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Scuba Forum / General / November 2003Question: Split-fin in strong current
Hi everybody, I am going to buy a pair of "apollo bio pro" split fins but this morning one of my friend told me that split fins could not be used in current because they would not generate enough propellant, is that true? He suggested me to go for paddle fins , I would like to hear some more advice, thanks. Casey Best advice I can come up with is "Try a pair and see how they work for you." I don't like vented fins, Jet Fins for example. I also don't like any of the newest line of high tech fins. I do like my Mares TRE and Quatro Power fins. You might not like either. There's only one way to decide what is best for you. -- Lee Bell, CID > Hi everybody, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Casey >I am going to buy a pair of "apollo bio pro" split fins > but this morning one of my friend told me that split fins could not be used > in current because they would not generate enough propellant, is that true? > He suggested me to go for paddle fins , I would like to hear some more > advice, thanks. Plain and simple--split fins are gimmicks--the Apollos more than most. You can forget swimming agaisnt a current or properly using any other finning technique them at all. People will hate you for strring up silt as well. Do not buy into the speed bullshit either--the object is to enjoy diving. The air consumption improvement claims are bullshit as well. AirHog  Signature"Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him." > Plain and simple--split fins are gimmicks--the Apollos more than most. You > can forget swimming agaisnt a current or properly using any other finning [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > AirHog Hmmm. Strong opinion. I have a pair of Oceanic V12's. They're the best fins I've ever used. They are NOT good in a current, or for trying to fin up onto a RIB. However, they are the most comfortable, easy to don, coolest looking, and toughest fins I've owned. I can quite happily frog kick in them, they cause little downdraft, and so minimal silt disturbance, and they induce zero leg fatigue. Having suffered from knee injuries years ago, I find that rigid fins cause joint pain when flutter or frog kicking due to the resistance going back through the joint. With the soft flexible material, they offer less resistance but still provide me with the same propulsion. In fact, after trying to explain the theory to students, I often offer them the chance to try to out-fin me underwater. Only a couple of Royal Marines have achieved it so far.... However, as previously stated, they provide little 'thrust' and so are no good for battling strong currents, or propelling yourself up onto a boat. HTH > Hmmm. Strong opinion. It is a simple concept called the truth. > I have a pair of Oceanic V12's. They're the best fins I've ever used. You should try more fins. > They are NOT good in a current, I said that. >or for trying to fin up onto a RIB. > However, they are the most comfortable, easy to don, coolest looking, and > toughest fins I've owned. There ya go--trying to score a piece of a.s underwater with the looks of your fins. > I can quite happily frog kick in them, they cause little downdraft, and so > minimal silt disturbance, and they induce zero leg fatigue. Not properly you cannot. Split fins are an entanglement haZzard as well. You also cannot perform types of kicks that may be needed for other situations you may find yourself in. > Having suffered from knee injuries years ago, I find that rigid fins cause > joint pain when flutter or frog kicking due to the resistance going back > through the joint. Funny Mrs. Hog has had two rebuilds of her knees and kicks her Jets like there are no tomorrow. > With the soft flexible material, they offer less resistance but still > provide me with the same propulsion. Bullshit. Next. > In fact, after trying to explain the theory to students, I often offer them > the chance to try to out-fin me underwater. Only a couple of Royal Marines > have achieved it so far.... Since when is diving a competition? You work harder at going faster you suck more gas--fact. > However, as previously stated, they provide little 'thrust' and so are no > good for battling strong currents, or propelling yourself up onto a boat. We at Signature"Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him."least agree on this. AirHog > > Hmmm. Strong opinion. > > It is a simple concept called the truth. You're American, you'd have trouble with that concept... > You should try more fins. Uhhh...how many would you like me to try? > Not properly you cannot. Split fins are an entanglement haZzard as well. > You also cannot perform types of kicks that may be needed for other > situations you may find yourself in. Please explain how my splits are an entanglement hazard? And what other situations will I find myself in? You obviously know my diving habits? > Funny Mrs. Hog has had two rebuilds of her knees what was wrong with her knees? Did she wear them out whilst blowing her uncle?! > > With the soft flexible material, they offer less resistance but still > > provide me with the same propulsion. Go back to 'College' and re-take your Physics exams. > Since when is diving a competition? You work harder at going faster you > suck more gas--fact. Ummmm. the fact that it doesn't matter how much work I do underwater whilst training, the students will always be first out of gas. You obviously don't know the British Marines, they'll be the ones that don't shoot each other. 'Have a nice day' > > > Hmmm. Strong opinion. > > > > It is a simple concept called the truth. > > You're American, you'd have trouble with that concept... Normally, I am very patient with people on the newsgroups. After reading this remark, all I can say is blow me. > > You should try more fins. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > what was wrong with her knees? Did she wear them out whilst blowing her > uncle?! Uh, Oh, you've done it now... Mr. Tricky, meet your master, Sir Hog of Air. > > > With the soft flexible material, they offer less resistance but still > > > provide me with the same propulsion. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ummmm. the fact that it doesn't matter how much work I do underwater whilst > training, the students will always be first out of gas. Irrelevant. The harder you work, the faster you will run out of gas. If you can dive with less work, you can dive longer (based solely on gas consumption). That was the point. > You obviously don't know the British Marines, they'll be the ones that don't > shoot each other. He obviously doesn't care. > 'Have a nice day' > You're American, you'd have trouble with that concept... You can go back to sucking Blairs dick--the wannabe GWB. Hif wife said it best two years ago in one of your own newsrags--"Tony wish, if he could would be to be President of the USA." f.cking POM. > Uhhh...how many would you like me to try? If you tried the correct ones--the answer would be one. > Please explain how my splits are an entanglement hazard? Please explain to me how you never dive anywhere you have never dove befroe and know exactly what lies beneath each time you go down. > And what other situations will I find myself in? You obviously know my > diving habits? I can guess swimming pools since you are keenly aware that you will never face a situation differetn than the ones you have already faced... > what was wrong with her knees? Did she wear them out whilst blowing her > uncle?! I can promise you you will only make that statement once oon this side of the pond you POM motherf..king teasipping, a.s clown, besides she has no uncles and if you must know--it was skydiving--something I am sure that would terrify your weak wannabe an American mind. Remember over two hundred years ago who kicked whose a.s...Your pathetic piece of sh.t country does nothing but pissess in the wind and wishes it bestowed the freedom we have here...jealous cocksucker...tell me how many trick did your mother turn for a dime to how many drunken sailors before your conception? I may have been your dad--but a german sherpard beat me up the stairs....thank god for the IRA. > Go back to 'College' and re-take your Physics exams. No need. I know what I am speaking of an you, by your own posting...do not. > Ummmm. the fact that it doesn't matter how much work I do underwater whilst > training, the students will always be first out of gas. That explains it--your an instructor....that says volumes about you that I cannot match..you stupid piece of sh.t. I bet you wear the big girls blouse, don't ya? > You obviously don't know the British Marines, they'll be the ones that don't > shoot each other. Of course not--they never hit a goddamn thing they aim at. It is a tragadery to even call them marines. Our eagle scouts here--one on one in hand to hand to have them whimpering like the little bitches they are. The only thing the British Marines are good for, as well as your royal navy is taking it up the a.s from their American coutnerparts. YLAM, AirHog > 'Have a nice day' <YADA-YADA begin> </YADA-YADA end> Grow up.. Both of you..! iM -- Tourists don?t know where they?ve been, travelers don?t know where they?re going. > <YADA-YADA begin> > > </YADA-YADA end> > > Grow up.. Both of you..! I don't wanna-- stay young leave a handsome corpse. AirHog > I don't wanna-- stay young leave a handsome corpse. Damn, Hog... That's rather prophetic... Except the "handsome" part of it... <sick-grin> > > I don't wanna-- stay young leave a handsome corpse. > > Damn, Hog... That's rather prophetic... Except the "handsome" part of it... > <sick-grin> You dunno that, to his strange tastes he may well have been damn sexy... ;) rhys > > Damn, Hog... That's rather prophetic... Except the "handsome" part of > it... > > <sick-grin> > > > You dunno that, to his strange tastes he may well have been damn sexy... > ;) I thought he was pretty hot myself... Kimber "Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM.houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:YMpnb.3 > > I don't wanna-- stay young leave a handsome corpse. > > Damn, Hog... That's rather prophetic... Except the "handsome" part of it... > <sick-grin> Watch it Shelly --- my Hog was very handsome! *smile* Kimber "kim isaksen" <lysalf@hippie.dk.private.me> wrote in message news:ibilb.11220 > <YADA-YADA begin> > > </YADA-YADA end> > > Grow up.. Both of you..! Welcome to rec.scuba, apparently you have come to the wrong place. Don't let the door hit you on the a.s on the way out. Kimber > "kim isaksen" <lysalf@hippie.dk.private.me> wrote in message > news:ibilb.11220 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Don't let the door hit you on the a.s on the way out. Thank you very much for the advice. But I think I learn to much by staying around. Seems to me there?s vital information cruising the internet in these groups. Just out of curiosity. Where you from kimber ? Florida by chance ? iM > Thank you very much for the advice. > But I think I learn to much by staying around. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Florida by chance ? She is my lovely wife right here in Georgia--for the moment. AirHog Signature--AirHog-- "I'm coming and hell's coming with me." "kim isaksen" <lysalf@hippie.dk.private.me> wrote in message news:lxXlb.12061 > > > Grow up.. Both of you..! > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But I think I learn to much by staying around. > Seems to me there?s vital information cruising the internet in these groups. Heh -- you just might make it here after all! Expect none of the participants to "grow up".... the things you hear here about diving which is different to your own -- listen -- you may surprise yourself at what you may change about your diving gear/habits/etc. Those who are the most annoying (in general) posters that will seem to be the biggest a.sholes - keep reading - there are usually things to be learned between the bullshit that gets spewed. And have fun -- you know we do! (-: > Just out of curiosity. Where you from Kimber ? > Florida by chance ? I am originally from Southern California -- for now living in Georgia with my husband AirHog and our children. Where we end up next is still up for debate depending on who comes up with the best job offer for me. And you? Kimber > > Don't let the door hit you on the a.s on the way out. > > Thank you very much for the advice. > But I think I learn to much by staying around. > Seems to me there?s vital information cruising the internet in these groups. You are wise beyond your years . . . however many years that may be. > Just out of curiosity. Where you from kimber ? > Florida by chance ? ESG, Curtis, Jim Wyatt, Bullshark, I and others I've probably forgotten to mention, are from Florida. Kimber's from way up north somewhere, Atlanta, I think. 8^) Lee > > > Don't let the door hit you on the a.s on the way out. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You are wise beyond your years . . . however many years that may be. Well that?s a trick question. i guess im 22 boring years and 7 diving years old. > > Just out of curiosity. Where you from kimber ? > > Florida by chance ? > > ESG, Curtis, Jim Wyatt, Bullshark, I and others I've probably forgotten to > mention, are from Florida. Kimber's from way up north somewhere, Atlanta, I > think. 8^) So i was way off then. !! iM from copenhagen. Beat that. But the next six months i'll be cruisin? around malaysia, indonesia and thailand. Mainly underwater. Split fins or not. btw. Has anyone been to perhentian osland in malaysia ? (out of topic i know, but anyway ?) iM > Lee > > You should try more fins. > > Uhhh...how many would you like me to try? Well -- which ones have you tried? Then we can narrow it down for you. > > Funny Mrs. Hog has had two rebuilds of her knees > > what was wrong with her knees? Did she wear them out whilst blowing her > uncle?! Nice words there towards somebody you have no clue about. BTW -- I am the one you are refering to. I doubt you have the sac to do many of the things I have. Things that at times have led to injury. You end up with knee surgery by gardening or the old lady kick your a.s for being to dumb to service her properly? > 'Have a nice day' You bet I will. Kimber - wife to AirHog > BTW -- I am the one you are refering to. I doubt you have the sac to do > many of the things I have. Things that at times have led to injury. You > end up with knee surgery by gardening or the old lady kick your a.s for > being to dumb to service her properly? Hmm, no. Motocross. 10 years racing. Broken pelvis. Both clavicles. One arm. One leg. 2 ripped knees. Plus the minor stuff like bruised kidneys, head trauma, broken fingers etc. But the trophies make up for all of these. Ta ta! > Hmm, no. > Motocross. 10 years racing. > Broken pelvis. Both clavicles. One arm. One leg. 2 ripped knees. > Plus the minor stuff like bruised kidneys, head trauma, broken fingers etc. > > But the trophies make up for all of these. Motocross(no offense Ron) Sorry kimber is used to high speed jacked up sportbikes. Another of the things that we have in common. SO take your dirt track bikes and shove them up your a.s. Dragging a knee at 175 is a little more fun than falling in the dirt.... Pussy. AirHog > > BTW -- I am the one you are refering to. I doubt you have the sac to do > > many of the things I have. Things that at times have led to injury. You [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Plus the minor stuff like bruised kidneys, head trauma, broken fingers etc. > But the trophies make up for all of these. 3 years Enduro racing before I flipped the bike and fractured a lower lumbar vertebra. You think the trophies are worth it, just wait until you get old enough for your earlier injuries to come back and punish you. After my accident, I no longer had the guts to ride a dirt bike agressively enough to make it worth while, so I switched to a safer hobby . . . drag racing big bores. Made it to the championships three years in a row, but never managed to take home the big prize. Good thing the trophies made it worthwhile because the money damned sure didn't. Lee >> > BTW -- I am the one you are refering to. I doubt you have the sac to do >> > many of the things I have. Things that at times have led to injury. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >never managed to take home the big prize. Good thing the trophies made it >worthwhile because the money damned sure didn't. Drag bikes. Hmmm. Reminds me of a comment I once heard from a group of road racers: "what can you say about someone who get's his thrills in 7 seconds on a Saturday night." (I did a little road racing, but consider myself much more of a touring rider than anything else. You know, long, slow trips ;-). Alan > "what can you say about someone who get's his thrills in 7 seconds on a > Saturday night." I admit that used to be me early in high dchool on Saterday nights... <wink> SignatureAirHog "there's the wolf pack and the sled dogs, and you have a God given right to have your nose up under a tail for as long as you want.".. > Drag bikes. Hmmm. Reminds me of a comment I once heard from a group of road > racers: "what can you say about someone who get's his thrills in 7 seconds on a > Saturday night." Depends on the competition. Sometimes you can say "congratulations." Other times, you have to say . . . get out the checkbook, you need to go faster. Whatever you say, you need to say it fast, cause we're going to be out of earshot real soon. > (I did a little road racing, but consider myself much more of a touring rider > than anything else. You know, long, slow trips ;-). I toured the country on a bike back in 1978. It was a wonderful trip. When I got back, I sold that bike and bought the drag bike, well, actually, it was a 1982 Suzuki 1100. It was never started stock. If you recall, 1982 was the first year for the humpback tanks. When I showed up at Daytona motorcycle speed week in 1982 with an obviously non stock 82 bike, I couldn't buy a race. Try as I had, you just can't hide a 6 inch extension of the swingarm. Nobody wanted to be the first to give me a try. Good thing since I had a bad ground in the ignition. It would break up before building respectable RPM. Once that problem was fixed the bike ran very strong. It was never beaten by a street bike and, thanks to a lot of time on the track, shut down more than a couple of bikes running prostock motors. The bike's important, but sometimes the rider is more important. By the time I could afford to race, I was too old to start road racing and even then, could not afford to do it right. No matter, dragging my knee while going around a corner at more than 100 mph has never been my idea of fun. Lee > "Airhog" <mick@youwishyouknew.net> wrote in message > > > With the soft flexible material, they offer less resistance but still > > > provide me with the same propulsion. > > Go back to 'College' and re-take your Physics exams. As a physi > > > With the soft flexible material, they offer less resistance but still > > > provide me with the same propulsion. > > Go back to 'College' and re-take your Physics exams. As a physics major, this statement intrigues me. Exactly which physical concept or law makes your splits offer less resistance but the same propulsion? I bet I'm going to hear a regurgitation of the "drag" argument I see on the splits websites. Jon > I bet I'm going to hear a regurgitation of the "drag" argument I see on the > splits websites. Get them stud puppy... AirHog "Airhog" <mick@youwishyouknew.net> entertained us with: : Split fins are an entanglement haZzard as well. You mean like a snorkel? You DIR guys crack me up. Dan Bracuk As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination. The Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > "Airhog" <mick@youwishyouknew.net> entertained us with: > : Split fins are an entanglement haZzard as well. > > You mean like a snorkel? You DIR guys crack me up. Snorkles and splits belong nailed to a wall in the basement. DIR? whats that? You have heard me say it before.... I dove with the "S" trokes this past summer and saw nary a snorkle in the whole bunch...though Lee coulda been hiding one in his Flag speedo... Airhog > Snorkles and splits belong nailed to a wall in the basement. No... snorkels belong on snorkelers, splits belong on the blackjack table. >> "Airhog" <mick@youwishyouknew.net> entertained us with: >> : Split fins are an entanglement haZzard as well. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I dove with the "S" trokes this past summer and saw nary a snorkle in the >whole bunch...though Lee coulda been hiding one in his Flag speedo... Although I expect you thought he was happy to see you :-) > Although I expect you thought he was happy to see you :-) Well...er...well...er...ah.....er....did you know Popeye is in your state right now? ;-P AirHog Signature"I'm coming and hell's coming with me." "Tricky" <scubatricky@nospamyahoo.co.uk> entertained us with: :With the soft flexible material, they offer less resistance but still :provide me with the same propulsion. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] :However, as previously stated, they provide little 'thrust' and so are no :good for battling strong currents, or propelling yourself up onto a boat. This doesn't make sense. If they have good propulsion in calm water, why would they have poor thrust in a current? Dan Bracuk As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination. The Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > :However, as previously stated, they provide little 'thrust' and so are no > :good for battling strong currents, or propelling yourself up onto a boat. > > This doesn't make sense. If they have good propulsion in calm water, why would > they have poor thrust in a current? This is the only criticism I've run across with any consistency. It would appear that with their floppy nature they don't respond well to quick explosive movements. Drew "Drew A. Dunn" :... Dan Bracuk wrote: > > :However, as previously stated, they provide little 'thrust' and so are no > > :good for battling strong currents, or propelling yourself up onto a boat. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It would appear that with their floppy nature they don't respond well to quick > explosive movements. That comment about trouble with quick explosive movements makes sense, and corresponds to what I noticed the couple of times I tried out the Apollo BioFIns. The "no good in current" mantra puzzles me. Once I got going, the split fins propelled me along at a much faster rate than with straight paddle fins. Whether it's 4mph in still water, or making 1mph headway against a 3mph current seems pretty much the same to me. What is deceptive about the split fins is that you don't FEEL like you are zooming along..... that is until you look back and see your buddy struggling to catch up with you, or until you look down at the bottom and see how fast you are really going. I didn't like the difficulty of making fine adjustments to attitude and doing things like helicopter turns. I didn't like the generally "floppy" or "not connected to the water" sort of feeling. But for zooming straight ahead, in either still water or current, those split fins really rock! Charlie Allen > But for zooming straight ahead, in either still water or current, those > split fins really rock! And it's Allen on the outside followed by Painter hard charging through the back straight-away. We're snorkel and snorkle as we head into the final turn! > In fact, after trying to explain the theory to students, I often offer them > the chance to try to out-fin me underwater. Only a couple of Royal Marines > have achieved it so far.... That statement is always funny. My AOW instructor believed it, too. That is, until he challenged me after the class to a few laps. Over 100 yards, I think I beat him by around 6 seconds. In a pair of Cressi Frogs, no less. And I'm not exactly in the same shape as a Royal Marine. Jon > And I'm not exactly in the same shape as a Royal Marine. And your not a pussy like them either.... AirHog "Plain and simple--split fins are gimmicks" Hogwash. Coming off knee surgery, my Mares fins were too much work for my healing parts to push and a friend let me borrow his TwinJets. Effortless and easy, with gobs of propulsion if I need it. The notion that fins work different in current is kind of ridiculous...your speed through the water doesn't change...your speed over the ground does. A fin that moves you well in calm water does the same in current. Try this: do a dive with a buddy who has split fins. Swap fins during the dive, then swap back. Make up your own mind. SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > >I am going to buy a pair of "apollo bio pro" split fins > > but this morning one of my friend told me that split fins could not be [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > AirHog > Hogwash. Coming off knee surgery, my Mares fins were too much work for my > healing parts to push and a friend let me borrow his TwinJets. Effortless > and easy, with gobs of propulsion if I need it. Points: You are wrong. You can not effectively frog kick in them. You cannot effectively helicopter in them. You cannot effectively or at all for that mattter fin backwards in them. You cannot fight currents. If you ever go to twins--you will not have the fin you need to push 104s let alone 95's > The notion that fins work different in current is kind of ridiculous.. Bullshit. And if you do not know why I'll be damned if I have the time or inclination to write a two hundred word essay on why that si ridiciulous >.your > speed through the water doesn't change...your speed over the ground does. A > fin that moves you well in calm water does the same in current. Simply put at the expense of more gas consumption. > Try this: do a dive with a buddy who has split fins. Swap fins during the > dive, then swap back. Make up your own mind. Try this--use rule number one and never dive with a buddy with split fins. AirHog Signature"Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him." > > Hogwash. Coming off knee surgery, my Mares fins were too much work for my > > healing parts to push and a friend let me borrow his TwinJets. Effortless [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > AirHog Go back to rec.scuba. Please folks, don't feed the troll.... > Go back to rec.scuba. > > Please folks, don't feed the troll.... Learn to clip--I can assure I am no troll--I answered the troll.... If you dumb sonofabitches would not copy every known group to man you would not have me spanking your a.ses across the seas. AirHog Signature"Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him." > > Go back to rec.scuba. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > AirHog Clipping is optional. sonofabitches What is this word? Is it a nother made-up American phrase, or did the library bus not stop at your trailer park? Goodbye ! >> > Try this: do a dive with a buddy who has split fins. Swap fins during >the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Please folks, don't feed the troll.... He is in rec.scuba. If you want to get mad at anyone, get mad at the orignal idiot who cross-posted this in the first place. Don't cross-post to rec.scuba if you don't want rec.scuba "style" answers. > Go back to rec.scuba. Read the header and I think you'll find we never left rec.scuba. Better to look before you leap. You'll be lucky if the entire rec.scuba contingent doesn't drop in to respond to your Truth vs American comment. Since I'm a regular on both groups, I think I'll drop out of this one now. It's going to get messy. Lee Very messy. it may be strange to see "WhingeingPom" and "DamnYankee" comments rather than "Liberal" and "Caonservative" but I can guess how it's gonna end up. rhys <= Neither a Englishman nor an American, so lemme alone! > > Go back to rec.scuba. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Lee > Go back to rec.scuba. > > Please folks, don't feed the troll.... We've never left rec.scuba - if you're to damn stupid to read the headers of a post before you respond then it your fault. >You are wrong. Thanks for your opinion. >You can not effectively frog kick in them. Evidently, YOU can't. It's a different technique, but they frog kick just fine. >You cannot effectively helicopter in them. See above. >You cannot effectively or at all for that mattter fin backwards in them. See above again. >You cannot fight currents. Let's see if I can make this simple for you. Current is water moving over the bottom. If you are kicking comfortably at 3 knots through the water, this remains unchanged. If the current you're swimming in is 2 knots, then your speed over the bottom is 1 knot. If the current is 1 knot, your speed is 2 knots. Nothing is "better in a current", since it's still just pushing you through water at the same speed...whether the water is moving or not is irrelevant. >Simply put at the expense of more gas consumption. If my speed is unchanged, my consumption is unchanged. By the way, my consumption is significantly better with split fins than blades. Less effort = less need for air. > Try this--use rule number one and never dive with a buddy with split fins. Riiiiight. I sure do love usenet. Briggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Airhog Newsgroups: rec.scuba,rec.scuba.equipment,rec.scuba.locations,uk.rec.scuba Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 8:23 AM Subject: Re: Question: Split-fin in strong current > Hogwash. Coming off knee surgery, my Mares fins were too much work for my > healing parts to push and a friend let me borrow his TwinJets. Effortless > and easy, with gobs of propulsion if I need it. Points: You are wrong. You can not effectively frog kick in them. You cannot effectively helicopter in them. You cannot effectively or at all for that mattter fin backwards in them. You cannot fight currents. If you ever go to twins--you will not have the fin you need to push 104s let alone 95's > The notion that fins work different in current is kind of ridiculous.. Bullshit. And if you do not know why I'll be damned if I have the time or inclination to write a two hundred word essay on why that si ridiciulous >.your > speed through the water doesn't change...your speed over the ground does. A > fin that moves you well in calm water does the same in current. Simply put at the expense of more gas consumption. > Try this: do a dive with a buddy who has split fins. Swap fins during the > dive, then swap back. Make up your own mind. Try this--use rule number one and never dive with a buddy with split fins. AirHog -- "Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him." SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > Hogwash. Coming off knee surgery, my Mares fins were too much work for my > > healing parts to push and a friend let me borrow his TwinJets. Effortless [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > AirHog "Airhog" <mick@youwishyouknew.net> entertained us with: :You can not effectively frog kick in them. :You cannot effectively helicopter in them. :You cannot effectively or at all for that mattter fin backwards in them. I can't do any of that stuff in any type of fin. Nor do I want to. Dan Bracuk As Big Ben said to the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I've got the time if you've got the inclination. The Best of Rec.Scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > "Airhog" <mick@youwishyouknew.net> entertained us with: > :You can not effectively frog kick in them. > :You cannot effectively helicopter in them. > :You cannot effectively or at all for that mattter fin backwards in them. > > I can't do any of that stuff in any type of fin. Nor do I want to. Then stick to your 40 feet reef dives and worry about taking pictures and the reef gators.... AirHog > www.oahudivecenter.com I replied before I saw you were a dive retailer... I should have known. You are out raping people which is why you are pimping your POS fins. I should known only dive shop monkeys try to convince others that split fins work so you can bend them over a barrel and shove the big retail dick in thier a.s. AirHog --- Put local dive shops out of business--buy online..... >You are out raping people which is why you are pimping your POS fins. >I should known only dive shop monkeys try to convince others that split fins >work so you can bend them over a barrel and shove the big retail dick in >thier a.s. I forgot...you think anyone who owns a business is a criminal. Thanks for your opinion. Sheesh SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > www.oahudivecenter.com > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > --- > Put local dive shops out of business--buy online..... > I forgot...you think anyone who owns a business is a criminal. Then I have been a criminal. Anyone who owns a dive retail operation is a criminal. AirHog > > I forgot...you think anyone who owns a business is a criminal. > > Then I have been a criminal. > > Anyone who owns a dive retail operation is a criminal. I disagree; although, I will admit that I have a rather amazing local dive shop. > AirHog > I disagree; although, I will admit that I have a rather amazing local dive > shop. There is a difference in getting sexual favors from a dive shop owner as opposed to getting rammed in the a.s over a barrel.... AirHog Signature"Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him." > "Plain and simple--split fins are gimmicks" > > Hogwash. Coming off knee surgery, my Mares fins were too much work for my > healing parts to push and a friend let me borrow his TwinJets. Effortless > and easy, with gobs of propulsion if I need it. I bet you a beer you sell them. I'll bet another beer you get a healthy markup. > The notion that fins work different in current is kind of ridiculous...your > speed through the water doesn't change...your speed over the ground does. A > fin that moves you well in calm water does the same in current. Read what you said and reconsider how to say it. What you have said makes you look just a tad ignorant. Lee >I bet you a beer you sell them. I'll bet another beer you get a healthy >markup. Then I'd only owe you one beer. >> The notion that fins work different in current is kind of ridiculous...your >> speed through the water doesn't change...your speed over the ground does.A >> fin that moves you well in calm water does the same in current. >Read what you said and reconsider how to say it. What you have said makes >you look just a tad ignorant. I think I said what I meant...or meant what I said. Given a constant kicking speed, my speed through the water doesn't change. Add current, my speed through the water still doesn't change. My speed over the bottom does. SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > "Plain and simple--split fins are gimmicks" > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Lee > >I bet you a beer you sell them. I'll bet another beer you get a healthy > >markup. > > Then I'd only owe you one beer. Next time you're in S. Florida, let me know and I'll arrange for you to pay your debt. Otherwise, you can owe me forever, or until a bet goes the other way. What's the markup? To be sure it isn't two beers, enquiring minds want to know. > >> The notion that fins work different in current is kind of > ridiculous...your [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Read what you said and reconsider how to say it. What you have said makes > >you look just a tad ignorant. > I think I said what I meant...or meant what I said. Given a constant kicking > speed, my speed through the water doesn't change. Add current, my speed > through the water still doesn't change. My speed over the bottom does. A diver in no current, needs little thrust or speed. A diver in a strong current does not simply want thrust and speed, he needs them. Your example of a three knot finner in a 2 knot current was cute, but how about the two knot finner in a 3 knot current or, better yet, the diver that needs to move from shelter to shelter to make headway towards an ascent line, a situation where only acceleration will allow them to succeed. One of the keys to fins has always been whether the diver can kick through the capacity of the fin. That's relatively easy to do with a split fin, relatively harder with some of the modern water channel paddle fins. Lee >What's the markup? To be sure it isn't two beers, enquiring minds want to >know. As with all things, it depends on your volume. Popular items, like split fins, tend to be less profitable. Contrary to popular belief, dive retail stores don't make huge profits on selling gear. If, at the end of the day, you clear 10% on any SCUBA stuff, you've done pretty well. > One of the keys to fins has always been whether the diver can kick through > the capacity of the fin. That's relatively easy to do with a split fin, > relatively harder with some of the modern water channel paddle fins. Interesting notion...I haven't had a problem with overshooting the fins' ability to push me, but look forward to testing that. Oh no...did we actually have a discussion, disagree, and find something to do to find common ground? On usenet? Call the press. :-) Thanks for giving me something new to think about! SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > > >I bet you a beer you sell them. I'll bet another beer you get a healthy [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Lee > >What's the markup? To be sure it isn't two beers, enquiring minds want to > >know. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stores don't make huge profits on selling gear. If, at the end of the day, > you clear 10% on any SCUBA stuff, you've done pretty well. Not around here they don't. 50% is not an unheard of markup. As a matter of fact, my LDS gives a 10% markup on everything he sells me (I know because I've seen his invoices) and he undercuts the competition at these prices (sometimes by as much as half). It might be that he gives my wife and I a special deal because of all of the business we give him, but I find that hard to believe since we haven't spent that much in the store (max of $1,900 between the two of us). The owner is a realtor by trade and only runs the scuba shop (out of his realty business) as a way to pay for trips and hobbies. >50% is not an unheard of markup. Strictly on the product, you mean. When you start chipping away at that to keep the doors open, the lights on, and the operation insured, the number shrinks in a hurry. >The owner is a realtor by trade and only runs the >scuba shop (out of his realty business) as a way to pay for trips and >hobbies. Bingo. Things would be very different if it was his livelihood. SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > > >What's the markup? To be sure it isn't two beers, enquiring minds want [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > scuba shop (out of his realty business) as a way to pay for trips and > hobbies. > >50% is not an unheard of markup. > > Strictly on the product, you mean. When you start chipping away at that to > keep the doors open, the lights on, and the operation insured, the number > shrinks in a hurry. Markup is markup. Markup and Profit are 2 completely different things. > >The owner is a realtor by trade and only runs the > >scuba shop (out of his realty business) as a way to pay for trips and > >hobbies. > > Bingo. Things would be very different if it was his livelihood. I have absolutely no doubt about that. I think it might be an interesting structure for LDS owners to look at though. Have a business and run the LDS on the side. I'm not saying it would work for everyone, but I buy almost everything from him and he is even competitive with leisurepro. Plus, if I am ever in the market for real estate in this area, I already have a relationship with a realtor. <snip> C Guynn >I think it might be an interesting >structure for LDS owners to look at though. Have a business and run the LDS >on the side. It depends on what your shop is for. Virtually every recreational sport has the "garage" dealer who is an enthusiast (often one of the more experienced guys in the area) and has a dealership to get himself and his friends affordable gear. In diving, that cuts you out with a lot of suppliers, as you're required to have a storefront. And, if you want to teach, there are even more requirements. To each his own and may we all be successful and keep our customers happy! SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > > >50% is not an unheard of markup. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > C Guynn > >I think it might be an interesting > >structure for LDS owners to look at though. Have a business and run the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you're required to have a storefront. And, if you want to teach, there are > even more requirements. Interestingly enough, he actually does have a storefront. It's attached to the building his Realty business is in (it's actually separate from the realty business, but it's all in teh same building much like separate offices in an office building). He also teaches (SSI) classes and that's how I met him. He teaches the classes through the local community college and certifies at what would be considered the "local quarry". I'm not saying that every dive shop owner should run their business this way or that any shop owner who doesn't is bad or crooked, just that it's an interesting model. <snip> > I'm not saying that every dive shop owner should run their business this way > or that any shop owner who doesn't is bad or crooked, just that it's an > interesting model. I am. AirHog "Oahu Dive Center" <res1iryt@verizon.net> wrote in message news:Mvzlb.27447 > >50% is not an unheard of markup. > > Strictly on the product, you mean. When you start chipping away at that to > keep the doors open, the lights on, and the operation insured, the number > shrinks in a hurry. Now you are talking about overhead. This is very different than your comment of : "As with all things, it depends on your volume. Popular items, like split fins, tend to be less profitable. Contrary to popular belief, dive retail stores don't make huge profits on selling gear." Maybe out of your 50% markup profit you clear 10% after all the bills are paid -- but off the top you are making a decent profit on it. So I am curious then -- if gear sales aren't paying your bills -- just what is? a.s raping the students for unnecessary specialty classes? Kimber > So I am curious then -- if gear sales aren't paying your bills -- just what > is? a.s raping the students for unnecessary specialty classes? You got it babe..... Bending them over the barrel of split fins and shoving large cocks in their a.ses. AirHog > > So I am curious then -- if gear sales aren't paying your bills -- just > what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > AirHog What do you say when you meet a female (ie. cockless) retailer you don't agree with? replace "cock" with "strap-on"? rhys > What do you say when you meet a female (ie. cockless) retailer you don't > agree with? replace "cock" with "strap-on"? $d00d-- Any chick worth her salt comes with her own tools..... AirHog > > > So I am curious then -- if gear sales aren't paying your bills -- just > > what [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > rhys Woohoo! Good job bottom posting. See Hog? They learn sometimes ;) Jon > Woohoo! Good job bottom posting. See Hog? They learn sometimes ;) > > Jon You got that right stud muffin. You just have to keep beating them about the head and neck... AirHog Signature"Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him." puts on helmet and ignores beating. > > Woohoo! Good job bottom posting. See Hog? They learn sometimes ;) > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell > followed with him." Wish I was out diving today, to bloody hot to swing a chainsaw around gorse bushes now. rhys >Now you are talking about overhead. This is very different than your >comment of : >"As with all things, it depends on your volume. Popular items, like split >fins, tend to be less profitable. Contrary to popular belief, dive retail >stores don't make huge profits on selling gear." In this case, "less profitable" means "less markup". Popularity drives the price down, but the manufacturer doesn't budge on price. > So I am curious then -- if gear sales aren't paying your bills -- just what > is? a.s raping the students for unnecessary specialty classes?-- Go back to playing with Airhog until you can manage to be civil. If you want to have a conversation, fine. If you're just typing to read your own words, I'm not inclined to give many answers. Briggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > "Oahu Dive Center" <res1iryt@verizon.net> wrote in message news:Mvzlb.27447 > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Kimber > Go back to playing with Airhog until you can manage to be civil. If you want > to have a conversation, fine. If you're just typing to read your own words, > I'm not inclined to give many answers. You have proven you do not have the answers. You are nothing but another spammer...yawn. AirHog >You have proven you do not have the answers. Read it again. Kimber was kind enough to answer the question for me in the next sentence, thus my response. SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > Go back to playing with Airhog until you can manage to be civil. If you > want [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > AirHog > >You have proven you do not have the answers. > > Read it again. Kimber was kind enough to answer the question for me in the > next sentence, thus my response. Ok -- you are are saying that selling students classes they don't need is where you make the big bucks huh? Kimber >Ok -- you are are saying that selling students classes they don't need is >where you make the big bucks huh? Here's a news flash for you...classes aren't big money-makers. By the time you pay the Instructor and a boat captain and PADI (or whatever organization overcharges for their books), there isn't much left. There are no "big bucks" in diving...you don't see a lot of folks who make their living in the dive industry driving Hummers. The things that have the best impacton the bottom line? Charters (if they're full) and inexpensive retail items, where volume makes the world go 'round. SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > > >You have proven you do not have the answers. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Kimber > >Ok -- you are are saying that selling students classes they don't need is > >where you make the big bucks huh? > > Here's a news flash for you...classes aren't big money-makers. By the time > you pay the Instructor and a boat captain and PADI (or whatever organization > overcharges for their books), there isn't much left. Well you said you weren't making money on retail (where you claim you only make a 10% markup though we all know that is bullshit) ... so what is left but classes.... > The things that have the best impacton the bottom line? Charters (if they're > full) and inexpensive retail items, where volume makes the world go 'round. Ooh yeah - selling overpriced charters. You going to start spamming them here like others do? You spam your dive center every post with your sig. Kimber >You spam your dive center every post with your sig. Nope...I identity myself and my business. Posting a gazillion messages to all the newsgroups at the same time would be spamming. SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > > >Ok -- you are are saying that selling students classes they don't need is [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Kimber "Oahu Dive Center" <res1iryt@verizon.net> wrote in message news:5%Clb.28015 > > So I am curious then -- if gear sales aren't paying your bills -- just > what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to have a conversation, fine. If you're just typing to read your own words, > I'm not inclined to give many answers. I do play with AirHog -- regularly -- and will continue to do so until one of us is no longer living. So again, answer the question... gear sales aren't payig your bills... what is? Shops always seem to be whining that they aren't making any money on the classes -- it is the retail operation that pays the bills -- you are discounting this? Kimber > I do play with AirHog -- regularly -- and will continue to do so until one > of us is no longer living. Baby--if I get to you and still at least the little bit warm...I'll get ya one last time.... > So again, answer the question... gear sales aren't payig your bills... > what is? Shops always seem to be whining that they aren't making any money > on the classes -- it is the retail operation that pays the bills -- you are > discounting this? Pimping bullshit equipment, selling bullshit agency standards and a.s f.cking for dive trips I am sure.... AirHog Signature"Behold the pale horse and the man who sat on him was death and hell followed with him." "bullshit agency standards" That exist solely for one reason...to keep the sport from being buried by lawyers and insurance companies. SignatureBriggs Christie Oahu Dive Center Kailua, Hawaii 1-866-933-DIVE www.oahudivecenter.com > > I do play with AirHog -- regularly -- and will continue to do so until one > > of us is no longer living. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > AirHog > Baby--if I get to you and still at least the > little bit warm...I'll get ya one last time.... Didn't quite work out the way you planned, did it Hog? <sick-grin> "Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM.houston.rr.com> wrote in message news:zrKnb.5072 > > Baby--if I get to you and still at least the > > little bit warm...I'll get ya one last time.... > > Didn't quite work out the way you planned, did it Hog? <sick-grin> f.cker. Not you Gru -- Hog. Thanks for sharing -- these make me smile. Kimber > Thanks for sharing -- these make me smile. Well, truthfully, I was just a wee bit behind on my newsgroup reading... I had over 750 messages that I had not read, just in rec.scuba... Finally caught up last night and noticed a few from Hog that seems rather prophetic from a sick humor point of view... Little did he know that we would be able to use his last words against him... <sick-grin> "Grumman-581" <grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM@houston.rr.com> wrote in message > > Thanks for sharing -- these make me smile. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > from a sick humor point of view... Little did he know that we would be able > to use his last words against him... <sick-grin> Well thank you for not being afraid to upset me by replying to them. I know people aren't quite sure how to act. The more people act completely normal, the easier it is for me. I want to laugh and cut up. I don't want people to be on eggshells. I want to remember all the good, fun, happy stuff. And continue on. Kimber > >What's the markup? To be sure it isn't two beers, enquiring minds want to > >know. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stores don't make huge profits on selling gear. If, at the end of the day, > you clear 10% on any SCUBA stuff, you've done pretty well. Yeah, right. All those shops paid for all those boats by not making any money. With only a 10% markup, I find it strange that pretty much every shop I know of manages to give their regular customers at least that much of a discount and still make money. Go figure. Hey Scott, how much did you tell me the cost was on those plates Halcyon sells for a few hundred bucks? > > One of the keys to fins has always been whether the diver can kick through > > the capacity of the fin. That's relatively easy to do with a split fin, > > relatively harder with some of the modern water channel paddle fins. > > Interesting notion...I haven't had a problem with overshooting the fins' > ability to push me, but look forward to testing that. Try it while paying attention and you'll understand better. It's no so much overshooting the fin's ability to push, but rather over doing it's designed point of maximum efficiency. Fins designed with more flex tend to be easier on the legs of their owners but be easier to bend beyond their point of maximum efficiency. Some can be bent so far that they become almost useless. The same tends to be true of fins that have to be flexible to work, like the split fins. Up to their design capacity, the split fins are reportedly faster than the more traditional channel fins and both tend to be more efficient than the even older paddle fins. Beyond that, however, their usefulness tends to drop off quickly, which is probably why so many people speak of problems in heavy current and/or when trying to fin over the side of a RIB. Lee > Try this: do a dive with a buddy who has split fins. Swap fins during the > dive, then swap back. Make up your own mind. For kicks, put a split on one foot and a paddle on the other - see which way you start circling :-) >"Plain and simple--split fins are gimmicks" > >Hogwash. Coming off knee surgery, my Mares fins were too much work for my >healing parts to push and a friend let me borrow his TwinJets. Effortless >and easy, with gobs of propulsion if I need it. .. "Too much work"? The actual "work" of moving through the water is identical regardless of what type of fin you use. What varies is the way you input energy to do the work. Split fins and Force Fins can make kicking seem easier, which could be better for you knee. However, based on my experience and the very limted data available, I believe that large, fairly stiff fins are the most efficient. If they make you work too hard, just slow down your kicking. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. Test the fins yourself. We did. At the surface in snorkle gear, lock arms facing each other and try to move the other person. We did this and despite the person - the fins that ruled - in order of force were: Apollo Pro Split fins Mares Volo fins Tusa Imprex This was not a scientific test and it did not test a wide variety of fins but it did compare Split fins to Hinge fins and Paddle Fins. I was forced to change my opinion of the split fins after this test. I am still reluctant to recommend them but I DO have a pair of ScubaPro Split fins ordered to use for myself for a while. As opposed as I was and as opinionated as I was against the split fin - after actually doing a comparison test with them - I had to change my mind. > Test the fins yourself. We did. At the surface in snorkle gear, lock > arms facing each other and try to move the other person. We did this [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > - after actually doing a comparison test with them - I had to change > my mind. Here is another test, put a split fin on one foot and another type on the other foot, then switch them left to right to account for difference in foot strength. Make your own conclusions. I love my Apollo Pro-Bio fins. The original black ones. I have close to 300 dives on them. > > Test the fins yourself. We did. At the surface in snorkle gear, lock > |
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