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Scuba Forum / General / May 2004Bad Experience In Key Largo
I got my certification about thirty years ago, but I live in Seattle where the diving isn't all that great. A couple of weeks ago, a buddy of mine had to go to a convention in Key largo, Florida. With the government picking up the cost of his airline ticket, rental car, and a nice condo on the beach, all I had to do was buy an airline ticket to get there. Cheap vacation! My buddy likes to snorkel, but he thought it would be fun to try scuba diving while we were in Key Largo. Of course he didn't want to spend the time and money to get certified, so he thought he might try one of these "scuba in a day" things they sell to the tourists at the resorts. I cautioned him against this, since I've always felt that scuba was too dangerous to do half-assed. Then I noticed something called "SNUBA" was available in Key Largo. I've seen the Hookah dive rigs, with their electric or gasoline powered compressors that float on the surface, with a long hose going down to the diver. However the Snuba rig just floated a regular scuba tank on the surface in a little inflatable collar, then ran a twenty foot hose down to a regulator for the diver. The hose was strapped to the diver's back, to avoid pulling the regulator out of the diver's mouth, when putting tension on the air hose to pull the floating air tank around after the diver. The cost for a Snuba dive was just under $100, about half the cost of a "scuba in a day" course, and only required an hour of pool time before the Snuba dive. My buddy really wanted to try it. I was still a bit skeptical, since it still used compressed air, and the word "embolism" came to mind. However a dive instructor, in full scuba gear, would always be nearby, and since the hose was only twenty feet long, I figured my buddy could probably handle that. Especially since he's been snorkeling for years, and free diving, and knows how to clear his ears on the way down. Seemed like it might be a nice way for him to fool around on the reef, without having to bob back to the surface for a breath. When we reported to the pool for my buddy's training session, I got a good look at the Snuba rig. The air tank had a three way valve on it, which meant as many as three people could be hooked up to the same tank at one time. The Snuba instructor said the dive would probably only last about twenty minutes, with three people sucking air out of the tank, but then he would provide a second tank for a second dive. All in all, the divers might get about an hour of underwater time. Or he might put two tanks on the float, and hook two hoses to each tank, for a total of four divers in the water at the same time. I tried to imagine four people, each on the end of a twenty foot air hose, all attached to the same surface float. Massive entanglement, anyone? I decided I'd better go along on this adventure, to keep my buddy out of trouble. The entertainment value alone would probably be worth the money. I also wondered how easy it would be to keep the floating tank, on the surface, from being pushed around by wind and currents. Obviously the divers below, hooked to the air lines, would have to tow the raft behind them, against the wind and current. If the wind was blowing hard, this might get interesting! I also wondered how easy it would be to maneuver around, underwater, with three other people attached to the same floating rig on the surface. What happens if everyone goes off in different directions. Scuba on a leash? Since my buddy was scheduled to be tied up with his convention for a few days, so I decided to go try a Snuba dive, and see it made any sense for my buddy. Sadly, this show never got off the dock. The Snuba franchise in Key Largo is run by 21 year old kid named "Todd" (don't know his last name), and he runs the operation out of his van. He rents space for his Snuba customers with the established dive shops and their boats. Currently Todd seems to mostly work out of the Silent World dive center on Key Largo (run by Janet and Rick). Unfortunately, Todd runs his Snuba business as a part-time business on the side. The rest of the time he crews on the regular dive boats as a divemaster, or first mate, or whatever. So the Snuba business has to fit around Todd's busy work schedule. I scheduled a Snuba dive for Wednesday, but when we got to the dock, I found out that someone had fouled up the scheduling, and the boat was already full with regular scuba divers. No place for any Snuba divers. Another boat was going out at the same time, but it was taking scuba divers to a wreck in fifty feet of water. Todd offered to hook two Snuba hoses together, to let me go down to forty feet, but that would still be ten feet above the highest point of the wreck. I didn't much care for the idea. I also didn't care to be forty feet underwater, on the end of an air hose, with no reserve air supply. No thanks! Todd had to work on Thursday and Friday, so I rescheduled the Snuba dive for me and my buddy on Saturday. On Friday night, my buddy received an hour of pool time from Todd, using the Snuba setup to breathe on the bottom of the swimming pool at the Westin hotel. My buddy was quite comfortable with the rig, and was looking forward to trying it the next day. Todd also ran my credit card for the cost of the two Snuba dives ($200). The next day, Saturday, brought in a strong easterly wind, and reduced the water visibility to about three feet, forcing Todd had to cancel our Snuba dive for the second time. My buddy and me were scheduled to leave Key Largo on Monday, so that left only Sunday for a final Snuba attempt. But the weather forecast for Sunday didn't look good, and Todd wasn't even sure if he would be free that day. I told him to call me if the dive turned out to be possible. Sunday afternoon arrived without a word from Todd, so I figured he hadn't been able to schedule the Snuba dive. My buddy still wanted to see the reefs, so we hopped on the Quicksilver catamaran for a snorkel trip out to the reef. The catamaran was a nice ride, but the water visibility was still about three feet. Of course that didn't stop the Quicksilver people from taking out a full load of first-time tourists, and promising them amazing sights underwater. (How do these bastards sleep at night?) Needless to say, everyone on the snorkeling trip was quite disappointed. It was literally like snorkeling in a mud puddle, and the seas were running pretty strong. I felt especially sorry for a little 9 year old girl, out for her first snorkeling trip. You could see the disappointment on her face. Like going to Disneyland and finding it closed. Damn cattle boat operators! Oh well, at least the boat ride was fun. After I got back to Seattle, I contacted Todd and asked him issue me a credit for $200 for the two Snuba dives we had not been able to make. Todd refused to issue the refund. According to him, he had told me on Saturday that we would make a Snuba dive on Sunday unless he called to tell me differently. Since we didn't show up for the Snuba dives, we had to forfeit the $200. What a scam artist! Either Todd is a goddamned liar, or else he's too stupid to remember what he said the previous day. Maybe both. This is what happens when you deal with a one-man band who runs a diving business on the side. Now I'll have to contact Visa and ask them to remove the $200 charge from my credit card. Todd has promised to oppose any such effort, and even threatened to turn the whole thing over to his lawyer. (Yeah, right.) However since I tried to schedule the Snuba dive on three separate occasions, and never received the merchandise, I think Visa just might be more inclined to believe me, than Todd. Oh well, live and learn. Here's a couple of questions for the more experienced folk: Just how safe is a Snuba rig for a non-scuba user? I mean, does it really make any difference if the air tank is strapped to the diver's back, or floating on the surface? Seems like they'd be equally dangerous. Compressed air is compressed air, and the last I heard, it's not impossible to get an air embolism at twenty feet. My buddy asked Todd what he should do if the air supply suddenly failed, underwater, but Todd never answered the question. Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from ripping you off? I was dumb enough to let him run my credit card the day before we were scheduled to dive. Then when the idiot failed to notify us that the dive was on, for Sunday, all he had to do was claim that I failed to show up, and keep the money. Next time should I wait to run the credit card until just before boarding the boat? Or is there a better way? Thanks! Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net > I got my certification about thirty years ago, but I live in Seattle where > the diving isn't all that great. I'd rather dive the Emerald Sea any day. Have you been across the border to dive the inside passage? Todd sounds like your typical thief, period. Let us know how Visa handles the situation. Scott >> I got my certification about thirty years ago, but I live in Seattle where >> the diving isn't all that great. >I'd rather dive the Emerald Sea any day. > >Have you been across the border to dive the inside passage? Not yet, but I know there are some fairly decent areas where the water is clearer than normal, and there is some sea life to observe. Awhile back, the Canadians sank a ship to make an artificial reef, and I hear that's doing pretty well. It's just hard to put up with 54 degree water when the tropics are only a plane ride away! >Todd sounds like your typical thief, period. Possibly. On the other hand, the guy is a 21 year old kid, with a wife and baby to support, trying to make a living by juggling about three different dive-related jobs, and running a Snuba business on the side. I think he has so many balls in the air at one time that he can't keep track of everything, forgets what he promised to do, and then gives himself the benefit of the doubt when a dispute arises. But it's not my problem if a guy can't run his business in a professional manner, and I have no intention of letting him keep my $200. >Let us know how Visa handles the situation. Will do! My guess is that I'm not the first person to have a credit card dispute with Todd Snuba of Key Largo, and that should weigh heavily in my favor. Also, I've never requested a charge cancellation before, so it's not like I make a habit of this sort of thing. If I don't get my money back, I'm going to set up a web page with all the details of my experience with Todd, and let the facts speak for themselves. I'll make sure that anyone who types "Snuba" and "Key largo" in the Goggle search engine gets an earful. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net > >> I got my certification about thirty years ago, but I live in Seattle where > >> the diving isn't all that great. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > But it's not my problem if a guy can't run his business in a professional > manner, and I have no intention of letting him keep my $200. Having only heard your side of the story, I'd be inclined to believe that you should get a refund. On the other hand, your buddy did go through the 1 hour course, so maybe Todd should get something for that (not the full amount by any means). You might call him back up and offer a "settlement" and see if your buddy will pitch in to cover whatever cost is incurred. If he refuses, a stop payment would definitely be the best option, IMO. >> But it's not my problem if a guy can't run his business in a professional >> manner, and I have no intention of letting him keep my $200. >Having only heard your side of the story, I'd be inclined to believe that >you should get a refund. On the other hand, your buddy did go through the 1 >hour course, so maybe Todd should get something for that (not the full >amount by any means). You might call him back up and offer a "settlement" >and see if your buddy will pitch in to cover whatever cost is incurred. If >he refuses, a stop payment would definitely be the best option, IMO. I told Todd from the start that he could keep the entire $45 for the pool training session for my buddy. Fair is fair. Todd delivered the goods, in that case. And my buddy did get to play around with the Snuba gadget in the hotel pool. All I ever asked for was my $200 back for the two Snuba dives we never got to make. I'll give Todd another day or two make the refund, and then I'll contact Visa and ask for a stop payment. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net > I told Todd from the start that he could keep the entire $45 for the pool > training session for my buddy. Fair is fair. Todd delivered the goods, in > that case. And my buddy did get to play around with the Snuba gadget in > the hotel pool. You're more generous than I am. Personally, I see the pool training session as part of a package deal. In my personal opinion, he hasn't delivered anything until he's delivered everything. It's a bit like a mechanic. If I contract to have my car fixed, I don't pay him for taking it apart unles he puts it back together again. It's your money and your choice. > All I ever asked for was my $200 back for the two Snuba dives we never got > to make. I'll give Todd another day or two make the refund, and then I'll > contact Visa and ask for a stop payment. The Visa people may understand what you're talking about, but what you're looking for is not a stop payment. You are disputing the charge because, through no fault of your own, you did not receive the goods or services. Here's a quote from the relavent federal regulations. This applies to all banks and all credit card companies operating in the United States. I strongly suggest you not hesitate in disputing the amount. While the law is on your side, it is almost always easier to resolve something like this in your favor before your credit card company pays the merchant than it is afterwards. Act quickly enough and they can stop it before the money leaves their hands. Act too slow, and the credit card company has to get the money back from the merchant, who you already know won't be cooperative, or lose it themselves. By law, it's their risk, but they're not fond of losses they may never be able to recover. A billing dispute is between you and the credit card company. It does not, in itself, imply anything about the merchant. Of course, the merchant can say a lot about himself in the process, but that's his risk, not yours. We're talking about your rights under the consumer protection laws of the US. They are for you and you are entitled to exercise them freely. The following is a bit hard to read since my source information includes footnotes within the text of the regulation. Every time you see a \27\ or other number, it's a footnote which should follow immediately and be set off by -------------- above and below the footnote. I suggest you read through the regulation first, skipping the foot notes, and then come back and see what the footnotes do to change your understanding. If, after reading through the text, you can't figure out what it's saying, contact me by e-mail and I'll try to explain it further. I don't particularly want to get into a long discussion here. Lee Regulation Z, Federal Trust in Lending Act - 12 CFR 226 Section 13 Billing error resolution.\27\ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \27\ A creditor shall not accelerate any part of the consumer's indebtedness or restrict or close a consumer's account solely because the consumer has exercised in good faith rights provided by this section. A creditor may be subject to the forfeiture penalty under section 161(e) of the Act for failure to comply with any of the requirements of this section. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (a) Definition of billing error. For purposes of this section, the term billing error means: (1) A reflection on or with a periodic statement of an extension of credit that is not made to the consumer or to a person who has actual, implied, or apparent authority to use the consumer's credit card or open-end credit plan. (2) A reflection on or with a periodic statement of an extension of credit that is not identified in accordance with the requirements of Secs. 226.7(b) and 226.8. (3) A reflection on or with a periodic statement of an extension of credit for property or services not accepted by the consumer or the consumer's designee, or not delivered to the consumer or the consumer's designee as agreed. (4) A reflection on a periodic statement of the creditor's failure to credit properly a payment or other credit issued to the consumer's account. (5) A reflection on a periodic statement of a computational or similar error of an accounting nature that is made by the creditor. (6) A reflection on a periodic statement of an extension of credit for which the consumer requests additional clarification, including documentary evidence. (7) The creditor's failure to mail or deliver a periodic statement to the consumer's last known address if that address was received by the creditor, in writing, at least 20 days before the end of the billing cycle for which the statement was required. (b) Billing error notice.\28\ A billing error notice is a written notice \29\ from a consumer that: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \28\ The creditor need not comply with the requirements of paragraphs (c) through (g) of this section if the consumer concludes that no billing error occurred and voluntarily withdraws the billing error notice. \29\ The creditor may require that the written notice not be made on the payment medium or other material accompanying the periodic statement if the creditor so stipulates in the billing rights statement required by Secs. 226.6(d) and 226.9(a). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) Is received by a creditor at the address disclosed under Sec. 226.7(k) no later than 60 days after the creditor transmitted the first periodic statement that reflects the alleged billing error; (2) Enables the creditor to identify the consumer's name and account number; and (3) To the extent possible, indicates the consumer's belief and the reasons for the belief that a billing error exists, and the type, date, and amount of the error. (c) Time for resolution; general procedures. (1) The creditor shall mail or deliver written acknowledgment to the consumer within 30 days of receiving a billing error notice, unless the creditor has complied with the appropriate resolution procedures of paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, as applicable, within the 30-day period; and (2) The creditor shall comply with the appropriate resolution procedures of paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, as applicable, within 2 complete billing cycles (but in no event later than 90 days) after receiving a billing error notice. (d) Rules pending resolution. Until a billing error is resolved under paragraph (e) or (f) of this section, the following rules apply: (1) Consumer's right to withhold disputed amount; collection action prohibited. The consumer need not pay (and the creditor may not try to collect) any portion of any required payment that the consumer believes is related to the disputed amount (including related finance or other charges).\30\ If the cardholder maintains a deposit account with the card issuer and has agreed to pay the credit card indebtedness by periodic deductions from the cardholder's deposit account, the card issuer shall not deduct any part of the disputed amount or related finance or other charges if a billing error notice is received any time up to 3 business days before the scheduled payment date. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \30\ A creditor is not prohibited from taking action to collect any undisputed portion of the item or bill; from deducting any disputed amount and related finance or other charges from the consumer's credit limit on the account; or from reflecting a disputed amount and related finance or other charges on a periodic statement, provided that the creditor indicates on or with the periodic statement that payment of any disputed amount and related finance or other charges is not required pending the creditor's compliance with this section. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (2) Adverse credit reports prohibited. The creditor or its agent shall not (directly or indirectly) make or threaten to make an adverse report to any person about the consumer's credit standing, or report that an amount or account is delinquent, because the consumer failed to pay the disputed amount or related finance or other charges. (e) Procedures if billing error occurred as asserted. If a creditor determines that a billing error occurred as asserted, it shall within the time limits in paragraph (c)(2) of this section: (1) Correct the billing error and credit the consumer's account with any disputed amount and related finance or other charges, as applicable; and (2) Mail or deliver a correction notice to the consumer. (f) Procedures if different billing error or no billing error occurred. If, after conducting a reasonable investigation,\31\ a creditor determines that no billing error occurred or that a different billing error occurred from that asserted, the creditor shall within the time limits in paragraph (c)(2) of this section: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \31\ If a consumer submits a billing error notice alleging either the nondelivery of property or services under paragraph (a)(3) of this section or that information appearing on a periodic statement is incorrect because a person honoring the consumer's credit card has made an incorrect report to the card issuer, the creditor shall not deny the assertion unless it conducts a reasonable investigation and determines that the property or services were actually delivered, mailed, or sent as agreed or that the information was correct. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) Mail or deliver to the consumer an explanation that sets forth the reasons for the creditor's belief that the billing error alleged by the consumer is incorrect in whole or in part; (2) Furnish copies of documentary evidence of the consumer's indebtedness, if the consumer so requests; and (3) If a different billing error occurred, correct the billing error and credit the consumer's account with any disputed amount and related finance or other charges, as applicable. (g) Creditor's rights and duties after resolution. If a creditor, after complying with all of the requirements of this section, determines that a consumer owes all or part of the disputed amount and related finance or other charges, the creditor: (1) Shall promptly notify the consumer in writing of the time when payment is due and the portion of the disputed amount and related finance or other charges that the consumer still owes; (2) Shall allow any time period disclosed under Secs. 226.6(a)(1) and 226.7(j), during which the consumer can pay the amount due under paragraph (g)(1) of this section without incurring additional finance or other charges; (3) May report an account or amount as delinquent because the amount due under paragraph (g)(1) of this section remains unpaid after the creditor has allowed any time period disclosed under Secs. 226.6(a)(1) and 266.7(j) or 10 days (whichever is longer) during which the consumer can pay the amount; but (4) May not report that an amount or account is delinquent because the amount due under paragraph (g)(1) of the section remains unpaid, if the creditor receives (within the time allowed for payment in paragraph (g)(3) of this section) further written notice from the consumer that any portion of the billing error is still in dispute, unless the creditor also: (i) Promptly reports that the amount or account is in dispute; (ii) Mails or delivers to the consumer (at the same time the report is made) a written notice of the name and address of each person to whom the creditor makes a report; and (iii) Promptly reports any subsequent resolution of the reported delinquency to all persons to whom the creditor has made a report. (h) Reassertion of billing error. A creditor that has fully complied with the requirements of this section has no further responsibilities under this section (other than as provided in paragraph (g)(4) of this section) if a consumer reasserts substantially the same billing error. (i) Relation to Electronic Fund Transfer Act and Regulation E. If an extension of credit is incident to an electronic fund transfer, under an agreement between a consumer and a financial institution to extend credit when the consumer's account is overdrawn or to maintain a specified minimum balance in the consumer's account, the creditor shall comply with the requirements of Regulation E, 12 CFR 205.11 governing error resolution rather than those of paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (e), (f), and (h) of this section. >>"Chris Wolf" wrote >> >>I told Todd from the start that he could keep the entire $45 for the pool >> training session for my buddy. Fair is fair. Todd delivered the goods, >>in that case. And my buddy did get to play around with the Snuba gadget in >>the hotel pool. >You're more generous than I am. Personally, I see the pool training session >as part of a package deal. In my personal opinion, he hasn't delivered >anything until he's delivered everything. It's a bit like a mechanic. If I >contract to have my car fixed, I don't pay him for taking it apart unles he >puts it back together again. It's your money and your choice. I see your point. I wanted to give the guy a break because he's got a wife and baby, and is probably really having to scramble just to put food on the table. Also, the weather in Key Largo was unusually rough for this time of year. I knew there was a chance that the weather would prevent us from ever making the Snuba dive. At the same time, my buddy wanted to get his pool training session out of the way, so he'd be ready to go if the weather suddenly decided to cooperate. I didn't want Todd to put in the training time in the pool, and then not get paid for it because the weather didn't cooperate. So we elected to gamble on paying for the pool session. Of course I also buy candy and magazines from every kid that comes to my front door. ;-) >> All I ever asked for was my $200 back for the two Snuba dives we never got >> to make. I'll give Todd another day or two make the refund, and then I'll >> contact Visa and ask for a stop payment. >The Visa people may understand what you're talking about, but what you're >looking for is not a stop payment. You are disputing the charge because, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >e-mail and I'll try to explain it further. I don't particularly want to get >into a long discussion here. Wow! Thanks for the information. I'll read it, and let you know if there's anything I don't understand. Thanks again! Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >>I told Todd from the start that he could keep the entire $45 for the pool >>training session for my buddy. Fair is fair. Todd delivered the goods, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > afterwards. Act quickly enough and they can stop it before the money leaves > their hands. Actually he was probably paid in a timeframe from 24 hours to 7 days. Act too slow, and the credit card company has to get the money > back from the merchant, who you already know won't be cooperative, or lose > it themselves. Not true. they simply will not credit his account for the next few transactions until his account balances. I handle several thousand dollars worth of CC transactons a week, and that is how they work it. if the dispute is found to be in his (the merchant's) favor, they will credit him at a later time, if not, he loses. As an aside, you are better off paying with AMEX. They are nearly always on the side of the CC holder. While they will pay the merchant of he provides proof to their satisfacton, their bias is nearly always to the cc holder first. I have never won a dispute against an Amex cc holderif they stuck to their guns. YMMV. By law, it's their risk, but they're not fond of losses they > may never be able to recover. A billing dispute is between you and the > credit card company. It does not, in itself, imply anything about the > merchant. Of course, the merchant can say a lot about himself in the > process, but that's his risk, not yours. We're talking about your rights > under the consumer protection laws of the US. They are for you and you are > entitled to exercise them freely. and he should. I believe that is has to be disputed in writing. > Not true. they simply will not credit his account for the next few > transactions until his account balances. I handle several thousand > dollars worth of CC transactons a week, and that is how they work it. > if the dispute is found to be in his (the merchant's) favor, they will > credit him at a later time, if not, he loses. Yours works that way specifically because you run through enough to make it work. It's not that easy for everybody. > and he should. I believe that is has to be disputed in writing. There's no requirement one way or the other. Pretty much everybody requires a written dispute. It just makes sense to document everything. Most, however, will start the process with a phone call. Lee >>> I got my certification about thirty years ago, but I live in Seattle where >>> the diving isn't all that great. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >It's just hard to put up with 54 degree water when the tropics are only a >plane ride away! True. I don't particularly care for Travis in March, either. But it's just 20 minutes from here, the vis is pretty good during the week and I can dive when I want. A crappy day of diving is better than a good day at work.  Signaturedillon When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark and the horse's name was Bob. >From: Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >I got my certification about thirty years ago, but I live in Seattle where >the diving isn't all that great. Rethink that. >Just how safe is a Snuba rig for a non-scuba user? Learn to dive. >How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from >ripping you off? Learn to dive. Popeye Barb, has it ever dawned on you just to shut the f.ck up? > Here's a couple of questions for the more experienced folk: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > do if the air supply suddenly failed, underwater, but Todd never answered > the question. Good question. Poor (as in no) answer. I guess my question would be, how does the divemaster, or whomever is down with the snuba diver, monitor the pressure in the tank on the surface??? I have heard of air embolisms at a lot less than 20 feet. > Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from > ripping you off? I was dumb enough to let him run my credit card the day > before we were scheduled to dive. Then when the idiot failed to notify us > that the dive was on, for Sunday, all he had to do was claim that I failed > to show up, and keep the money. Next time should I wait to run the credit > card until just before boarding the boat? Or is there a better way? There are good operators and bad operators everywhere and not just in the dive industry. Last January, I was fortunate enough to hook up with Capt Jim Wyatt in Cudjoe Key. I guess some things you could do is look for a fixed storefront operation and not someone operating out of a van. Check the BBB and see if they have anything on the operation. Ask other divers. Ask other dive operations. Most of the quality dive operators I have run across will actually recommend a competitor if they are a legitimate and professional operation. I know Capt Jim, gave me the name of an outfit in Key Largo to contact. As it turned out, they were not going out that day, but they did give me the phone number of another boat that was. SignatureOne lawyer can steal more than a hundred men with guns. >>Chris Wolf wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> do if the air supply suddenly failed, underwater, but Todd never answered >> the question. >Good question. Poor (as in no) answer. I guess my question would be, >how does the divemaster, or whomever is down with the snuba diver, >monitor the pressure in the tank on the surface??? I asked Todd what happens when a Snuba diver suddenly runs out of air. Does the Snuba diver hold his breath, and wait for the divemaster to give him air? Or does he simply exhale all the air from his lungs, and flipper up to the surface? (Which is never more than 20 feet away.) Todd assured me that none of the Snuba divers would run out of air because Todd would be constantly surfacing to check the pressure left in the scuba tank, floating on the surface. (Of course, if Todd is up on the surface, checking the air pressure, then he's not down on the bottom, keeping an eye on the Snuba divers, which can number as many as four.) I asked Todd what the Snuba diver should do if the regulator suddenly fails, and Todd explained that he would always be right there, in full scuba rig, to provide air to the distresed Snuba diver. (Unless, of course, Todd happens to be up on the surface, checking on the air pressure.) I quit asking questions after that. No point when the answers are dishonest. I figured I'd stay close to my buddy, and buddy breathe with him if anything went wrong with his regulator. I also told him if all else fails, just empty your lungs and flipper up the surface. My buddy has years of snorkeling and free diving experience, and is very comfortable underwater. >I have heard of air embolisms at a lot less than 20 feet. So have I. When I first got certified, my instructor pointed to the shallow end of the pool (3 feet deep), and explained that if I sat down on the bottom of the pool, took a deep breath from my scuba tank, and then stood up, I could get an air embolism. I've never forgotten that. And I made sure my buddy knew it, too. >> Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from >> ripping you off? I was dumb enough to let him run my credit card the day >> before we were scheduled to dive. Then when the idiot failed to notify us >> that the dive was on, for Sunday, all he had to do was claim that I failed >> to show up, and keep the money. Next time should I wait to run the credit >> card until just before boarding the boat? Or is there a better way? >There are good operators and bad operators everywhere and not just in >the dive industry. Last January, I was fortunate enough to hook up with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >were not going out that day, but they did give me the phone number of >another boat that was. Good advice. I guess was what I was really asking, is it always necessary to give your credit card number to reserve a dive slot? Every time I made a reservation to do anything in Key Largo (Snuba, snorkel trip, jetski) the operator insisted on a credit card number to "reserve my slot." But the boats were never full. It was always possible to walk on at the last minute before departure. In the future, I think I will attempt to make a reservation, but decline to give my credit card number until I arrive at the dock and determine that the boat is really going out. I suppose if it's the height of the busy season, with more customers than slots, the dive operator can insist on a credit card number ahead of time. But if that's the case, I think I'll just look for a less-busy competitor. Todd was the only Snuba game in town (at least on Key Largo), so I had no choice but to give him my credit card number. The next closest Snuba operation was in Key West, about a hundred miles down the road. However I learned later that Tilden's dive shop, on Duck Key, just a few miles down the road, also offered Snuba dives. Next time I'm not giving my credit card number ahead of time, even if it's for a ride on the Space Shuttle! Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >Good advice. I guess was what I was really asking, is it always necessary >to give your credit card number to reserve a dive slot? Every time I made [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > With all due respect, I think you've got it backwards. Let me give another side of this issue. I have twice had dive trips cancel out on me at the last minute because other divers canceled their reservations at the last minute, leaving too few divers for the operator to make a profit.The operator hadn't collected a deposit, so he had no recourse. When you've traveled some distance with your gear and it's too late to make other plans, this is a real pain in the a.s. Try sitting on the beach on a perfect day and realize the only reason you're not out there is that your dive operator didn't collect a deposit. In fact, I don't understand operators who don't take credit card deposits to protect themselves AND their other customers from people who don't show up or who cancel at the last minute. I think it's entirely fair for an operator to charge your credit card if you cancel less than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time. I encountered the other extreme on a trip to St. Thomas in February. I booked in advance with Admiralty Dive Center. They picked me up at the hotel and brought me to the boat, where I discovered I was the only diver. They told me since I'd reserved in advance, they would honor the reservation. If I''d just showed up and they didn't have other divers, they'd have said try again tomorrow. That's service above and beyond, but it assured that I would dive with them on subsequent trips, and that I'll tell others about it, as I just have. In the height of the busy season, the operator probably doesn't need to collect deposits. Enough people are probably going to show up for him to go and make a little money. The only reason a trip should be canceled due to too few divers is if not enough people made reservations in the first place. Last minute walk-aways and non-shows should not ruin the day for other divers, but that's what they do unless there's a way to charge them. My $.02 g >>Chris Wolf wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>slots, the dive operator can insist on a credit card number ahead of time. >>But if that's the case, I think I'll just look for a less-busy competitor. >With all due respect, I think you've got it backwards. No, I've just presented my side of the issue, from the customer's point of view. And it's legitimate. I don't want to be ripped off by dishonest operators who take my credit card number, and then never deliver the goods. Of course there's the other side of the argument, from the honest operator's point of view, which you have detailed below. >Let me give >another side of this issue. I have twice had dive trips cancel out on me [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I think it's entirely fair for an operator to charge your credit card if >you cancel less than 24 hours before the scheduled departure time. I agree. I would have no problem with that. >I encountered the other extreme on a trip to St. Thomas in February. I >booked in advance with Admiralty Dive Center. They picked me up at the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >My $.02 I think both sides of this issue have a valid point. The diver doesn't want to give his credit card number, and then get ripped off by a dishonest operator who fails to deliver. The honest operator doesn't want to give out reservations, turn away other paying customers, and then not have the original diver show up. When the customer base is mostly local, we can largely rely on reputation and word of mouth to protect the customers from dishonest operators. But when most of the customers travel from far away, that won't work. The dishonest operators know they can fleece the customers, and usually get away with it. It seems to me that what is needed is some sort of "clearing house" independent agency to protect both divers and operators. The agency takes the reservation, and the credit card number. If the boat makes the trip, then the operator gets paid. If not, the customers don't get charged. If the customer makes a reservation, but fails to cancel within 24 hours of the trip, or fails to show up, then his credit card gets charged anyway. With a system like this, a customer could make a reservation, give his credit card number, and not have to worry about getting ripped off by a dishonest operator. And the honest dive operator would not have to worry about no-shows costing him money. Heck, all you'd need is a few people sitting behind computer screens, taking phone calls. The dive operators in a place like the Florida Keys ought to get together and set something like that up. It could service every dive operator from Key Largo to Key West. The way things currently stand, both sides are being asked to take risks. It's an unstable situation. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >>>Chris Wolf wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > pressure, then he's not down on the bottom, keeping an eye on the Snuba > divers, which can number as many as four.) This guy scares me and I am fearless. I think I would have RUN....not walked away. > I asked Todd what the Snuba diver should do if the regulator suddenly > fails, and Todd explained that he would always be right there, in full > scuba rig, to provide air to the distresed Snuba diver. (Unless, of > course, Todd happens to be up on the surface, checking on the air > pressure.) Too many BS answers. > I quit asking questions after that. No point when the answers are > dishonest. I figured I'd stay close to my buddy, and buddy breathe with > him if anything went wrong with his regulator. I also told him if all else > fails, just empty your lungs and flipper up the surface. My buddy has > years of snorkeling and free diving experience, and is very comfortable > underwater. Chances are, your buddy would have coped OK as long as he remembered to to hold his breath as he ascended. I guess my main question would be about someone who was NOT as comfortable in the water. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > stood up, I could get an air embolism. I've never forgotten that. And I > made sure my buddy knew it, too. I havn't heard 3 but I have heard 4 & 5 but I do not doubt it. >>There are good operators and bad operators everywhere and not just in >>the dive industry. Last January, I was fortunate enough to hook up with [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > boats were never full. It was always possible to walk on at the last > minute before departure. When I was diving Key Largo, I actually made my boat reservations from my car on my cell phone. They said no problem, we'll see you when you get here. I don't think I had to give them a CC number. It was only when I got there did I give them my credit card and of course they wanted to see my c-cards which was no problem. > In the future, I think I will attempt to make a reservation, but decline to > give my credit card number until I arrive at the dock and determine that > the boat is really going out. Some of the dive operations I have been out with wanted a cc to hold your spot on the boat and I don't have a problem with that. From their point of view, suppose they have a boat which carries 20 divers. The boat trip costs $50. Then 10 divers (who have not put down a deposit or secured with a credit card) decide they don't want to go out or go with a competing dive operation. In the mean time, this boat has turned away customers who were willing to pay. That boat has lost $500 for that day. The dive boat operations I have been out with have given a full refund if the trip was cancelled. A few years ago, I was diving on the dive boat "Outrageous" (Discovery Diving). Conditions were "iffy" when we left but Capt Terry went out anyhow. We got an hour out of port and he stopped the boat and told us they had 8-9 ft seas where we were going. He said, "I will give you 3 choices, (1) we can continue but once we get there, no refunds. (2) we can try some spots closer in but viz is going probably be pretty bad (3) we can return to port and I will give you a refund. The group decided to just turn around and go back and we got a full refund. > I suppose if it's the height of the busy season, with more customers than > slots, the dive operator can insist on a credit card number ahead of time. > But if that's the case, I think I'll just look for a less-busy competitor. I guess it depends on the operator. If they feel they will be leaving with open slots on the boat, it really doesn't matter if you give a CC or not. But if they have to turn away other customers, then its money out of their pockets if you don't pay and don't show. > Next time I'm not giving my credit card number ahead of time, even if it's > for a ride on the Space Shuttle! Oh.....does NASA take MasterCard????? SignatureOne lawyer can steal more than a hundred men with guns. >>Chris Wolf wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> pressure, then he's not down on the bottom, keeping an eye on the Snuba >> divers, which can number as many as four.) >This guy scares me and I am fearless. >I think I would have RUN....not walked away. I guarantee if my buddy had not had years of snorkeling and free diving experience, I would have chained him to the dock. >> I quit asking questions after that. No point when the answers are >> dishonest. I figured I'd stay close to my buddy, and buddy breathe with >> him if anything went wrong with his regulator. I also told him if all else >> fails, just empty your lungs and flipper up the surface. My buddy has >> years of snorkeling and free diving experience, and is very comfortable >> underwater. >Chances are, your buddy would have coped OK as long as he remembered to >to hold his breath as he ascended. I guess my main question would be >about someone who was NOT as comfortable in the water. I think you meant "NOT to hold his breath as he ascended" ;-) I agree that someone who is going in the water for the first time, or who is not comfortable in the water, has no business breathing compressed air. >> In the future, I think I will attempt to make a reservation, but decline to >> give my credit card number until I arrive at the dock and determine that >> the boat is really going out. >Some of the dive operations I have been out with wanted a cc to hold >your spot on the boat and I don't have a problem with that. I didn't either. Until the boat sailed without me, and I was accused of being a no-show so the operator could keep my money. >From their >point of view, suppose they have a boat which carries 20 divers. The >boat trip costs $50. Then 10 divers (who have not put down a deposit or >secured with a credit card) decide they don't want to go out or go with >a competing dive operation. In the mean time, this boat has turned away >customers who were willing to pay. That boat has lost $500 for that day. That's why some sort of a "clearing house" independent reservation agency would be a good idea, to protect honest divers and honest operators. >> Next time I'm not giving my credit card number ahead of time, even if it's >> for a ride on the Space Shuttle! >Oh.....does NASA take MasterCard????? They take Visa and MasterCard, but they DON'T take American Express. ;-) Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >>>Chris Wolf wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > I think you meant "NOT to hold his breath as he ascended" ;-) You're right....(note to self- engage brain before typing) > I agree that someone who is going in the water for the first time, or who > is not comfortable in the water, has no business breathing compressed air. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I didn't either. Until the boat sailed without me, and I was accused of > being a no-show so the operator could keep my money. If you were where you were supposed to be when you were supposed to be there....and they sailed early, or changed departure points without telling you, etc etc....then I agree with you. On the other hand, if they sailed without a customer because they overslept, had a hangover, or even had car trouble, that is beyond the control of the dive operator. >>From their > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That's why some sort of a "clearing house" independent reservation agency > would be a good idea, to protect honest divers and honest operators. I usually use my local dive shop for that. They organize the trip. I pay one flat fee and I am on the boat. If the trip is cancelled because of factors beyond anyones control (weather for example), then I get my money back. If I oversleep or don't make the boat because of reasons they have no control over, then I lose. >> There are good operators and bad operators everywhere and not just in > the dive industry. Last January, I was fortunate enough to hook up with > Capt Jim Wyatt in Cudjoe Key. I guess some things you could do is look > for a fixed storefront operation and not someone operating out of a van. Won't work. Jim's storefront, for example, looks nothing like the kind of dive shop I'm likely to seek out. As you know, however, just the opposite is true. The real answers are: 1. Don't bother with anybody that's offering a scuba-like event. They're automatically catering to people who should, but will not, get the right training for breathing compressed gas. That's a comment on the operation, not their customers. > Ask other divers. That's the way. Jim is, again, a good example. Exactly one rec.scuba participant that's been diving with Jim, has given him anything but top marks. The one has, I believe, reconciled with Jim since. > Most of the quality dive > operators I have run across will actually recommend a competitor if they > are a legitimate and professional operation. I know Capt Jim, gave me > the name of an outfit in Key Largo to contact. As it turned out, they > were not going out that day, but they did give me the phone number of > another boat that was. Him is the only operator I've known to recommend another. It appears you are lucky enough to know two that will. What's the name of the other? Lee >>>There are good operators and bad operators everywhere and not just in >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Him is the only operator I've known to recommend another. It appears you > are lucky enough to know two that will. What's the name of the other? It was in Key Largo. I was hoping to dive the SG but no one had a trip going out that day. Jim recommended a Key Largo operation (cannot remember the name but if you really really want it I will research it). I called them and they said they did not have a boat going out that afternoon but to contact this other dive operation, which I did and they got me on the boat no problem. Every year, I go with the LDS to Ginnie Springs, play with the manatees, and then wind up at Devils Den or Blue Grotto (we alternate each year). One year I wound up at Devils Den. I didn't even think about it, but I was wearing a hat with "Blue Grotto" on it. The owner chided me a little about "wearing a competitors hat" but that was a humorous chide. She then told me they were a good operation and they get along well and help each other out regularly. One year I was on the dive boat "Seaquest" (Discovery Diving) diving a shipwreck off the coast of Morehead NC. The conditions were fantastic. The water was warm with almost unlimited viz. It so happened the dive boat "Olympus" (Olympus Diving) was also moored nearby with their divers. The Olympus had two captains on board, so the Olympus captain jumped in the water, swam over to our boat and captained it, while our captain went in for a brief dive on the wreck. Two Decembers ago, I was diving with Olympus (Trace and some of his friends were on that dive). I had an opportunity to talk with Capt. George and told him I had remembered that trip. He remembered it and said it was not unusual for the Captains to help each other out like that and recommend customers to the other operation(s) if they are unable to render a service. IMHO, that speaks highly of these operations and their committment to the satisfaction of the customer. Sure THEY would certainly like to be the ones to make the profit, but if they cannot, then instead of turning away a diver and letting them go away "dry", then the diver is still provided the service. You can bet that if I ever make back to Key Largo, I will look up that dive operation and at least give them first shot at my business. SignatureOne lawyer can steal more than a hundred men with guns. >>>There are good operators and bad operators everywhere and not just in >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dive shop I'm likely to seek out. As you know, however, just the opposite > is true. I didn't have any issues with Jims storefront. My impression of Capt. Jim, he is more service and training oriented as opposed to retail sales. > The real answers are: > 1. Don't bother with anybody that's offering a scuba-like event. They're > automatically catering to people who should, but will not, get the right > training for breathing compressed gas. That's a comment on the operation, > not their customers. Not sure what your definition of a "scuba-like" event is. If its "snuba" I will agree with you. If it also includes a resort where there is a divemaster or instructor next do you the entire time, I will disagree. I have heard of "snuba" but never really knew much about it until Chris decribed it in his original post. I am not at all impressed with it. >>Ask other divers. > > That's the way. Jim is, again, a good example. Exactly one rec.scuba > participant that's been diving with Jim, has given him anything but top > marks. The one has, I believe, reconciled with Jim since. You can bet that if I ever make it to that part of the world again, I will be looking up Jim (if he will put up with me :) ). I guess no matter how hard you try, no matter how good you are, now matter how customer oriented you are, sooner or later, there is going to be someone you can't please. I don't know the particulars in Jim's case, but my guess is, he bent over backwards to accomdate this person. SignatureOne lawyer can steal more than a hundred men with guns. > I didn't have any issues with Jims storefront. My impression of Capt. > Jim, he is more service and training oriented as opposed to retail sales. I don't recall he had much in the way of signs . . . or shop. Then again, I agree with you. I dive with Jim for the diving, not for the beauty of his signage. Wait a minute. I take it back. I dive with Jim to dive with Jim. The visibility when I've been there has not been anything to write home about. Good thing I know it gets better. Otherwise, I'd doubt all those glowing reports. Lee >I have heard of "snuba" but never really knew much about it until Chris >decribed it in his original post. I am not at all impressed with it. Chris isn't much impressed with it, either. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >Just how safe is a Snuba rig for a non-scuba user? It's not. >I mean, does it really >make any difference if the air tank is strapped to the diver's back, or >floating on the surface? Seems like they'd be equally dangerous. Exactly. >Compressed air is compressed air, and the last I heard, it's not impossible >to get an air embolism at twenty feet. Try 5 feet. Yes... you can embolize in less than 5 feet if you fully inflate and close the airway... which happens all the time with a panicy new diver. It's extremely unlikely to get bent in 20ft unless you've been down there for several days because the nitrogen saturation is insufficient to produce enough pressure to produce damaging bubbles. >My buddy asked Todd what he should >do if the air supply suddenly failed, underwater, but Todd never answered >the question. This was one of many signs that you should have kept your Visa in your wallet. That this guy has not killed anyone is a surprise. A CESA is one of the first things taught, but he's not going to cover that in an hour in the pool. >Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from >ripping you off? Don't fall for the BS, and pay cash. This guy was a COMPLETE ripoff anyways... $100 for "snuba"? I paid only $120 for a two-dive PADI Resort Diver course in Grand Cayman, and GC is expensive. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ > >Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from > >ripping you off? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > only $120 for a two-dive PADI Resort Diver course in Grand Cayman, and > GC is expensive. You were doing fine up to this point. Credit is almost always better than cash. You have recourse through the card company. In this case, a refund should have been requested when the first plan did not work out. Lee >Credit is almost always better than >cash. You have recourse through the card company. In this case, a refund >should have been requested when the first plan did not work out. I tried to call Todd, twice in two days, before I left Key Largo, to make sure I would get my refund for the aborted dives. He never returned my calls. It took a week to finally track him down on his cell phone, and to get him to admit that he had no intention of refunding my money. When I told Todd I would ask Visa to put a stop payment on the charge, he threatened to sic his lawyer on me. Which I found very amusing. Rather indicative of the intelligence and character of the guys who peddle this quasi-scuba stuff to tourists. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net > I tried to call Todd, twice in two days, before I left Key Largo, to make > sure I would get my refund for the aborted dives. He never returned my > calls. It took a week to finally track him down on his cell phone, and to > get him to admit that he had no intention of refunding my money. Include your efforts in your dispute to your credit card company. Call the card company first. They'll request your dispute in writing anyway, but the sooner you get things started, the sooner you get things resolved. > When I told Todd I would ask Visa to put a stop payment on the charge, he > threatened to sic his lawyer on me. Which I found very amusing. Rather > indicative of the intelligence and character of the guys who peddle this > quasi-scuba stuff to tourists. I sent you a copy of the relevant consumer protection regulation in another message. The cite is 12 CFR 226.13. It's part of the Federal Truth in Lending Act, also known as Regulation Z. If you don't get it or can't decipher the legalese, let me know by e-mail and I'll help further. Lee >>"Chris Wolf" wrote >> >> I tried to call Todd, twice in two days, before I left Key Largo, to make >> sure I would get my refund for the aborted dives. He never returned my >> calls. It took a week to finally track him down on his cell phone, and to >> get him to admit that he had no intention of refunding my money. >Include your efforts in your dispute to your credit card company. Call the >card company first. They'll request your dispute in writing anyway, but the >sooner you get things started, the sooner you get things resolved. Sound advice. I was going to give Todd a few days to come through, but I think I'll get started today. >> When I told Todd I would ask Visa to put a stop payment on the charge, he >> threatened to sic his lawyer on me. Which I found very amusing. Rather >> indicative of the intelligence and character of the guys who peddle this >> quasi-scuba stuff to tourists. >I sent you a copy of the relevant consumer protection regulation in another >message. The cite is 12 CFR 226.13. It's part of the Federal Truth in >Lending Act, also known as Regulation Z. If you don't get it or can't >decipher the legalese, let me know by e-mail and I'll help further. I got it. Many thanks! I've already turned it over to my diving buddy, Mike, who is also the manager of the business we run together. He speaks pretty good legalese. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >> Don't fall for the BS, and pay cash. >> This guy was a COMPLETE ripoff anyways... $100 for "snuba"? I paid [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >cash. You have recourse through the card company. In this case, a refund >should have been requested when the first plan did not work out. I wasn't clear, but I meant "on the spot", IE, no prepayment. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ > >> Don't fall for the BS, and pay cash. > >> This guy was a COMPLETE ripoff anyways... $100 for "snuba"? I paid [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I wasn't clear, but I meant "on the spot", IE, no prepayment. Another good point. Personally, I don't hesitate to provide advance payment for services I've arranged for. Pretty much anybody that travels has little choice. It's the standard for airlines, rental cars, hotels, etc. Any time it is important enough to reserve your services, some kind of prepayment is normal. The provider has a need to ensure he's paid for the services he can not, legitimately, provide to others because they are reserved for you. All of this is one of the key reasons that consumer protection laws exist. In this case, it's 12 CFR 226.13, part of the Federal Truth in Lending Act. I sent a copy separately. Personally, I think Chris's only mistakes in this were: 1. When the merchant didn't provide the service the second time, Chris should have requested a refund right then. That's similar to your "cash" suggestion. He would have been in a better legal position had he done that. It was clear that no goods or services were provided, that it was not Chris's fault that they weren't and that the merchant had lost no opportunity to sell his services elsewhere as a result of Chris's actions. Because that did not happen, there's room for a factual dispute. Chris says the operator had a responsibility to call. The operator says Chris did. The operator will claim that his actions were consistent with their agreement and that he has a right to his cost of opportunity lost due to Chris's failure to act consistent with the operator's version of their agreement. 2. When it was obvious that the operator did not intend to refund the money, Chris should have immediately called his card company and disputed the charge. The delay may have provided time for the credit card company to pay the merchant. If it has, then the transaction is no longer arms length. If the card company pays Chris, they have to collect from a merchant that's already shown a reluctance to provide the refund. They're no longer unbiased . . . if they ever were. Chris, please understand that nothing above should be perceived as negative comments regarding you. I accept your version as originally presented. Anything that appears to suggest otherwise is nothing more than considering what the operator and credit card company might do relative to your claim. Lee >Personally, I think Chris's only mistakes in this were: >1. When the merchant didn't provide the service the second time, Chris >should have requested a refund right then. That's similar to your "cash" >suggestion. He would have been in a better legal position had he done that. I didn't request a refund after the second dive attempt failed to materialize, because there was a chance we could still dive the next day (Sunday). If I had requested a refund, then there would have been no prepayment holding our dive slots for the next day. However, on Sunday evening, when it was obvious that the dives weren't going to happen, we immediately called Todd to request a refund. We also called Todd the following morning, to request the refund. Both times we only got his answering machine, and he never returned our calls. About a week later, my buddy, Mike, finally caught Todd on his cell phone, and was told that Todd would not issue a refund. I think it's pretty obvious that Todd was simply ducking our calls. I think it's also pretty good evidence that Todd knew he screwed up on notifying us, and was keeping our money under false pretenses. >It was clear that no goods or services were provided, that it was not >Chris's fault that they weren't and that the merchant had lost no [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >already shown a reluctance to provide the refund. They're no longer >unbiased . . . if they ever were. That's a good point. I will contact the credit card company immediately. >Chris, please understand that nothing above should be perceived as negative >comments regarding you. I accept your version as originally presented. >Anything that appears to suggest otherwise is nothing more than considering >what the operator and credit card company might do relative to your claim. I understand perfectly. Believe me, no offense taken. I greatly appreciate you objective viewpoint on this matter. It's very useful to know how the credit card company might look at this matter. Many thanks! Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >>On Sun, 09 May 2004 16:26:11 -0700, Chris Wolf <cwolf41@comcast.net> >>wrote: >> >>Just how safe is a Snuba rig for a non-scuba user? >It's not. It looks like one of those things that goes fine in shallow water, on a calm day, with only one of two Snuba divers and a divemaster in close proximity, and when all the gear works like it should. But it also looks to me like it takes only one little failure to send a panicky Snuba diver racing for the surface, holding his breath, and suffering an air embolism. And I just don't think that a single divemaster can adequately monitor four different Snuba divers, on four different hoses, scattered across the bottom. Unless the divemaster keeps them together in a tight group (which would be a real drag). >>I mean, does it really >>make any difference if the air tank is strapped to the diver's back, or >>floating on the surface? Seems like they'd be equally dangerous. >Exactly. I've seen ads for Snuba that declare "It's safe because the air tank floats on the surface, rather than strapped to the diver's back." That claim never made any sense to me. Crap to hose the tourists, I figured. But I thought I might be overlooking something, which is why I raised the subject. >>Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from >>ripping you off? >Don't fall for the BS, and pay cash. >This guy was a COMPLETE ripoff anyways... $100 for "snuba"? I paid >only $120 for a two-dive PADI Resort Diver course in Grand Cayman, and >GC is expensive. I think Key Largo is even more expensive. I checked with the Snuba operator on Duck Key, and he also charges $100 for a Snuba dive. I inquired about the resort diver courses, and found that $200 was the going rate. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >It looks like one of those things that goes fine in shallow water, on a >calm day, with only one of two Snuba divers and a divemaster in close >proximity, and when all the gear works like it should. Of course. Same with the resort course dives. 99% of the time everything goes just fine, just like any scuba dive. The difference is when the sh.t hits the fan and the resort course diver (or regular OW diver) doesn't know how to handle the problem due to poor training, poor memory, or general lack of experience. That's when the coroner shows up. For my resort course dives, we had 4 DMs and 6 divers. One diver was simply not comfortable, so one of the DMs stayed with her, swimming around at 15ft while watching us below. >I've seen ads for Snuba that declare "It's safe because the air tank floats >on the surface, rather than strapped to the diver's back." That claim >never made any sense to me. Crap to hose the tourists, I figured. But I >thought I might be overlooking something, which is why I raised the >subject. Ya... position of the tank has nothing to do with it. Snuba is just as safe as the resort courses... or just as unsafe, depending on how you look at it. OTOH, many OW courses are now down to only 2-3 hours classroom before putting the students in the water, which isn't much better than the resort courses. >I think Key Largo is even more expensive. I checked with the Snuba >operator on Duck Key, and he also charges $100 for a Snuba dive. I >inquired about the resort diver courses, and found that $200 was the going >rate. I'm also quoting prices from a few years ago... RC may very well be $200 in GC by now. --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ >>On Mon, 10 May 2004 12:42:20 -0700, Chris Wolf <cwolf41@comcast.net> >>wrote: >> >>It looks like one of those things that goes fine in shallow water, on a >>calm day, with only one of two Snuba divers and a divemaster in close >>proximity, and when all the gear works like it should. >Of course. Same with the resort course dives. 99% of the time >everything goes just fine, just like any scuba dive. >The difference is when the sh.t hits the fan and the resort course >diver (or regular OW diver) doesn't know how to handle the problem due >to poor training, poor memory, or general lack of experience. >That's when the coroner shows up. As I recall, Todd, the Snuba instructor, explained to my buddy the importance of clearing his ears on the way down, and the importance of breathing normally, and ascending slowly, on the way up. But Todd never mentioned the consequences of failing to do either one. The words "ruptured ear drum" or "air embolism" were never mentioned. There's just no way that can be called "training." That's telling the customer just enough to try to keep him out of trouble, but failing to tell him the possible consequences to avoid scaring him off. I think ignorant tourists are coming to these quasi-scuba operations and looking at it like parasailing, or riding a jetski; something where you can learn the fundamentals in just a few minutes, and be relatively safe. But that's just not the case for breathing compressed air. You're playing with fire, and you can get badly burned if you don't know how to handle it safely. >>I've seen ads for Snuba that declare "It's safe because the air tank floats >>on the surface, rather than strapped to the diver's back." That claim >>never made any sense to me. Crap to hose the tourists, I figured. But I >>thought I might be overlooking something, which is why I raised the >>subject. >Ya... position of the tank has nothing to do with it. Snuba is just >as safe as the resort courses... or just as unsafe, depending on how >you look at it. >OTOH, many OW courses are now down to only 2-3 hours classroom before >putting the students in the water, which isn't much better than the >resort courses. When I got my certification, thirty years ago in college, I recall spending quite a few hours in the classroom before we ever went near the water. Each of us was given a thick book on the principles and details of scuba diving (which I still have), and we were responsible for reading it and learning everything in it. There were several written tests on the book material we had to pass before we were even allowed to go near the water. In the pool, we sat on the bottom, in about five feet of water, wearing our scuba gear, while our instructors swam around us, turning off our air, pulling off our masks, and pulling our regulators out of our mouths. We had to be able to cope with all of these things (and a whole lot more), without showing any signs of panicking or discomfort before we were allowed to move on. I remember how one girl panicked when the instructor pulled off her mask. She held her breath and leaped toward the surface. The instructor promptly slugged her in the gut, knocking the wind out of her to avoid an air embolism, and then hauled her to the surface. I like to think that when we finished that course, we were TRAINED to scuba dive. Is this sort of training even done any more? Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net > Here's a couple of questions for the more experienced folk: > > Just how safe is a Snuba rig for a non-scuba user? Not very. SNUBA has come up before; what did you find in the Archives? For example, you may have found the alledged president of SNUBA trying to defend a Hawaii outfit that claimed that since the compressed air tank was on the surface, it was impossible for you to get hurt. > I mean, does it really make any difference if the air tank is > strapped to the diver's back, or floating on the surface? From a human physiological risks standpoint? Absolutely none. > Seems like they'd be equally dangerous. IMO, SNUBA is more dangerous because of the factors you pointed out: hose entanglement risks, surface wind drag, OOA's, etc, etc. > Compressed air is compressed air, and the last I heard, it's > not impossible to get an air embolism at twenty feet. They have found that one can embolise in as little as 4 feet. > My buddy asked Todd what he should do if the air supply > suddenly failed, underwater, but Todd never answered > the question. Of course not: that would scare off cash-laden customers. BTW, a more entertaining question is to ask where the SPG is :-) > Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from > ripping you off? Two suggestions: a) Dispute the claim with your credit card company. Make sure to point out to them that it was Todd's responsibility to call you to reschedule the dive, and he failed to notify you. b) Do some internet searches and find the Snuba homepage and CEO and complain to them. > Or is there a better way? a) Skip the "Hose the Tourists" SNUBA -type of crap recreational services and just get your buddies certified. Ditto for the walk on bottom with a weighted air helmet tourist system, and ditto for the U/W motor scooter with air helmet tourist system. b) While there's bad apples everywhere, "brick and mortar" businesses tend to be a bit easier to find than guys who operate out of the back of a van. c) Do more online research before you pick your vendor. -hh > Two suggestions: > > a) Dispute the claim with your credit card company. Make sure to point > out to them that it was Todd's responsibility to call you to reschedule > the dive, and he failed to notify you. Be very clear that you received nothing of value from the operator. > b) Do some internet searches and find the Snuba homepage and CEO and > complain to them. Good luck. It's worth a try. >> Two suggestions: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Be very clear that you received nothing of value from the operator. B..b...b...but... That would have applied had they DONE the dives :) --- Rich http://richlockyer.tripod.com/ > >> Two suggestions: > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That would have applied had they DONE the dives :) The attorney's would have to hash that one out. While I agree that the operator was not offering anything of value, Chris did not, at least at the time. Interestingly, there are consumer protection laws that address this issue too. It's not just "no goods or service" that trigger rights to a refund. Shoddy goods and services can do it too . . . but it's not nearly as clear cut a case when the issue is quality. Lee >> B..b...b...but... >> >> That would have applied had they DONE the dives :) >The attorney's would have to hash that one out. While I agree that the >operator was not offering anything of value, Chris did not, at least at the >time. Value is often in the eye of the beholder. If I had gotten to make the Snuba dive, I would have been satisfied. I just wanted to try the damn thing, and see how well it worked, compared to regular scuba. I wanted to see how hard it was to swim around with that inflatable raft, carrying the tank on the surface, getting moved around by wind and currents. I also wanted to see what happens when four Snuba divers are all leashed to the same floating raft. And finally, I wanted to stick near my buddy to make sure he didn't get hurt. >Interestingly, there are consumer protection laws that address this issue >too. It's not just "no goods or service" that trigger rights to a refund. >Shoddy goods and services can do it too . . . but it's not nearly as clear >cut a case when the issue is quality. All the people who went out on a snorkel trip on the Quicksilver catamaran, on Sunday afternoon, ought to sue for a refund. The seas were running quite rough, and water visibility was less than three feet. Nevertheless, I listened while the barker in the Quicksilver booth told family after family about the wonderful sights they would see out on the reef. All this while rain was pouring down, alternating with sunshine. When we finally got out on the reef, I got in the water, but gave up after about twenty minutes. Visibility was so poor, and the seas were so rough, that I nearly got dashed into some coral. I couldn't see the damned coral until I was literally on top of it, and the surging waves would suddenly drop me onto it. Not to mention the fact that the catamaran was pitching up and down in the high seas, and people were getting dashed against the ladder when they tried to climb aboard. At one point, the cat pitched downward so violently that the hull of the boat cracked one snorkeler on the head as he tried to grab the heaving ladder. Just another fun tourist day in Key Largo. If we had actually made the Snuba dive on Sunday, there would have been nothing to see in the turbid water. For Todd to claim that we could have dived, on Sunday, is pretty disingenuous. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >>On Mon, 10 May 2004 18:00:37 GMT, "Lee Bell" >><leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> wrote: >> >>Be very clear that you received nothing of value from the operator. >B..b...b...but... > >That would have applied had they DONE the dives :) Oh I dunno. Four Snuba divers leashed to one surface float, scampering around the reef like a pack of puppy dogs, trying to see everything at the same time, with one divemaster trying to ride herd on everyone at the same time, while constantly surfacing to check to make sure they don't all run out of air at the same moment. I have this vision of the Snuba guide mistakenly letting the Snuba air tank go empty, and three Snuba divers are instantly on him, grabbing his regulator and passing it around, and not giving him any. I think the entertainment value alone would have been worth the cost. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >>Chris Wolf <cwolf41@comcast.net> wrote: >> >> Here's a couple of questions for the more experienced folk: >> >> Just how safe is a Snuba rig for a non-scuba user? >Not very. SNUBA has come up before; what did you find in the Archives? I only checked the last thirty thousand posts, and didn't find any mention of Snuba. Guess I need to look a little further. >For example, you may have found the alledged president of SNUBA trying >to defend a Hawaii outfit that claimed that since the compressed air >tank was on the surface, it was impossible for you to get hurt. (Snicker!) Yeah, I've seen that claim in several different places. Looks like the whole Snuba industry is composed of lying bastards. >> My buddy asked Todd what he should do if the air supply >> suddenly failed, underwater, but Todd never answered >> the question. >Of course not: that would scare off cash-laden customers. > >BTW, a more entertaining question is to ask where the SPG is :-) Twenty feet straight up, as near as I can figure. ;-) >> Second question: How do you keep dive operator jerks like Todd from >> ripping you off? >Two suggestions: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >b) Do some internet searches and find the Snuba homepage and CEO and >complain to them. Good advice. I'm also going to post my story on a web page, and let potential Snuba customers read the details for themselves. >> Or is there a better way? >a) Skip the "Hose the Tourists" SNUBA -type of crap recreational >services and just get your buddies certified. Ditto for the walk on >bottom with a weighted air helmet tourist system, and ditto for the U/W >motor scooter with air helmet tourist system. My buddy found a Key West brochure for the underwater motor scooter gadget, and wanted to try THAT, too. We even went out the dock, in Key West, where the gadget was supposedly based. Thank God they had moved to the Virgin Islands. >b) While there's bad apples everywhere, "brick and mortar" businesses >tend to be a bit easier to find than guys who operate out of the back of >a van. > >c) Do more online research before you pick your vendor. Sound advice. I did do a web search for "Snuba problems" or "Snuba dangers," but found nothing. I'm going to change that with my own web page on the subject, and what happened to me. With a little luck, maybe I can put the whole damn industry out of business. Chris Wolf cwolf41@comcast.net >>Not very. SNUBA has come up before; what did you find in the Archives? > > I only checked the last thirty thousand posts, and didn't find any mention > of Snuba. Guess I need to look a little further. You should have checked the 1210 posts here, instead: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=snuba&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search SignatureSteve The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address. Steve <SPAMTRAPglawackus@hvc.rr.com> posted: > >>Not very. SNUBA has come up before; what did you find in the Archives? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=snuba&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Se > arch And here's one example from the above, about an email that Ron Fuller received from SNUBA's President, Jim Mayfield: http://tinyurl.com/yr4qj In doing some quick onlikne checking, it appears that Mr. Mayfield is still the President of Snuba International, as well as a Chairman of Sub Sea Systems, Inc. His Contact Info for you to complain is: Jim Mayfield (530) 626-0100 jim@subseasystems.com BTW, it was actually Jim's brother, Michael Stafford was the one who actually holds the patent on SNUBA. Interestingly, both Jim and Mike claim to be the founder of Snuba, although I did find one reference that indicates that it was actually a combined effort of the two of them plus their other brother, Patrick Stafford (now deceased). And FWIW, if Jim expresses any surprise about how we're able to r |
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