Ive been diving for around one year. I Recently started diving between 30
and 40 meters (90-120 feet). I submerge in the deepest point reaching about
35 mts in 2 minutes and then I start diving towards the shore. All this
trip is about 30 minutes. There is no "ascent" as all the dive is in fact
my ascent. How do I operate with deco tables in this case. Which is my time
in bottom? and my ascent rate? What happens if instead of ending in the
shore I end in a point 10 meters (30 feet) deep. What about deco stop in
this case. At soon as I can I will buy a wrist computer but meanwhile I
must deal with the tables. Appreciate any help
>Ive been diving for around one year. I Recently started diving between 30
>and 40 meters (90-120 feet). I submerge in the deepest point reaching about
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>this case. At soon as I can I will buy a wrist computer but meanwhile I
>must deal with the tables. Appreciate any help
This is the situation in which dive computers are most helpful.
Until then...
You must treat the entire dive as if it were at the greatest depth.
Yes, this is probably overly conservative, but it is the only thing
that the tables support.
OR...
There are multi-level algorithms available for some dive tables.
e.g. PADI's "The Wheel". They allow you to calculate the dive
as sevearl different depths. e.g. 10 minutes at 35M; 15 at 25;
and 15 @ 15. (All depths viewed as "not deeper than".) The practicality
of these systems is questionable. It can be difficult to execute your
dive following a rather complex plan.
CAUTION: Don't improvise your own multi-level algorithm! All dive
tables include various assumptions that must be taken into account
when they are used for multi-level diving. These assumptions and
how to account for them are seldom obvious.
SUGGESTION: Borrow a computer with a planning function. Us it to work
out a safe profile for the situation you plan to dive. (See the example
I gave above -- although that is off-the-top-of-my-head and may not
actually be safe!) Then follow that profile. (Work out a profile
for a second dive too, if you wish.)
As you already know, the longer term solution is to buy a dive computer.

Signature
Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA
(hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Lee Bell - 03 Mar 2004 03:35 GMT
>> Ive been diving for around one year. I Recently started diving
>> between 30 and 40 meters (90-120 feet). I submerge in the deepest
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> At soon as I can I will buy a wrist computer but meanwhile I must
>> deal with the tables. Appreciate any help
> SUGGESTION: Borrow a computer with a planning function. Us it to work
> out a safe profile for the situation you plan to dive.
Failing that, give me permission to send you a dive computer simulator and
you can work it out on your own computer.
One of Charley's answers is the traditional one, treat the entire dive like
it is at the maximum depth. At 35 meters, that's going to be a rather short
dive. The other is workable if, and I think it's a big if, you can actually
follow the plan you devise with the help of a borrowed computer or computer
simulator.
Lee
(snip)
> How do I operate with deco tables in this case. Which is my time
> in bottom? and my ascent rate? What happens if instead of ending in the
> shore I end in a point 10 meters (30 feet) deep. What about deco stop in
> this case.
Easy answer:
Goto:
http://www.suunto.com/pls/suunto/suunto2.pubmainpage.frameset
and download Suunto Dive Manager software. (for free!)
Then run a few simulations of the kind of dive you're worried about
and you get all the answers.
> At soon as I can I will buy a wrist computer but (snip)
Yes, that would be a good idea, but running your dive profiles dry is
a very, very safe way to find out how you actually get loaded with
nitrogen and learn how the computer would work for you.
Buying the computer is oly one thenth of the solution.
Understanding what it does is definitely the more important part.
HES van Schoonhoven
Life is a learning experience
Pelaius left this mess on Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:25:21 +0000 (UTC) for The Way to
clean up:
>Ive been diving for around one year. I Recently started diving between 30
>and 40 meters (90-120 feet). I submerge in the deepest point reaching about
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>this case. At soon as I can I will buy a wrist computer but meanwhile I
>must deal with the tables. Appreciate any help
Your bottom time ends when your final ascent begins, ergo, your bottom time is
whatever time you spend at 40m. You are correct that your entire dive then
becomes your ascent, which should be done at the appropriate rate you were
taught, except for the times when you stop at 10m. In those cases, your bottom
time is the time up to your ascent from 10m.
Unfortunately, in tables, you wouldn't get credited for the ascent from 40m to
10m. You'd need to calculate your dive one of two ways. Conservatively, you'd
treat the dive as one dive to 40m.
But, you *could* treat the dive as two dives: one to 40m for however long you
remained down there, zero surface interval, and then another dive to 10m for as
long as you remained there. This would give you a little more dive time without
crediting any surface interval, and would mimic the results you would get on the
PADI wheel. In planning the dive in this way, however, it is absolutely
essential you keep well within the NDL for the "repetitive" dive. You have much
less margin for error, even tho the margins are generous to begin with.
And of course, any dive below 30 feet should be ended with at least one safety
stop at fifteen feet.
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
Michael Wolf - 03 Mar 2004 16:04 GMT
> Pelaius left this mess on Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:25:21 +0000 (UTC) for The Way to
> clean up:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> essential you keep well within the NDL for the "repetitive" dive. You have much
> less margin for error, even tho the margins are generous to begin with.
In which dive are you going to put the time spend on the ascent?
The safest and easiest way would be indeed to consider it simply as a
square profile dive to 40m.

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Michael Wolf
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de Valois - 04 Mar 2004 14:27 GMT
Michael Wolf left this mess on Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:04:28 +0100 for The Way to
clean up:
>In which dive are you going to put the time spend on the ascent?
The definition of bottom time is that time you spend descending to and at your
lowest level, until you begin your final ascent to the surface. In the model I
presented, the split dive model, you wouldn't have to calculate the ascent time,
and since your ascending, you're already offgassing, so while it's not as
conservative as the square profile, it's not much less conservative.
>The safest and easiest way would be indeed to consider it simply as a
>square profile dive to 40m.
Agreed. But my alternative method is safe (not as conservative) and is even
taught. It's basically how the Wheel handles a multi-level dive.
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
Michael Wolf - 04 Mar 2004 16:34 GMT
> Michael Wolf left this mess on Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:04:28 +0100 for The Way to
> clean up:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and since your ascending, you're already offgassing, so while it's not as
> conservative as the square profile, it's not much less conservative.
From what I understood the ascent takes a long time. It's basically a
profile that resembles a lot the shoredives that I'm doing, by which you
slowly follow the slope up, sometimes even staying at the same depth for
a couple of minutes.
That means that the PpN2 levels are higher than what your table takes
into account for a dive at 10m.

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Michael Wolf
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Why settle for the lesser evil?
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de Valois - 05 Mar 2004 15:33 GMT
Michael Wolf left this mess on Thu, 04 Mar 2004 17:34:54 +0100 for The Way to
clean up:
>> Michael Wolf left this mess on Wed, 03 Mar 2004 17:04:28 +0100 for The Way to
>> clean up:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>That means that the PpN2 levels are higher than what your table takes
>into account for a dive at 10m.
Not really. Remember, you're not getting any credit for a surface interval, so
there's no off-gassing to speak of (i.e. your residual nitrogen time would
remain constant from your bottom time at 40m), when as you point out, you'd be
off-gassing on the slow ascent. Your bottom time on your "second" dive would
start at 10m, and assumes the full load of N2 from the 40m depth, without taking
into account the halftime of any fast compartments you may have shed.
It's not as conservative a calculation as a square 40m dive profile, but it's
more conservative than the actual dive profile, in other words. When in doubt,
I'd agree: use the 40m and sacrifice the bottom time for safety's sake.
Tao te Carl
"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003
(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-a.s question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif
H. Huntzinger - 08 Mar 2004 11:52 GMT
> Your bottom time ends when your final ascent begins, ergo,
> your bottom time is whatever time you spend at 40m.
It depends on the Table in question. There's at least one out there
that defines bottom time as surface-descent-depth-ascent. The old
traditional USN Table was surface-descent-depth-(note#1).
> You are correct that your entire dive then becomes your ascent,
> which should be done at the appropriate rate you were taught,
> except for the times when you stop at 10m. In those cases, your
> bottom time is the time up to your ascent from 10m.
Note #1:
The old USN Table had a miscellaneous rule in it that the bottom time
was over after the ascent started, _but_ if the ascent was not at the
ascribed rate (which in those days was 60ft/min), whatever additional
time that it took to get up to 50fsw would be calculated and added to
your bottom time.
For example, a dive to 110fsw at at ascent rate of 60ft/min should take
1 minute to get up to 50fsw. If the diver actually took 3 minutes, then
(3-1 = 2) minutes would be added to his 110fsw bottom time.
Shallower than this thresshold depth, but not shallow enough to be a
recognized deco or safety stop, any additional time was neither debited
nor credited.
> But, you *could* treat the dive as two dives: one to 40m for however long you
> remained down there, zero surface interval, and then another dive to 10m for
> as long as you remained there. This would give you a little more dive time
> without crediting any surface interval, and would mimic the results you would get on
> the PADI wheel.
Way back before dive computers became cheap, there was a rule set for
doing a similar modeling with a standard Table, with the idea of a "Zero
Surface Interval". I don't recall the specifics anymore, but I think it
was that the 2nd (shallower) depth got a 2 group "penalty".
This appears to be a dive with strong multi-level aspects where a dive
computer is quite handy. If there was something really easy/fast/cheap,
I'd suggest listing a few explicit profiles and ask anyone who will
admit to having a PADI wheel to give the sample profiles a spin see what
it says.
-hh