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Scuba Forum / General / March 2004

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Fly after dive question

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Michael 182 - 03 Mar 2004 21:50 GMT
Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun, and
I'm looking forward to my first reef dives in two weeks in Hawaii.

I am also a private pilot - I own a single engine Cessna. I plan on flying
to dive sites with friends and family. The info on post dive flying I've
seen is oriented toward commercial flights - pressurization is about 8,000
ft. I can fly much lower than that. Where can I find a set of
tables/guidelines for flying after diving that includes different altitudes?
Do dive computers calculate this?

Thanks,

Michael
R Benner - 03 Mar 2004 21:54 GMT
> Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun, and
> I'm looking forward to my first reef dives in two weeks in Hawaii.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Michael

A rough rule of thumb is no flying for 12 hours after diving, more if doing
multiple dives on multiple days. This is covered in the course.
Michael 182 - 03 Mar 2004 22:30 GMT
> > Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun,
> and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> A rough rule of thumb is no flying for 12 hours after diving, more if doing
> multiple dives on multiple days. This is covered in the course.

Yes, I understand (and read that) in the course. As I said, the course
materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in commercial planes. I can
fly along happily at 1,500 feet. I'm looking for a info on that.

Thanks,

Michael
R Benner - 03 Mar 2004 22:36 GMT
> > > Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun,
> > and
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Michael

As the pilot, you will likely want to be conservative.
Al Wells - 03 Mar 2004 23:55 GMT
> Yes, I understand (and read that) in the course. As I said, the course
> materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in commercial planes. I can
> fly along happily at 1,500 feet. I'm looking for a info on that.

Look at the US Navy Diving Manual, Air Diving, available in PDF for free
at http://www.vnh.org/DivingManual/DMTOC.html
Brian Nadwidny - 04 Mar 2004 02:09 GMT
> Yes, I understand (and read that) in the course. As I said, the course
> materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in commercial planes. I can
> fly along happily at 1,500 feet. I'm looking for a info on that.

Don't worry about it.

Really.

Brian
Edmonton, Alberta
David K - 04 Mar 2004 05:27 GMT
> As I said, the course materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in commercial planes.
> I can fly along happily at 1,500 feet. I'm looking for a info on that.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael

Michael
The Earth's atmosphere is approximaetly 348 miles deep & exerts a
pressure of about 15 psi at sea level.

http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/9-12/features/912_liftoff_atm.html

When diving to a depth of 33ft our body is exposed to two (2)
atmospheres of pressure, one (1) due to the weight of the atmosphere
plus one (1) due to the weight of the water.

The change in pressure at an altitude of 1500ft is roughly equivalent
to diving to a depth of 1/3 of an inch.

That insignificant of a pressure change wont cause you to get bent, if
you do get bent it would have happened even if you stayed on the
ground.

David
Dan Nafe - 04 Mar 2004 10:44 GMT
> > As I said, the course materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in
> > commercial planes.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The change in pressure at an altitude of 1500ft is roughly equivalent
> to diving to a depth of 1/3 of an inch.

Too, rough. The pressure change in air is not linear like it is in
water, kuke. The greatest pressure change you experience is in the 1st
1,500 feet above sea-level.

I fly my Bonanza back to the US at 10,000 feet, the morning after my
last dive in the Turks and Cacios every year. The worst thing that ever
happened was that I fell asleep some where over the bahamas for about 2
seconds.

Dan
http://www.scuba-training.net
Grumman-581 - 04 Mar 2004 13:43 GMT
> I fly my Bonanza back to the US at 10,000 feet, the morning after my
> last dive in the Turks and Cacios every year. The worst thing that ever
> happened was that I fell asleep some where over the bahamas for about 2
> seconds.

But when your engine stops while you're asleep, it really is loud -- wakes
you right up...
Dan Nafe - 05 Mar 2004 01:54 GMT
> > I fly my Bonanza back to the US at 10,000 feet, the morning after my
> > last dive in the Turks and Cacios every year. The worst thing that ever
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But when your engine stops while you're asleep, it really is loud -- wakes
> you right up...

Indeed.

While flying freighters, as co-pilot, I have been awakened by the
captian's AND the flight engineer's snoring a few times, too...

Dan
http://www.scuba-training.net
Charlie Hammond - 04 Mar 2004 14:34 GMT
..
>> The change in pressure at an altitude of 1500ft is roughly equivalent
>> to diving to a depth of 1/3 of an inch.
>
>Too, rough. The pressure change in air is not linear like it is in
>water, kuke. ...

Actually, the pressure change in water is not linear with depth either.
It is just close enough to be treated as linear form most purposes.

To answer the original question --

The full-conservative answer is: "Wait 24 hours."

The slightly-less-conservative answer is "Wait 12 hours after a single
dive, or 18 hours after multiple dives."

I believe that most dive tables/computers treat altitudes of up to
1000 feet the same as sea level, so if you stay at or below 1000 feet,
you will be O.K.  However, in many areas of the USA, you can't fly
that low.  (Due to FAA regs and/or local ground level.)

If you want to be more agressive, your pretty much on your own.
Keep in mind that at lease some theory predicts that bends caused
by ascent to altitude may often occur in very slow tissues,
which many/most tables/computers do not model.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

Adam Helberg - 04 Mar 2004 17:11 GMT
> > > As I said, the course materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in
> > > commercial planes.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Dan
> http://www.scuba-training.net

Flying at 10,000 unpressurized is more extreme than airline flying, and the recommendation
here is 12 hours or 24 hours after deep or repetitive diving. Just because you get away
with it does not make it safe.

Adam
David K - 05 Mar 2004 04:32 GMT
Dan Nafe <dan@scuba-training.net> wrote in message

> Too, rough. The pressure change in air is not linear like it is in
> water, kuke. The greatest pressure change you experience is in the 1st
> 1,500 feet above sea-level.

I stand corrected; flying @ 1500ft above sea level equates pressure
wise to a dive 20 inches deep not 1/3 of an inch deep as previously
stated.

My recommendation remains unchanged.

David
de Valois - 04 Mar 2004 14:23 GMT
Michael 182 left this mess on Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:30:25 GMT for The Way to clean
up:

>> > Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun,
>> and
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in commercial planes. I can
>fly along happily at 1,500 feet. I'm looking for a info on that.

Michael, as with ascending during a dive, it's not how high you go (to an
extent) but how quickly you get there. My suspicion is your rate of elevation to
1500 feet is going to be faster than the recommended ascent rate.

Don't do it. Decompression works by gradually dissolving microbubbles of gas
from your supersaturated tissues into the bloodstream and out via exhalations.
Too fast, the bubbles form much bigger bubbles and you get a DCI hit.

Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
jim frei - 04 Mar 2004 14:34 GMT
> > > Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun,
> > and
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> materal is based on 8,000 feet pressurization in commercial planes. I can
> fly along happily at 1,500 feet. I'm looking for a info on that.

if you don't understand the implications of R Benner's response, then you
should not be diving at all.

i.e., Wait at least 12 hours after diving before flying - can you guarantee
that a sudden unexpected updraft won't push your Cessna up to six or eight
thousand feet?

Signature

jim frei
http://stormwatergroup.com

Michael 182 - 04 Mar 2004 15:18 GMT
> can you guarantee
> that a sudden unexpected updraft won't push your Cessna up to six or eight
> thousand feet?

lol... Yeah, I can guarantee that. If I am ever caught in the kind of
convective activity that would make me gain 6-8K getting bent would be the
least of my problems. Keeping the wings on the plane would be a bit more of
an issue. It's easy to avoid this kind of updraft, which only occurs in
thunderstorms or extreme wind over mountains. Mountain flying after diving
probably won't be much of an issue, and, in any case, the altutudes would
already preclude flight within 24 hours. Only a fool flies into embedded
(read invisible) thunderstorms without radar and sferics (lightning
detectors), and even then it is risky. I don't do that. If the storms are
not embedded it is simple - don't fly into them.

Michael
Grumman-581 - 05 Mar 2004 02:25 GMT
> can you guarantee that a sudden unexpected updraft
> won't push your Cessna up to six or eight
> thousand feet?

Spoken like someone who has never owned a small plane...
mike gray - 03 Mar 2004 22:08 GMT
>  Where can I find a set of
> tables/guidelines for flying after diving that includes different altitudes?

Ask Bullshark. Nicely. I'll bet he can do it.
Adam Helberg - 04 Mar 2004 00:10 GMT
> Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun, and
> I'm looking forward to my first reef dives in two weeks in Hawaii.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Michael

I'll take a stab at your question. For flying at low altitudes it is the same as altitude
diving. For example my computer (a simple Oceanic Prodigy) will compensate for diving from
altitude. Unfortunately it cannot be set manually but must be activated at the altitude,
and will deactivate if there is no dive within 2 hours. So if you activate on the plane it
will compute appropriate dive times as though you were diving from the altitude of the
plane without any further wait period.

Adam
Adam Helberg - 04 Mar 2004 17:06 GMT
> > Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun, and
> > I'm looking forward to my first reef dives in two weeks in Hawaii.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Adam

Further to my answer, if you have an altitude diving computer, which I believe most are,
you can activate at your plane altitude and see if the dive tables in the computer are
effected to any degree by the altitude. My guess is that the others are right and the
change is very small at 1500 ft, but you can actually verify this as above.

Adam
Brian Nadwidny - 04 Mar 2004 02:08 GMT
> Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun, and
> I'm looking forward to my first reef dives in two weeks in Hawaii.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> tables/guidelines for flying after diving that includes different altitudes?
> Do dive computers calculate this?

Don't worry about it.

Brian
Edmonton, Alberta
Grumman-581 - 04 Mar 2004 03:57 GMT
> I am also a private pilot - I own a single engine Cessna. I plan on flying
> to dive sites with friends and family. The info on post dive flying I've
> seen is oriented toward commercial flights - pressurization is about 8,000
> ft. I can fly much lower than that.

I'm also a private pilot / aircraft owner (as you can tell from my
moniker)... Personally, I limit myself to 1000 ft or so when I'm flying
after diving...
bullshark - 04 Mar 2004 12:36 GMT
>I am also a private pilot - I own a single engine Cessna. I plan on flying
>to dive sites with friends and family. The info on post dive flying I've
>seen is oriented toward commercial flights - pressurization is about 8,000
>ft. I can fly much lower than that.

Can you control flight conditions well enough to guarantee you stay there?

>Where can I find a set of tables/guidelines for flying after diving
>that includes different altitudes?

Yes, they're in the USN Diving manual.
http://www.americandivecenter.com/miscellaneous/usn_manual.htm

(See Chapter 9)

>Do dive computers calculate this?

No. The ones that calculate, calculate time to 8000 (or so)

My advice to you is to forget it, unless you have a qualified pilot
in the right seat.

The vast majority of bends in recreational divers occur in
divers that were well within no decompression guidelines.

Surfacing from a dive symptom free is not a guarantee that
you won't bend. You are at risk for developing bends for
about 48 hours.

However slight that risk might be, it is increased by reduced
pressure and more importantly, the outcome would be very messy
and unpleasant for your passengers, if there is not an alternate
pilot.

I would consider that irresponsible. I wouldn't be surprised to
learn that FAA explicitly prohibits diving before flying aircraft.

I think you need to look into other restrictions too. I don't believe
the prohibition on carrying compressed gases is limited to commercial
flights.

safe diving,

bullshark
Grumman-581 - 04 Mar 2004 13:51 GMT
> Can you control flight conditions well enough to guarantee you stay there?

If the weather is crappy, you might end up lower, not higher (assuming that
you aren't instrument rated)...  Nothing quite like crossing the swamps of
Louisiana at 500 ft and seeing another plane cross underneath you at perhaps
200 ft lower...

> I wouldn't be surprised to learn that FAA explicitly prohibits diving
> before flying aircraft.

Surprisingly, I don't believe that the FAA has a rule on it... They seem to
have a rule on everything else...

> I think you need to look into other restrictions too. I don't believe
> the prohibition on carrying compressed gases is limited to commercial
> flights.

It is limited to commercial flights... As a private pilot in a private
plane, I can carry compressed gases, explosive devices, corrosive liquids,
etc without the rules affecting me...
jim frei - 04 Mar 2004 14:38 GMT
.

> It is limited to commercial flights... As a private pilot in a private
> plane, I can carry compressed gases, explosive devices, corrosive liquids,
> etc without the rules affecting me...

and TSA is worried about some old white lady with knitting needles.
Grumman-581 - 05 Mar 2004 02:27 GMT
> and TSA is worried about some old white lady with knitting needles.

Well, long before they started the recent licensing of commercial pilots to
be armed, I always carried a firearm with me when I was flying... Why should
it be any different than when I'm driving?
KB9WFK - 05 Mar 2004 02:29 GMT
snip

>The vast majority of bends in recreational divers occur in
>divers that were well within no decompression guidelines.
>
>Surfacing from a dive symptom free is not a guarantee that
>you won't bend. You are at risk for developing bends for
>about 48 hours.

I will NOT say you are wrong (I'm far too inexperienced for that), but
I will ask you to please explain.
As I look at the tables, worst case top time is 12 hours to get back
to an A letter classification after a no deco dive.  Does this mean
that "A" is not the same as not having dived, or "normal"?  Am I not
understanding the tables?   I can understand there being a danger in
the first couple of hours, but 48? Shouldn't you have out gassed the
vast majority of Nitrogen within the first 12 hours if not 24?  
I believe what you are saying but could you please explain it so I
know why it is true?

>However slight that risk might be, it is increased by reduced
>pressure and more importantly, the outcome would be very messy
>and unpleasant for your passengers, if there is not an alternate
>pilot.

I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming in terror like his passengers. :-)

snip

>safe diving,
>
>bullshark

kb9wfk
bullshark - 05 Mar 2004 15:56 GMT
>>Surfacing from a dive symptom free is not a guarantee that
>>you won't bend. You are at risk for developing bends for
>>about 48 hours.
>I will ask you to please explain.

It's not very hard to explain. People who get treated for bends
suffer an onset of symptoms sometime within the first 48 hours
following the dives. In other words, you can surface, feel fine
for a day and then bend from a dive the day before.

Making assumptions about physiological states and etiology based
on row/column position on a plastic card would be a bad idea. It
locates your position in a finite state machine and conveys nothing
except the length of your next dive.

There is a lot more to DCS than uptake and elimination. Gas in
solution accounts for only a small percentage of the bodies total
capacity for inert gas. It is the component/bottleneck that we
model, but not the entire system. It is not necessarily the
controlling component. It is just a reflection.

safe diving,

bullshark
KB9WFK - 05 Mar 2004 22:11 GMT
>>>Surfacing from a dive symptom free is not a guarantee that
>>>you won't bend. You are at risk for developing bends for
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>bullshark

That works for me. Thanks for the reply and explanation.

kb9wfk
Charlie Hammond - 05 Mar 2004 16:09 GMT
>As I look at the tables, worst case top time is 12 hours to get back
>to an A letter classification after a no deco dive.  Does this mean
>that "A" is not the same as not having dived, or "normal"? ...

Correct.  

Being an "A" diver means that you are "close enough" to "normal"
that your next nodecompression stop dive does NOT have to take
retained nitrogen into account.  However, for traveling to altitude
you have to be "more nomral". -- Not that any of us are "normal"! <grin>

If you expose yourself to a high enough pressure altitude, you can
get bent without ever diving.  Dive tables and computers are designed
to minimze risk for returning to normal surface air pressure at
sea level.  The don't take into account travel to altitude.
Thus the various 24/18/12 hour rules.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

KB9WFK - 05 Mar 2004 22:11 GMT
>>As I look at the tables, worst case top time is 12 hours to get back
>>to an A letter classification after a no deco dive.  Does this mean
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>sea level.  The don't take into account travel to altitude.
>Thus the various 24/18/12 hour rules.

Thanks.  That makes sense as well.

kb9wfk
Salty - 07 Mar 2004 00:28 GMT
> >I am also a private pilot - I own a single engine Cessna. I plan on flying
> >to dive sites with friends and family. The info on post dive flying I've
> >seen is oriented toward commercial flights - pressurization is about 8,000
> >ft. I can fly much lower than that.

> Can you control flight conditions well enough to guarantee you stay there?
> >Where can I find a set of tables/guidelines for flying after diving
> >that includes different altitudes?

> Yes, they're in the USN Diving manual.
> http://www.americandivecenter.com/miscellaneous/usn_manual.htm
> (See Chapter 9)

> >Do dive computers calculate this?

> No. The ones that calculate, calculate time to 8000 (or so)

> My advice to you is to forget it, unless you have a qualified pilot
> in the right seat.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the prohibition on carrying compressed gases is limited to commercial
> flights.

> safe diving,
> bullshark

Excellent advice, Sharky and you raised some good points. But then,
that is the norm for you. :)
Paul D - 09 Mar 2004 00:59 GMT
The Airmans Information Manual, while not a "regulation" , states in Section
8-1-2. Effects of Altitude,

"d. Decompression Sickness After Scuba Diving.
   1. A pilot or passenger who intends to fly after scuba diving should
allow the body sufficient time to rid itself of excess nitrogen absorbed
during diving. If not, decompression sickness due to evolved gas can occur
during exposure to low altitude and create a serious inflight emergency.

   2. The recommended waiting time before going to flight altitudes of up
to 8,000 feet is at least 12 hours after diving which has not required
controlled ascent (nondecompression stop diving), and at least 24 hours
after diving which has required controlled ascent (decompression stop
diving). The waiting time before going to flight altitudes above 8,000 feet
should be at least 24 hours after any SCUBA dive. These recommended
altitudes are actual flight altitudes above mean sea level (AMSL) and not
pressurized cabin altitudes. This takes into consideration the risk of
decompression of the aircraft during flight. "

> > >I am also a private pilot - I own a single engine Cessna. I plan on flying
> > >to dive sites with friends and family. The info on post dive flying I've
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Excellent advice, Sharky and you raised some good points. But then,
> that is the norm for you. :)
Michael 182 - 09 Mar 2004 06:36 GMT
Thanks Paul - I should have looked in the AIM to start.

Michael

> The Airmans Information Manual, while not a "regulation" , states in Section
> 8-1-2. Effects of Altitude,
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
> > Excellent advice, Sharky and you raised some good points. But then,
> > that is the norm for you. :)
Michael 182 - 04 Mar 2004 15:29 GMT
Thanks to all for the information and references.

Michael

> Hi. I'm getting my open water certification. Even the pool work is fun, and
> I'm looking forward to my first reef dives in two weeks in Hawaii.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Michael
 
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