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Scuba Forum / General / June 2004On The Rebreather Front...
Linked below is the recently released (declassified? April 15, 2004) U.S. Naval Warfare Center's Diving and Life Support Divisions (partial) test results of the Buddy Inspiration fully closed mixed gas rebreather. In short, the unit failed on two major fronts as far as the US Navy and/or NOAA diving is concerned. The report details what the design flaws are and some recommendations as to how to improve the safety of said unit. Since the Inspiration was the first rebreather [TMK] to actually acquire European Community CE approval, it begs the question as to the value of such a "seal of approval"? Secondly, it'll be interesting to see what measures the manufacturer, AP Valves and/or its North American distributor, Silent Diving Systems Inc., are going to take in light of this new research which does not reflect favorably on their product? Recall perhaps? If perhaps not, the recent legal troubles over the Aladin AIR X Nitrox computer comes to mind. http://greywolfinnovations.com/APValves_LiMgBat.pdf Thankfully, I dive a PRISM which, since 1994, has had nothing but stellar praise and approval from NEDU research. Between the European CE seal of approval and the US Navy, I'll put my money on the Naval folks, thank you very much. http://greywolfinnovations.com/NEDU_Test_Report.pdf -- Randy F. Milak ~Apparently, the cost of living hasn't affected its popularity!~ > Linked below is the recently released (declassified? April 15, 2004) U.S. Naval > Warfare Center's Diving and Life Support Divisions (partial) test results of the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Randy F. Milak > ~Apparently, the cost of living hasn't affected its popularity!~ http://www.therebreathersite.nl/prism_rebreather.htm > Linked below is the recently released (declassified? April 15, 2004) U.S. Naval > Warfare Center's Diving and Life Support Divisions (partial) test results of the > Buddy Inspiration fully closed mixed gas rebreather. In short, the unit failed on > two major fronts as far as the US Navy and/or NOAA diving is concerned. Like that's a surprise. >The > report details what the design flaws are and some recommendations as to how to > improve the safety of said unit. Setting them out with the trash for Thursday pickup comes to mind... > Since the Inspiration was the first rebreather [TMK] to actually acquire European > Community CE approval, it begs the question as to the value of such a "seal of > approval"? Good point. > Thankfully, I dive a PRISM which, since 1994, has had nothing but stellar praise > and approval from NEDU research. Since I know you didn't buy your RB without a lot of research into the pros and cons of the various units, I wouldn't mind hearing what it was about the Prism that made you go that route and not drink the Inspiration koolaid like 99% of the other rebreather folks. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscuba.com > > Thankfully, I dive a PRISM which, since 1994, has had nothing but > > stellar praise and approval from NEDU research. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > about the Prism that made you go that route and not drink the > Inspiration koolaid like 99% of the other rebreather folks. Actually, the PRISM was my second choice. My first and best choice was originally a CisLunar. The Cislunar was priced at $20,000.00 USD which in my opinion was well worth every penny and better than any other unit on the market by a mile. However, its' supposed competition was priced at 1/3 of that, and subsequently CisLunar priced itself out of existence. Too bad. Although I settled for my 2nd choice, a PRISM, that unit isn't without its flaws either, it just happens to be the best 'off the shelf' fully closed mixed gas rebreather on the market today. The PRISM lacks a redundant loop fer krissakes, which is high on my priority list. Apparently they've got one in the works and will be available later this summer, but until then, it puts a real damper on many of the overhead environments I wish to explore. Other problems that have arisen are mostly operational (meaning my fault), rather than functional and usually only occurred after a period of severe service use. Several components though have had to be altered, redesigned or replaced before it's known service life was actually achieved. In retrospect, that's not so unusual though, and I must give credit to Peter Ready and his PRISM Team for their prompt action, support and attention to detail. FTR, I consider myself a novice rebreather diver. Although some aspects of rebreather diving can be a real pain in the a.s, rebreather life is a really wonderful thing in the long run. This spring after [most] of the ice thawed in Lake Superior, we went and dove one of my favorite Superior wrecks the Gunilda out of Rossport Ontario. Over the past 10 years or so, we'd dive that wreck open circuit to 270 ffw with a 22 to 24 minute bottom time, followed by 66 to 70+ minutes worth of staged decompression for a total runtime of somewhere between 90 and 110+ minutes in the water. During the springtime in Lake Superior, you'll freeze your a.s off after 100 minutes of runtime, making it next to impossible to dive that wreck (with any meaningfull bottom time) in any other time of year except late summer. Now, with the PRISM one can dive 30 minutes of actual bottom time followed by 30 minutes, that's right, only 30 minutes of staged decompression from 270 ffw and the doppler reads ZERO. Life doesn't get much better than that! As far as the pros and cons of each unit, well, the technical specifications of each have been hashed over a million times and the debates over radial flow scrubbers vs axial flow scrubbers etc., will never cease to rage on. Regrettably, those debates always seem to end up the same way with the usual pissing contests over who has the the better XYZ engineering degree, whose' dick is bigger and whose' dad can beat up whom. :-) The fact is, if one were to objectively analyze each rebreather unit on the market today, they will finds lots of pros and lots of cons for each and every unit. Further, it must be realized that much of the latter is pure personal speculation, anecdotal personal opinion, brand loyalty and so forth. Hard factual test data is much harder to come by. IMHO Inspiration has a huge following due to superior marketing, not because they have a superior unit. Inspiration has, and remains to have, a brilliant marketing strategy. The best I've ever seen for a rebreather, including kicking the marketing a.s the of the rebreather giant, Drager. In all fairness to the Inspiration crowd, the best thing that unit has going for it is a good price and fast availability combined with cheap, available, easy [subjective] training. A great many diver's place the latter high on their list of pro's. I'm just not one of them. One of the worst things Inspiration has going for it is it's long track list of dead divers it's produced. Compare that to the PRISM. PRISM has never had an incident let alone a fatality. Since the US Navy's grown fond of the PRISM, the recreational order for that unit has gone from a 4 week wait to a 4 month wait [except in Canada where the wait is only a few days]. In a society where everyone wants what they want, when they want it, that certainly puts PRISM at a huge marketing disadvantage. However, it would appear that PRISM wants military contracts, whereas Inspiration is totally geared to the recreational market. The only real difference between the recreational PRISM Topaz unit and the military PRISM Invader unit besides the name is that the military wants Inconel spheres instead of the 19 cubic foot Catalina cylinders which are standard with each unit. PRISM is far and wide amongst the simplest rebreather designs on the market today. With "simple" comes a who lot of advantages to ones health and well being. From a training aspect, here's one of those things that make you go hmmmmmm. IANTD advertises that they are the only agency to train divers on every mixed gas rebreather on the market. That is not true however. TMK, at this present time, IANTD does not train anyone on a PRISM. As an IANTD devotee, you'd think that might turn me off, but rather it peaked my curiosity as to why IANTD does not offer training on the PRISM. Turns out it's simply politically motivated. Long (gossipy) story short... apparently Tom Mount (IANTD CEO) received his Inspiration rebreather unit (for free) from the manufacturer and simply given the manufacturers blessing to train divers, train trainers and so on. Along comes PRISM. Peter says, sure Tom, here's a unit, that'll be 5 grand, but we'll train you for free. You must however, take the NAUI PRISM course and pass, and then you must put in 100 hours of bottom time on nitrox before you can even take the mixed gas course, which you must participate in and pass, and after 100 hours of mixed gas bottom time, we can then discuss the possibility of you becoming a PRISM instructor, and we'll go from there with respect to Instructor trainer status. Tom says something like, "...me take a course? Do you know who you're talking to..." and Peter says something like, "...yeah, someone who needs to be trained on a PRISM rebreather." Well, apparently someone's ego couldn't handle it, since IANTD does not certify divers on a PRISM. Although that story was told to me down the anecdotal scuttlebutt food chain, I'm certain there's certain truths in it. I say, Good for PRISM for standing by their irrefragable commitment to quality diver training. A simple display of integrity at it's finest. I wonder how many other Buddy Inspiration instructors out there were "handed" their instructor status? You've got to wonder how anyone could possibly put in enough time to be fully versed and experienced on several different rebreather units let alone just one, in such a short period of time that they think they are experienced enough to be an instructor trainer. Eeeee gawds, what is this world coming to? You've just got to wonder if that type of egotistical bullshit isn't going to kill someone some day? Moral of the story... when shopping for a potential widow maker, be sure to check out the obituaries before purchasing. Secondly, when shopping for rebreather training, don't hesitate to interview the instructor. Ask them how much time they've actually spent underwater on that unit and so on. If it doesn't equate to at least weeks to months of bottom time, run for the hills. Just my 2 editorial cents... -- Randy F. Milak ~Inspiration divers don't seem to get the clue even during clue mating season in a field full of horny clues even if they smeared their bodies with clue musk and did the clue mating dance!~ > Actually, the PRISM was my second choice. My first and best choice was > originally a CisLunar. The Cislunar was priced at $20,000.00 USD which in my > opinion was well worth every penny and better than any other unit on the market by > a mile. However, its' supposed competition was priced at 1/3 of that, and > subsequently CisLunar priced itself out of existence. Too bad. I know a guy who got a Cis and the spending didn't stop at the initial $20000. He spent several thousand more getting the thing to work properly. >Inspiration has, and remains to have, a brilliant marketing strategy. Plus they were first on the block with a mass marketed CCR, unlike the vapour ware of all the others like Oceanic. > The > best I've ever seen for a rebreather, including kicking the marketing a.s the of > the rebreather giant, Drager. Drager seemed to have put all their eggs in the SCR market. > In all fairness to the Inspiration crowd, the best thing that unit has going for > it is a good price and fast availability combined with cheap, available, easy > [subjective] training. A great many diver's place the latter high on their list > of pro's. I'm just not one of them. One of the worst things Inspiration has > going for it is it's long track list of dead divers it's produced. And if one listens to the Inspiration fans, it's always the diver's fault. However I always found it interesting that the people that were initially getting killed on the Inspiration were not stupid people. Some of them were long time RB divers. > Compare that to the PRISM. PRISM has never had an incident let alone a > fatality. Apparently that has recently changed. > Since the US Navy's grown fond of the PRISM, the recreational order for > that unit has gone from a 4 week wait to a 4 month wait [except in Canada where [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > amongst the simplest rebreather designs on the market today. With "simple" comes > a who lot of advantages to ones health and well being. Did you look at the KISS RB? I've got a couple of buddies that are looking at those. > From a training aspect, here's one of those things that make you go hmmmmmm. > IANTD advertises that they are the only agency to train divers on every mixed gas > rebreather on the market. That is not true however. TMK, at this present time, > IANTD does not train anyone on a PRISM. As an IANTD devotee, you'd think that > might turn me off, but rather it peaked my curiosity as to why IANTD does not > offer training on the PRISM. Turns out it's simply politically motivated. Why does that not surprise me? > I wonder how many other Buddy Inspiration instructors out there were "handed" > their instructor status? You've got to wonder how anyone could possibly put in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > coming to? You've just got to wonder if that type of egotistical bullshit isn't > going to kill someone some day? I sold an Inspiration on ebay for a buddy. It went to a guy who was going to Florida to take his RB course from Tom Mount. 6 months later I saw this guy's name in the IANTD database and he was down as an Inspiration Instructor (may have even been an Instructor Trainer but I don't remember that for sure). PADI only wishes they could dumb down training as much as IANTD has. > Moral of the story... when shopping for a potential widow maker, be sure to check > out the obituaries before purchasing. Secondly, when shopping for rebreather > training, don't hesitate to interview the instructor. Ask them how much time > they've actually spent underwater on that unit and so on. I hate those that look at their watch to answer that question. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscuba.com > I know a guy who got a Cis and the spending didn't stop at the initial > $20000. He spent several thousand more getting the thing to work > properly. Unfortunately I've heard the chronicles of such events on more than a few occasions, and about more than a few different CCR models. The narration of such wows is what stagnants the entire CCR industry IMO. > > The best I've ever seen for a rebreather, including kicking the marketing > > a.s the of the rebreather giant, Drager. > > Drager seemed to have put all their eggs in the SCR market. Very true and for good reason. Semi-closed circuit rebreathers (SCRs) are inherently safer than fully closed-circuit rebreathers (CCRs). The latter is why I had to take a serious look at Halcyons RB80. Other factors in its design, long term maintenace etc. made it a scratch though. > > Compare that to the PRISM. PRISM has never had an incident let alone a > > fatality. > > Apparently that has recently changed. Really? Got any details, links etc.? > Did you look at the KISS RB? I've got a couple of buddies that are > looking at those. I've seen the KISS first hand only briefly at DEMA but their website is quite detailed (1). It's made in Canada and we all know some of the best things in the world are made in Canada... take you and I for example. :) At the time, my attention fell on their Baby Booster product though, since that rebreather is actually not even close to ready made off the shelf etc. I do love what they print under the description of their product... "This rebreather has NOT been tested by the US Navy, DCIEM or any other organization, it is NOT CE approved and the only guarantee that it comes with is that it is absolutely capable of killing you." (2) I love it! Actually puts a smile on my face. > > Moral of the story... when shopping for a potential widow maker, be sure to > > check out the obituaries before purchasing. Secondly, when shopping for > > rebreather training, don't hesitate to interview the instructor. Ask them > > how much time they've actually spent underwater on that unit and so on. > > I hate those that look at their watch to answer that question. Touché! BTW, I was skipping through the pages of Motion Magazine which is the mag that all new GM owners (in Canada anyways) receive. Low and behold there to my surprise was a dive article in a GM car magazine by none other than your buddy Greg Mossfeldt. I read it and thought it was a wonderful article, well articulated and filled with spectacular photos. Please pass on my regards to him for such a fine piece of work! Sorry for the digression. -- Randy F. Milak ~Inspiration divers are so dumb, blondes tell joke about them!~ (1) http://www.jetsam.ca (2) http://www.jetsam.ca/mod.php?mod=userpage&menu=801&page_id=5 Please pass on a copy of the article. > > I know a guy who got a Cis and the spending didn't stop at the initial > > $20000. He spent several thousand more getting the thing to work [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > (1) http://www.jetsam.ca > (2) http://www.jetsam.ca/mod.php?mod=userpage&menu=801&page_id=5 > Please pass on a copy of the article. Be happy to. But how would you suggest one make that happen exactly? -- Randy F. Milak ~rec.scuba, where the reaction time is longer than the attention span!~ >> Drager seemed to have put all their eggs in the SCR market. > > Very true and for good reason. Semi-closed circuit rebreathers (SCRs) are >inherently safer than fully closed-circuit rebreathers (CCRs). Are you sure? They can still kill you all the same ways a CCR can, except for hyperox. CCRs may kill more divers, proportionately, but that's a lot to do with the kind of diving people do with CCRs, I think. And since it's Draeger we're talking about, haven't there been more than a few instances of problems, including fatalities, due to hypox. caused by contamination of the (extremely critical) sonic orifice which meters the mix to the loop? Not a good place to be, on a unit with no PPO2 measurement as standard... The Azimuth seems a better SCR unit all-round than the Draeger. Very well-engineered. And there's now a CCR derivative of it, the Nemesis - did you look at that? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'As I walk along these shores I am the history within' > >> Drager seemed to have put all their eggs in the SCR market. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Are you sure? Yes. > They can still kill you all the same ways a CCR can, except for > hyperox. Not exactly. For example, hypoxia (too little oxygen) is theoretically impossible diving a SCR dove within spec. Extreme hyperoxia (too much oxygen) is also theoretically impossible diving a SCR dove within spec, and only the diver him/herself could subject themselves to extreme hyperoxia by exceeding the supply gas's maximum operating depth. A CCR introduces several new ways to kill you that would not be inherent to either open-circuit nor to semi-closed circuit. Here's an oxygen 101 for anyone interested: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38EA9539.1475A18D%40DiveMed.zzn.com&oe=UTF- 8&output=gplain > CCRs may kill more divers, proportionately, but that's a lot to do > with the kind of diving people do with CCRs, I think. I would tend to agree with your general assertion, but would specify it as the "attitude" or "mindset" of the diver themselves, rather than the kind of diving people [wish to] do with CCRs. > And since it's Draeger we're talking about, haven't there been more > than a few instances of problems, including fatalities, due to hypox. News to me. > caused by contamination of the (extremely critical) sonic orifice > which meters the mix to the loop? It's a metered orifice and the latter is a problem for all SCRs caused only by salt water use and is easily rectified on two fronts. Anyone who dove the unit in that condition is either complacent and/or stupid and should probably not be allowed to procreate anyways. Darwin, take them away! :) > Not a good place to be, on a unit > with no PPO2 measurement as standard... PO2 monitoring is an option on the Drager. It's a nicety that can give one the warm and fuzzies that's for sure. However, even without a PO2 gauge, one cannot change the physics validated by a flow test and a mass balance equation - it's very reliable and conservative. > The Azimuth seems a better SCR unit all-round than the Draeger. Very > well-engineered. And there's now a CCR derivative of it, the Nemesis - > did you look at that? With respect to SCRs, the S.O. and I have owned and dove the Drager SCRs since the first 150 where produced for mass market way back when, and have been extremely pleased every since. Consider that at the time, our options for SCRs were very limited. One could buy the Drager, or the Drager or the optional Drager. That's what was out there. We choose the Drager. However, the unit has in fact met, and continues to meet our needs adequately and we have no plans to trade out our Dragers. When the time comes to replace those units, we now have several more options for consideration. With respect to CCRs, the Nemesis may or may not be a great unit. The Nemesis was not available 'out of the box' readily available, tried and true, etc. when I was shopping for a CCR. Therefore, I know diddley about the unit since I've never had reason to research it as of yet. -- Randy F. Milak ~Like I've always said, what's the point of backstabbing if you can't twist the knife?~ > Very true and for good reason. Semi-closed circuit rebreathers (SCRs) are > inherently safer than fully closed-circuit rebreathers (CCRs). The latter is why > I had to take a serious look at Halcyons RB80. Other factors in its design, long > term maintenace etc. made it a scratch though. Plus it's supposed to breathe like sucking through a straw (this from the highest level of DIRness). > > > Compare that to the PRISM. PRISM has never had an incident let alone a > > > fatality. > > > > Apparently that has recently changed. > > Really? Got any details, links etc.? Apparently happened a couple months ago in the S. Pacific to a fellow named Richard Diamond from SoCal. It's (kinda) being discussed on Decostop. FWIW here's a cut and paste written by some guy who calls himself Little Bubbler- What I've heard/read Richard was 55 years of age and had been diving four hours a day for 10+ straight days to depths of 250feet. He had a heart attack at depth and bolted to the surface. Another prism diver on board tested the rig and it tested fine. Richard basically excessed his OTU limit. > BTW, I was skipping through the pages of Motion Magazine which is the mag that > all new GM owners (in Canada anyways) receive. Low and behold there to my > surprise was a dive article in a GM car magazine by none other than your buddy > Greg Mossfeldt. Really? I'll have to ask him about it. >I read it and thought it was a wonderful article, well > articulated and filled with spectacular photos. Please pass on my regards to him > for such a fine piece of work! Okey doke. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscuba.com > Plus it's supposed to breathe like sucking through a straw (this from > the highest level of DIRness). The RB80 ???? I would say: No. It breathes good, but i am not at the highest level of DIRness :-) www.ekpp.org Michael > > > > Compare that to the PRISM. PRISM has never had an incident let alone a > > > > fatality. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > board tested the rig and it tested fine. Richard basically excessed his > OTU limit. Ok, so the guy had a heart attack. Too bad for him. Could have had it while cutting the grass or bowling for all we know. Therefore, I wouldn't rack that up as a "PRISM responsible" death. Thanks for the heads up Brian. -- Randy F. Milak ~Ladies, the best way to a man's heart is to... saw his breast plate open!~ [snip] > Ok, so the guy had a heart attack. Too bad for him. Could have had it > while > cutting the grass or bowling for all we know. Therefore, I wouldn't rack > that up > as a "PRISM responsible" death. Reminds me of the mid-to-late-1980's when DAN would call a DCS incident that was caused by a stuck BC power inflator a "dive computer responsible" event because the diver happened to be carrying an EDGE. (Remember those?!?) > Reminds me of the mid-to-late-1980's when DAN would call a DCS incident > that was caused by a stuck BC power inflator a "dive computer > responsible" event because the diver happened to be carrying an EDGE. > (Remember those?!?) I remeber them, terrible computer but excellent sledge hammer/weight. Dont you still use one? hehehe > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I remeber them, terrible computer but excellent sledge hammer/weight. > Dont you still use one? hehehe > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > I remeber them, terrible computer but excellent sledge hammer/weight. nope. i've upgraded to a Skinny Dipper! > Ok, so the guy had a heart attack. Too bad for him. Could have had it while > cutting the grass or bowling for all we know. Therefore, I wouldn't rack that up > as a "PRISM responsible" death. Nor I but you know how it goes. Thanks for the info on the PRISM. If gas prices out here get to be as stupid as what I hear they are out your way (and I ain't talking petrol), I may be in the market for such a beast and the Desperation was definitely not an option. Brian Edmonton, Alberta > > > Compare that to the PRISM. PRISM has never had an incident let alone a > > > fatality. > > > > Apparently that has recently changed. > > Really? Got any details, links etc.?  Signaturehttp://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6725 MarkW nospam to scuba to reply >PRISM. Peter says, sure Tom, here's a unit, that'll be 5 grand, but we'll train >you for free. You must however, take the NAUI PRISM course and pass, and then you >must put in 100 hours of bottom time on nitrox before you can even take the mixed >gas course, which you must participate in and pass, and after 100 hours of mixed >gas bottom time, we can then discuss the possibility of you becoming a PRISM SNIP Funny story. But, once you're qualified on 1 CCR rebreather, I don't see the need to start from scratch for every new CCR rebreather you wish to dive with. Compare it with pilots. If you're trained on a 747 e.g., they do not send you back to basic flightschool to learn to fly a 757. You just train the specifics of the new machine and get 'some' hours done and you get to fly the darn thing, passengers and all. On the other hand, what did shock me is that people got recently promoted to *insert rebreather brand here* Instructor Trainer without actually owning a unit, and without certifying at least 7 people on a unit (as demanded by iantd standards if I'm not mistaken) etc. Double standards? Yes, most certainly. steven +------------------------------------------------+ | Please use steevke at hotmail dot com to reply | +------------------------------------------------+ | Hinc illae lacrimae | +------------------------------------------------+ > > PRISM. Peter says, sure Tom, here's a unit, that'll be 5 grand, but > > we'll train you for free. You must however, take the NAUI PRISM course [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to start from scratch for every new CCR rebreather you wish to dive > with. Agreed, starting from scratch would be superfluous since CCR theory is all the same. However, if the diver is already a certified CCR diver/instructor/instructor trainer you'd think they'd be able to walk right in and ace any CCR theoretical exam; and examined they should be. > Compare it with pilots. If you're trained on a 747 e.g., they do not > send you back to basic flightschool to learn to fly a 757. You just > train the specifics of the new machine and get 'some' hours done and > you get to fly the darn thing, passengers and all. The same holds true for CCR diver training as well. One never goes back to basic openwater class nor do they repeat the CCR theoretical classes. In fact, that would probably hold true for just about any diving course. From your analogy... Pilot - Diver; Flight Instructor - Dive Instructor. Now, I'm not a pilot but I'll take a stab in the dark that the flight school instructor who trained that 747 pilot has put in substantially more flight time than just 'some'? The distinction really is between just going out and diving the unit, as opposed to actually teaching someone else to safely dive the unit. > On the other hand, what did shock me is that people got recently > promoted to *insert rebreather brand here* Instructor Trainer without > actually owning a unit, and without certifying at least 7 people on a > unit (as demanded by iantd standards if I'm not mistaken) etc. Double > standards? Yes, most certainly. He whose VISA has a high limit I suppose? Sad really. But who's worse, the people giving the credential or the people knowingly accepting an unearned, unqualified credential? -- Randy F. Milak ~Wouldn't it be great if there were no hypothetical questions?~ > Agreed, starting from scratch would be superfluous since CCR theory is all the snip That's why I found the story so funny, 'cause they wanted Mr. Mount do start from scratch again. snip >I'll take a stab in the dark that the flight school instructor who trained that >747 pilot has put in substantially more flight time than just 'some'? The >distinction really is between just going out and diving the unit, as opposed to >actually teaching someone else to safely dive the unit. A couple of differences: A plane, certainly a large passenger plane is much more complex than a 'simple' rebreather. When flying a large aeroplane, I can easily endanger 1000's of people. However, when diving a rebreather the only person I put in danger is myself, the diver. So it's fairly obvious that the flight instructor should have a bit more time on a plane than the rebreather instructor. His responsability is larger AND the complexity is greater. > He whose VISA has a high limit I suppose? Sad really. But who's worse, the Well, as the saying goes, the card that matters the most in the diving world is the visa card ;) steven +------------------------------------------------+ | Please use steevke at hotmail dot com to reply | +------------------------------------------------+ | Hinc illae lacrimae | +------------------------------------------------+ Sir Randal, You know I love ya man, but this is all wrong. Your facts are not in order. The US Navy tested and rejected the Invader. It is not now, nor will it ever be adopted or in service with any agency of the US military. The report that is published on the Grey Wolf site was a preliminary that was incomplete and not supposed to be released. Heads rolled about this (who released it and why?), there was a JAG investigation, and at the last DEMA the NEDU guys made a very pointed visit to Mr. Reid's booth to let him know they were no longer asking, but demanding he stop using their name in advertising, or face the courts. The Invaders that the NEDU had are now in the hands of U of F, the Navy gave them the units rather than throw them in the garbage, after Ready fleeced them for an enormous amount of money. In other words, the US Navy paid for, and rejected the result of, the prototyping evolution. There were a lot of sparks over that one as well. As far as the rest of the story with Ready and Tom Mount, all I can say is someone is feeding you bullshit with a large spoon. And to top it all off, you never once mentioned the InnerSpace Systems Megalodon, which is without peer in the rebreather realm. http://www.customrebreathers.com/index.html Ping me off line and I'll send you some information. Scott > > > Thankfully, I dive a PRISM which, since 1994, has had nothing but > > > stellar praise and approval from NEDU research. [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] > field full of horny clues even if they smeared their bodies with clue musk and did > the clue mating dance!~ > Sir Randal, > > You know I love ya man, but this is all wrong. Sergeant Major, Ditto, and it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. But for my fragile ego's sake if nothing else, let's just make sure I'm wrong, ok? :) > Your facts are not in order. My facts may or may not be factual at all, but I'm willing to put it to the test, since I have nothing to either lose nor profit by either way. I'm sure you've already entertained the prospect that your information may or may not be factual as well, and have sot out some type of proof? Why do I ask? Two reasons. Simply because these type of assertions you post here appear to be the same old 'dime a dozen' never ending allegations of some wrong doing or impropriety from someone who probably has some kind of agenda. If I had a nickel for every... well, whatever... do you have an agenda with these folks Scott? Secondly, Lord knows your having issues with certain dive industry manufacturers isn't exactly unheard of now is it? =;-) Fesh up! In the mean time, I've placed a call to Mr. Ready this afternoon. Unfortunately he is out until Monday. So I called Dan Smith who is the PRISM Distributor for Canada and he too is out till Monday. What a coincidence, maybe they're out diving... like we should be? Nevertheless, I will put forth your allegations to one or both of them personally (whomever I can get a hold of first), and report back 1st hand... how's that? I can even forward your allegations to one or both of them if you think that might get some better answers? Whatcha think? Meanwhile, I've got a few questions out of shear curiosity for ya myself... > The US Navy tested and rejected the Invader. It is not now, nor will it > ever be adopted or in service with any agency of the US military. What USN document states that they've rejected the unit? I've never heard that it was either adopted or rejected. In fact, TMK no one has been awarded a contract as of yet since the Navy has not yet decided what they're replacing their aging fleet of breathers with in the first place. Still up for grabs AFAIK. Maybe when someone actually impresses them, they'll order a shitload, I dunno? However, what is a fact is that Steam Machines Inc. is spending some considerable pesos making a new assembly plant to increase production of that very unit. What may be speculation is the reasoning I was told... "in anticipation" [of possible USN contracts] which in itself doesn't appear so unreasonable. > The report that is published on the Grey Wolf site was a preliminary that > was incomplete and not supposed to be released. According to who, what, where? > Heads rolled about this (who released it and why?), Who's head, where, when? The document itself, signed by the commanding officer specifically states that a copy be sent to Steam Machines Inc. if they requested it. So why would heads roll? (Reminds me of "Who ordered the code Red... You want the truth, you can't handle the..." Hehehe. > there was a JAG investigation, Now there's something criminal going on? Oy! What was the investigation report number per chance? Where are the findings published? Who got in do-do and so forth? If it's classified info, how did you find out? Got a link? > and at the last DEMA the NEDU guys made a very pointed visit to Mr. > Reid's booth to let him know they were no longer asking, but demanding he > stop using their name in advertising, or face the courts. You know this for a fact or is this hearsay? Who from NEDU went to see Peter at DEMA exactly? What was his/her name/rank etc. and where can they be reached? Secondly, I've never seen any Steam Machines advertisement that ever used NEDU in their advertising other than to point people to the third party independent research done by the Navy. What kind of impropriety could that possibly be? > The Invaders that the NEDU had are now in the hands of U of F, the Navy > gave them the units rather than throw them in the garbage, Yes indeed, the University of Florida did get a shitload of them, for free even, those lucky SOBs. But why pray tell, would the Navy give rejected, dangerous POS (your allegation) CCRs, to divers of the U of F? Doesn't the Navy like those people or what? Could there possibly be another explanation as to why the Navy gave all those units to the University besides saving landfill space? > after Ready fleeced them for an enormous amount of money. What USN report says they got fleeced? > In other words, the US Navy paid for, and rejected the result of, the > prototyping evolution. Why would the Navy reject its own findings of the results of the prototyping and evaluation they paid for? That doesn't sound very logical. > There were a lot of sparks over that one as well. > > As far as the rest of the story with Ready and Tom Mount, all I can say > is someone is feeding you bullshit with a large spoon. That may certainly be the case of course, and I fully realize that. Firstly though, I've disclosed the fact that the story was anecdotal at best and never represented it as anything other than the latter. There is always 2 sides to any story and we all know the truth is probably somewhere in-between. What I do know for a fact is that the person who told me definitely has an agenda, does not deny it, and is openly vocal about their distaste of IANTDs CEO. Nevertheless, I still think it holds some truths. YMMV. > And to top it all off, you never once mentioned the InnerSpace Systems > Megalodon, which is without peer in the rebreather realm. Ah here we go... the word for today is, "disclosure". What is your relationship to InnerSpace Scott? Do you own a Megalodon, have you ever dove one, you do work for them, what? Come on, I know there's got to be something here... what else can you share with us? > Ping me off line and I'll send you some information. Why not post it right here for everyone to see and to learn from? I'm sure individual readers can choose whether they wish to read it or not, and evaluate whether it was worth the read or not as well. If it busts the balls of Steam Machines so be it. I honestly have no heart felt love for them, especially if there's some impropriety involved. However, if it's just more proofless allegations, (we can still discuss them, being the gossipy bunch of bitches we are) but lets simply recognize them as the "gossip has it..." type of discussion that it is? Up to you. -- Randy F. Milak ~I DO NOT repeat gossip, so I'm only gonna say this once...!~ > Sergeant Major, Ditto, and it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. But > for my fragile ego's sake if nothing else, let's just make sure I'm wrong, ok? :) Ahhh, here is the rub. I have information that I believe to be true, from people in a position to know, who are not buying/selling. None of these people, on your side or mine, are willing to post any of this, so I guess it's up to you and I. OK, I put forth the info I have, which is wholly contradictory to yours, and it is my hope that you will proceed as I think you will. I have nothing to gain or lose. > > Your facts are not in order. > My facts may or may not be factual at all, but I'm willing to put it to the test, > since I have nothing to either lose nor profit by either way. I'm sure you've > already entertained the prospect that your information may or may not be factual > as well, and have sot out some type of proof? Long ago. My information comes from multiple sources, some in the industry, and some from NEDU, some from U of F. > Why do I ask? Two reasons. > Simply because these type of assertions you post here appear to be the same old > 'dime a dozen' never ending allegations of some wrong doing or impropriety from > someone who probably has some kind of agenda. Could be because the SCUBA industry is more permeated with shysters, liars and users than any other consumer based market I can think of. My agenda is the same as it has always been, and that is if I see someone post something as fact that I have reason to believe is in error, for whatever reason, I will put up the alternate view. One thing for sure, is that I haven't lied about any of it. Truth is often much stranger than fiction. I have been honest here at personal expense, and regretted it more than once. Doesn't change the truth or the search for it, which it is my intent is to support. > If I had a nickel for every... well, whatever... do you have an agenda with these folks Scott? Absolutely not. Never met any of them, have seen the 'breather, and I did send them a CD a while back with a bunch of old MK10 pics on it taken at NEDU graciously scanned for me by Chuck Tribolet), with the promise they would reciprocate with a CD of their old RB photo collection to add to mine. Never saw the reciprocation. > Secondly, Lord knows your having issues with certain dive industry manufacturers isn't exactly > unheard of now is it? =;-) Fesh up! I have been recruited and worked for a number of them, that's for sure, most have been full of sh.t as a Christmas Turkey. This has more to do with the fact that they have no moral fiber, and I am a sucker for a good line, than anything else. You gotta admit, Randy, the dive biz is full of manure and those who create it! > In the mean time, I've placed a call to Mr. Ready this afternoon. Unfortunately > he is out until Monday. So I called Dan Smith who is the PRISM Distributor for > Canada and he too is out till Monday. What a coincidence, maybe they're out > diving... like we should be? Nevertheless, I will put forth your allegations to > one or both of them personally (whomever I can get a hold of first), and report > back 1st hand... how's that? Perfect. I would expect no less. > I can even forward your allegations to one or both of them if you think that might get some better answers? Whatcha think? By all means. > Meanwhile, I've got a few questions out of shear curiosity for ya myself... > > The US Navy tested and rejected the Invader. It is not now, nor will it > > ever be adopted or in service with any agency of the US military. > > What USN document states that they've rejected the unit? I've never heard that > it was either adopted or rejected. Call NEDU and ask them. I was told by several individuals, who will remain nameless, who work with/at NEDU, and heard it from numerous other people in the loop. At one point I was interested in one myself, so I started calling people I knew, and got a story much different than the one you posted, and different than the one Ready presents. But, I was aware of this long before your post. I only posted my version because it is directly opposite of yours, and I did my homework too. > In fact, TMK no one has been awarded a contract as of yet since the Navy has > not yet decided what they're replacing their aging fleet of breathers with in the first place. > Still up for grabs AFAIK. Affirmative. > Maybe when someone actually impresses them, they'll order a shitload, I dunno? It has the potential to be a very lucrative contract, but will require a huge monetary investment. > However, what is a fact is that Steam Machines Inc. is spending some considerable > pesos making a new assembly plant to increase production of that very unit. What > may be speculation is the reasoning I was told... "in anticipation" [of possible > USN contracts] which in itself doesn't appear so unreasonable. May very well be. The information I have, from sources I trust, says that isn't going to happen. > > The report that is published on the Grey Wolf site was a preliminary that > > was incomplete and not supposed to be released. > > According to who, what, where? According to three people whom I know and respect, who have never lied to me, nor do they have reason to. > > Heads rolled about this (who released it and why?), > Who's head, where, when? The document itself, signed by the commanding officer > specifically states that a copy be sent to Steam Machines Inc. if they requested > it. So why would heads roll? (Reminds me of "Who ordered the code Red... You > want the truth, you can't handle the..." Hehehe. As I indicated, I was told that it was not supposed to be released, and that the fertilizer hit the ventilator over it. Probably because of sh.t like this. > > there was a JAG investigation, > > Now there's something criminal going on? Oy! What was the investigation report > number per chance? Where are the findings published? Who got in do-do and so > forth? If it's classified info, how did you find out? Got a link? Not necessarily criminal, but improper. Some of the other entities who also wanted to sell RB's to the Navy got pissed because they were spending their own money, and Ready was spending the Navy's money. At least that is the information I have. > > and at the last DEMA the NEDU guys made a very pointed visit to Mr. > > Reid's booth to let him know they were no longer asking, but demanding he > > stop using their name in advertising, or face the courts. > > You know this for a fact or is this hearsay? Hearsay. From several people, a couple of whom you know, and I think have dived with. > Who from NEDU went to see Peter at DEMA exactly? Ask Mr. Ready or call the Navy, I dont have that information. > What was his/her name/rank etc. and where can they be reached? > Secondly, I've never seen any Steam Machines advertisement that ever used NEDU in > their advertising other than to point people to the third party independent > research done by the Navy. What kind of impropriety could that possibly be? Research is not approval. The Navy paid to have a look at it and gave it a pass. Mr. Ready was "making it known" for his own reasons that the Invader was being looked at by the Navy. > > The Invaders that the NEDU had are now in the hands of U of F, the Navy > > gave them the units rather than throw them in the garbage, > > Yes indeed, the University of Florida did get a shitload of them, for free even, > those lucky SOBs. But why pray tell, would the Navy give rejected, dangerous POS > (your allegation) . Stop right there. I *did not* call the Prism/Invader a POS, ever. What I said was that there are "facts" contradictory to what "facts" you report, and other units available. > CCRs, to divers of the U of F? Doesn't the Navy like those > people or what? Could there possibly be another explanation as to why the Navy > gave all those units to the University besides saving landfill space? Call NEDU and ask them. The information I have is that they werent going to dive them, and wanted to get rid of them. They are also giving away older MK15's, which are no longer suitable for service, to approved organizations. > > In other words, the US Navy paid for, and rejected the result of, the > > prototyping evolution. > > Why would the Navy reject its own findings of the results of the prototyping and > evaluation they paid for? That doesn't sound very logical. That report was written and released *before* the testing had completed it's full evolution. Don't take my word for it. Contact the Navy and ask for yourself. Or have Ready give you a POC, and let us all ask. If what I have been getting for information is bullshit, I want to know it, and I will make it known in no uncertain terms that I don't appreciate it, and further attenuate my dealings with said bullshit spreader. I also want in known right now that *none* of this comes from Leon. He and his rebreather stand on their very own merits. > > As far as the rest of the story with Ready and Tom Mount, all I can say > > is someone is feeding you bullshit with a large spoon. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it, and is openly vocal about their distaste of IANTDs CEO. Nevertheless, I still > think it holds some truths. YMMV. Call Tom and ask him. > > And to top it all off, you never once mentioned the InnerSpace Systems > > Megalodon, which is without peer in the rebreather realm. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for them, what? Come on, I know there's got to be something here... what else can > you share with us? I have known Leon Scamahorn since 1997, after meeting him at Rons shop. He brought his MK16 and his early Megalodon to the 1st SCUBA fest we arranged up here in 1999, where I also met Digital Dave and saw the first early KISS breather he and Gordon Smith were building. Really a neat little machine. Biological controller and a lot of home made stuff, including wings. I have done work and contract work for Leon at ISC, Brad Gilmore at Atomox, Patrick Duffy at OxyCheq, the Jackals at Abyss, Kevin Juergenson at Juergenson Marine, and several others who need no further mention. 6 months ago, I started working for Leon full time as his machinist/project engineer. This is/has been no secret to anyone. However, this has nothing to do with anything, except you stated in your post that you had investigated all the rebreathers, and never once mentioned the Megalodon, which is one of the very best. I have been preaching the Meg for a long time before I went to work for Leon. I know him, his background, and have seen with my own eyes his testing regimen. http://groups.google.com/groups?q=megalodon+group:rec.scuba+author:Scott&hl=en&l r=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&selm=vgm4k7rnrb4mff%40corp.supe rnews.com&rnum=3 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=megalodon+group:rec.scuba+author:Scott&hl=en&l r=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&selm=vdkksj9ejl4930%40corp.supe rnews.com&rnum=5 > > Ping me off line and I'll send you some information. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are) but lets simply recognize them as the "gossip has it..." type of discussion > that it is? Up to you. Gotcha. I wish you could come down here in the next few days. It would be a trip well worth your time, but you will have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. =;-) Give me a little while, and I'll put a page up on my site, with no links to anyone else, and you can see for yourself. My new grandson (and namesake) is here visiting me, and I am off early today to hang with him, so it will be later tonight or early tomorrow before I will take the time to put up the goods. They leave in a few days, so my time is his until then. Ping me off line, and I'll get you my phone number, or you can send me yours. Scott scottk at local access dot com > > Sir Randal, > > > > You know I love ya man, but this is all wrong. > From: <jhess@pc.fsu.edu> > To: <rebreather@nwdesigns.com> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Fact: The Navy has bought and tested eight Prism "Invaders". > Fact: The Navy has physically transferred these units to the locker of > the advanced science diving program (ASDP) of the Florida State > University, Panama City. Dr. M. Knafelc was personally present when the > units were transferred, and from her I learned that the units had not > been in the water for over a year. Richard Steckel spent some time > working on the systems after they arrived at FSU. > Fact: Mr Mike Zinzser, USN diver ret. the new director of the ASDP and > university dive officer, has approached academic students and [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Joerg > Joerg "York" Hess > Remote Sensing, Underwater Robotics and Technical Communications [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Office +1 (850) 872-4750 Ext 290 > FAX +1 (850) 522 3773 > > > Sir Randal, > > > [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > Office +1 (850) 872-4750 Ext 290 > > FAX +1 (850) 522 3773 Disturbing, to say the least. Mr. Hess shares what appears to be some vague allegations of misconduct and/or impropriaty displayed by Mr. Zinzser and Dr. Kelley. Appears that some ego's may have run amiss perhaps? -- Randy F. Milak ~If you throw a cat out a car window, does it become kitty litter?~ > Disturbing, to say the least. Mr. Hess shares what appears to be some vague > allegations of misconduct and/or impropriaty displayed by Mr. Zinzser and Dr. > Kelley. Appears that some ego's may have run amiss perhaps? There has been a lot of BS and a lot of people getting run over behind this whole scene. I don't speak for Joerg, but the issue seems to be that Joerg is in a position where he has been under the thumbs of certain people because of his visa, and at this point he has nothing to lose or gain, and simply wanted to get some things off his chest that he felt were compelling. Scott, You forgot to post these too. Best Wishes, Sharon Ken Shaw from FSU (kshaw@pc.fsu.edu) asked me to forward this message to the list. . . ---------------------------------------------- After a detailed review of Joerg's e-mail, it is clear he is promulgating a personal agenda. As was self-proclaimed, much of Joerg's e-mail was subjective and much of what was written was out of context or inaccurate. His views do not represent those of the university or its officials. At Florida State University, diving safety is of utmost importance as is having qualified personnel on our staff (e.g., Michael Zinszer and Tom Kelley). Our partnerships with the Navy and other organizations have been very strong so I apologize for the tone and content of the e-mail. If there are any questions regarding the diving at Florida State University Panama City Campus, please contact Tom Kelley, Michael Zinszer, or myself at our campus number, 850-872-4750. Sincerely, Ken Shaw Dr. Ken Shaw, Associate Dean Florida State University at Panama City 4750 Collegiate Drive Panama City, FL 32405 And Further to the personal attack on Mike Zinszer by Mr J Hess, written under the pretense of speaking for the University and abusing his position within FSU to lend creditability to his post and the subsequent rebuttal by Dr Ken Shaw, Associate Dean of FSU, SMI wishes to clarify some important points raised; 1. It is our understanding that the USN has made certain PRISM's available to FSU, which are on loan and remain the property of the USN. 2. As the manufacturer of these units SMI has been in communication with FSU with the goal of helping them to establish a full training program. At no time has any "Grand fathering" or short cuts in training standards or operating procedures been suggested or asked for by either party. The only impropriety here has been instigated by Mr Hess, not as some would have you believe by SMI, FSU, ASDP or any of the individuals singled out in his post. Sincerely, Sharon Readey > > > Sir Randal, > > > [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > Office +1 (850) 872-4750 Ext 290 > > FAX +1 (850) 522 3773 > Scott, > > You forgot to post these too. No, Sharon, I didn't forget anything, I figured you would take care of it. Also, I didn't post a lot of things I could have. I don't care what you or the folks at FSU say about Joerg, he is my friend and a good man, and I believe him 110%. End of discussion. Leon just got off the phone with your husband, after being big enough to call and try to bury this thing, and offer an apology, so I have nothing else to say to or about you or your rebreather, company or friends, and I would appreciate it if you would extend ISC and I the same courtesy. Best Regards, Scott www.selchie.com Sharon Readey schrieb: > Scott, > > You forgot to post these too. Don't through mud when it sticks to your fingers. Matthias > Sir Randal, > > You know I love ya man, but this is all wrong. Don't worry, I still Luv ya man! > Your facts are not in order. Truth. Merriman Websters defines that word as, "the body of real things, events, and facts". So there's the official definition of truth. But then there's the whole truth and nothing but the truth etc. and so on. Snippets of the truth isn't exactly the whole truth. Often we're told things that are not a lie whatsoever; the statement itself can in fact hold truth. Unfortunately, without the bigger picture, or more accurately the whole story, things can take on a significantly different appearance as we all know. That's what appears to have happened here, as I've discovered today. This afternoon I spent well over an hour on the telephone with Mr. Peter Ready, CEO of Steam Machines Inc., inventor/manufacturer of the PRISM CCR. Not only do I appreciate the time he spent with me but was taken aback by his genuine forthright candor with respect to answering some really harsh allegations while providing proof and/or confirmation of such. Mr. Ready stated to me for the record that he has no problem whatsoever telling the whole story as well as dispelling any myths and/or rumors. I thanked him for that. So, after a wonderfully extensive and informative conversation, and being a royal pain in his a.s, all I'm going to do is rely the Reader's Digest version. I leave it to the individual reader to make up their own minds. > The US Navy tested and rejected the Invader. The "The US Navy tested...the Invader" is absolutely true. Over a course of years in fact. USN first bought 3 units and did 6 to 8 months of initial testing. Went on from there. "...rejected the Invader.", is only partially true, and there's a bit more to it than that. The "Invader" didn't get rejected per se, but more accurately, the material of a component of said unit got rejected, thereby rendering the unit out of mil. spec.. The mil. spec. required the unit to be equipped with a delrin part instead of 'xyz' material Steam Machines used. After reviewing the report, they corrected the shortfall, and gave them what they wanted, which was the Delrin part. No biggy. That's as simple as it gets folks. I believe that to be an absolute fact. Why? Because after being asked if he could prove the latter, Mr. Ready read to me the exact excerpt from the actual USN test report verbatim. As if that wasn't enough, he also invited me to read it with my own two eyes, whenever I'd like, I just need to make it to SoCal. Well, I'm going to DEMA this October in Houston and will take Mr. Ready up on his generous invitation to read the entire report simply for my own curiosity (I am a client afterall). He said 'no problem'. End of chapter. Interestingly, I discovered that the component(s) they made material changes to (that being Delrin), was actually the catalyst to making that particular spec'd unit's name change to the "Invader". Other than that, it's the same damn unit for all intents and purposes. > It is not now, nor will it ever be adopted or in service with any agency of > the US military. Not sure what that means since clearly the USN currently holds in its possession an undisclosed number of units. However, no major contract has been awarded to anyone if that's what is meant here. Everything's still up for grabs and will remain that way until the USN sees fit to do otherwise. However, consider this, Steam Machines had the only commercially available unit to actually pass the non manned dive testing. They beat out Carlton and Divex - the only 2 other front runners whom beat out absolutely everyone else in the pact. Besides the latter, Steam Machines had the only unit to go on to manned dive testing. Other than the latter mentioned part being rejected because of a non mil. spec. material, it passed with flying colors. > The report that is published on the Grey Wolf site was a preliminary that > was incomplete and not supposed to be released. > Heads rolled about this (who released it and why?), there was a JAG > investigation, The latter appears to simply be an over dramatized version of the truth. Now, I don't have a clue what the difference is between a technical memo and/or what a classified test report constitutes but apparently I'm not alone since certain brass at the USN don't seem to know either. The reality is, that the document published on the Grey Wolf site is actually a technical memo, not a test report. Yeah, some feathers got ruffled in the confusion but in the end, no one, except maybe PRISMs competition has any problem with it. As far as the actual test report goes, well, the USN requested [demanded?] Steam Machines not publish the actual test results because the nature of the testing itself could give away certain operational/tactical aspects they'd rather not have made public. Understandable IMHO. Who knows, there may even be some political motivation in there as well, but who cares? Nevertheless, Mr. Ready is chomping at the bit, wanting to openly publish all of the research findings, for all to scrutinize, however, he is respectfully abiding by their request, not to openly publish. If you're a potential client, walk into his office and ask to see it. My guess is, he'll show you. Now, I dunno if he's altruistic about not publishing or just worried about a treason charge? Who knows, who cares? The reality is, if you're truly interested, phone him up. My guess is, he'd be very forthcoming and accommodating and I think you'll be impressed by what you see. > and at the last DEMA the NEDU guys made a very pointed visit to Mr. Reid's > booth to let him know they were no longer asking, but demanding he stop using > their name in advertising, or face the courts. Untrue on both counts. > The Invaders that the NEDU had are now in the hands of U of F, the Navy gave > them the units rather than throw them in the garbage, Not exactly true. The units given to the U of F are only on loan to them and remain the property of the USN. Since the USN orders replacement parts from Steam Machines, I somehow doubt they want to throw them in the garbage. Consider the following: FACT: That unit met the USN Letter of Requirement (LOR) FACT: Technically it didn't pass everything due to the latter mentioned delrin part (which was later corrected); it is/was however the closet to mil spec. over every other commercially available unit on the market. FACT: The PRISM CCR has the lowest work of breathing (WOB) of any CCR commercially available on the market today including a lower WOB than the CisLunar, my one time all around favorite CCR. FACT: It even has a longer scrubber duration than the Cis had. FACT: Only 3 companies made it to the USNs non-manned testing, and only Steam Machines unit moved on to manned dive testing. That is not a machine one is likely to through in the garbage. > after Ready fleeced them for an enormous amount of money. Hehehe! I asked Peter, "did you fleece the USN". He said, "no". Would you expect anything else? But in all fairness, I find that latter allegation rather amusing after he told me what he sold those units for. He sold them off the shelf units at a tenth of what the navy's current breathers are soaking the US taxpayer for and _gave_ them a rental unit with something like 300 hours of use on it (at a moments notice), to use/abuse and run it through a new vs. old environmental testing regime and so forth. That testing wasn't exactly free for Steam Machines folks. Peter may be a brilliant engineer, but IMO I think he could have got 3 times what he actually sold them for, considering their unit's duration is as good as if not better than the MK16 which costs enormous bucks. His company, his choice. Consider, the guys got a company with 5 employees. Does anyone honestly believe there's some kind of big political clout their? ;) Hardly the giant of the dive industry, yet he's being painted as someone who's fleeced the USN? Someone may be getting fleeced but I don't think it's the Navy. > In other words, the US Navy paid for, and rejected the result of, the > prototyping evolution. There were a lot of sparks over that one as well. Like any large organization, I'm certain the USN isn't without it's fair share of politics and it's probably reasonable that some sparks may have flown, who knows? Loyalties and what have you. Doesn't change the fact that Steam Machines unit kicked everyone else's a.s, like it or not. The little guy up against a billion dollar giant of industry like Drager, yet Peter Readys Incredible Steam Machine kicked their a.s. Big companies have political clout and can rock the boat even through a chain of command. I'd suggest that guys with 5 employees don't play that game, and usually stick to simply improving their product. YMMV. > As far as the rest of the story with Ready and Tom Mount, all I can say is > someone is feeding you bullshit with a large spoon. Mr. Ready is nothing if not a gentleman. He probably wouldn't last too long in this forum. My guess is, you bastards would either corrupt him, or drive him to drink. Suffice it to say he has nothing but kind words for Tom Mount. Steam Machines has a number of reasons why they like to work with NAUI. Sometime down the road, I'm certain this would make an excellent discussion. I still buy the egotistical story myself but whatever. :) > And to top it all off, you never once mentioned the InnerSpace Systems > Megalodon, which is without peer in the rebreather realm. Well, I never mentioned several CCRs I researched either. This all started because I thought the Inspiration was a POS - and some test data proved it - was happy I never bought one - but was very happy with my PRISM and wanted to share all of the latter with all of you nice folks. :) In fact, after the conversation I had with Mr. Ready today, I'm thinking of getting my wife a PRISM for her birthday this September. Seriously, what could be more romantic than a silent little unit that just keeps going and going and going... =;-) As an aside FYI Scott, Peter says he never got your CD, it stayed with Kevin and that you would know what that meant. God bless and safe diving everyone. -- Randy F. Milak ~A flash of light, a cloud of dust, and... What was the question?~ Randy, I will have more for you later, really busy now. This weekend I will be meeting with two people, one of whom was at NEDU when the situation evolved. I will grill him and show him your letters. I have a POC for you at NEDU, and U of F, but I wont post them here. If you are happy with Mr. Ready's explanations (which can hardly be considered objective), and like your Prism, far out, have fun diving it. And, not that it matters, but I had an e-mail exchange with Mrs. Ready, and she gave me the address, I mailed the disk myself, the same day I sent them to others; Juergensen had nothing to do with it, and I will also warn you that there is a *lot* of backchannel BS there, between Ready and Juergensen, that I don't care to be involved in. Scott > > Sir Randal, > > [quoted text clipped - 179 lines] > Randy F. Milak > ~A flash of light, a cloud of dust, and... What was the question?~ Hello Scott, To set the record straight here the CD in question was some pictures of a Mk10 that you had digitised from some negatives you had. You offered to send out a copy of your CD to anyone who asked - and I replied as did several others. You chose to send one CD out with a email list of who was next in the chain to forward it to, my name and address was part of those listed and I pinged you privately after you had forwarded it because the CD never showed up. That was April 2000, when I still had not seen it by November 2000 I sent an email to Patrick Duffy who was ahead of my name in the list and at that point he too had not received it and he was going to get it from Kevin the following week. For whatever reason that CD never made it to me. As for your comments on your POC within NEDU - if you'd care to email me privately I would be happy to give you several POCs for the people who were actually involved in the testing, that way you can check for yourself. Alternatively, if your passing through, feel free to visit and view the data for yourself. Best Wishes, Sharon > And, not that it matters, but I had an e-mail exchange with Mrs. Ready, and > she gave me the address, I mailed the disk > myself, the same day I sent them to others; Juergensen had nothing to do > with it, > To set the record straight here the CD in question was some pictures > of a Mk10 that you had digitised from some negatives you had. No, they were images of a Mk10 scanned from slides we got from the widow of Bruce Templin. The slides are now at NEDU. > You offered to send out a copy of your CD to anyone who asked - and I > replied as did several others. You chose to send one CD out with a > email list of who was next in the chain to forward it to, my name and > address was part of those listed and I pinged you privately after you > had forwarded it because the CD never showed up. I sent out ten CD's, including the one I sent to you folks. Ask around. > That was April 2000, when I still had not seen it by November 2000 I > sent an email to Patrick Duffy who was ahead of my name in the list > and at that point he too had not received it and he was going to get > it from Kevin the following week. For whatever reason that CD never > made it to me. Take that one up with Kevin. I sent one to your address, Bev Morgan, Kevin J., and several others. Instead of contacting Patrick or anyone else, you could have contacted me. I would have been happy to provide another disk. You want one now? I'll be happy to send another. > As for your comments on your POC within NEDU - if you'd care to email > me privately I would be happy to give you several POCs for the people > who were actually involved in the testing, that way you can check for > yourself. Alternatively, if your passing through, feel free to visit > and view the data for yourself. Dr. Clark is the POC I was given. Also; if what you have to share is not supposed to be used for commercial purposes or disclosed, I'd rather not view it. If it isn't suitable for disclosure, its not suitable for disclosure. I have been talking and working with several people who were actually involved in the sequence for the past week. Many people dive and love the Prism, including Randy Milak whom I respect and admire, and I wish you guys nothing but success and prosperity, but the truth is that I stand by my original post; the Prism has not been "showered with praise", accepted or in use by the US Navy. Simple as that. Best Regards, Scott Hello Scott, My recollection of the events is a little different. I checked my files and couldn't find the email that you sent to everyone with the shipping chain list, but then I have crashed my computer a couple of times since then:-) However I would like to set the record straight as to my understanding of the events and provide some support and verification. As I understood it you had such interest that you chose to send one CD out with a list of people and addresses to whom it should be sent when the then recepient had finished copying it or whatever. You asked everyone to forward it to the next person on the list to save on the expense of sending to everyone indivdually, which was certainly most reasonable. I emailed you about the status and you asked that I ping you if it didn't show up, which I did. Rather than keep bugging you, I merely asked Patrick, who was local to me and was the receipent just ahead of me on your list if he had heard anything of the CD and it's path Here is the last reply I got from Patrick regarding the CD. Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:08:17 -0500 (EST) From: Patrick Duffy <pduffyca@earthlink.net> To: Shas Readey <shas_readey@steammachines.com> Shas, I did get the literature ... thanks. Kevin does have the disck and I will pick it up from him over the next week or so. Patrick ------Original Message------ From: Shas Readey <shas_readey@steammachines.com> To: Patrick Duffy <pduffyca@earthlink.net> Sent: November 1, 2000 9:11:58 PM GMT Subject: RE: Mk10 CD? Patrick, I figured you'd moved when Scott forwarded the list - so I used it to forward your copy of the Historical Diver and Carleton brochure - hope you got them? Best Wishes Sharon t 02:10 PM 10/30/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Shas, > >I never got it, the Dude still has it (I assume). I will call him and see >if he has it and if so, ask hime to forward it along. > >I'll let you know the outcome either way. > >By the way, we have been here for almost 4 months now and just moved into a >new house in Agua Dulce ... almost three acres of horse property that is >fully landscaped and a guest house for all of my dive gear. > >Still unpacking so have not even had time to take my boat out or even get >wet. > >Take care, > >Patrick When the CD didn't come and I heard nothing else I just stopped asking and moved on - until it was raised by you insinuating that I had misrepresented myself to you when the that was not so. > Dr. Clark is the POC I was given. We'll say no more. > Also; if what you have to share is not supposed to be used for commercial > purposes or disclosed, I'd rather not view it. > If it isn't suitable for disclosure, its not suitable for disclosure. > > I have been talking and working with several people who were actually > involved in the sequence for the past week. Let's recap here - it's okay for you to talk to people (who may or may not have a personal agenda), even repeat THEIR versions of the truth in a public forum and defend it, even though their telling you the data can't be disclosed to verify that their telling you the truth and not using you? But you'll decline an opportunity to actually look at the data for yourself, offered by the manufacturer who is entitled to have and use it, because THEIR telling you it's not suitable for disclosure? What are they afraid you'll see - the truth? FYI - The reports are classified as Distribution statement C - distribution authorised to US Government agencies and their contractors. We asked for permission to make them public domain. If as you say the Navy is not interested in having anything more to do with us then why would they care whether the data, which was paid for with your tax dollars, gets released to the US diving public or not? I would suggest that your not communicating with all the players here and may just have found yourself a pawn in someone else's propoganda machine. My offer for other POCs which will allow you to see both sides still stands, as does my invitation to see the data for yourself and draw your own conclusions. If I had anything to hide would I be willing to let you come in and see it for yourself? Best Wishes, Sharon > Dr. Clark is the POC I was given. After an e-mail exchange with Dr. Clark, I am posting that the above information is incorrect, according to Dr. Clark; "Most of those directly responsible for the testing have left NEDU, and in one case, have left the Navy." Scott > Linked below is the recently released (declassified? April 15, 2004) U.S. Naval > Warfare Center's Diving and Life Support Divisions (partial) test results of the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://greywolfinnovations.com/NEDU_Test_Report.pdf CE isn't a seal of approval - it's a self-certification, where the manufacturer states that the product conforms to EU standards. Presumably, if it was shown not to conform, the manufacturer would then be fined. Plenty of shoddy products carry CE marks, as do many good ones. It should not be taken as a sign of quality or lack thereof - it just means that the product meets certain minimum standards. Objective, independent testing by a body like the US Navy is always going to be a better judge of a product. Benedict. SignatureAdd the 'co' to reply "> Linked below is the recently released (declassified? April 15, 2004) U.S. Naval > Warfare Center's Diving and Life Support Divisions (partial) test results of the > Buddy Inspiration fully closed mixed gas rebreather. In short, the unit failed on [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Randy F. Milak > ~Apparently, the cost of living hasn't affected its popularity!~ That might be the case But why would anyone from ambient pressure diving give a sh.t what the USN think being a British company if they want to sell the inspiration in the U.K it has be CE approved ( just like everything else ). They have sold 6000+ units and probably sell more in one week than some manufactures have sold in their life. MarkW > That might be the case But why would anyone from ambient pressure diving > give a sh.t what the USN think being a British company if they want to sell > the inspiration in the U.K it has be CE approved ( just like everything > else ). They have sold 6000+ units and probably sell more in one week than > some manufactures have sold in their life. Which means they market well, not that they make a good unit. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscuba.com > Which means they market well, not that they make a good unit. > > Brian > Edmonton, Alberta > www.mossmanscuba.com Maybe But any other rebreather manufacture would loves to have sales figures like that.. all this inspiration slagging looks like jealousy.. Surely if it was that crap you would not be able to sell it in the States? MarkW nospam to scuba to reply Mark Williams schrieb: > Maybe But any other rebreather manufacture would loves to have sales figures > like that.. all this inspiration slagging looks like jealousy.. You mean all the deceased ones were just trying to be obnoxious ? Matthias > Mark Williams schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Matthias There can't be any deceased ones. Diving isn't dangerous, remember? Lee > > Which means they market well, not that they make a good unit. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > like that.. all this inspiration slagging looks like jealousy.. Surely if it > was that crap you would not be able to sell it in the States? Ever heard of McDonald's? > MarkW > > nospam to scuba to reply > > Which means they market well, not that they make a good unit. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > like that.. all this inspiration slagging looks like jealousy.. Surely if it > was that crap you would not be able to sell it in the States? Why not? We allow Windows to be sold here. The message <40ABBE17.DDECBAD6@excite.com> from Brian Nadwidny <nadwidny@excite.com> contains these words: > Which means they market well, not that they make a good unit. I think the unit has now been crash tested by enough divers in enough different conditions over enough time that you would be hard pushed to say it wasn't a solid unit. There will always be room for improvement as new technologies develop. Whenever I dive off-island the majority of divers now use them, I've only seen one Mk15 and one KISS otherwise. Their customer service is first rate, I say that even though I had problems initially. I looked at all the other possibilities, and continue to do so, and so far have yet to see a more viable alternative, although the Meg if I lived in the US would be a contender http://www.selchie.com/ > http://www.selchie.com/ Very professional site Scott, well done. Will the Megalodon be at DEMA this year? -- Randy F. Milak ~Women like silent men. They think we're listening!~ > > http://www.selchie.com/ > Very professional site Scott, well done. Will the Megalodon be at DEMA this > year? Thank you, Randy, I am flattered. But, I gotta say that if it wasnt for WYSIWYG software like FrontPage... Yeah man. It has been there for the last 4. The idea behind the site is to let the Meg speak for itself. |
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