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Scuba Forum / General / July 2004

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Introductory Dive Lesson

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John Smith - 03 Jul 2004 22:45 GMT
I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next time
I'm there.

It's desribed as classroom followed with a closely supervised dive.

Any reason not to do this?

JS
Rudy Benner - 03 Jul 2004 22:53 GMT
Good idea, however, you can take the time to do a little pre-study of the
principles of scuba. Any dive shop will have a book. Some knowledge of the
inherit hazards cannot do you any harm.

Have fun.

> I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next time
> I'm there.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> JS

Good idea, however, you can take the time to do a little pre-study of the
principles of scuba. Any dive shop will have a book. Some knowledge of the
inherit hazards cannot do you any harm.
John Smith - 03 Jul 2004 23:23 GMT
> Good idea, however, you can take the time to do a little pre-study of the
> principles of scuba. Any dive shop will have a book. Some knowledge of the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> principles of scuba. Any dive shop will have a book. Some knowledge of the
> inherit hazards cannot do you any harm.

That's a good idea.  I like reading.  I like minimizing the unknown as
much as I enjoy a good surprise now and then.  In fact, I'm out the door
right now to my nearest dive shop for a book.

Thanks,

JS
Jammer Six - 03 Jul 2004 23:02 GMT
> I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next time
> I'm there.
>
> It's desribed as classroom followed with a closely supervised dive.
>
> Any reason not to do this?

Well, you could die...

Signature

"We're going to rush the hijackers."
    -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

John Smith - 03 Jul 2004 23:22 GMT
> € I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next time
> € I'm there.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Well, you could die...

That was useful.  Thank you.  JS
Rich Lockyer - 04 Jul 2004 02:51 GMT
>> > I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next time
>> > I'm there.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>That was useful.  Thank you.  JS

He is right.

Catalina is not the same as a nice comfy warm water tropical location.

And even THOSE "resort course" divers are exposed to hazards that they
are not aware of.

The training and supervision on these dives is far below what is
needed to safely dive.

To put it another way....

There were 17 deaths on Scuba in the month of June.

TWO of those were OW students doing their checkout dives.  They had
been through the "full" (cough) 4 days of classroom training and
"full" (cough) 4 confined water dives AND 4 open water training dives.
These divers were one dive away from having their OW cards and being
turned loose to the world and to any cattle boat that would allow them
on board.  You could be buddied up with one of them.

Two didn't get that card.

Those in the same classes that did are the ones that worry me.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
chilly - 04 Jul 2004 07:53 GMT
(snip)> turned loose to the world and to any cattle boat that would allow
them
> on board.  You could be buddied up with one of them.
>
> Two didn't get that card.
>
> Those in the same classes that did are the ones that worry me.

I was talking with some non-divers (but travellers) tonight.  They have
friends that got their training on the boat on the way out to the site and
then went to 40' or so.  Everyone (the non-divers that is) kept trying to
tell me that it wasn't that big a deal because no one hat gone very deep.

By the time, our convo had concluded . . .I believe they had a more clear
picture of what is what.
Rich Lockyer - 04 Jul 2004 08:08 GMT
>I was talking with some non-divers (but travellers) tonight.  They have
>friends that got their training on the boat on the way out to the site and
>then went to 40' or so.  Everyone (the non-divers that is) kept trying to
>tell me that it wasn't that big a deal because no one hat gone very deep.

That's what I thought after I survived my four resort course dives.

Of course, I survived the dives with a SEVERE case of middle ear
barotrauma that took several weeks to heal.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
chilly - 04 Jul 2004 08:17 GMT
> >I was talking with some non-divers (but travellers) tonight.  They have
> >friends that got their training on the boat on the way out to the site and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Of course, I survived the dives with a SEVERE case of middle ear
> barotrauma that took several weeks to heal.

They did talk about one guy that had freaked and started sucking water.
They were impressed with the concern for safety shown . . . because the
guides made him get back on the boat right away.  LOL
Jon C - 05 Jul 2004 00:04 GMT
> > ? I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next
time
> > ? I'm there.
> > ?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> That was useful.  Thank you.  JS

Ignore these guys.  Diving isn't nearly as deadly as they want to think it
is.  Jammer especially is the leader of a sect of divers around here who
demean and threaten with death everyone who doesn't dive *exactly* the way
they do (and for everyone else listening, I mean "a.sholes," not "DIR").  No
one really pays attention to them, trust me.

Have a healthy respect for the water, pay good attention during the
classroom session, do a little pre-studying and you'll be all set.

Don't hold your breath, ever, even if your regulator is gone.

Don't go up too fast.

Don't go down too far

You'll be fine, and if you have fun, consider taking a real SCUBA course.
It's a blast.  And it's really quite easy and safe.
Scott - 05 Jul 2004 00:27 GMT
> Ignore these guys.  Diving isn't nearly as deadly as they want to think it
> is.  Jammer especially is the leader of a sect of divers around here who
> demean and threaten with death everyone who doesn't dive *exactly* the way
> they do.

A little over the top, there, don't 'cha think?

I don't speak for him, but I am fairly certain that Jammer doesn't give a
tinkers cuss about how or what you do.

All he is trying to do (and is) is make people think for themselves.

Have a cup of coffee with him and you'll know who it is you are bashing.
Jammer Six - 05 Jul 2004 00:30 GMT
> Have a cup of coffee with him and you'll know who it is you are bashing.

He's not qualified.

Signature

"We're going to rush the hijackers."
    -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

Rich Lockyer - 05 Jul 2004 03:35 GMT
>> Have a cup of coffee with him and you'll know who it is you are bashing.
>
>He's not qualified.

He's not a DM?

Oh... Scott said HAVE... not GET.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
nospam@all.please.net - 05 Jul 2004 00:42 GMT
>> > � I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next
> time
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Don't go down too far

The rules are pretty simple.

Do not: stop breathing too long, go too deep, stay too long, ascend
too fast, ascend to altitude too soon afterward. Almost everything
is detail or corollary.

> You'll be fine, and if you have fun, consider taking a real SCUBA course.
> It's a blast.  And it's really quite easy and safe.

I agree. The hormonally macho poseurs will try to convince you otherwise,
but it's safer than driving and no more difficult.
chilly - 05 Jul 2004 07:57 GMT
(snip)>
> Don't hold your breath, ever, even if your regulator is gone.

That's your advice?  What should he do then, blow all of his air at once, or
just what?

If you are going to give that kind of advice, you might just want to expand
on it a bit.

> Don't go up too fast.

What's too fast?

> Don't go down too far

What's too far?

> You'll be fine, and if you have fun, consider taking a real SCUBA course.
> It's a blast.  And it's really quite easy and safe.

If he's that interested, he should take a real SCUBA course in the first
place, and then all of your half-assed advice might be of some marginal
benefit.
Rich Lockyer - 05 Jul 2004 08:04 GMT
>If he's that interested, he should take a real SCUBA course in the first
>place, and then all of your half-assed advice might be of some marginal
>benefit.

That half assed advice is what was written on the little cards that
came with tanks in 1955.

Okay... so maybe modern dive training is better than it was at one
time :)

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
chilly - 05 Jul 2004 08:42 GMT
> Okay... so maybe modern dive training is better than it was at one
> time :)

Do ya think so?

OK, this is totally unrelated to the current thread, but I couldn't be
bothered to go and find a thread it works with.

In any event, by complete fluke, this website came up while I searching for
something benign and totally unrelated to what came up.  It's weird and cool
. . .

http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html
Rich Lockyer - 05 Jul 2004 21:35 GMT
>> Okay... so maybe modern dive training is better than it was at one
>> time :)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html

So don't let it be said that the US doesn't correct it's mistakes.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
John Smith - 05 Jul 2004 08:47 GMT
> (snip)>
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> place, and then all of your half-assed advice might be of some marginal
> benefit.

I don't want to get between anyone in this pissing match; I just want
some replies to the idea of an introductory scuba dive while I'm in
Catalina.  Fortunately, I've received two contrasting views on this
question.

This brief back and forth between posters has given me a pretty good
idea of questions I might want to ask when I get there; before I sign on
for a dive.

Finally, this is just a rhetorical question, how can I know if I'm THAT
interested if I don't get my feet wet?  An intro dive (short duration,
shallow, and supervised) seems like a good way to find out whether I
want to spend time and money on an expensive activity that I THINK I'm
interested in.

Thanks for sharing your views!

JS
chilly - 05 Jul 2004 09:13 GMT
> I don't want to get between anyone in this pissing match;

If you hang out here on rec.scuba, you are bound to get into a pissing
match.  Nature of the beast.  ;^)

>I just want
> some replies to the idea of an introductory scuba dive while I'm in
> Catalina.  Fortunately, I've received two contrasting views on this
> question.

Fortunately?

> This brief back and forth between posters has given me a pretty good
> idea of questions I might want to ask when I get there; before I sign on
> for a dive.

There ya go.

> Finally, this is just a rhetorical question, how can I know if I'm THAT
> interested if I don't get my feet wet?

Well, for me, I was a bit like you.  I'd been thinking of it for years but
didn't get around to taking any lessons.

I went on a vacation to Mexico. While there, we went on a tour that included
a snorkel at Shel Ha.  I quickly realized that it just wasn't enough for me.
Within days of my return home, I signed up for lessons.  It was one of the
best things I've ever done in my life.

For years prior, I was really into snow skiing.  I went every weekend as
soon as the season started and easily half of my annual vacations were spent
skiing. Eventually, I took up sailboarding too.  Once I got into that, I was
hooked.

Since I've taken up diving, as much fun as my other activities were, I'm no
longer interested in skiing or sailboarding.

>An intro dive (short duration,
> shallow, and supervised) seems like a good way to find out whether I
> want to spend time and money on an expensive activity that I THINK I'm
> interested in.

Well, your choice.

> Thanks for sharing your views!

You will certainly get "views" here and mine should be quite clear.  Take a
full course, you will be better able to decide if diving is right for you.
What you are planning might be enough to give you a clue, but if it doesn't
go well, you'll never know for sure if diving was the right choice for you.
Jammer Six - 05 Jul 2004 12:55 GMT
> Thanks for sharing your views!

He's gone.

Signature

"A bunch of us went down to Gettysburg.
Some of us didn't come back.
If you weren't there, you'll never understand."  -Unknown Infantryman

Rich Lockyer - 05 Jul 2004 21:37 GMT
>Finally, this is just a rhetorical question, how can I know if I'm THAT
>interested if I don't get my feet wet?  An intro dive (short duration,
>shallow, and supervised) seems like a good way to find out whether I
>want to spend time and money on an expensive activity that I THINK I'm
>interested in.

An open water class doesn't cost that much more than the intro class.

IIRC, my resort course, 2 dives, in Grand Cayman was about $120.
My OW class was $150, including equipment rental.

Time was really the only investment.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
Randy Buckner - 06 Jul 2004 01:46 GMT
> I don't want to get between anyone in this pissing match; I just want
> some replies to the idea of an introductory scuba dive while I'm in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> want to spend time and money on an expensive activity that I THINK I'm
> interested in.

You won't know if you don't just dive in, literally.  Ignore the BS that
flies around this place and go enjoy your intro dive -- they're pretty safe.
If the bug bites you, then get into a certification program, keep an open
mind, read, learn, and ask questions -- don't take everything you're told as
gospel.  Above all, dive, dive, dive.  Every dive is (should be) a learning
experience.  Enjoy yourself.
Steve - 06 Jul 2004 04:02 GMT
> Finally, this is just a rhetorical question, how can I know if I'm THAT
> interested if I don't get my feet wet?  An intro dive (short duration,
> shallow, and supervised) seems like a good way to find out whether I
> want to spend time and money on an expensive activity that I THINK I'm
> interested in.

If you think you're interested then you almost certainly will be interested when you
get around to it. I suppose you could go diving and decide you don't like it, but the
more likely problem would be having issues with breathing while underwater rather
than thinking diving is boring. You might be able to find out if you have any
problems with the breathing underwater part of it for free at a dive shop that offers
an introductory pool session. Assuming everything goes well, it would probably be
completely safe to spend the few hundred bucks that is the upper limit for a basic OW
course and mask, fins and snorkel.

My humble opinion is that resort courses are usually quite safe, but I'm sure there
are rare exceptions. Arguably, the riskiest part of a resort course will be a
too-rapid ascent. Sure, you might just out and out drown, but while almost nobody
drowns on a resort course, almost everybody has poor buoyancy control. In nice warm
tropical water, where you don't have a wetsuit, poor buoyancy probably means that you
have a bit of trouble maintaining a consistent depth and swim with a bit of an up or
down angle to maintain your depth. In the cold waters off of California, OTOH, you'll
be wearing a nice, fat neoprene wetsuit, which will increase the buoyancy issues. At
the surface it will take perhaps 15 pounds of lead to sink the suit (not counting
what it takes to sink you), but at 40 feet the suit will compress, making you several
pounds heavy. To overcome the heavyness (negative buoyancy) you'll have to put some
air in the BC, and each time you ascend or descend a bit that air, and the bubbles in
the neoprene, will expand or contract, changing your buoyancy. When you ascend to the
surface that expanding air can potentially result in a runaway ascent, making a cold
water resort course more likely to be dangerous than a warm water one. If that
happens, the air that's inside you will also expand, and can potentially cause any of
several unpleasant things to happen. That scenario is one of the reasons that
instructors tend to overweight students. They'd rather have you work a bit to not
sink as an alternative to a rapid ascent. As long as you vent most of the air before
ascending, and stay a bit heavy, it's hard to get out of control, though you'll
probably still pop up the last few feet a bit fast. As was said earlier, keep
breathing so any expanding air simply goes out your mouth.

You'd almost certainly be safer taking a real OW course first, but the risks on the
resort course are really quite small.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

John Smith - 06 Jul 2004 05:11 GMT
> If you think you're interested then you almost certainly will be
> interested when you get around to it. I suppose you could go diving and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> probably be completely safe to spend the few hundred bucks that is the
> upper limit for a basic OW course and mask, fins and snorkel.

> You'd almost certainly be safer taking a real OW course first, but the
> risks on the resort course are really quite small.

You have touched on one of the questions I'd like an answer to.  I would
like to know that I can physically tolerate diving.  Your suggestion to
find a dive shop that offers an introductory pool session is great.  I'm
not sure that 8 feet is going to tell me anything about diving
tolerance, since I already know I can sit at the bottom of a pool, but
it's a start.

I appreciate all the safety concern expressed by this ng; I try to
convey the same message re: boating.

Again, thanks to everyone for the constructive ideas.

JS
Steve - 06 Jul 2004 06:15 GMT
> You have touched on one of the questions I'd like an answer to.  I would
> like to know that I can physically tolerate diving.  Your suggestion to
> find a dive shop that offers an introductory pool session is great.  I'm
> not sure that 8 feet is going to tell me anything about diving
> tolerance, since I already know I can sit at the bottom of a pool, but
> it's a start.

I may not have been clear enough the first time around, depending on your meaning
about sitting on the bottom. Virtually everybody is capable of
physically/physiologically tolerating diving. Some portion of the people who try
diving will be unable to psychologically tolerate it. Of perhaps 10 people in the
pool session of the resort course that I took, one was simply unable to put his face
in the water and breathe from the regulator. That only takes 6 inches of water to
find out. With perseverance he could probably have managed, but with no real
investment in the outcome he found it easy enough to simply make different plans for
the afternoon. In my wife's OW class 1 of about 6 students hada great deal of
difficulty with some of the early skills. I forget the details, but she either had
trouble breathing from the reg at all or had trouble doing so with her mask off.

In my resort course the guy who bailed lost nothing but the 2 hours of classroom
time, since we were at a Sandals Resort and hadn't specifically paid for the course.
It would suck to lay out $100 and then find out 5 minutes into the pool session that
you weren't going to get what you paid for. Assuming the outfit you want to do the
resort course with runs OW classes, you could probably get a chance to just breathe
from a reg when they're having one of their regular pool sessions. Alternatively, you
might find a shop that is running an afternoon intro to attract students, and spend
30 minutes laying on the bottom of the pool and have to be dragged out, like one of
my friends did.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Jammer Six - 06 Jul 2004 07:58 GMT
> Virtually everybody is capable of physically/physiologically
> tolerating diving.

Not even close.

Signature

"We're going to rush the hijackers."
    -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

Jammer Six - 06 Jul 2004 06:17 GMT
> I would like to know that I can physically tolerate diving.

No, you can't.

Diving (and living) requires learning.

Signature

"I know we're going to die. There's three of us who are going to do something
about it."
    -Tom Burnett, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

Jammer Six - 05 Jul 2004 12:54 GMT
> If you are going to give that kind of advice, you might just want to
> expand on it a bit.

Won't do any good.

The newbie doesn't know how to learn.

He'll never dive.

Signature

"I know we're going to die. There's three of us who are going to do something
about it."
    -Tom Burnett, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

John Smith - 06 Jul 2004 04:57 GMT
> € If you are going to give that kind of advice, you might just want to
> € expand on it a bit.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> He'll never dive.

Am I the newbie who doesn't know how to learn?  If so, WTF are you
smoking!  If not, never mind.

JS
Jammer Six - 06 Jul 2004 06:16 GMT
> > > If you are going to give that kind of advice, you might just want to
> > > expand on it a bit.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> JS

That's what we like to see.

Walk in, yell "hey, STUPID!" and wait for someone to jump up and answer.

The summer hatch is right on time.

Signature

"We're going to rush the hijackers."
    -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

K Walker - 06 Jul 2004 12:29 GMT
>> Won't do any good.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>JS

John,

Killfile him.  There is no point in responding to the voices in his
head.
Rich Lockyer - 07 Jul 2004 03:58 GMT
>>> Won't do any good.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Killfile him.  There is no point in responding to the voices in his
>head.

Ya... that's the way to do it.

He was in my killfile when I finally realized that he WAS right and I
learned how to learn.

We've just agreed to disagree over my preference in cylinders.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
Jammer Six - 07 Jul 2004 04:17 GMT
> He was in my killfile when I finally realized that he WAS right and I
> learned how to learn.

Am I still in your killfile?

Signature

"I know we're going to die. There's three of us who are going to do something
about it."
    -Tom Burnett, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

Rich Lockyer - 07 Jul 2004 07:53 GMT
>> He was in my killfile when I finally realized that he WAS right and I
>> learned how to learn.
>
>Am I still in your killfile?

Yes :)

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
Jammer Six - 07 Jul 2004 11:37 GMT
> >> He was in my killfile when I finally realized that he WAS right and I
> >> learned how to learn.
> >
> >Am I still in your killfile?
>
> Yes :)

That's what I thought.

Signature

"We're going to rush the hijackers."
    -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001

John Smith - 08 Jul 2004 01:09 GMT
>>>Won't do any good.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Killfile him.  There is no point in responding to the voices in his
> head.
If I killfile him, then the voices in my head won't be able to talk with
the voices in his head.

JS
Randy Buckner - 08 Jul 2004 18:51 GMT
> > ? If you are going to give that kind of advice, you might just want to
> > ? expand on it a bit.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> JS

See, I told you not to pay attention to the BS, but you went ahead and swam
out into the deep water and got fouled in the troll lines.  YOYO now. ;-)
mike gray - 04 Jul 2004 15:28 GMT
> I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next time
> I'm there.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> JS

Do it!

If ya enjoy the experience you'll become a diver.

If ya don't enjoy it, you haven't wasted a lot of time and money.

It'd be a shame to go through life never having tried it.
Adam Helberg - 05 Jul 2004 05:33 GMT
> I'm considering the introductory dive less at catalina island next time
> I'm there.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> JS

You should know that diving in warm water (Caribbean and Hawaii) will be much easier
than California diving. The thinner the suit the easier the diving.

Adam
Charlie Hammond - 12 Jul 2004 16:26 GMT
>I'm considering the introductory dive [class] at catalina island next time
>I'm there.
>
>It's desribed as classroom followed with a closely supervised dive.
>
>Any reason not to do this?

John --

This is what is generally called a "Resort Course", or a "Discover SCUBA"
experience.  Opinions vary as to the safety of these programs -- probably
because some dive operators may use this type of course as a way to
attract divers without giving proper instruction.

I have no idea what the dive operator at Cataline Island offers.
I suggest you ask to meet the instructor who will conduct the class.
His/her attitude is about the only way you can judget the safety
of the particular offering before hand.

My wife and I started SCUBA with an excellent Resourt Course at UNEXSO
in Lucaya, Freeport, Bahamas.  Others have had or seen less desirable
experiences.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

 
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