 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneousDiscussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK ScubaDirectoryScuba Clubs |
Scuba Forum / General / March 2004opinions on Suunto Vytec
I'm looking to upgrade from my old Oceanic Prodigy and want to hear opinions of the wireless Suunto Vytec. I need a conservative computer that is easy to read. Adam Adam, Please feel to contact me directly. Brian > I'm looking to upgrade from my old Oceanic Prodigy and want to hear opinions of the > wireless Suunto Vytec. I need a conservative computer that is easy to read. Hi there I have a Suunto Vytec with wireless preasure transmitter. I am very pleased with it, it is easy to use, you can use op to 3 different mixes of air. Yoy can change how conservative it should measure. If you are not going in to technical diving with trimix, and rebreather, i would suggest the vytec, if you do trimix and that go for the VR3.  SignatureBest regards S?ren Reinke www.bluehorizons.dk Scandinavias new diving and traveling online magazine -Remove 'ihsyd' from email when mailing directly > > I'm looking to upgrade from my old Oceanic Prodigy and want to hear > opinions of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If you are not going in to technical diving with trimix, and rebreather, i > would suggest the vytec, if you do trimix and that go for the VR3. Thanks Soren for the report. My vision is not great underwater. Any problem reading the numbers? Compared to Cobra. Any problem losing signal from transmitter? How do you manage your compass? Hello Adam > Thanks Soren for the report. My vision is not great underwater. Any problem reading the > numbers? Compared to Cobra. If i remember correctly they are quite equal to read from, actually i think they are the same size and that, just different firmware and wireless transmitter. > Any problem losing signal from transmitter? How do you manage your compass? I have lost the signal once, but you can request the computer to re negotiate with the transmitter on the 1. stage. But because i prefer to be save and not sorry, i also have a single manometer on my 1. stage just in case the transmission is lost all together. I use a wrist compass :-) SignatureBest regards S?ren Reinke www.bluehorizons.dk Scandinavias new diving and traveling online magazine -Remove 'ihsyd' from email when mailing directly > Hello Adam > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > But because i prefer to be save and not sorry, i also have a single > manometer on my 1. stage just in case the transmission is lost all together. Hmm. If you use a pressure gauge it has to be on a hose and that defeats the argument in favor of wireless that you have one less hose? >Hmm. If you use a pressure gauge it has to be on a hose and that defeats the argument in >favor of wireless that you have one less hose? Vytec is a gimmick computer for tech wannabes. It has no purpose whatsoever unless you're a fan of deep air. Nobody does extended range nitrox diving except as a stepping stone to trimix. It serves no purpose. You can do 2 dives instead of one with 1/10 the complexity. There is no reason to decompress in air depths except to train for trimix. Nobody even vaguely familiar with decompression diving would consider a hoseless AI to bet their life on, use it for decompression, or at the worst, do either without a reliable SPG. An SPG does not have to have a hose. Wireless is about putting AI computers on your wrist instead of your console. Anyone thinking that trading a tough as nails HP hose for fragile transmitters with unknowable battery life remaining, is a good trade, is mistaken. Of course they sell these things to people that put "user replaceable batteries" at the top of their requirements list, so it's probably effective marketing. If you see a Vytec on a rig sans SPG, you are looking at a NOOB. A wannabe NOOB trying to impress people with expensive techie crap. They haven't taken a single course beyond AOW (day after O/W). Chances are, there's a B/P and wing underneath (or Zeagle Ranger) and split fins on the end of it. Leave it on the shelf adam. I don't think it's your style. safe diving, bullshark > >Hmm. If you use a pressure gauge it has to be on a hose and that defeats the argument in > >favor of wireless that you have one less hose? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > bullshark Can you explain how an SPG can be without a hose? I appreciate your ideas to ponder. I am looking for a good conservative computer with easy to read numerals. The reason the wireless attracted me is if I travel and plan to only make a few dives I may rent my dive gear but would take my computer with me. Furthermore I like technology as long as it does not fail or make things unsafe. If it's on a console (as the Cobra is) it makes things more awkward. I would have to remove a plug from the first stage and screw in the Cobra hose, and I'm not sure rental outfit may allow it. Adam Adam Have you consider Dive Rite's big screen wrist computer? The characters are larger than the Nitek Plus. You may want to check it out on their web site. I agree with prior posts; it is safer to have an SPG then a wireless transmitter IMHO. Dive Safe, George >> Leave it on the shelf adam. I don't think it's your style. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >to read numerals. The reason the wireless attracted me is if I travel and plan to only >make a few dives I may rent my dive gear but would take my computer with me. If this is the case, a wireless transmitter is pretty much useless. Most places where you book trips and rent gear at the same time aren't all that keen on disconnecting their SPG/Console and installing your transmitter. Some will do it, but not all. And it would suck to be told you couldn't play with your new toy after spending all that money. I agree with much of what Bullshark says. With the wireless transmitter, the Vytec is an expensive, wannabe techy toy. Without it, I think it's a very decent nitrox computer that makes a good stepping stone into tri-mix, after which is functions as a very capable bottom timer. Furthermore I >like technology as long as it does not fail or make things unsafe. The most common failure of wireless transmitters is operator error - failing to replace the battery often enough. Battery life in a computer is typically measured in months to years. Battery life in a transmitter can be measured in hours. >If it's on a console (as the Cobra is) it makes things more awkward. I would have to >remove a plug from the first stage and screw in the Cobra hose, and I'm not sure rental >outfit may allow it. As I mentioned, you're going to have the same issue with a wireless transmitter. They screw into a HP port as well. >Adam > >Adam > >> Leave it on the shelf adam. I don't think it's your style. > >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > stone into tri-mix, after which is functions as a very capable bottom > timer. I can see the paradox of Vytec claiming to be a tech computer, but a tech diver would need a backup SPG gauge anyway. With the wireless computer I would not use it in air-integrated mode when traveling and renting, but a stand-alone wrist computer. It still works without the transmitter. The transmitter would stay on my regulator to use when not renting. Another option is to remove the plug on the other HP port and install the transmitter on rental regulator? #"Alan Street" <alan@nonono_irsi.com> wrote in message #news:3mbs40pq6kpu6tdv2ufg474v24m978sui3@4ax.com... #> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:03:11 GMT, "Adam Helberg" #> <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> wrote: #> #> #> >> #> >> Leave it on the shelf adam. I don't think it's your style. #> >> #> >> safe diving, #> >> #> >> bullshark #> > #> >Can you explain how an SPG can be without a hose? #> > #> >I appreciate your ideas to ponder. I am looking for a good conservative #> >computer with #easy #> >to read numerals. The reason the wireless attracted me is if I travel and #> >plan to only #> >make a few dives I may rent my dive gear but would take my computer with me. #> #> #> If this is the case, a wireless transmitter is pretty much useless. #> Most places where you book trips and rent gear at the same time aren't #> all that keen on disconnecting their SPG/Console and installing your #> transmitter. Some will do it, but not all. And it would suck to be #> told you couldn't play with your new toy after spending all that #> money. #> #> I agree with much of what Bullshark says. With the wireless #> transmitter, the Vytec is an expensive, wannabe techy toy. Without it, #> I think it's a very decent nitrox computer that makes a good stepping #> stone into tri-mix, after which is functions as a very capable bottom #> timer. #> #I can see the paradox of Vytec claiming to be a tech computer, but a tech #diver would need #a backup SPG gauge anyway. # Actually, any tech diver I know wouldn't be caught dead with an AI computer of any kind (CCR people excepted, but they wouldn't be using a Vytec either). #With the wireless computer I would not use it in air-integrated mode when #traveling and #renting, but a stand-alone wrist computer. It still works without the #transmitter. I'm well aware of that. What I'm suggesting is that if you like the "multi-gas" (actually N2/O2 multi-ratio) capabilities of the Vytec, consider buying it without the transmitter. It's substantially cheaper that way and it will carry you well into technical diving (as a bottom timer) if that's the way you want to go. The #transmitter would stay on my regulator to use when not renting. Another option #is to #remove the plug on the other HP port and install the transmitter on rental regulator? # # You might be able to do this. It depends on the outfit you're renting from and their willingness to do a little modification for a customer. It's really not a big deal, but some (many? a few? I don't know) places don't want to take a perceived liability risk of combining a customer's piece of equipment with their regulator. # > #"Alan Street" <alan@nonono_irsi.com> wrote in message > #news:3mbs40pq6kpu6tdv2ufg474v24m978sui3@4ax.com... [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > don't want to take a perceived liability risk of combining a customer's > piece of equipment with their regulator. I'm leaning now to go with the Vyper with wrist mount, and getting the Suunto modular console(SPG with compass) >Can you explain how an SPG can be without a hose? There is a "button" spg that screws directly into the HP port. I agree with your sentiments except on the issue of AI. I don't think it brings anything to the party, hoseless or not. A minor argument is a safety concern: Everyone know how to read an SPG. They may not know how or where to read an AI supply. This would only be an issue if you are incapacitated for some reason, or a strange buddy is just trying to keep an eye on your status. I believe the DC belongs on your wrist. That's where you need it to be, so that consultation for depth and time status is not awkward. Virtually all computers are conservative. The computer is not running your dive, you are. If you want conservatism, don't dive to NDL. No matter what line you want to buy, the most expensive model keeps you no safer than the cheapest in that line. safe diving, bullshark > >Can you explain how an SPG can be without a hose? > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > bullshark I have a button SPG on my pony bottle regulator, but it's not much use underwater on the main regulator. First it's hard to read and it requires another person to read it. > I appreciate your ideas to ponder. I am looking for a good conservative computer with easy > to read numerals. The reason the wireless attracted me is if I travel and plan to only [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Adam If you like the Cobra but don't want a console, consider the Suunto Vyper. It's the same computer only it's not air-integrated. I talked myself into purchasing a Cobra when I bought my regulator. After listening to a lot of advice on this web I realized it was risky to dive with a battery operated SPG as my only source, so I added yet-another high-pressure hose and a backup analog SPG. I could have saved a lot of money with the Vyper and an analog SPG to start with. The other thing is if you're going to be using a rental reg, it will for sure have an analog SPG attached it already. Consequently you would have a built-in backup for your Vytec. On a related note, I suspect you're going to have to remove a high-pressure plug on the reg anyway to connect the remote transmitter. Jerry > > I appreciate your ideas to ponder. I am looking for a good conservative computer with easy > > to read numerals. The reason the wireless attracted me is if I travel and plan to only [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Jerry It's hard to judge readibility on their web, but does the Vyper use the same size display and numerals as the Cobra? > It's hard to judge readibility on their web, but does the Vyper use the same size display > and numerals as the Cobra? > My buddy has a Vyper. From what I could tell his computer is identical to mine with the exception of the air-integration (and $200 cheaper). His is in a console along with an anlog SPG and at first glance it looks identical to the Cobra. Jerry > > It's hard to judge readibility on their web, but does the Vyper use the same size display > > and numerals as the Cobra? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jerry Thanks. This may be my option. Suunto makes a modular console that takes an SPG , compass, +- Vyper. The Vyper can go on wrist or console. Adam > If you like the Cobra but don't want a console, consider the Suunto > Vyper. It's the same computer only it's not air-integrated. I talked > myself into purchasing a Cobra when I bought my regulator. After > listening to a lot of advice on this web I realized it was risky to > dive with a battery operated SPG as my only source, Well, that's the *opinion* of several people on here. Several of those people inappropriately base their opinions on open water safety on the facts of technical diving requirements. The two types of diving are not the same. > so I added yet-another high-pressure hose and a backup analog SPG. > I could have saved a lot of money with the Vyper and an analog SPG > to start with. You still can. Wanna sell the Cobra? Make me an offer. I have no problem with a battery operated SPG. My dad used to dive without an SPG at all. The J-valve he splurged on was a bit of a luxury. If the computer fails, the dive is over. If you've been watching your gas levels through the dive, you know you're not out of gas and that you've got enough to get to the surface (and almost certainly solve one or two problems at depth). Things are different on a stages deco dive, where the lack of an SPG means that you no longer know if you have sufficient gas to complete your deco. Of course, your buddy should have enough for both of you and one SPG failing doesn't mean that all of your SPG's on all of your bottles have failed... I have a beautiful brass SPG in my save-a-dive kit so I can keep diving if the battery powered SPG gives out during the trip. But the failing battery powered SPG simply isn't a problem for my open-water diving. > The other thing is if you're going to be using a rental reg, it will > for sure have an analog SPG attached it already. Consequently you > would have a built-in backup for your Vytec. On a related note, I > suspect you're going to have to remove a high-pressure plug on the reg > anyway to connect the remote transmitter. He should bring his reg with his AI computer attached and rent the rest. I'm completely serious about buying your used Cobra. If you're interested, just reply to this posting and we can set it up. Regards, Ross -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller > > If you like the Cobra but don't want a console, consider the Suunto > > Vyper. It's the same computer only it's not air-integrated. I talked [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > He should bring his reg with his AI computer attached and rent the rest. The regulator with all the hoses attached is probably one of the most awkward things to take on vacation, next to a wet suit. If I only dive a couple of days it's not worth taking it. Rental regulators work fine even if they don't breathe quite as well as mine. It's nice to take the computer for the familiarity with the displays, they may not have rental computers and it saves a few buck in rental. That argument would rule out the hose mounted AI. A wireless with a backup analog SPG is one option and I would just take the wrist computer with me. Another option is the Vyper with conventional compass/SPG console. I just take the Vyper with me. A backup SPG with Cobra is really awkward as it needs two high pressure hoses. Adam > The regulator with all the hoses attached is probably one of the > most awkward things to take on vacation, next to a wet suit. Hm. I pack my regulator (with 7' hose and computer attached), mask, wrist compass, and swimsuit in a "regulator bag" that takes up about a quarter of the main pouch of my laptop backpack or a much smaller fraction of my actual carry-on bag. Never even occured to me that that little regulator bag would be awkward to take with me... It's always sitting on top of my other scuba stuff and is pretty much a grab and go proposition... > A backup SPG with Cobra is really awkward as it needs two high > pressure hoses. Why do you need to carry a backup SPG with you on a dive? If the Cobra fails, that dive is over. Solve any problems that would keep you from going to the surface and head up. The fact that you don't have an SPG doesn't mean you lost all of your gas. It's still there. Now, if you can't find another SPG on the surface, you're done diving for the day, but to carry your spare on the dive seems a little silly. Regards, Ross -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller >>so I added yet-another high-pressure hose and a backup analog SPG. >>I could have saved a lot of money with the Vyper and an analog SPG [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you've got enough to get to the surface (and almost certainly solve > one or two problems at depth). > I'm completely serious about buying your used Cobra. If you're > interested, just reply to this posting and we can set it up. Ross: If I had to do it over again I would have saved $200 on getting the Vyper over the Cobra. Now that I have it I think I'll keep it, thanks. You made a good argument for an air-integrated computer helping you to monitor your air consumption rate, and the Cobra is supposed to also monitor Nitrox levels as well. Air Consumption is just one more thing that my computer can monitor for me, and will hopefully help me become a better diver. As a novice diver I found the extra HP hose disconcerting at first, but after a couple of dives I got used to it. I can probably reduce the clutter by mounting the redundant guage more out of the way. I may switch out my Octo/safe 2nd with BC-attached safe 2nd to get rid of one of the hoses (which will cost more $, of course). Jerry > > I appreciate your ideas to ponder. I am looking for a good conservative computer with easy > > to read numerals. The reason the wireless attracted me is if I travel and plan to only [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Jerry I think if I were in your situation and had the Cobra I would follow Ross Bagley's advice. Just bite the bullet and not use another gauge on another hose, unless you're into deep decompression diving. As he says, if the pressure reading should fail (unlikely) just end the dive. If you think that is a possibility you can take the SPG gauge with hose along but I would not connect it and bother with two HP hoses. With the wireless the pressure readings may be more precarious and it makes sense to use a separate SPG. Here you only have one HP hose to deal with and have a redundant pressure reading. Adam [...snip...] > Nobody even vaguely familiar with decompression diving would consider > a hoseless AI to bet their life on, use it for decompression, or at the > worst, do either without a reliable SPG. If I'm just using it for recreational diving, how am I "betting my life" on it? > Wireless is about putting AI computers on your wrist instead of your > console. Anyone thinking that trading a tough as nails HP hose for > fragile transmitters with unknowable battery life remaining, is a > good trade, is mistaken. Depends on how critical you think an SPG is, doesn't it? I consider it a nice to have and I'll end the dive if it fails, but I'm not going to feel that my life is at risk if it goes tits-up mid dive. > Of course they sell these things to people that put "user > replaceable batteries" at the top of their requirements list, so > it's probably effective marketing. I like the user-replaceable batteries, though it's not at the top of the list. > If you see a Vytec on a rig sans SPG, you are looking at a NOOB. A > wannabe NOOB trying to impress people with expensive techie crap. Hm. I wouldn't have used those words to describe myself. I've probably got 400 dives since 1999. But you are entitled to your position on the issue. > They haven't taken a single course beyond AOW (day after O/W). Whoops, you missed there. > Chances are, there's a B/P and wing underneath (or Zeagle Ranger) > and split fins on the end of it. No split fins (Mares Quattros), but I do like my BP/wing for spearfishing (and all of my other diving). If I disconnect the wireless transmitter on my (admittedly few) deco dives to use the Vytec as a pricey bottom timer, am I still a wannabe NOOB tech diver? I like the AI for the multiple countdowns (remaining NDL time, remaining air time) it gives me on my open water dives. This is fast feedback for how I'm exerting myself and if I'm doing a good job staying relaxed and breathing slowly and deeply. Regards, Ross -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller > Depends on how critical you think an SPG is, doesn't it? I consider > it a nice to have and I'll end the dive if it fails, but I'm not going > to feel that my life is at risk if it goes tits-up mid dive. Considering all the years that we dove without an SPG, using only a J-valve, they're probably not a critical piece of gear in a non-overhead environment... >[...snip...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If I'm just using it for recreational diving, how am I "betting my >life" on it? That is, like, one of the funniest posts I've read in recent weeks. Sorry you don't like the shoes, Ross. I didn't make them with you in mind. My advice would be to take them off and stop complaining about how much they hurt. safety diving, bullshark > I like the AI for the multiple countdowns (remaining NDL time, > remaining air time) it gives me on my open water dives. This is fast > feedback for how I'm exerting myself and if I'm doing a good job > staying relaxed and breathing slowly and deeply. You need an electronic device to tell you that? Just how unaware are you of what's going on? Mebbe you should get a waterproof heart monitor as well so you can make sure you're alive. Brian Edmonton, Alberta > > I like the AI for the multiple countdowns (remaining NDL time, > > remaining air time) it gives me on my open water dives. This is fast [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Just how unaware are you of what's going on? Mebbe you should get a > waterproof heart monitor as well so you can make sure you're alive. I was amazed how much better I can do at slowing my breathing when I've got feedback telling me how I'm doing. As in, I really pissed off a female dive buddy who thinks she's pretty hot sh.t. Before we dove together, she was bragging a little bit about how little air she consumes after 600 dives and having to dive for her job for the last six months (marine biologist). I only had 150 dives at the time. On the first two dives together (right after I bought my AI computer), I was paying a lot of attention to the remaining air time and trying to "push it out" as far as possible without feeling like I was pushing my body into something uncomfortable. So anyway, we're doing these nice easy dives on the Blackbeard's cruise, and she's not being a very good buddy. She's asking me about my remaining air, but she won't let me see hers. I see her checking it and she'll give me an "ok", but she will not under any circumstances let me see her gauge. Well, it's not that hard to maneuver yourself to get a glimpse of an analog gauge and see what's going on, so I start doing this. On the third dive, I notice what the issue is. I'm using less gas than she is. Consistently. To the point that we're usually the first off the boat and the last ones back on. But she's not at all happy that a man with only 150 dives under his belt is using less gas than she is. From that moment, I have been sold on the feedback that a digital SPG gives me. I prefer the analog to digital displays, but the additional information that a digital SPG can give you are worth that compromise in display clarity. IMHO, of course. Regards, Ross -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller > > I like the AI for the multiple countdowns (remaining NDL time, > > remaining air time) it gives me on my open water dives. This is fast [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Just how unaware are you of what's going on? Mebbe you should get a > waterproof heart monitor as well so you can make sure you're alive. Good point. Now just think of how you can save a few hundred dollars more by just getting a bottom timer and learning to use tables, being in control of your dive. Curtis > > > I like the AI for the multiple countdowns (remaining NDL time, > > > remaining air time) it gives me on my open water dives. This is fast [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Curtis I hope you're being facetious. You use a heart rate monitor as feedback to maintain adequate exercise not to know if you're alive. In the same vein Ross points out that AI can provide feedback to decrease air consumption and not just know you have adequate air time. Adam > I hope you're being facetious. Dead serious. > You use a heart rate monitor as feedback to maintain > adequate exercise not to know if you're alive. Guess sparring taught me that, without the monitor. > In the same vein Ross points out that AI > can provide feedback to decrease air consumption and not just know you have adequate air > time. Well, my last dive was conducted with 330 CF of back gas, so wasn't really concerned about adequite gas supply. ;-) Been using an Uwatec BT for going on 2 years, used the saved funds for other more important goodies. Logs last 9 dives, has water temp, depth, time, max depth, and ascent rate warning. Works with air, nitrox and trimix, including gas changes, recreational or deco diving when coupled with the computer between the ears, except on fishbreath models that don't have one of those. Guess I don't need training wheels. :-) Curtis > > I hope you're being facetious. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Curtis Sorry my reply was meant to Brian, but to reply to you, it's impossible to get the same degree of monitoring of nitrogen tissue loading and dive time without a computer. I presume you are a table user, but tables do not allow for multilevel diving and any computer diver can easily exceed dive table diving in dive time. Adam #"Curtis" <cavey_curtis@yahoo.com> wrote in message #news:aFP3c.8179$p77.3509@bignews3.bellsouth.net... #> Guess I don't need training wheels. :-) #> #> Curtis # #Sorry my reply was meant to Brian, but to reply to you, it's impossible to get #the same #degree of monitoring of nitrogen tissue loading and dive time without a #computer. I #presume you are a table user, but tables do not allow for multilevel diving #and any #computer diver can easily exceed dive table diving in dive time. # # Adam, I'm going to step in here and suggest you go off, buy your Vytec, sit down and shut up. You're a newbie diver (trust me, it's obvious) and people like Brian and Curtis are so far above you in experience that you're starting to look like an idiot. Alan > #"Curtis" <cavey_curtis@yahoo.com> wrote in message > #news:aFP3c.8179$p77.3509@bignews3.bellsouth.net... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Alan OK wise one I trust you. The message <u5Q3c.14050$%06.12602@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: - you don't necessarily need 'the same degree of nitrogen monitoring' off a theoretical alogarithm and theoretical tissue compartments in an ideal, but conservative, hypothetical diver though do you?? My computer went flat about 6 months ago, its sitting on my desk at work, to remind me to get round to replacing the battery, so far not having it hasn't made one iota of difference to any dive I've made since, a d-timer has worked just as well, I have completely failed to notice the difference in my diving. Fi > Sorry my reply was meant to Brian, but to reply to you, it's > impossible to get the same [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > diving and any > computer diver can easily exceed dive table diving in dive time. > Adam > The message <u5Q3c.14050$%06.12602@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fi I presume you are diving with tables then? The message <8vn4c.34996$aT1.10079@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: > I presume you are diving with tables then? yes and no, I don't take them with me shallower than about 45m, deeper and I will. Shallow I'll work it out as I go along, if you've dived a similar profile often enough it's not rocket science, although it does take time before you can work it out for yourself, and perhaps it isn't a good idea for everyone > The message <8vn4c.34996$aT1.10079@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > take time before you can work it out for yourself, and perhaps it isn't > a good idea for everyone I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive with no nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket science. > > yes and no, I don't take them with me shallower than about 45m, deeper > > and I will. Shallow I'll work it out as I go along, if you've dived a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket > science. Incoming!!!!! > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive with no > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket > science. Adam, lots of technical divers do exactly this. Anyone I do deco dives with can do this. Once you understand decompression and have experience with the gasses and times at various depths, it makes sense; a light goes on. If you are going to do deco dives, you will be much better off getting a deco program and cutting tables and learning about decompression than you will following a computer. You need to be able to figure out how to do the best you can with what you've got when things go sideways. > > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive with no > > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > figure out how to do the best you can with what you've got when things > go sideways. That is especially true of military divers from what I read. They don't use computers as far as I could tell from the Navy diving manual. But that is a totally different type of diving. They are regimented and are told how long to stay at each depth and do not get distracted by funny looking fish. They also have a dive officer who instructs them, they have the ability to get the chamber quickly and accept higher risks than rec divers. Recreational divers easily get distracted. Part of the fun of diving is exploring things that interest you. Once you deviate from a fixed dive profile you can easily exceed computer limits and by the time DCS become symptomatic it's too late. Adam > > > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive with no > > > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that interest you. Once you deviate from a fixed dive profile you can easily exceed > computer limits and by the time DCS become symptomatic it's too late. Guess its a good thing that we're talking about technical divers then. Dennis > Adam #"Al Wells" <fossuldiver@seatypsy.us> wrote in message #news:MPG.1abc167775139b05989699@news.verizon.net... #> In article <Erq4c.35198$aT1.20285@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, #> sendspamhere@yahoo.com says... #> > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive #> > with no #> > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is #> > not rocket #> > science. #> #> Adam, lots of technical divers do exactly this. Anyone I do deco dives #> with can do this. Once you understand decompression and have experience #> with the gasses and times at various depths, it makes sense; a light #> goes on. If you are going to do deco dives, you will be much better off #> getting a deco program and cutting tables and learning about #> decompression than you will following a computer. You need to be able to #> figure out how to do the best you can with what you've got when things #> go sideways. # #That is especially true of military divers from what I read. "from what I read" This pretty much says everything about you, Adam. > #"Al Wells" <fossuldiver@seatypsy.us> wrote in message > #news:MPG.1abc167775139b05989699@news.verizon.net... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > This pretty much says everything about you, Adam. Those who have nothing to contribute resort to ad hominem attacks. I am a recreational diver and have never claimed to be anything else. It's a hobby for me and have no desire to dive for the military. Adam <snip> > > #That is especially true of military divers from what I read. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am a recreational diver and have never claimed to be anything else. It's a hobby for me > and have no desire to dive for the military. Then when chatting with the folks who are technical divers (of which I am not), who have done the deep dives on trimix & etc, rearrange the cotton. Dennis > Adam > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive with no > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket > science. Shut the f.ck up. You really don't have a clue, do you? Brian Edmonton, Alberta > > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive with no > > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Brian > Edmonton, Alberta I suggest you go back to PADI beginner course and start from square one. > I suggest you go back to PADI beginner course and start from square one. hint: you are seriously out of your league here. Some of the people you are arguing with are members of or frequently dive with some of the most accomplished and respected (by those who have a clue)cave and shipwreck exploration teams in the world, as well as some very experienced and knowledgeable recreational divers. Take their advice or leave it, but you have no clue at all what and with whom you are arguing. If you want to play with a Vytec toy, go buy it and do it, and stop looking silly trying to argue it with people who really do know better than your PADI instructor (most likely the same DSM who is trying to sell you the Vytec). The message <aTF4c.36335$aT1.21094@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: > > Shut the f.ck up. You really don't have a clue, do you? > > > > Brian > > Edmonton, Alberta > I suggest you go back to PADI beginner course and start from square one. That's the funniest thing I've read this week :) F > > > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you dive with no > > > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I suggest you go back to PADI beginner course and start from square one. Hey Adam? You really are a funny guy. Last time I dove with Brian, it was 300 feet for 15 minutes, along a vertical wall with 1800 feet of depth, and that was 3 years ago. He's already forgot more about diving than you will ever know, given your attitude. You have been given good advice, and in a manner quite polite for this group, and your response is unbridled arrogance, topped with a healthy portion of ignorance. You want us to validate the purchase decision you have made, based upon what the LDS needs to sell you. Aint going to happen. Go do what everyone like you does, and buy the damn thing, then see what you can get for it off eBay when you learn just how stupid it was to buy it in the first place, and more importantly, why. > > > > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft. If you > dive with no [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Last time I dove with Brian, it was 300 feet for 15 minutes, along a > vertical wall with 1800 feet of depth, and that was 3 years ago. That explains it . It resulted in a serious permanent hit to the brain. Adam > He's already forgot more about diving than you will ever know, given your > attitude. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > can get for it off eBay when you learn just how > stupid it was to buy it in the first place, and more importantly, why. > That explains it . It resulted in a serious permanent hit to the brain. Come on man. There is less than nothing wrong with Brian. > > That explains it . It resulted in a serious permanent hit to the brain. > > Come on man. > > There is less than nothing wrong with Brian. Come on. Diving to 300 ft in Lake Wabamum must do some damage. > I suggest you go back to PADI beginner course and start from square one. I would expect to find you filling the seat next to me. Brian Edmonton, Alberta The message <Erq4c.35198$aT1.20285@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: > I don't want to sound judgmental but 45 meters is over 135 ft And?.. . If you dive with no > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. > That is not rocket > science. Hint - I'd be more worried about my He bubbles at 45m No, the point is that a computer, or particularly an intergrated/singing/dancing computer thingy is not the only way to stay un-bent. In fact if I was using one, I'd probably ignore it's depth/time stops anyway, as it isn't going to put it deep stops, and if i do, is going to heavily penalise me for them. Learning about deco, working our what works for you ( or what doesn't) playing around with various pc based programmes at various gases and depths, you'll eventually get an idea of what works, how an additional x minutes affects your run time etc. off the top of my head, a half hour 45m dive will give a run time of just under an hour, with the first stop at about 24m, the last around 15 minutes, I'd fit the curve en-route - its not hard, provided you have alreaady got the experience to back it up. Do similar dives enough times, you'll eventually work it out Personally I feel safer doing that than blindly following some computer - and I've saved ?x to spend on going diving love n hugs F > The message <Erq4c.35198$aT1.20285@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > un-bent. In fact if I was using one, I'd probably ignore it's depth/time > stops anyway, as it isn't going to put it deep stops, I'm sure that Adam has *no clue* what a deep stop is or why they are a good idea. and if i do, is > going to heavily penalise me for them. > Learning about deco, working our what works for you ( or what doesn't) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > love n hugs > F > The message <Erq4c.35198$aT1.20285@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > love n hugs > F The Suuntos actually can display the "floor" as well the "ceiling". The floor is the deepest that one starts to offgas, so as long as your stop is above the floor the Suuntos will credit the stop. Adam > > The message <8vn4c.34996$aT1.10079@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> > > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > nitrogen monitoring to that depth it really is asking for trouble. That is not rocket > science. Which is why she clearly states that "she works it out as she goes along" since she's dives similar profiles often enough for dives less than 45 meters. Otherwise, if she goes deeper, she takes along the tables, likely generated before the dive based on the mix she's using. You really should read some of her trip reports. Dennis > > > The message <8vn4c.34996$aT1.10079@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> > > > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Dennis I reread her post and she does imply she plans her profile, presumably according to some dive table or computer printout. I have not read her dive reports. Adam > > > > The message <8vn4c.34996$aT1.10079@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> > > > > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I reread her post and she does imply she plans her profile, presumably according to some > dive table or computer printout. I have not read her dive reports. I would have thought "deeper and I will (take them with me)" a bit more than an implication, but ok. You really should read 'em. Very well written and good reads. Ex: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q137217B7 Note the following: "All dives were done using decoplanner set to 20/100, with 50% and 100% as deco gasses, and no problems whatso-ever, although we did do a very slow ascent and a bit extra from 6m." Dennis > Adam > > > > > The message <8vn4c.34996$aT1.10079@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net> > > > > > from "Adam Helberg" <sendspamhere@yahoo.com> contains these words: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Dennis Dennis, I was referring to her referrence to "shallow" dives, less than 45m. She does imply she uses tables but just does not take them with her. The dive report is interesting and she does do difficult diving, not just because of depth but also in cold water. Adam > I hope you're being facetious. You use a heart rate monitor as feedback to maintain > adequate exercise not to know if you're alive. It's a f.cking joke which your newbie a.s didn't get. >In the same vein Ross points out that AI > can provide feedback to decrease air consumption and not just know you have adequate air > time. And you're wrong on that as well. Are you sure your name isn't Ben Bradlee? Jeezus, Spencer leaves and a new whipping boy takes his place. They never end. Brian Edmonton, Alberta >In the same vein Ross points out that AI >can provide feedback to decrease air consumption and not just know you have adequate air >time. Adam, AI monitors do not have a little 'flow meter'. They have to guess at air consumption. They can't distinguish between LP inflators and breathing. They can only estimate actual gas in the tank. It is well known that 'instant' consumption readings are inaccurate and often as much 5 minutes behind current consumption. If you take one breath from a 3000 psi tank how much will the PSI drop? Will it even be perceptible? How do you debounce the shock wave set up in the tank from the valve opening and closing? How do you know if the instant pressure is valve open or closed? That answer is unknowable without precise information about the tank and the gas in it. Everything is a guess, and it takes long periods for any certainty to drip in and that, only if depth remains constant over that period. There are several threads discussing this in the archives. As to adequate air time, that is a crutch and not a very good one. You need to learn you own consumption rates and until you do, stay close to the boat. If you: 1) swim up current at the start 2) turn around and come back at 2000 psi Learn your consumption habits. A relaxed diver breathes as much as he needs to. No more, no less. You don't need a freaking gauge to tell you how much to breathe right now do you? If you were asleep under water, you'd breathe the same as you do in your bed. The reason most people can't get their breathing under control is buoyancy (with thermal protection a close 2nd). They can't get their buoyancy under control because they 1) don't work at it and 2) are over-weighted. An AI computer will fix none of that. Remaining Bottom Time out of any computer is a lie and it's one that often causes concern, even panic in those that observe it. I've seen this several times on liveaboards. The crucial datapoint: what depth will you be at in the future? You know that, the computer doesn't. If you don't know your air consumption habits, that doesn't help anyone. AI is junk. Wireless AI is expensive junk. Get a wrist mount Vyper 350 pro ultra 350 smart pro 450 Versa pro or Veo-200 250-300 the uwatecs are way better machines(change battery at 8-10 year intervals), but they don't have a good gauge mode. If you do nitrox, there is no contest, the Suuntos are cripples. You've been diving oceanic, why do you want to change? You have confidence and familiarity with their operation. Do you think one of these others will "not bend you" more or better? If display is your issue, the pro ultra has the best, most readable, no-nonsense display around. I think you might be looking for gadgets, which is fine, as long as you know that. But why not go diving instead? safe diving, bullshark > AI monitors do not have a little 'flow meter'. True. They don't need one. > They have to guess at air consumption. False. They don't try to calculate air consumption. They calculate the rate of pressure reduction. > They can't distinguish between LP inflators and breathing. True. Again, they don't need to do that to be useful. The gas you put in your BC is still gas that you've taken from the tank. Trying to separate that out seems like more of a mistake than leaving it in. > They can only estimate actual gas in the tank. False. They extremely accurately determine actual pressure in the tank. > It is well known that 'instant' consumption readings are > inaccurate and often as much 5 minutes behind current consumption. You're confusing two statements. 1) instant consumption reading are inaccurate Which is true (and why no AI computers deliver instant consumption readings), and another statement: 2) accurate readings are often as much as 5 minutes behind current consumption A five minute running average is one way of "debouncing" the consumption rate readings. But it's only one way and again, no AI computer that I know of does that. Suunto uses a running average that throws out old data if the newer consumption data is of a higher consumption rate. It takes a while to convince a Cobra or Vytek to acknowledge that you've slowed your breathing from some higher level, but if you start exerting yourself, it shows the increased consumption rate right away. > If you take one > breath from a 3000 psi tank how much will the PSI drop? From an S80 and a deep breath in my lungs, a little less than 4psi. From my HP120, a little less than 3psi. > Will it even be perceptible? Yes. You can watch the pressure gauge drop a few psi for each breath if that's what you want to do with your time. At the safety stop, it's often the most interesting thing to do (which is why I know the 4psi number...). > How do you debounce the shock wave set up in the tank from the valve > opening and closing? How do you know if the instant pressure is > valve open or closed? The HP line is on the tank side of the first stage valve. There is no perceptible bounce (unlike the pressures in the IP region which definitely bounces around). > That answer is unknowable without precise information about the tank > and the gas in it. False. All it needs is the rate of pressure decrease. Which it has. It doesn't need to know the volume of the tank or your lungs to know when the current rate of pressure drop will result in a 750psi pressure. Demonstrated thousands of times a day on as many dives as are done with AI computers. > Everything is a guess, and it takes long periods for any certainty > to drip in and that, only if depth remains constant over that > period. False. The consumption rate can be normalized for the output from the water pressure transducer located less than an inch from the tank pressure transducer inside the AI computer. The Suunto completely takes depth into account when calculating your remaining air time. > There are several threads discussing this in the archives. If the posters in those threads agreed with you, then they're not very well informed as to what information an AI computer has and the utility of that information. I wouldn't take their word for it any more than I'm taking your uninformed word for it. > As to adequate air time, that is a crutch and not a very good > one. You need to learn you own consumption rates and until you do, > stay close to the boat. You don't let the remaining air time to control your dive. It's one more piece of information to help you control your dive. It also happens to be kind of fun (but then, I'm a little wierd on these things...). > Learn your consumption habits. A relaxed diver breathes as much as > he needs to. No more, no less. I'll bet you think that the ideal cases in your physics classes were completely applicable in the real world, too... > You don't need a freaking gauge to > tell you how much to breathe right now do you? Spoken like someone who's never tried it. I didn't think the AI would do anything but condense the pile of crap I had to look at by one gauge. But it turned out to be much more useful than I thought. > If you were asleep > under water, you'd breathe the same as you do in your bed. Patently false. Again, with the nonsensical assumptions. If you're in a wetsuit, your body is completely wet (see: mammalian dive reflex), you can't breath through your nose, you have to hold your lips around the regulator mouthpiece to keep it in place... Unless you're very lucky, your lungs are at a slightly different depth from your mouth (and thereby increasing the effort of either inhaling or exhaling). Now, why would you assume that your breathing would be the same again? > The reason most people can't get their breathing under control is > buoyancy (with thermal protection a close 2nd). How about using hands instead of fins for small movements? How about poor finning technique? How about inadequate thermal protection? How about nervousness? How about being not very fit aerobically? How about lots of reasons why people might breath more than absolutely necessary? [...snip...] > Remaining Bottom Time out of any computer is a lie It's a piece of data. A piece of data that, in my experience, has real value to a diver for taking control of their dive. Experience, being a position that, based on your comments in this thread, you couldn't possibly be speaking from. Regards, Ross -- Ross Bagley http://rossbagley.com/rba "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." -- Helen Keller > >In the same vein Ross points out that AI > >can provide feedback to decrease air consumption and not just know you have adequate air [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > bullshark Thanks for the info and opinion. I plan to dive in Eilat for a couple of days in May and they do not rent computers there. I plan to take my Prodigy off my console and put it into a wrist mount and give to my diving buddy, while I get a new computer for myself. There are two reasons I would not get Oceanic. Several months after I bought my Prodigy I was playing with it and noticed the diving tables in it do not correspond with the ones listed in the owner's manual. I emailed Oceanic and they exchanged it for a new Prodigy that had correct tables. The Prodigy ascent indicator is almost useless as every dive shows red no matter how slow ascent. There is no safety stop time like the Suuntos have. The Oceanics do appear to have large, easy to read displays. I've also had similar problems with Oceanic regulator-- it was flooding and they exchanged that as well. These experiences have decreased my trust in Oceanic gear. Also there have been several articles on dive computers in Rodale's and the Oceanics are much more liberal than Suunto. I believe Suunto's RGB algorithm is more advanced and conservative. I like the graphical display which I believe the Uwatec do not use. Another one that appears attractive is the Cressi-Sub Archimede, which has a nice graphical display with large digits (Rodale Jan/Feb 2003) and is conservative Can I ask you why you say The Suuntos are cripples with nitrox?. Adam > > > I like the AI for the multiple countdowns (remaining NDL time, > > > remaining air time) it gives me on my open water dives. This is fast [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > more by just getting a bottom timer and learning to use tables, being in > control of your dive. I like you. Welcome to my Good-Guy-Knows-His-Stuff list. Brian Edmonton, Alberta > Hmm. If you use a pressure gauge it has to be on a hose and that defeats the argument in > favor of wireless that you have one less hose? I have never used that argument, the reason i have the wireless Vytec, is because i feel the computer is better for me than my old vytec due to mixed gasses switching, and that i can have it on my wrist and still see the amount of air. Another thing is i am doing a lot of helping with education of divers, and when we simulate the 'out of air' by turning of the air supply, the Vytec looses connection, and instead of needing to reconnect while there are students around i prefer simply to use my normal manometer. And it is also a little bit weird, to tell the students about having a manometer on a hose, but when showing it, it is wireless. But on a normal dive i have simply put the manometer into a pocket in my BCD, and only take it out if my Vytec looses connection, which has happened about 2 times all together. SignatureBest regards S?ren Reinke www.bluehorizons.dk Scandinavias new diving and traveling online magazine -Remove 'ihsyd' from email when mailing directly If you're having trouble reading the digits, take a look at the uwatec models..... >>>I'm looking to upgrade from my old Oceanic Prodigy and want to hear >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Any problem losing signal from transmitter? How do you manage your compass? I have had a vytec with pressure transducer for several years. I like having the pressure readout on the wrist. There is very little effort needed to check gas supply, depth and time. I still carry the traditional SPG as a backup. I would never fully rely on just the wireless transmitter. I make it a point to compare both gauges while on the dive. I have never had a failure underwater, but I have had problems getting the computer to sync with the tranducer on the surface. When there is a problem the computer makes it plain and obvious. When I have done decompression dives, I like having the tranducer as a backup SPG. I have one on each post this way. I like the logging capabilties and gass consumption statistics. Once again I like the ease with which I can verify gas supply, depth and time quickly from the wrist. I use the computer more as a gauge timer than for its nitrogen tracking. On recreational dives I use the computer for its nitrogen tracking. The gauge is some what easy to read. I wanted a more analog measure of gas loading like the "Resource Computer" but the NDL is plain and obvious as a number and probably a better measure of where you are. The vytec will prompt you for the 3 minute safety stop when you reach 20 ft. I like the saftey stops count down of time. All in all, I use it as a good tool. I don't let it tell me how to dive. I use it to display good data and backup my own decisions. I don't use it for planning a dive. Patrick |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.