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Scuba Forum / General / May 2004What are leading causes of death of recreational divers?
What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression disease, overhead environment can be letha, and so on. My guess is trapped in a overhead environment (cave or wreck) and running out of air. Are there statistics on this topic? > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? It is probably heartattack. > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? > My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are there statistics on this topic? go to diversalertnetwork.org Dennis > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? > My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression > disease, overhead environment can be letha, and so on. Same as everybody else, auto accidents, heart attacks, cancer . . . > My guess is trapped in a overhead environment (cave or wreck) and > running out of air. I'm reasonably certain that you are incorrect. By far, the majority of the deaths we hear about, and we hear about most of them, appear to come from basic mistakes made by divers in open water. Lee >> What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? >> My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Lee Looking at the cause of the fatal accidents we've had here the last couple of years I would say: OOA/panic & lung barotrauma (and 2 cases of hypothermia, but those I would attribute to sheer stupidity: you don't go diving when there's a 11 beaufort wind).  SignatureMichael Wolf ------------ Cthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser evil? remove stopspam to reply > > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? > > My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression > > disease, overhead environment can be letha, and so on. > > Same as everybody else, auto accidents, heart attacks, cancer . . . The leading CAUSES would be the stoppage of blood circulation and brain waves, which Lee overlooked. Meant to be cute, as Lee always thinks he is, for which Lee attracted many disciples in his Church of the Gullible. But clearly NOT true, for DIVERS, especially divers who reads rec.scuba.* and thinks that Lee Bell knows something about diving and blindly swallows the crap (DANGEROUSLY faulty advice) Lee dispenses everywhere, but gets his butt soundly kicked ONLY in scuba forums predominantly participated by serious SCUBA divers and experts. :-) DJ Kim, what you ask is a question whose answers depend very much on conditional probabilities that are nearly impossible to answer informatively without knowing the CONDITIONS to which a particular diver is subject. Your probability of survival is GREATLY enhanced, if you ignore ALL scuba advice Lee spews forth in this and other scuba forums. > I'm reasonably certain that you are incorrect. Doesn't matter what the question is, whenever Lee Bells says that, BEWARE! When Lee is "certain" you're incorrect, BEWARE even more!! > By far, the majority of the deaths we hear about, That already evaded the statistical issue of FACT. It's bad enough to depend on hearsay, it far worst to depend on the "we" which Lee referred. > and we hear about most of them, Lee's patented BULLSHIT! > appear to come from basic mistakes made by divers in open water. A worthless statement in the CONDITIONAL probability sense, since OPEN water is where the vast majority of divers dive == obviously the mistakes made by divers in open water is more often than made by divers in OTHER (less frequently dived) environments. > Lee I am sure I'll hear from the Lee Bell's disciples in his stronghold of the Church of the Gullible (read rec.scuba.*) about this post :-))) And Lee will pop his head out, saying I am the only one in his "blocked sender's list" to add fuel in the flames without having read what I posted. :-))))))))))))))))) It's all deja vu. Soooooooo ... instead of responding to the expected NOISE, I'll post a Rec.scuba CELEBRITY Trivia Quiz with a REWARD (of two-tanks of boat dive in a dive shop in Cozumel of the winner's choice) for the WINNER who can identify a number of quotes posted (within the past few days) about Lee, about Lee's "crap" and "dangerous" statements made on scuba related matters, by KNOWLEDGEABLE experts in the areas of expertise in which Lee IS seriously lacking and was deservedly criticized for his incessant Mouth Dancing and Obfuscation <tm> on those areas of Lee's ignorance. -- Bob. ( nothing of consequence) > -- Boob. you just get stranger and stranger. > ( nothing of consequence) > > > > -- Boob. > > you just get stranger and stranger. gee whiz james, now you too will become one of lee's idiot a.s kissing buddies, or whatever fishs mind drags up. >>( nothing of consequence) >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > one of lee's idiot a.s kissing buddies, > or whatever fishs mind drags up. well, we all have our crosses to bear. at the current rate of degredation of fish's sanity, it should be at least partly entertaining. > >>( nothing of consequence) > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > at the current rate of degredation of fish's sanity, it should be at > least partly entertaining. he really has lost it. sort of like someone who has no life left to provide a sane framework of reality for reference. > > > gee whiz james, > > > now you too will become > > > one of lee's idiot a.s kissing buddies, > > > or whatever fishs mind drags up. To the best of my knowledge, none of my buddies kisses anybody's a.s, figuratively or otherwise. > > at the current rate of degredation of fish's sanity, it should be at > > least partly entertaining. > > he really has lost it. > sort of like someone who has no life left > to provide a sane framework of reality for reference. Funny thing is, he's pretty much losing it all by himself. I don't even have to help. Lee > To the best of my knowledge, none of my buddies kisses anybody's a.s, > figuratively or otherwise. Does that mean I'm not yer buddy or that I don't have to kiss yer a.s any more? > > To the best of my knowledge, none of my buddies kisses anybody's a.s, > > figuratively or otherwise. > > Does that mean I'm not yer buddy or that I don't have to kiss yer a.s > any more? We haven't been buddies recently, but that should change soon. The water is beginning to warm up. Kiss my a.s any more than what? Lee > > > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? > > > My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > answer informatively without knowing the CONDITIONS to which > a particular diver is subject. Actually, it's not. The question asked was "what are leading causes of death of recreational divers?" The answer is simple statistics. How many recreational divers die and what are the main causes. The OP *probably* meant to ask something along the lines of what are the primary diving factors that cause recreational divers to die, but we can't be sure of that. In that case, the answer is still a simple case of statistics; although, the stats required may not be available. > Your probability of survival is GREATLY enhanced, if you ignore > ALL scuba advice Lee spews forth in this and other scuba forums. My experience, albeit limited, has shown this to not be the case. > > I'm reasonably certain that you are incorrect. > > Doesn't matter what the question is, whenever Lee Bells says that, > BEWARE! When Lee is "certain" you're incorrect, BEWARE even more!! Chip on your shoulder? > > By far, the majority of the deaths we hear about, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Lee's patented BULLSHIT! Bullshit? doubtful... exaggeration... possible. > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? > My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are there statistics on this topic? Probably bowling. >What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? Diving beyond the limits of your training and experience. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? >My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Are there statistics on this topic? Divers Alert Network tracks statistics to some degree. Medically, the most common cause of death is drowning, followed by heart attack. DCS and baratrauma do cause deaths, but I believe their incidence is probably an order of magnitude less than drowning and heart attack. From a "root cause" standpoint, I think the most common cause of death is panic. Diving can be an easy, enjoyable activity, but when things start to go wrong the stress builds *extremely* quickly and panic causes people to take actions that lead to drowning, heart attack, barotrauma or DCS. Poor physical condition is another cause of heart attacks. While scuba diving isn't a particularily good form of exercise, it can still stress your heart much more than you might expect. Poor planning and diving in conditions beyond your ability are probably the third most common root cause of death. This would encompass your guess of diving in overhead environments and running out of air/gas. While these accidents make the news headlines, they are again probably an order of magnitude less common as simple panic and poor conditioning. Alan Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a combination of small mistakes results in a catastrophic ending. Problems under water usually have some root problem preceding the dive: poor planning, poorly maintained equipment, poor health or poor training. It's very rare to hear of a good diver, with good training and equipment, and good health diving with a buddy of the same caliber on a recreational (<120', no overhead, etc.)dive and having a catastrophic accident. Not unheard of, but rare. Bart F. >>What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? >>My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Alan > Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive > accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bart F. This is wishful thinking but untrue. There are many dive reports of experienced, healthy divers, well trained who drown diving. Adam >> Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive >> accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >This is wishful thinking but untrue. There are many dive reports of experienced, healthy >divers, well trained who drown diving. I would argue about the "well trained" part. If an OW or AOW diver goes into a cavern, silts it up, gets lost and runs out of air, was he a "well trained" diver. > >> Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive > >> accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > If an OW or AOW diver goes into a cavern, silts it up, gets lost and > runs out of air, was he a "well trained" diver. Did you miss this part? "on a recreational (<120', no overhead, etc.)dive" > >> Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive > >> accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > If an OW or AOW diver goes into a cavern, silts it up, gets lost and > runs out of air, was he a "well trained" diver. A typical example (from recent Rodale's) an experienced, well trained diver diving with double tanks to pick up artifacts. Plan was to descend to 15 ft and meet with buddy. He forgot to turn on his air supply jumped in and sank to bottom, tried to turn valve on bottom was unable, drowned and died. Adam >> >> Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive >> >> accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >forgot to turn on his air supply jumped in and sank to bottom, tried to turn valve on >bottom was unable, drowned and died. A diver using doubles who can't reach his valves. A diver diving as part of a buddy team who's buddy is nowhere to be found, because they didn't descend together (i.e., an unintentionally solo diver). A diver who doesn't check his gas before jumping in the water A diver who didn't do a pre-dive gear check with his buddy. Right. Well trained. Only by PADI standards. Alan Street <alan@nonono_irsi.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :A diver diving as part of a buddy team who's buddy is nowhere to be :found, because they didn't descend together (i.e., an unintentionally :solo diver). This is actually a fairly regular event. It's not what's taught, but it is certainly done a lot. Sometimes even by me. Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > >> >> Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive > >> >> accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Only by PADI standards. Au Contraire, PADI DOES tell divers to execute a predive safety check. To wit: PADI Open Water Diver Manual, pg 110 - 111 "B - BCD - Check Adjustment, OPERATION, low pressure inflator connection, and that tank is firm in the band. If appropriate for the entry technique, make sure it's PARTIALLY INFLATED. W - Weights - Check for proper weighting, and that the quick release system is clear for ditching. Weight belts should have a right hand release. R - Releases - Make sure you're familiar with your BUDDY'S releases and how they work. Check EACH OTHER to make sure they're secure. A - Air - Confirm that you BOTH have ample air for the dive, that your VALVES ARE OPEN, that regulators and alternate air sources work, and that you know where to find and HOW TO USE each other's alternate air sources. F - Final OK - Give EACH OTHER a final inspection looking out for out of place equipment, dangling gauges, missing gear, etc." And on page 111: "The buddy system only works when divers stay together. REMEMBER: IT'S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO STAY WITH YOUR BUDDY AND FOLLOW THE RULES, GUIDELINES AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR EACH OTHER'S DIVE SAFETY. No one can do it for you." Also, the PADI Open Water Instructor Manual specifies that the student perform the predive safety check at least 7 times during the confined water and open water dives. ( 3 times in confined water, 4 times in open water ). I saw the same article as you, and nowhere did it mention the agency that the diver was certified by. Please produce your evidence that the dead diver was a PADI certified diver. Randy Cain I learned this one as a mnemonic when I did my OW in Thailand (Koh Tao):- Bangkok Women Really Are Fun I've since passed it on to students - always gets a cheap laugh. Any others? Benedict. SignatureAdd the 'co' to reply > > >> >> Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive > > >> >> accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > Randy Cain > >> >> Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive > >> >> accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Only by PADI standards. The point is that even experienced, well trained people make mistakes. This diver may have been already too hypoxic by the time he reached bottom to open the valve. I recall a Soviet cosmonaut forgetfully lit a flame in an oxygen rich environment and exploded alcohol vapor (no he was not drinking vodka); and few recreational divers are as well trained as astronauts. Adam "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: :I recall a Soviet cosmonaut forgetfully lit a flame in an oxygen rich environment and :exploded alcohol vapor (no he was not drinking vodka); and few recreational divers are as :well trained as astronauts. But most astronauts are trained divers are they not? Dan Bracuk If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure. The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/ > "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- I believe so, but not sure what point you're making. > I believe so, but not sure what point you're making. The Challenger explosion was PADI's fault? > On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:22:59 GMT, "Adam Helberg" > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Only by PADI standards. Even PADI trains better than that. > [...] > He > forgot to turn on his air supply jumped in and sank to bottom, tried to turn valve on > bottom was unable, drowned and died. > > Adam Drowned *and* died. Double whammy. > > [...] > > He [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Drowned *and* died. Double whammy. Triple whammy. For his heart also stopped. > >This is wishful thinking but untrue. There are many dive reports of experienced, healthy > >divers, well trained who drown diving. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If an OW or AOW diver goes into a cavern, silts it up, gets lost and > runs out of air, was he a "well trained" diver. He could be. No amount of training will replace judgment. Lee >>Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive >>accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Adam Note the caveat, "on a recreational dive". This was the original poster's condition. I agree that there are "experienced, healthy divers" that drown (or die for other reasons on dives) - but are they the preponderance of diver deaths on *recreational* dives? I'm skeptical. Bart F. > Adding to Alan's comments, I notice that a significant number of dive > accidents are not caused by one single factor. In many instances, a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > recreational (<120', no overhead, etc.)dive and having a catastrophic > accident. Not unheard of, but rare. I have been collecting data for years and have worked with the Ontario Underwater Council in years gone by on fatality reports (not currently helping them though). In North America there is a growing number of deaths that can be traced immediately back to the health/age of the diver. Heart Attacks. Strokes. Diabetic related black-outs, obesity and pre existing medical problems are knocking off an aging dive population far in advance of equipment failures and out-of-air situations. Recent report from Australia notes that obesity has been a factor in a number of recent diver deaths. > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? > My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are there statistics on this topic? The 2004 DAN report p 87 on dive fatalities (from 2002 I believe) lists drowning as the number one 47 of 89 fatalities, next is air embolism 16 and heart disease is 16 of 89. Trouble is any severe problem can end up as drowning so that becomes kind of a bucket diagnosis. Adam >What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? You must put things in their correct perspective. By being alive you risk dying. Therefore the largest single cause of divers deaths must be life. Thats my theory any way Free diving since 1957 First 30M + SCUBA dive june 1964 I am still alive and hence risking death Bob M >>What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? >You must put things in their correct perspective. >By being alive you risk dying. >Therefore the largest single cause of divers deaths must be life. >Thats my theory any way A sig I saw many years ago: Life is a sexual transmitted disease that enevitably ends in death >Free diving since 1957 >First 30M + SCUBA dive june 1964 >I am still alive and hence risking death > >Bob M Signaturedillon Life is always short, but only you can make it sweet "DJ Kim" <dj_google@daum.net> wrote What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? Note past episodes of "Sea Hunt", which- before there was Joe Strykowski's instruction manual- was how we all learned to dive. The leading cause for u/w mortality is obviously having the exhaust side hose of your double hose regulator cut by your buddy's dive knife. Proof: PADI Open Water Module 9, Question 5: Q: What is the main function of a sharp & pointed dive knife? a) prying open stuck pop tops b) smearing peanut butter and jelly c) losing it in the sand d) cutting the enemy's air hose Obviously it is "C", but this is a trick question. -- Robert "Doc" Adelman, C.I.D. "I'm hiding in Honduras, I'm a desperate man- Send lawyers, guns & money- the sh*t has hit the fan." -Warren Zevon >"DJ Kim" <dj_google@daum.net> wrote What are leading causes of death of >recreational divers? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Obviously it is "C", but this is a trick question. e) stabbing yourself in the leg while putting it away Signaturedillon Life is always short, but only you can make it sweet > >"DJ Kim" <dj_google@daum.net> wrote What are leading causes of death of > >recreational divers? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Obviously it is "C", but this is a trick question. > e) stabbing yourself in the leg while putting it away f) Compensation for size of one's manhood g) As a replacement toenail trimmer whilst abroad h) To wind up the security staff at Heathrow airport Benedict >What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? Stupidity, Darwin, and Swiss cheese. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'As I walk along these shores I am the history within' > Stupidity, Darwin, and Swiss cheese. Oh, I'm going to regret this... Swiss cheese? Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 >> Stupidity, Darwin, and Swiss cheese. > >Oh, I'm going to regret this... > >Swiss cheese? It's an expression from aircraft accident investigation. Planes crash when a series of human and/or technical errors (each of which may, on their own, be trivial) line up 'like the holes in Swiss cheese': plane flies 'through the holes' and hits the ground. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'As I walk along these shores I am the history within' > >> Stupidity, Darwin, and Swiss cheese. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > their own, be trivial) line up 'like the holes in Swiss cheese': plane > flies 'through the holes' and hits the ground. Planes fly through cheese? Listen, the next time a plane flys through cheese, give me a call. I can clear the problem right up for you. Signature"We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001 > Planes fly through cheese? > > Listen, the next time a plane flys through cheese, give me a call. > > I can clear the problem right up for you. The moon is supposedly made of green cheese and we landed men there, though I don't believe we actually flew through it. Stupidity would be the #1 underlying cause of diver death, when you examine the overall case and boil them all together. Just my opinion. :) Walter > What are leading causes of death of recreational divers? > My dive guidebooks do not tell, other than saying that decompression [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are there statistics on this topic? Lack of discipline and disrespect of basic rules. Diving is a serious sport and not a game >Stupidity would be the #1 underlying cause of diver death, when you examine >the overall case and boil them all together. Just my opinion. :) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> Are there statistics on this topic? >Stupidity would be the #1 underlying cause of diver death, when you examine >the overall case and boil them all together. Just my opinion. :) Quite possibly the second and third cause, also. >Walter > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Are there statistics on this topic? Signaturedillon When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark and the horse's name was Bob. >>Stupidity would be the #1 underlying cause of diver death, when you examine >>the overall case and boil them all together. Just my opinion. :) > > Quite possibly the second and third cause, also. Nope. Old age... |
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