medical misadventure" because it sounds better.

>      A widely publicized report saying that as many as 98,000 people die
>each year in the United States from medical errors is conservative, and the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>      Number of physicians in the US = 700,000
>      Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year = 120,000

This is more than ALL firearms related deaths, not just accident.

>      Accidental deaths per physician = 0.171
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>      Return To Table of Contents Issue #153

Signature

dillon

When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.

Dan Volker - 21 Jul 2004 21:24 GMT
> >      Here are some other numbers to ponder:
> >
> >      Number of physicians in the US = 700,000
> >      Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year = 120,000
>
> This is more than ALL firearms related deaths, not just accident.

Making Doctors even MORE likely to kill you than guns ;-)

In case its not obvious, I have a very low opinion of Doctors in general,
and even less  respect for their "medical opinions".
Suds is being scammed by them now, as they atempt to put him on a gravy
train for them and the pharmeceutical industry,  for the rest of his
life-shortened as it would be by medical treatment of symptoms rather than
providing him with a way to CURE his problem.

Its like, if the engine in your car is overheating, and the red warning
light is coming on, the Medical response would be to treat the symptom---to
cut off the warning light, and in some cases, to try and blow more air at
the hot engine....No thought would exist to figure out why the engine was
overheating--friction, bad oil, etc... this would be outside their purvey.

Their are a huge number of nutrition based solution for Suds and most people
on this NG who have health problems. Doctors are part of the problem, and
rarely part of the solution. Again, first research Paleolithic foods in
google or yahoo, then spend a few hours going through www.mercola.com , then
check out http://www.gardenoflifeusa.com/product_landing.shtml   for issues
relating to health through digestion....I would expect that for 90% of the
people in Rec.scuba with some form of health problem, these resources would
be far more valuable than anything some parasitic doctor is going to
provide.  Why am I so sure ? Do many divers like sugary food and sodas? Do
many divers like doughnuts? Are many divers bordering on obese or fairly
overweight? Do many divers suffer from some form of chronic or frequent
inflamation or arthritis? Each of these issues is dealt with far better by
the resources here, than it could be by your typical quack doctor and local
drugstore.
And no, I have nothing to do with these companies or websites--I have seen
the results from these however, and they have to be seen to be believed.

Regards,
Dan Volker

Dan V

> >      Accidental deaths per physician = 0.171
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> >      Return To Table of Contents Issue #153
 
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