Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / December 2005
Southern Hemisphere Compass - Worth it?
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mag3 - 04 Dec 2005 13:50 GMT Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently picked up a PADI "Peak Performance Boyancy" Specialty rating. Will now proceed to get PADI Advanced Open Water in early January, 2006.
I just purchased most of my major hardware (Suits, Regulator, Octo, BCD etc.), all pretty much Oceanic products (no, I don't have stock in the company). ;-) For the computer, I selected the Datamax Pro Plus 2 with attached compass.
Which leads me to my question. Oceanic also makes (as an option) a "Southern Hemisphere" version of the compass head for that computer. Since I do intend to return to Bora Bora perhaps as often as once a year, (I'm New York based), is it worth buying the Southern Hemisphere head?
I'm not sure it's worth the money for using it just once a year at most, and it's not like it's easy to switch the two heads - it does require a little surgery. I could of course, just use it stand alone, but it gets awkward to use it that way when you're trying to hold onto the computer itself. So if the "northern hemisphere" compass is totally useless down there, I might buy it for there and for the GBR in Australia.
Worth the expense/trouble?
Thanks very much for your help.
____________________________________________ Regards,
Arnold
Dan Bracuk - 04 Dec 2005 14:14 GMT mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified :in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] : :Worth the expense/trouble? Welcome to rec.scuba.equipment and to diving, Arnold.
I don't think it's worth the expense and trouble to get the Southern Hemisphere head for your compass. In fact, for the most part, I simply do not think compasses are necessary for diving. In tropical waters, the visibility and underwater topography (bottomography?) makes dead reckoning navigation reasonably simple.
Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
bob crownfield - 04 Dec 2005 15:57 GMT > mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> Welcome to rec.scuba.equipment and to diving, Arnold. > > I don't think it's worth the expense and trouble to get the Southern > Hemisphere head for your compass. northern compass? Australian compass?
the only difference seems to be the claim that the needle dips and is not dead level in different areas of the world. just try dipping the compass so the needle floats freely, and it should work.
do you think that the navy carefully changes compasses every time they cross the equator?
use the same compass anywhere you go.
mine works perfectly anywhere in the world I dive. east west north south, never a problem.
someone is trying to sell you two compasses that do the same thing.
Alan Street - 04 Dec 2005 17:40 GMT > Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified > in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Worth the expense/trouble? Probably not for a once a year trip, but there are differences in compasses intended for different parts of the globe. Here's a link that covers the topic pretty well:
http://www.geocities.com/magnetic_declination/
Most dive compasses are very sensitivie to declination, and one intended for North America will be severely tilted if you use it in Australia. I have a compass I bought in Thailand (Suunto) that is almost unusable in San Diego because the card tilts and rubs against the case.
Having said that, I'd buy a compass for your console that suits the majority of your diving, and just rent/borrow a wrist mounted compass for those times you travel to Bora Bora.
And to answer Crownfield's uninformed (gee, what a suprise) comment, large ships used to deal with declination by having compasses that could accomodate card tilt. Today, they're more likely to use fluxgate (electronic) compasses that aren't affected by declination.
> Thanks very much for your help. > > ____________________________________________ > Regards, > > Arnold zippthorne - 04 Dec 2005 21:40 GMT I think you are confusing two different issues.
1) the dipole field of the earth is not coaxial with the earth's axis of revolution. The difference between magnetic north and true (celestial) north is known as declination. You can correct this anywhere in the world by placing a mark on the compass to indicate the difference.
2) the earth's magnetic field is best approxmiated as a dipole, especially close to the surface. The orientation of the field lines at any given point on the surface of the earth is not necessarily parallel to the surface. At the magnetic north pole, they will be almost vertical whereas at the equator, they will be roughly parallel. The compass needle will tend to align with the fieldlines, even if constrained to a particular plane. The compass would be most effective if it is allowed to align three dimensionally to the dipole field. I suspect based on other posts that the "southern hemisphere" compasses are designed with this in mind by being magnetized such that the part you read is flat relative to the surface while magnetically pointing slightly downward.
James Connell - 05 Dec 2005 01:48 GMT > I think you are confusing two different issues. Please! don't interupt the two fools. They haven't even figured out the difference between DECLINATION and INCLINATION yet.
Alan Street - 05 Dec 2005 02:08 GMT > > I think you are confusing two different issues. > > Please! don't interupt the two fools. They haven't even figured out the > difference between DECLINATION and INCLINATION yet. Oops :-)
bob crownfield - 05 Dec 2005 00:43 GMT > € Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified > € in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > large ships used to deal with declination by having compasses that > could accomodate card tilt. alan may not yet have noticed, as most divers have, but a hand held compass 'could accomodate card tilt' easily.
> Today, they're more likely to use fluxgate > (electronic) compasses that aren't affected by declination. (I have done flight simulation for aircraft, and they have been using fluxgates for more than half a century now. big news.)
both of which use gymboled mounts. obviously the needle points to the magnetic pole, which is not always tangent to the earths surface.
maybe your compass has a problem, but mine works from Boston harbor to the barrier reef with no big problems. any one with any diving ability just adjusts the compass so the needle moves freely. east, west, north, south, deep, shallow, cold, warm, clear, low vis: not a problem.
are you a barking moonbat alan? or just a mentally challenged diver?
this I would have expected from JOF.
> € Thanks very much for your help. > € [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > € > € Arnold Alan Street - 05 Dec 2005 01:20 GMT > > > Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified > > > in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > alan may not yet have noticed, as most divers have, > but a hand held compass 'could accomodate card tilt' easily. Yes, you can accomodate it, but it's akward. There's a reason Suunto sells different compasses for different zones. There's also a reason Suunto bothered to invent and patent a compass that isn't as susceptable to declination (US patent 5,560,114 if you're interested).
> > Today, they're more likely to use fluxgate > > (electronic) compasses that aren't affected by declination. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > obviously the needle points to the magnetic pole, which is not always > tangent to the earths surface. So if you knew how large ships deal with declination, why did you imply that they ignored the phenomenon?
> maybe your compass has a problem, but mine works from Boston harbor to > the barrier reef with no big problems. any one with any diving ability > just adjusts the compass so the needle moves freely. east, west, north, > south, deep, shallow, cold, warm, clear, low vis: not a problem. There's nothing wrong with my compass (Suunto SK-7). It's a great compass, but personally I don't like tilting my arm 20~30 degrees to get the compass card to move freely. It works great around the equator, but not so great in North America.
> are you a barking moonbat alan? No. Are you?
> or just a mentally challenged diver? Also no. Just one who pays attention to the way things work.
> this I would have expected from JOF. Why?
> > > Thanks very much for your help. > > > > > > ____________________________________________ > > > Regards, > > > > > > Arnold David Gintz - 06 Dec 2005 23:52 GMT Why does it matter where the compass is pointing? It would seem that unless you were trying to get to a certain place on a certain heading, it wouldn't matter if the compass was off at all.
If you are using it to figure out how to get back to where you started from, you'd simply reverse course (or adjust for that). It seems to me that if you start out going North (according to your compass) and it really isn't North, reversing course and going (according to the compass) South would work regardless of what "North" or "South" really were.
Or am I missing something?
Alan Street - 07 Dec 2005 00:02 GMT > Why does it matter where the compass is pointing? It would seem that unless > you were trying to get to a certain place on a certain heading, it wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Or am I missing something? Somewhat. I was using the wrong term. Declination is the difference between true north and magnetic north, and you're right, it doesn't generally matter for diving if you just use relative out and back headings.
Inclination, or dip, is what causes the compass card to tilt as you move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in heading, but it can prevent the compass card from spinning freely.
David Gintz - 07 Dec 2005 00:27 GMT > Inclination, or dip, is what causes the compass card to tilt as you > move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in > heading, but it can prevent the compass card from spinning freely. Once again, I may be showing my ignorance but how is that dip any different from what I could cause by holding the compass in a non-level orientation? In that case, I just level it myself. Isn't that the solution in this case? I could see a problem if the compass was mounted in a fixed position on a ship but it ain't too stable on my console anyways!
Alan Street - 10 Dec 2005 16:21 GMT > > Inclination, or dip, is what causes the compass card to tilt as you > > move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I could see a problem if the compass was mounted in a fixed position on a > ship but it ain't too stable on my console anyways! You would think so, but I have a wrist mounted compass that's a real pain in the a.s to use outside of it's intended zone. Yes, I can hold my arm tilted ~20 degrees, but if you're swimming in really poor viz and using the compass continuously for navigation, it's gets to be a pain pretty quickly.
Dan Bracuk - 10 Dec 2005 17:16 GMT Alan Street <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:but if you're swimming in really poor viz :and using the compass continuously for navigation, it's gets to be a :pain pretty quickly. I solve that problem by simply not diving in really bad viz.
Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
-hh - 10 Dec 2005 23:53 GMT > Alan Street <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I solve that problem by simply not diving in really bad viz. In some conditions, it can be pretty easy to get 'turned around' and lose your natural orientation, even if you have good viz.
One example is if you're photographing a turtle, as their natural instinct is to respond to what they perceive as a predator by swimming a curved route around the 'threat', and the net result (and photo technique) is that the UW photographer can do a small circle while the turtle swims larger circles around him. After 2, 3, 4, ... 6 circles, you may find that whatever natural navigation bearings you had, particularly if its a reef that you're not previously familiar with, are trashed. And of course, your buddy is named Murphy, and he was following you instead of paying any attention to navigation.
In any event, difficulties in needle float due to Inclination variations can alternatively be addressed by not mounting the compass on your wrist.
-hh
Alan Street - 11 Dec 2005 00:00 GMT > > Alan Street <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard > > resulting in: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > -hh It's a DIR thing ;-)
-hh - 11 Dec 2005 00:12 GMT > It's a DIR thing ;-) Yup, one that makes you unnecessarily buy more gear than you really need. Film at 11.
-hh
Dan Bracuk - 11 Dec 2005 03:51 GMT "-hh" <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:One example is if you're photographing a turtle, as their natural :instinct is to respond to what they perceive as a predator by swimming [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] :are trashed. And of course, your buddy is named Murphy, and he was :following you instead of paying any attention to navigation. If you were doing dead reakoning nav on the way to the turtle, the compass now has no use whatsoever. No sense carrying it.
But, since you mentioned turtles, you have your observations andI have mine. Every turtle I have seen that appeared threatened just straightlined the heck outta there.
Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
-hh - 12 Dec 2005 01:08 GMT > But, since you mentioned turtles, you have your observations andI have > mine. Every turtle I have seen that appeared threatened just > straightlined the heck outta there. IIRC, you've done some diving in Cozumel ... was this there, or elsewhere?
FWIW, sometimes it seems that turtles will be jumpy and easily spooked - and sometimes, there's a reason why: they caught a couple of illegal turtle poachers on Cayman Brac this fall.
-hh
chilly - 14 Dec 2005 10:23 GMT > > But, since you mentioned turtles, you have your observations andI have > > mine. Every turtle I have seen that appeared threatened just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > - and sometimes, there's a reason why: they caught a couple of illegal > turtle poachers on Cayman Brac this fall. I too have noticed that they'll do a bit of a turn and then they take off. I even had one come along to swim with me. We hung out for a while. He kept reaching over to take a bite of something, whether it was my hair or my reg hoses, I dunno. I never did let him get quite close enough to find out what he was after. (Belize)
I had another one coming straight for me and I held as still as I could to see how close it would get. Unfortunately, some other clown got ansty and made a ruckus, which scared it away.(Belize in mating season)
In Sipadan, they didn't seem to mind us at all and we could get very close to them. There were so many of them, that eventually, we started to look past them to see what else we could see.
> -hh Dan Bracuk - 19 Dec 2005 02:17 GMT "-hh" <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in:
:IIRC, you've done some diving in Cozumel ... was this there, or :elsewhere? Last week in Little Cayman, they sort of hung around until they were sick and tired of the flashes and then they swam away. In a straight line more or less.
I'll have pictures ready for public viewing soon.
Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Popeye - 10 Dec 2005 01:52 GMT > ? Why does it matter where the compass is pointing? It would seem that > unless [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in > heading, but it can prevent the compass card from spinning freely. Earth's Magnetic Pole Drifting Quickly
By ALICIA CHANG AP Science Writer Dec 09 7:28 PM US/Eastern
SAN FRANCISCO - Earth's north magnetic pole is drifting away from North America and toward Siberia at such a clip that Alaska might lose its spectacular Northern Lights in the next 50 years, scientists said Thursday. Despite accelerated movement over the past century, the possibility that Earth's modestly fading magnetic field will collapse is remote. But the shift could mean Alaska may no longer see the sky lights known as auroras, which might then be more visible in more southerly areas of Siberia and Europe.
The magnetic poles are part of the magnetic field generated by liquid iron in Earth's core and are different from the geographic poles, the surface points marking the axis of the planet's rotation. ADVERTISEMENT
Scientists have long known that magnetic poles migrate and in rare cases, swap places. Exactly why this happens is a mystery.
"This may be part of a normal oscillation and it will eventually migrate back toward Canada," Joseph Stoner, a paleomagnetist at Oregon State University, said Thursday at an American Geophysical Union meeting.
Previous studies have shown that the strength of the Earth's magnetic shield has decreased 10 percent over the past 150 years. During the same period, the north magnetic pole wandered about 685 miles out into the Arctic, according to a new analysis by Stoner.
The rate of the magnetic pole's movement has increased in the last century compared to fairly steady movement in the previous four centuries, the Oregon researchers said.
At the present rate, the north magnetic pole could swing out of northern Canada into Siberia. If that happens, Alaska could lose its Northern Lights, which occur when charged particles streaming away from the sun interact with different gases in Earth's atmosphere.
The north magnetic pole was first discovered in 1831 and when it was revisited in 1904, explorers found that the pole had moved 31 miles.
For centuries, navigators using compasses had to learn to deal with the difference between magnetic and geographic north. A compass needle points to the north magnetic pole, not the geographic North Pole. For example, a compass reading of north in Oregon is about 17 degrees east of geographic north.
In the study, Stoner examined the sediment record from several Arctic lakes. Since the sediments record the Earth's magnetic field at the time, scientists used carbon dating to track changes in the magnetic field.
They found that the north magnetic field shifted significantly in the last thousand years. It generally migrated between northern Canada and Siberia, but it sometimes moved in other directions, too.
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On the Net:
American Geophysical Union: http://www.agu.org
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