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Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / April 2004storage life of oxygen in steel tank?
Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. Can anyone refer me to some authoritative source on this subject? Answers received so far from those who should know: scuba instructors with oxygen rating (2): don't know/but suggest using nothing older than three or six months staff of oxygen refill station (1): no problem with indefinite storage Achim axethetax >Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage >life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Achim This isn't exactly difinitive, but the US FDA's regulations on medical oxygen are silent with regards to storage life. They do mention the use of high pressure oxygen cylinders as a back-up to cryogenic delivery systems, but say nothing about limiting their shelf life. http://www.fda.gov/cder/guidance/3823dft.pdf I also found nothing on DAN's website suggesting a shelf life for their oxygen cylinders. Alan >>Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage >>life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>staff of oxygen refill station (1): no problem with indefinite storage Local oxygen supplier has a 1 year rating on medical O2; and hydro test date plus one year for welding stuff. (this could be as much as 6 years). I suspect this has as much to do with recirculating tanks within hydro dates. >>Achim > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I also found nothing on DAN's website suggesting a shelf life for their oxygen >cylinders. Clean, sterile O2 on mint condition cylinders (as O2 cylinder have to be) should last for ages. -- mrr > >>Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage > >>life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. As far as I know, pure oxygen will store pretty much forever. I figure the primary risk is to the tank. Some of the oxygen will combine with the metal in the tank, forming rust. The gas remaining in the tank will still be pure oxygen. Loose rust might be a problem for the valve and/or regulator, but I think that's a different issue/question. Visual or, for that matter, hydro inspections aren't much good in this context. They're only required before filling a tank. There's no need to fill one that's stored without being used. I think I'd feel pretty comfortable with as much as 5 years. On the other hand, I'd feel even more comfortable if the tank were aluminum, which my O2 tank is. I'd be more concerned with nitrox or trimix in the same steel tank. I don't know how fast O2 combines with steel to form rust, but, as it does, the mix is bound to change. Lucky for us, there's a solution to this potential, perhaps imagined, risk. Those that use nitrox or trimix, normally check the O2 percentage at the time the tank is filled . . . well, I do. While my process for making contents is pretty rigid, particularly after getting bent by making a mistake of this type, I still check the O2 percentage before taking a tank from my home to the boat. Any tank that does not fall pretty darned close to the same percentage it originally did, isn't going diving with me until it's been inspected and refilled. Lee >On the other hand, I'd feel even more comfortable if the tank were aluminum, >which my O2 tank is. Why? What is different about an aluminum cylinder over a steel one for O2 storage? > Why? What is different about an aluminum cylinder over a steel one for > O2 storage? Steel oxidizes continuously in the presence of oxygen. Aluminum oxidation is a self limiting process. As soon as the surface is coated with aluminum oxide, the process halts. Lee > Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage > life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > axethetax according to BOC three years from date of fill (medical oxygen) https://pgw100.portal.gases.boc.com/scripts/wgate/zcpwp_b2c/!?~login=pgwmedical >> Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage >> life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. >> >> Can anyone refer me to some authoritative source on this subject? .... >according to BOC >three years from date of fill (medical oxygen) >https://pgw100.portal.gases.boc.com/scripts/wgate/zcpwp_b2c/!?~login=pgwmedical Thanks. Couldn't access the page myself for some reason (full URL produced "page not found", clicking on any of the three country sites produced a blank page), but will take your word for it. Achim axethetax > Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage > life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > don't know/but suggest using nothing older than three or six months Pure, typical BS. > staff of oxygen refill station (1): no problem with indefinite storage More like it. The issue that the Chicken Little types have come up with is that the O2 is slowly degraded due to oxidation of the steel container. A little thought would provide the answer. Scott > > Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage > > life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Scott Oxidation of tanks equals rust. yah, so when the tanks blow and you see the hole you know not to use the oxy. until then, the rust simply sits on the bottom of the tank to be picked up on the next visual. rhys > > > Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage > > > life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > hole you know not to use the oxy. until then, the rust simply sits on the > bottom of the tank to be picked up on the next visual. That's true but there would have to be moisture in the tank and that is very rare in (medical) O2 tanks. Perhaps whoever was concerned about this has heard the tale of the mythical air tank that had no O2 in it because of rust. It's a possibility and would prove fatal if used (But a good way to die since you would be purging CO2) If the same happened in an O2 tank it would take a lot longer but you could still use the remaining O2. It's a non issue for 99% of the users of oxygen as it rarely sits around very long. > > Oxidation of tanks equals rust. yah, so when the tanks blow and you see > >the hole you know not to use the oxy. until then, the rust simply sits on the > > bottom of the tank to be picked up on the next visual. > That's true but there would have to be moisture in the tank and that is very > rare in (medical) O2 tanks. Perhaps whoever was concerned about this has heard the tale of the mythical > air tank that had no O2 in it because of rust. It's a possibility . . . I would expect the tank to rupture before it got to that point. With O2, even if it did happen this way, the problem would be hard to ignore since O2 that had combined with the metal would no longer be a gas and the pressure guage would show the tank to be empty. > It's a non issue for 99% of the users of oxygen as it rarely sits around very long. Actually, it's a non issue for all of them, or, more correctly, the same issue for all of them. Fill your tank today and purge and refill it in three months, it's still full of oxygen and still oxidizing. Lee .... >> > > Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage >> > > life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. ... >Perhaps whoever was concerned about this has heard the tale of the mythical >air tank that had no O2 in it because of rust. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >It's a non issue for 99% of the users of oxygen as it rarely sits around >very long. Just checked my records, and find I've been storing this one for over five years. The pressure gauge reads 1800 psi. Achim axethetax > Just checked my records, and find I've been storing this one for over > five years. The pressure gauge reads 1800 psi. So it has been slowly leaking. Analyze the gas. If I was the one who bought it originally, and I know it has been sitting there for 5 years, and it still has 1800 psi in it, I would use it. Or, err to the side of prudence, dump it and blow another $25 and get a fresh bottle. Scott >> Just checked my records, and find I've been storing this [oxygen] >>for over five years. The pressure gauge reads 1800 psi. > >Analyze the gas. ... What do you think it may have turned into?  SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. > What do you think it may have turned into? This is a joke, right? >> What do you think it may have turned into? > >This is a joke, right? No -- Althoug perhaps it was rhetorical. The suggestion was to analyze the O2 in a steel cylinder after some period of time. My question was serious -- what other gas would you expect to find? Unless some other gas or contaminant is introduced into the cylinder, I would expect that only oxygen would be present. Am I missing something? SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. I agree. Some O2 may be consumed oxidizing the tank, but there won't be any gas but O2 in the tank. SignatureChuck Tribolet triblet@garlic.com http://www.almaden.ibm.com/cs/people/triblet Silicon Valley: STILL the best day job in the world. > >> What do you think it may have turned into? > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Am I missing something? > >> What do you think it may have turned into? > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Am I missing something? I don't mix or dive gas that I haven't analyzed. I once got a bottle of He that was 19% O2. I also once got a bottle of ABO that read 78%. Scott >> Just checked my records, and find I've been storing this one for over >> five years. The pressure gauge reads 1800 psi. > >So it has been slowly leaking. Not necessarily. I dimly recall being miffed that it wasn't properly topped up when I got it, and I may have wasted a bit monkeying with the regulator and mask. The pressure gauge may also be off, given it's rather old (sold to me as surplus by the oxygen supply firm) and reads to 5000 PSI. >Analyze the gas. If I was the one who bought it originally, and I know it >has been sitting there for 5 years, and it still has >1800 psi in it, I would use it. That's my inclination too. >Or, err to the side of prudence, dump it and blow another $25 and get a >fresh bottle. If I could do it for $25, I'd gladly get it refilled, if only to get the full capacity of 2200 PSI. Unfortunately, there are some obstacles: 1. the bottle was last hydroed (and plussed) in 1990, so it would need a new hydro, and 2. I've been told you can't buy Oxygen anymore in Canada without a medical prescription. So I guess I'll make do with what I've got. Achim axethetax > 2. I've been told you can't buy Oxygen anymore in Canada without a > medical prescription. > So I guess I'll make do with what I've got. So, welders have to be doctors? OK, so doctors use O2. So do aviators and so do welders. Neither needs a prescription. Lee > > 2. I've been told you can't buy Oxygen anymore in Canada without a > > medical prescription. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So, welders have to be doctors? OK, so doctors use O2. So do aviators and > so do welders. Neither needs a prescription. True enough but if you walk into most wielding shops in the USA today with a little green bottle and that stupid valve they will tell you they don't fill medical O2 and that you should go to a medical supply shop. Chances are they fill big bottles for that supply house. The reason is the amount of paperwork required. > True enough but if you walk into most wielding shops in the USA today with a > little green bottle and that stupid valve they will tell you they don't fill > medical O2 and that you should go to a medical supply shop. > Chances are they fill big bottles for that supply house. > The reason is the amount of paperwork required. You can run into the same thing walking into anyplace with one of those green bottles. Luckily, that's not the only way O2 is stored. I have medical O2 for my boat . . . oops, I have a scuba tank full of breathing air that won't ever be used except by somebody that thinks he needs it for medical reasons. It's in a scuba tank, labeled O2 and has an O2 clean scuba regulator, which means it's not much good for anybody who is not conscious. I was simply responding to the "you can't buy" topic, not the issue of what kind of bottle requires what kind of paperwork. Lee > That's my inclination too. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 2. I've been told you can't buy Oxygen anymore in Canada without a > medical prescription. The difference between medical O2 and industrial O2 is the paperwork. If you can find a shop that mixes gas or an industrial shop that uses it and has the filler that's the cheap way to go. The other way is to find a Doc who will issue the prescription. Just whisper when you go up to the desk.... I had a radiologist friend who dove and would occasionally go by his office. I'd say I was there to see him about diving and would be immediately taken to his work area. When I'd leave 20 - 30 minutes later the same people would be sitting there and glaring. (Not that he stopped reading X-rays while we talked but they didn't know that.) > >> Just checked my records, and find I've been storing this one for over > >> five years. The pressure gauge reads 1800 psi. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > So I guess I'll make do with what I've got. Use welding gas. It all comes from the same bottle. > 2. I've been told you can't buy Oxygen anymore in Canada without a > medical prescription. You've been told wrong. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscubaventures.com >> 2. I've been told you can't buy Oxygen anymore in Canada without a >> medical prescription. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Edmonton, Alberta >www.mossmanscubaventures.com Hmm. What's the world coming to when you can't trust a dive shop owner? (same one who suggested a 3-6 month limit to storage). BTW - you wouldn't know how I can get a copy of the Transport Canada report on the tank explosion at Waterton a decade or so ago? I've heard two very contradictory accounts, and would like to know the real story. I still use a First stage modified by the fellow who was blown apart. Achim axethetax > Hmm. What's the world coming to when you can't trust a dive shop > owner? (same one who suggested a 3-6 month limit to storage). I would suggest to find a new shop. > BTW - you wouldn't know how I can get a copy of the Transport Canada > report on the tank explosion at Waterton a decade or so ago? I've > heard two very contradictory accounts, and would like to know the real > story. I don't know where the official report is. I'm not sure what 2 stories you heard because I've only ever heard the one where basically the tank had the burst disk monkeyed with and the compressor had its' overpressure relief mechanism compromised in some way and the operation was left unattended during the filling process. I heard this when it first happened and then again a few years later when I used to work for a guy who did the examination on the compressor for the inquiry. You could ask Daryl Cyr from DaSilva Travel for exactly what happened. >I still use a First stage modified by the fellow who was blown apart. Given his record with modifications, I doubt I would be using that particular piece of kit. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscubaventures.com ... >> BTW - you wouldn't know how I can get a copy of the Transport Canada >> report on the tank explosion at Waterton a decade or so ago? I've [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >first happened and then again a few years later when I used to work for >a guy who did the examination on the compressor for the inquiry. When I first heard the story, it was that someone else had started filling the tank and left it unattended. The casualty then surfaced from a dive, heard the compressor screaming, and rushed ashore to turn it off just in time to have the tank blow up in his face. In that account, the tank was aluminum. Later accounts referred to double burst discs or the wrong type burst disc in a steel tank. I recently asked Darrin Barker at Aquasport in Calgary about it, and his response was essentially that he knew all the details, that the victim got a bad rap, and that I had no need to know more - "don't worry, be happy" .... I, on the other hand, now worry whether its possible for a technician (like Darrin,say, who sold me a used steel tank not so long ago) to accidentally put the wrong burst disc in my tank valve. I mostly get my air fills from the local volunteer fire departments. I've seen some major lapses of attention at the fill gauge, and they don't always let me stand by to keep an eye on things. In any case, I'm baffled because from my admittedly limited reading on the subject, I didn't think a portable compressor could generate enough pressure to rupture a sound tank, steel or aluminum, especially at altitude. So I'm still wondering: 1. was the tank aluminum or steel? 2. did it have a current hydro? 3. was it corroded or dented? 4. where did it burst? 5. what burst disc(s) was/were in it? 6. what model compressor was used? 7. what pressure did it reach/what pressure was the compressor capable of at that altitude? > You >could ask Daryl Cyr from DaSilva Travel for exactly what happened. Why is it so difficult to get the text of the official Transport Canada report, or at least a summary? >>I still use a First stage modified by the fellow who was blown apart. > >Given his record with modifications, I doubt I would be using that >particular piece of kit. Oops! Its an old Voit Titan II, and I just had it serviced by Darrin. Got it done in a rush for a recent trip to Cuba, and still haven't gotten around to asking him why he removed the reserve lever. It's mighty handy if your SPG fails. Achim axethetax > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:21:37 GMT, Brian Nadwidny <nadwidny@excite.com> > > I recently asked Darrin Barker at Aquasport in Calgary about it, and > his response was essentially that he knew all the details, that the > victim got a bad rap, and that I had no need to know more - "don't > worry, be happy" .... If it's really important to you, the guy to talk to is Jack Madro from Subsea in Edmonton. He did the equipment investigation. Or like I said Darryl Cyr from DaSilva (he was there and was injured in the incident). Was Darrin even diving back then? > In any case, I'm baffled because from my admittedly limited reading on > the subject, I didn't think a portable compressor could generate [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 1. was the tank aluminum or steel? Steel > 2. did it have a current hydro? Don't know. > 3. was it corroded or dented? Don't recall anyone saying that it was. > 4. where did it burst? Split open down the side IIRC. > 5. what burst disc(s) was/were in it? Double disked (again IIRC) > 6. what model compressor was used? Don't know > 7. what pressure did it reach/what pressure was the compressor capable > of at that altitude? What would altitude have to do with anything? Also I believe the estimate for when the thing blew was around 7500psi. > Why is it so difficult to get the text of the official Transport > Canada report, or at least a summary? Personally I've never tried so I don't know. You'd have to ask them. > Its an old Voit Titan II, and I just had it serviced by Darrin. Got it > done in a rush for a recent trip to Cuba, and still haven't gotten > around to asking him why he removed the reserve lever. It's mighty > handy if your SPG fails. A reserve lever on a 1st stage? Interesting. Never seen a beast like it. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscubaventures.com >If it's really important to you, the guy to talk to is Jack Madro from >Subsea in Edmonton. He did the equipment investigation. Or like I said >Darryl Cyr from DaSilva (he was there and was injured in the incident). Thanks, will see if I can contact them. ... >> So I'm still wondering: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >What would altitude have to do with anything? Also I believe the >estimate for when the thing blew was around 7500psi. Whew! I had the impression portable compressors had to struggle just to fill to 3500psi. Have several times seen this given as a reason for not buying high pressure steel tanks. I assumed the lower ambient pressure at altitude would make this task significantly more difficult. Thanks very much for these details. They're fairly reassuring compared to what I'd imagined. .... >> Its an old Voit Titan II, and I just had it serviced by Darrin. Got it >> done in a rush for a recent trip to Cuba, and still haven't gotten >> around to asking him why he removed the reserve lever. It's mighty >> handy if your SPG fails. > >A reserve lever on a 1st stage? Interesting. Never seen a beast like it. The lever takes up one side of the first stage, so there's only a single LP port, on the other side. This is probably why I was able to pick it up cheap at a U of Calgary equipment swap twenty years ago. This is also why I had to get a one-inch brass extension adapter for the port, so I could fit a three-way connector for the two second stages and the inflation hose. The LP extensions just barely clear the knobs on my tank valves. The 1973 edition of "Dive: the complete book of skin diving", by Rick and Barbara Carrier, shows two similar 1st stages, the Aqualung Navy Unit, and the Healthways Scubair "J". The "Complete Guide to Snorkeling and Skin Diving", by Al Thompson, 1980, shows yet another Aqualung 1st stage with a reserve valve, so I guess they were on the market for a while. BTW - have you come across any adapters that allow you to attach two yoke-style first stages to a single tank? These adapters are readily available in Germany, but only for DIN-type connectors. Achim axethetax > BTW - have you come across any adapters that allow you to attach two > yoke-style first stages to a single tank? Nope, never ran across one. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscubaventures.com > > BTW - have you come across any adapters that allow you to attach two > > yoke-style first stages to a single tank? > > Nope, never ran across one. I would expect that a Y valve in 232 bar, i.e. with the A clamp slugs, would do the trick. I assume they're around. Curtis? Lee >BTW - have you come across any adapters that allow you to attach two >yoke-style first stages to a single tank? > >These adapters are readily available in Germany, but only for DIN-type >connectors. Scubapro sells a DIN H-valve that you can screw yoke adapters into. >>BTW - have you come across any adapters that allow you to attach two >>yoke-style first stages to a single tank? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Scubapro sells a DIN H-valve that you can screw yoke adapters into. I'm looking for an adapter I can attach to filled tanks, so I can use it on rental tanks as well as switching it between my own. I haven't seen an H-Valve, but I'm assuming it screws directly into the scuba tank like a Y-valve? Achim axethetax > I'm looking for an adapter I can attach to filled tanks, so I can use > it on rental tanks as well as switching it between my own. What you're looking for probably isn't available (outside of Germany) because it sounds like a huge CF that no manufacturer would touch with a 10 foot lawyer. > I haven't seen an H-Valve, but I'm assuming it screws directly into > the scuba tank like a Y-valve? Yes Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscubaventures.com > > I haven't seen an H-Valve, but I'm assuming it screws directly into > > the scuba tank like a Y-valve? Before the nitpickers get their panties in a knot, upon further reflection I guess the more precise answer is "No". An "H" valve screws into a somewhat specialized tank valve that has an side port on it for things like H valves and manifolds or this port can be blanked off. Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscubaventures.com > Hmm. What's the world coming to when you can't trust a dive shop > owner? (same one who suggested a 3-6 month limit to storage). The one who wants to sell you overpriced sh.t gear, fills and 02 cleaning? Do you know how to tell that the guy is lying? It's when his lips are moving. > The issue that the Chicken Little types have come up with is that the O2 is > slowly degraded due to oxidation of the steel container. Which is a problem only if the filtration system is not capable of removing rust. Lee Achim Nolcken Lohse schrieb: > Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe > storage life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. > > Can anyone refer me to some authoritative source on this subject? > Answers received so far from those who should know: Hello Achim! This is no hard data but anyway: Here in Germany the government stores some thousands of O2-tanks for decades (for defence purposes or similar use i guess). Since our government is very very much "on the safe side" (or at least tries to be...) with (almost) everthing they do, I guess there should be no problem at all with the O2 inside... Me myself I have a O2-tank and O2-regulator I carry when going diving just in case anything bad happens and I can help myself or other divers ´till the ambulance arrives . It was last filled in 1968 (!) and still the O2 in it is in perfect condition (I had it checked by a friend working in a hospital - it even now still complied the german hospital standards...) Just my personal two cents... 8)) HTH Jörg SignatureIch glaube jedem, der die Wahrheit sucht. Ich glaube niemandem, der sie gefunden hat. (Tucholsky) On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:34:51 +0100, "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F6rg_K=FChnel?=" <news@easydiver.de> wrote: >Achim Nolcken Lohse schrieb: > >> Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe >> storage life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. ... >Hello Achim! > >This is no hard data but anyway: > >Here in Germany the government stores >some thousands of O2-tanks for decades ... >Me myself I have a O2-tank and O2-regulator I carry when going diving >just in case anything bad happens and I can help myself or other divers >?till the ambulance arrives . >It was last filled in 1968 (!) and still the O2 in it is in perfect condition ... Thanks Joerg, that's reassuring information. Achim axethetax >Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage >life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >axethetax I can't say in US but in Canada. If it's for life support one year. (WCB) If it part of fire fighting system in a plant lets say it has to be checked monthly and vip / gas changed yearly. It needs to be vip'd once a year any way and hydro'd once every 5 years. T >>Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage >>life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >It needs to be vip'd once a year any way and hydro'd once every 5 >years. Interesting. Something like the inert pharmaceutical products that have to be turfed out after two years. When did the 5-year hydro requirement come into effect? When my bottle was filled in 98, it was already out of hydro for 8 years. It seems to me that at one time steel oxygen cylinders only required hydroing every ten years. Achim axethetax >Have been trying without success to find hard data on the safe storage >life of oxygen in a steel tanks at 2,015PSI. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >staff of oxygen refill station (1): no problem with indefinite storage Commercial tanks of O2 have an "expiration" date - typically four years or so in the future! -- SignatureKarl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist http://www.denninger.net Tired of spam at your company? LOOK HERE! http://childrens-justice.org Working for family and children's rights http://diversunion.org LOG IN AND GET YOUR TANK STICKERS TODAY! |
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