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Scuba Forum / General / March 2004

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dive deep at beginning or the end of a trip?

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Stephen Weir & Associates - 26 Mar 2004 23:52 GMT
I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is shallow
(60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.  Nitrox not
available for any of the dives, so, it will all be with compressed air. What
is best, having my deep dives on the first or second day of diving, or
having them on the third or last day of diving?  There is a 22 hour gap
between the last dive and my flight out of there on a LIAT Dash 8.
Dan Bracuk - 27 Mar 2004 00:16 GMT
Stephen Weir & Associates <sweir5492@rogers.com> pounded away at his
keyboard resulting in:
:I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is shallow
:(60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.  Nitrox not
:available for any of the dives, so, it will all be with compressed air. What
:is best, having my deep dives on the first or second day of diving, or
:having them on the third or last day of diving?  There is a 22 hour gap
:between the last dive and my flight out of there on a LIAT Dash 8.

Conventional wisdom suggests that you get the deepest dives over with
as quickly as possible.

I am wondering though, how you know so much about what you are going
to do before the trip even starts, and how much control you have over
when you do the deep dives.  Is this all from shore or something?

Dan Bracuk
If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure.
The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
Stephen Weir & Associates - 27 Mar 2004 05:31 GMT
> Stephen Weir & Associates <sweir5492@rogers.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> to do before the trip even starts, and how much control you have over
> when you do the deep dives.  Is this all from shore or something?

I get to pick the sites and which day we dive them ... dependant on weather,
currents and viz of course.  All of the diving is from a boat.
Dan Bracuk - 27 Mar 2004 13:24 GMT
Stephen Weir & Associates <sweir5492@rogers.com> pounded away at his
keyboard resulting in:
:I get to pick the sites and which day we dive them ... dependant on weather,
:currents and viz of course.  All of the diving is from a boat.

How did you swing that?

Dan Bracuk
If at first you don't succeed, you run the risk of failure.
The Best of rec.scuba http://www.pathcom.com/~bracuk/RecScuba/
Stephen Weir & Associates - 28 Mar 2004 17:39 GMT
> Stephen Weir & Associates <sweir5492@rogers.com> pounded away at his
> keyboard resulting in:
> :I get to pick the sites and which day we dive them ... dependant on weather,
> :currents and viz of course.  All of the diving is from a boat.
>
> How did you swing that?
Dive in the off-season and bring your diving family with you. Four divers
have a lot of clout in late April and early May in the lower islands of the
Caribbean.  You can pretty well name your sites (although with only 4 on a
dive boat some captains won't go too far from shore because of fuel costs).
Robert Wood - 27 Mar 2004 01:09 GMT
> I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  

 Lucky bugger, Steve :-)

> Most of the diving is shallow
> (60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.  Nitrox not
> available for any of the dives, so, it will all be with compressed air. What
> is best, having my deep dives on the first or second day of diving, or
> having them on the third or last day of diving?  There is a 22 hour gap
> between the last dive and my flight out of there on a LIAT Dash 8.

 Do the deep dives each day, as the first dive.
 22 hours out of the water is fine.

[\]Robert Wood
The St. Lawrence River - fresh, warm, visible diving.
mailto:rgwood@magma.ca
http://www.magma.ca/~rgwood
Adam Helberg - 27 Mar 2004 04:32 GMT
> I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is shallow
> (60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.  Nitrox not
> available for any of the dives, so, it will all be with compressed air. What
> is best, having my deep dives on the first or second day of diving, or
> having them on the third or last day of diving?  There is a 22 hour gap
> between the last dive and my flight out of there on a LIAT Dash 8.

If it's me I would do some easy dives the first day and avoid doing the deep dives the
last day even with the 22 hr gap.

Adam
Steve - 27 Mar 2004 06:40 GMT
>>I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is shallow
>>(60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.  Nitrox not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> If it's me I would do some easy dives the first day and avoid doing the deep dives the
> last day even with the 22 hr gap.

There you go again, showing your ignorance. It isn't the depth, it's the profile.
Assuming the same amount of available gas, the deeper dives will be shorter dives,
and the faster tissues will be the ones controlling the NDL limits. Short, deep dives
will result in a shorter offgassing time than long shallow dives, depending on the
individual profiles. If the deep dives are to 120 feet, and aren't going to last more
than 20 minutes, those would be the ones to choose if the time before flying was
short enough to be a concern. If the time spent at depth will be short, and there
will be another 45 minutes from 60' back up to 30' then there's no reason to worry
which ones come first. With 22 hours before flying there's no reason to be overly
concerned, either.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Adam Helberg - 27 Mar 2004 08:12 GMT
> >>I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is shallow
> >>(60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.  Nitrox not
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> which ones come first. With 22 hours before flying there's no reason to be overly
> concerned, either.

Someone with an air-integrated simulator can answer this better, but let me take a simple
hypothetical dive and use dive tables.

Let's say the surface air consumption is 60minutes and make two dives one to 66 ft (3 atm)
and one to 6 atm or 165 ft (salt water).
Assuming no descent or ascent time for simplicity--all dive is at max depth.

The shallow dive allows 60/3= 20 minutes dive time.
the deep dive allows 60/6 = 10 minutes dive time.

Using tables 66ft for 20 minutes puts you in group E.
165 ft for 10 minutes results in a decompression dive and even after the deco stops puts
you in group F.

If I repeat this comparison (same model) with dive to 33 ft(2 atm) compared to dive to 99
ft (4 atm)
shallow dive is 33ft for 30 minutes =group D
deep dive is 99ft for 15 mins= group E

In both cases the deeper dive results in higher nitrogen loading for subsequent dives.
Albeit I did not take into account the descent and ascent time and someone with a
simulator can check to see if this is true.  But it's consistent with what I observe in
real dives on a single tank-- the deeper dives are more likely to result in higher
nitrogen bars on my computer than shalow dives.

Adam
Steve - 27 Mar 2004 20:29 GMT
Adam Helberg wrote:

> Using tables 66ft for 20 minutes puts you in group E.
> 165 ft for 10 minutes results in a decompression dive and even after the
> deco stops puts you in group F.

Remember the part where I said that it's the profile that matters? There's absolutely
no question that there are profiles where a shorter dive to a deeper depth results in
more tissue loading. Let's look at profiles that are similar to your's, but based on
the likely plan of a typical diver which is to call the dive either at NDL or low air.

SAC is .78 CF, which is rather generous for an easy dive, and coincidentally allows
100 surface minutes from an AL80. At 66 feet that's 33 minutes; a bit of reserved air
may lead to a 29 minute dive, and according to the the tables I have handy, that
makes them an F diver. The same diver going to 165 feet will be doing a no deco dive,
just as they did for the 66 foot dive. My tables only go to 130, where the NDL is 8
minutes, resulting in a D diver. At 160 the NDL would probably be 5 or 6 minutes, and
at most result in a D diver. A D diver has less residual N2 than an F diver, no? If
you look at the NDL's for various depths you'll notice a very clear patern, where a
diver reaching NDL will finish in a lower letter group as the dive gets deeper.
That's the simplified proof that short deep dives result in lower loading than long
shallow dives.

> Albeit I did not take into account the descent and ascent time

Yeah. Before you plan any real dives, I hope you'll notice that both of your divers
run OOA at depth.

> it's consistent with  what I observe in
> real dives on a single tank-- the deeper dives are more likely to result
> in higher nitrogen bars on my computer than shalow dives.

Those bars are tracking the hypothetical loading of the controlling compartment and
show how close you are to the NDL for only that compartment, not how much N2 you
really have or how long it will take to reduce the N2 load. Have you ever noticed
that the number of bars decreases in the later parts of the dive if you spend some
time at shallower depths after starting out deep? If not, do a dive to 120 and use
most of your NDL then ascend and do some sight seeing at 20 feet, and watch to see if
a bar disappears. If your computer continues to display those bars after the dive
until they're all gone, do a couple of comparison dives. If your consumption rate
allows it, spend most of a dive at 50 feet then slowly work your way up to 20 feet
and finish with as long as you can at 20 feet. Picking a site with something
interesting at 15 to 20 feet wil be a good idea. Do another dive where you spend most
of your NDL at 100 feet, then a routine safety stop at 15. With both dives see how
long it takes for all but the first bar to disappear after the dives. Or, as an
easier alternative, look at your tables and see how long it takes a diver who reached
NDL at different depths to drop to a B diver. Seeing how long it takes to become an A
diver probably won't work, since your tables probably use the same (somewhat
arbitrary) time for all starting groups, much like the 24 hours to fly rule that
doesn't differentiate between different profiles.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Adam Helberg - 27 Mar 2004 22:54 GMT
> Adam Helberg wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> arbitrary) time for all starting groups, much like the 24 hours to fly rule that
> doesn't differentiate between different profiles.

To try to settle this I did a search on Google for a dive simulator and finally found one.
It's the Suunto Dive Manager

http://www.suunto.com/pls/suunto/suunto2.pubproduct.prod_view?in_product_id=80&i
n_prodgrp_id=161&in_prodsubgrp_id=402


I chose the Cobra simulation to show the Air time and air consumption, because I assume
the dives are limited by the air in tank.

It has several dive profiles stored when you download it. I looked at the 102 ft dive to
Isle Royale National Park and took it as the deep dive. It shows the tissue graphs at the
end of dive.

Then I modified the profile by truncating the deep part. The diver stops at 50 ft and
holds there for a period of time and then resumes the same profile as above. Again I
looked at the tissue bar graphs at the end. To keep the amount of air at the end of dive
the same and keep the same SAC(surface air consumption) I had to insert some points at 50
ft--so the diver stays as long as possible at 50 ft to use the same amount of air as the
deep diver. It took a few tries to add the correct amount of wait time to yield the same
SAC and the same ending air pressure.

At the end I compared the two tissue N2 saturation bar graph profiles. Both have the same
shape with the middles bars being the tallest, but the deep dive graphs peaked at 110%
tissue saturation while the shallow dive peaked at 85% tissue saturation. In fact every
tissue compartment was higher in the deep dive than the shallow dive, even the slow
tissues.  This is the final proof that for a given amount of air the deep dive will result
in greater tissue saturation.

You could argue the profiles are not the same. In the shallow profile the diver stays at
50 ft and holds, but if he comes up he'll stay longer and shallower but then his tissue
loading will be even less. At the end of the dive it is the mid tissues that are
controlling. It's what I see in real dives. After a deep dive I have to have a longer
surface interval than after shallow but longer dives, to bring the displayed controlling
bar down.

You are right about the tables--if you have an infinite amount of air you can get to the
highest NDL group in shallow dives. For example at 35 feet if you stay for 5 hours you can
get to group O without going into deco, but at 130 ft you can only stay 10 minutes and get
to only group E before going into deco. This must have to do with the rapid tissues
quickly saturating in the deep dive but quickly gassing off, as you say. But in reality
the limiting factor is air time and in that case the deep dive results in higher group.

Adam
Steve - 28 Mar 2004 09:29 GMT
> To try to settle this

It was already settled. I said that short, deep dives, depending on the profiles, can
result in less N2 loading than long, shallow ones and I showed you profiles where
that's the case. QED.

> It has several dive profiles stored when you download it. I looked at the 102 ft dive to
> Isle Royale National Park and took it as the deep dive.

Cool. What's the profile?

> Then I modified the profile by truncating the deep part. The diver stops at 50 ft

Cool. What's the profile?

> This is the final proof that for a given amount of air the deep dive will result
> in greater tissue saturation.

Sounds like you're still forgetting that dives may end due to NDL instead of air.

> You could argue the profiles are not the same.

Of course they're not the same. For starters they're to different depths. Maybe we
need to backtrack and cover what a profile is?

> You are right about the tables--if you have an infinite amount of air you can get to the
> highest NDL group in shallow dives. For example at 35 feet if you stay for 5 hours you can
> get to group O without going into deco, but at 130 ft you can only stay 10 minutes and get
> to only group E before going into deco.

And if you have good air consumption you can do a 75 minute dive to 30 feet, which
makes you an E diver on my tables, while NDL ends the 130 foot dive at 8 minutes and
you surface as a D diver. If you want the shallow dive to be a bit deeper while
making the deep dive shallower, 50 minutes at 50 feet makes you a G diver, and NDL at
100 feet makes you an F diver. Two more examples where the short, deep dive results
in a lower loading than the long, shallow dive. QED^2.

> But in reality
> the limiting factor is air time and in that case the deep dive results in higher group.

No, in deco diving the limiting factor may be air, but in reality the limiting factor
is NDL. There are two reasons for that. First, that's how the vast majority of dives
are done. Second, if you do a deco dive it's no longer a *short* dive, and this
entire discussion is about *short*, deep dives versus long, shallow dives.

Signature

Steve

The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact.

If you want a reply to reach me, remove the SPAMTRAP from the address.

Adam Helberg - 27 Mar 2004 23:11 GMT
> Adam Helberg wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> arbitrary) time for all starting groups, much like the 24 hours to fly rule that
> doesn't differentiate between different profiles.

When you come up from a typical multilevel dive, Steve, and look at your computer's bar
graph you are looking at the mid tissues not the fastest tissues. You can see this in the
Suunto Dive Manager after a typical dive--it's the mid tissues that are controlling at the
end of a typical multilevel dive.
Lee Bell - 28 Mar 2004 10:26 GMT
> I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is
> shallow (60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> diving?  There is a 22 hour gap between the last dive and my flight
> out of there on a LIAT Dash 8.

I doubt it makes much difference one way or the other.  Conservative
profiles relative to nd limits and sensible surface intervals will make most
combinations of dives safe enough.  On the other hand, if I were concerned
with the best way to do a series of dives such as you suggest, I'd probably
schedule no more than one deep dive per day, done early in the day, followed
by one or more progressively shallower dives.  Doing the deep dive first, in
this case, means maximizing the nd time available.  Doing progressively
shallower dives turns each one into a sort of deco stop for the previous
ones.

Lee
chilly - 29 Mar 2004 10:57 GMT
> > I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is
> > shallow (60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> shallower dives turns each one into a sort of deco stop for the previous
> ones.

Does Steve dive with a computer?

> Lee
Stephen Weir & Associates - 30 Mar 2004 05:37 GMT
>>> I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is
>>> shallow (60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>> Lee

Yeah, I always with at least one computer. Usually dive Nitrox with an air
computer, but, recently have been testing a new Geko that you can switch
from air to nitrox.

I have an upcoming trip where I get to pick my dives.  All things being
equal I like to have one or two easy dives before I try anything difficult
(According to Dan B. Not only am I old, I look old). In the case of this
upcoming trip I want to look at an ocean liner that is down pretty deep. My
plan initially was to do it after a day or two of easy dives. Then I got
thinking that it might not be a wise idea to be making some difficult & deep
dives at the end of a trip. Hence my question. I looked over the answers,
sounds like it doesn't really matter which day I dive deep and hard as long
as I have sufficent time between the last dive and the plane leaving the
island. Anyway, thanks for you replies, I always look for your posts. sweir
toronto
Charlie Hammond - 29 Mar 2004 22:13 GMT
>I am heading off south for 4 days of diving.  Most of the diving is shallow
>(60ft average) but I will be making two or three 100+ dives.  Nitrox not
>available for any of the dives, so, it will all be with compressed air. What
>is best, having my deep dives on the first or second day of diving, or
>having them on the third or last day of diving?  There is a 22 hour gap
>between the last dive and my flight out of there on a LIAT Dash 8.

Stay within the no decompression-stop limits of your tables or computer,
wait 24hrs (22 vs 24 is not likely to matter) before flying, and enoy your
diving.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

Fiona Watson - 29 Mar 2004 23:36 GMT
The message <3k0ac.1941$bZ.1632@news.cpqcorp.net>
from hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) contains these words:

> Stay within the no decompression-stop limits of your tables or computer,
> w

Why?
Lee Bell - 30 Mar 2004 01:28 GMT
> The message <3k0ac.1941$bZ.1632@news.cpqcorp.net>
> from hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) contains these
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Why?

Perhaps because he needed to ask the question in the first place.

Lee

________________________________________
We're sure George W. Bush is not in bed with big oil.
If he were, we'd be paying $1.78 a gallon for regular.
Charlie Hammond - 30 Mar 2004 17:09 GMT
>The message <3k0ac.1941$bZ.1632@news.cpqcorp.net>
>from hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) contains these words:
>
>> Stay within the no decompression-stop limits of your tables or computer,
>
>Why?

The topic has to do with flying after several days of diving.
The advice to "wait 24 hours" is based somewhat on theory but mostly
on practical experience that tells us it is safe to ascend to a
pressure altitude of 8000 ft (typical airline cabin pressure) if
you have dived within no decompression-stop limits.

Because there is not much experience with flying after staged
decompression-stop diving, it is not known if the same "wait 24 hours"
is safe or not.  Theoretical opinions vary.

So, please understand that if your doing staged decompression-stop
diving my advice may not apply to you; you may have to wait longer.
Or you may not.  There is very little information, so waiting longer
woudl be the conservative/safe thing to do.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

Fiona Watson - 30 Mar 2004 23:28 GMT
The message <3Zgac.1990$LB1.216@news.cpqcorp.net>
from hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) contains these words:

> The topic has to do with flying after several days of diving.
> The advice to "wait 24 hours" is based somewhat on theory but mostly
> on practical experience that tells us it is safe to ascend to a
> pressure altitude of 8000 ft (typical airline cabin pressure) if
> you have dived within no decompression-stop limits.

I realise that, I just wondered why you specifically stated staying
within no-stop times, I was taught originally a straight 24hours
regardless.

> Because there is not much experience with flying after staged
> decompression-stop diving, it is not known if the same "wait 24 hours"
> is safe or not.  Theoretical opinions vary.

> So, please understand that if your doing staged decompression-stop
> diving my advice may not apply to you; you may have to wait longer.
> Or you may not.  There is very little information, so waiting longer
> woudl be the conservative/safe thing to do.

I think there is probably plenty of experienec of flying and
decompression diving in Europe, where mandatory stops are far more the
norm. It also depends on the gas you are using, I've got an 8 day dive
trip planned which finishes up around 5 or 6 on the last day and the
only flight I can catch is the 6:45am, which I've done before, however I
will be using He based gas, and none of the flights are very long or
high
Adam Helberg - 31 Mar 2004 00:25 GMT
> The message <3Zgac.1990$LB1.216@news.cpqcorp.net>
> from hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) contains these words:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> will be using He based gas, and none of the flights are very long or
> high

Here is a link to 2003 Flying After Diving recommendations:

http://www.nzunderwater.org.nz/Medical/me.flying.pdf

Adam
Adam Helberg - 31 Mar 2004 01:16 GMT
> The message <3Zgac.1990$LB1.216@news.cpqcorp.net>
> from hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) contains these words:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> will be using He based gas, and none of the flights are very long or
> high

With your trimix how does the risk of helium bubbles compare with risk of nitrogen
bubbles? How about the rate at which helium comes out of solution in blood?

If the limiting factor is nitrogen and not helium for DCS the recommendations should be
the same as deep air diving?

Adam
 
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