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Scuba Forum / General / March 2004

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Aircraft wreck

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Steve Carmichael-Timson - 04 Mar 2004 00:47 GMT
Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?

http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg

Steve
Popeye NCAT3 - 04 Mar 2004 01:13 GMT
>From: "Steve Carmichael-Timson" stevect@dont.bother.com
>Date: 3/3/04 7:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Steve

 Martin China Clipper.

   

                     
                                    Popeye
            "If one does as God does enough times, one
            will become as God is."  -Dr. Hannibal Lector.
Steve Carmichael-Timson - 04 Mar 2004 09:03 GMT
> >From: "Steve Carmichael-Timson" stevect@dont.bother.com
> >Date: 3/3/04 7:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>   Martin China Clipper.

Looks more like a Shorts Sunderland to me.
Joe English - 04 Mar 2004 01:22 GMT
> Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?
>
> http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg
>
> Steve

I think it is a cigar moistened by M Lewinsky
Steve Carmichael-Timson - 04 Mar 2004 08:59 GMT
Now I remember why you were on my kill list.

> > Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I think it is a cigar moistened by M Lewinsky
Robert \ - 04 Mar 2004 03:55 GMT
> Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?
>
> http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg
>
> Steve

In order of probability, in light of the quality of the sonar:

dc4/c54/c118
handley page h.p.81 hermes 4
solent 4 aranui

doc.
Lee Bell - 05 Mar 2004 05:04 GMT
Robert "Doc" Adelman, C.I.D. wrote:
>> Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> handley page h.p.81 hermes 4
> solent 4 aranui

It's one of those etchings I used to invite ladys over to see.

Lee
Steve Carmichael-Timson - 05 Mar 2004 10:17 GMT
> Robert "Doc" Adelman, C.I.D. wrote:
> >> Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Lee

Do you also get into your rubber suit and strap things to your body too?
;-)

Steve
Chuck Tribolet - 07 Mar 2004 19:51 GMT
No way it's a DC-4 (or DC-6 or DC-7).  The wings would be a lot longer relative to their width.

Signature

Chuck Tribolet
triblet@garlic.com
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet

Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world.

> > Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> doc.
Dan Nafe - 04 Mar 2004 10:35 GMT
> http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg

Likely to be fake.

This image shoes ailerons to be intact. Unless this a/c went down just
before the image was made, the fabric on the control surfaces would not
be intact.

Where are the engines? Unlikely that all four would cleanly depart the
aircraft as shown unless they were all developing full power. (if all
four engines were at full power, why is the aircraft now underwater?) (I
know, there could be many reasons...)

The tail volume looks a little small for a real aircraft and what is up
with the faint image of of a logo on the vertical stabilizor/rudder?

Just my opinion...

Dan
http://www.scuba-training.net
Steve Carmichael-Timson - 04 Mar 2004 12:12 GMT
> > http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Just my opinion...

This is supposed to be one of the many aircraft supposedly scuttled after
WWII.  In the Clyde there is a row of  Catalina aircraft fuselages that have
had the engines removed and then sunk so that would account for the missing
engines.  Fabric on the control surfaces?  I have seen aircraft in the sea
where the fabric control surfaces have gone but I have seen the remains of
fabric on boats in fresh water lakes which was largely intact.
Ron T - 04 Mar 2004 23:39 GMT
> > http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg
>
> Likely to be fake.

Professional opinion (24 years as a professional photographer) ...

It is a fake. That is nothing more than a standard photo run through
Photoshop using the following filters:

Greyscale
Add noise
Unsharpmask
Bas Relief
Levels (to lighten it)
Blur

I just did the same thing to a mug shot, it looks virtually the same.
Matthias Voss - 05 Mar 2004 10:06 GMT
Ron T schrieb:

> > > http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It is a fake.

And the reason for that would be?

What about the professional opinion of someone who uses sidescan sonar
as a part of his professional activity?

What I find strange, there seems to be an earlier impact on the floor,
as if the plane had shifted slightly to the left afterwards.

Matthias

That is nothing more than a standard photo run through
> Photoshop using the following filters:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I just did the same thing to a mug shot, it looks virtually the same.
Steve Carmichael-Timson - 05 Mar 2004 16:38 GMT
> Ron T schrieb:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Matthias

I use side scan sonar a lot and I see a lot of piccies like this.  Some have
obviously been faked up but as you say Matthias, there seems to be an impact
on the floor.  I have had a good look and my judgement is lets kit up and go
and take a look.   If it isn't there we have a good dive and get to play
with our toys which is what it's all about.

Steve
Ed - 05 Mar 2004 18:17 GMT
>Ron T schrieb:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Matthias

the plane could have shifted wouldn't take much with that surface
area, but it could also be scour marks from current

not enough information on a low res image, especially since it's
missing the rest of the display which would indicate distance of the
fish from bottom and distance from the surface, dist to object and you
can then figure out approx size of the object and height above the
bottom (from shadow)

the acoustic shadow is a mite strange ... but that doesn't mean it's
fake

the starboard wing has shadow on both leading and trailing edge
I'm trying to figure out where the fish would have to be placed to
create that shadow, AND keep in mind the rest of the shadows.
Acoustic shadows are perpendicular to the transducer face and should
be consistent in regards to orientation

note: a depression will display a shadow , current can create
turbulence at an object and dig a depression in front of the object,
which will create an acoustic shadow,  though the shadow seems to be
too even .. it's not what I would expect, but image interpretation is
as much voodoo as science :^)

image id and date are mucked with in the upper left hand corner
I get 24/12/0(?) looks like a 03 the text before is ? seems to be WTCH
... (?)

I could be a sidescan image from a long range unit (freq 100 khz or
less)  with the fish held high and the target is at the far edge of
the field ...  it does look like there was some image manipulation to
degrade the image, and the obscuring of the id tag

or it could be a plane in a field next to a fence and a healthy dose
of photoshop

    my 2 cents = no answers, just more questions :^)

--

Drysuit talc & bags http://www.underwaterusa.com
Robert \ - 05 Mar 2004 19:35 GMT
"Ed" <SpammerdontbotherEd.Bell@NOSPAM.invalid> > the plane could have
shifted wouldn't take much with that surface
> area, but it could also be scour marks from current

If there's that much current, she would have "flown" and been torn to bits-
especially considering the advanced age of any likely airframe of that
dimension.

I have seen evidence of many "placed airplane wrecks" doing this.

The easiest one to relate to, and most known by divers was the DC3 at
CoCoView. That placement was botched by an eager but inept neighboring
property that simply plopped it into 30fsw that has occasional storm
currents. She was placed nose up and into the potential heavy current. It
arrived ultimately- now she lays in pieces, moved 60' and turned 90 degrees.

Once- at another location- I even saw a UW 'flight' in person. whoooeeeeeee.

doc.
Matthias Voss - 07 Mar 2004 17:07 GMT
Ed schrieb:
> >What about the professional opinion of someone who uses sidescan sonar
> >as a part of his professional activity?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> can then figure out approx size of the object and height above the
> bottom (from shadow)

There may be reasons for this, same as for the line shown on the right
side. I have seen similar lines at archeologocal sites.


> the starboard wing has shadow on both leading and trailing edge
> I'm trying to figure out where the fish would have to be placed to
> create that shadow, AND keep in mind the rest of the shadows.
> Acoustic shadows are perpendicular to the transducer face and should
> be consistent in regards to orientation

I have seen shadows, and even signal traces in areas which were shadowed
to the signal. Maybe some sort of echo signals.


> note: a depression will display a shadow , current can create
> turbulence at an object and dig a depression in front of the object,
> which will create an acoustic shadow,  though the shadow seems to be
> too even .. it's not what I would expect, but image interpretation is
> as much voodoo as science :^)

May an overlaying deflection of a thermocline, or something else.

> image id and date are mucked with in the upper left hand corner
> I get 24/12/0(?) looks like a 03 the text before is ? seems to be WTCH
> ... (?)

Wndehi?ner e 24/12/03 / my guess. May PGP ;-)


> I could be a sidescan image from a long range unit (freq 100 khz or
> less)  with the fish held high and the target is at the far edge of
> the field ...  it does look like there was some image manipulation to
> degrade the image, and the obscuring of the id tag

My opinion as well.

Matthias
rnf2 - 07 Mar 2004 18:44 GMT
> > image id and date are mucked with in the upper left hand corner
> > I get 24/12/0(?) looks like a 03 the text before is ? seems to be WTCH
> > ... (?)
>
> Wndehi?ner e 24/12/03 / my guess. May PGP ;-)

Go look in uk.rec.scuba for the name... can't remember it, but it's the
location of the Shorts plane factory.

> > I could be a sidescan image from a long range unit (freq 100 khz or
> > less)  with the fish held high and the target is at the far edge of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Matthias
Rick Simms - 06 Mar 2004 01:46 GMT
§Anybody want to guess what this is and has anyone seen it before?
§
§http://www.divetheworld.com/images/sonar%20contact.jpg
§
§Steve
§
§
§

I believe it's a Short Sunderland flying boat.

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Sund.htm

http://home.att.net/~david.pride/Aviation/Other_09.htm

The webpage doesn't mention it's submerged loacation but the scan
gives the appearance of it being completely intact. That might
indicate that it is located in a cold freshwater location. A salt
water location should have shown more deterioration.  

Rick Simms
****************************************  
If you think dogs can't count,
try putting three dog biscuits in your
pocket and then giving Fido only two of them.

-Phil Pastoret
 
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