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Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / December 2005

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Southern Hemisphere Compass - Worth it?

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mag3 - 04 Dec 2005 13:50 GMT
Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified
in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently
picked up a PADI "Peak Performance Boyancy" Specialty rating. Will now
proceed to get PADI Advanced Open Water in early January, 2006.

I just purchased most of my major hardware (Suits, Regulator, Octo, BCD
etc.), all pretty much Oceanic products (no, I don't have stock in the
company). ;-) For the computer, I selected the Datamax Pro Plus 2 with
attached compass.

Which leads me to my question. Oceanic also makes (as an option) a
"Southern Hemisphere" version of the compass head for that computer.
Since I do intend to return to Bora Bora perhaps as often as once a year,
(I'm New York based), is it worth buying the Southern Hemisphere head?

I'm not sure it's worth the money for using it just once a year at most, and
it's not like it's easy to switch the two heads - it does require a little surgery.
I could of course, just use it stand alone, but it gets awkward to use it that
way when you're trying to hold onto the computer itself.  So if the "northern
hemisphere" compass is totally useless down there, I might buy it for there
and for the GBR in Australia.

Worth the expense/trouble?

Thanks  very much for your help.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
Dan Bracuk - 04 Dec 2005 14:14 GMT
mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified
:in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
:
:Worth the expense/trouble?

Welcome to rec.scuba.equipment and to diving, Arnold.

I don't think it's worth the expense and trouble to get the Southern
Hemisphere head for your compass.  In fact, for the most part, I
simply do not think compasses are necessary for diving.  In tropical
waters, the visibility and underwater topography (bottomography?)
makes dead reckoning navigation reasonably simple.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
bob crownfield - 04 Dec 2005 15:57 GMT
> mag3 <zmpmag3-plongee@yahoo.com> pounded away at his keyboard

> Welcome to rec.scuba.equipment and to diving, Arnold.
>
> I don't think it's worth the expense and trouble to get the Southern
> Hemisphere head for your compass.  

northern compass? Australian compass?

the only difference seems to be the claim that the needle dips
and is not dead level in different areas of the world.
just try dipping the compass so the needle floats freely,
and it should work.

do you think that the navy carefully changes compasses
every time they cross the equator?

use the same compass anywhere you go.

mine works perfectly anywhere in the world I dive.
east west north south, never a problem.

someone is trying to sell you two compasses
that do the same thing.
Alan Street - 04 Dec 2005 17:40 GMT
> Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified
> in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Worth the expense/trouble?

Probably not for a once a year trip, but there are differences in
compasses intended for different parts of the globe. Here's a link that
covers the topic pretty well:

http://www.geocities.com/magnetic_declination/

Most dive compasses are very sensitivie to declination, and one
intended for North America will be severely tilted if you use it in
Australia. I have a compass I bought in Thailand (Suunto) that is
almost unusable in San Diego because the card tilts and rubs against
the case.

Having said that, I'd buy a compass for your console that suits the
majority of your diving, and just rent/borrow a wrist mounted compass
for those times you travel to Bora Bora.

And to answer Crownfield's uninformed (gee, what a suprise) comment,
large ships used to deal with declination by having compasses that
could accomodate card tilt. Today, they're more likely to use fluxgate
(electronic) compasses that aren't affected by declination.

> Thanks  very much for your help.
>
> ____________________________________________
> Regards,
>
> Arnold
zippthorne - 04 Dec 2005 21:40 GMT
I think you are confusing two different issues.

1) the dipole field of the earth is not coaxial with the earth's axis of
revolution.  The difference between magnetic north and true (celestial)
north is known as declination.  You can correct this anywhere in the
world by placing a mark on the compass to indicate the difference.

2) the earth's magnetic field is best approxmiated as a dipole,
especially close to the surface.  The orientation of the field lines at
any given point on the surface of the earth is not necessarily parallel
to the surface.  At the magnetic north pole, they will be almost
vertical whereas at the equator, they will be roughly parallel.  The
compass needle will tend to align with the fieldlines, even if
constrained to a particular plane.  The compass would be most effective
if it is allowed to align three dimensionally to the dipole field. I
suspect based on other posts that the "southern hemisphere" compasses
are designed with this in mind by being magnetized such that the part
you read is flat relative to the surface while magnetically pointing
slightly downward.
James Connell - 05 Dec 2005 01:48 GMT
> I think you are confusing two different issues.

Please! don't interupt the two fools. They haven't even figured out the
difference between DECLINATION and INCLINATION yet.
Alan Street - 05 Dec 2005 02:08 GMT
> > I think you are confusing two different issues.
>
> Please! don't interupt the two fools. They haven't even figured out the
> difference between DECLINATION and INCLINATION yet.

Oops :-)
bob crownfield - 05 Dec 2005 00:43 GMT
> € Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified
> € in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> large ships used to deal with declination by having compasses that
> could accomodate card tilt.

alan may not yet have noticed, as most divers have,
but a hand held compass 'could accomodate card tilt' easily.

> Today, they're more likely to use fluxgate
> (electronic) compasses that aren't affected by declination.

(I have done flight simulation for aircraft, and they have been using
fluxgates for more than half a century now. big news.)

both of which use gymboled  mounts.
obviously the needle points to the magnetic pole, which is not always
tangent to the earths surface.

maybe your compass has a problem, but mine works from Boston harbor to
the barrier reef with no big problems. any one with any diving ability
just adjusts the compass so the needle moves freely. east, west, north,
south, deep, shallow, cold, warm, clear, low vis: not a problem.

are you a barking moonbat alan?
or just a mentally challenged diver?

this I would have expected from JOF.

> € Thanks  very much for your help.
> €
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> €
> € Arnold
Alan Street - 05 Dec 2005 01:20 GMT
> > > Hello All. I'm new to the group and to SCUBA in general. Was certified
> > > in Bora Bora earlier this year (ANMP-CEDIP 1*) and and just recently
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> alan may not yet have noticed, as most divers have,
> but a hand held compass 'could accomodate card tilt' easily.

Yes, you can accomodate it, but it's akward. There's a reason Suunto
sells different compasses for different zones. There's also a reason
Suunto bothered to invent and patent a compass that isn't as
susceptable to declination (US patent  5,560,114 if you're interested).

> > Today, they're more likely to use fluxgate
> > (electronic) compasses that aren't affected by declination.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> obviously the needle points to the magnetic pole, which is not always
> tangent to the earths surface.

So if you knew how large ships deal with declination, why did you imply
that they ignored the phenomenon?

> maybe your compass has a problem, but mine works from Boston harbor to
> the barrier reef with no big problems. any one with any diving ability
> just adjusts the compass so the needle moves freely. east, west, north,
> south, deep, shallow, cold, warm, clear, low vis: not a problem.

There's nothing wrong with my compass (Suunto SK-7). It's a great
compass, but personally I don't like tilting my arm 20~30 degrees to
get the compass card to move freely. It works great around the equator,
but not so great in North America.

> are you a barking moonbat alan?

No. Are you?

> or just a mentally challenged diver?

Also no. Just one who pays attention to the way things work.

> this I would have expected from JOF.

Why?

> > > Thanks  very much for your help.
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Arnold
David Gintz - 06 Dec 2005 23:52 GMT
Why does it matter where the compass is pointing? It would seem that unless
you were trying to get to a certain place on a certain heading, it wouldn't
matter if the compass was off at all.

If you are using it to figure out how to get back to where you started from,
you'd simply reverse course (or adjust for that). It seems to me that if you
start out going North (according to your compass) and it really isn't North,
reversing course and going (according to the compass) South would work
regardless of what "North" or "South" really were.

Or am I missing something?
Alan Street - 07 Dec 2005 00:02 GMT
> Why does it matter where the compass is pointing? It would seem that unless
> you were trying to get to a certain place on a certain heading, it wouldn't
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Or am I missing something?

Somewhat. I was using the wrong term. Declination is the difference
between true north and magnetic north, and you're right, it doesn't
generally matter for diving if you just use relative out and back
headings.

Inclination, or dip, is what causes the compass card to tilt as you
move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in
heading, but it can prevent the compass card from spinning freely.
David Gintz - 07 Dec 2005 00:27 GMT
> Inclination, or dip, is what causes the compass card to tilt as you
> move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in
> heading, but it can prevent the compass card from spinning freely.

Once again, I may be showing my ignorance but how is that dip any different
from what I could cause by holding the compass in a non-level orientation?
In that case, I just level it myself. Isn't that the solution in this case?
I could see a problem if the compass was mounted in a fixed position on a
ship but it ain't too stable on my console anyways!
Alan Street - 10 Dec 2005 16:21 GMT
> > Inclination, or dip, is what causes the compass card to tilt as you
> > move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I could see a problem if the compass was mounted in a fixed position on a
> ship but it ain't too stable on my console anyways!

You would think so, but I have a wrist mounted compass that's a real
pain in the a.s to use outside of it's intended zone. Yes, I can hold
my arm tilted ~20 degrees, but if you're swimming in really poor viz
and using the compass continuously for navigation, it's gets to be a
pain pretty quickly.
Dan Bracuk - 10 Dec 2005 17:16 GMT
Alan Street <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:but if you're swimming in really poor viz
:and using the compass continuously for navigation, it's gets to be a
:pain pretty quickly.

I solve that problem by simply not diving in really bad viz.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
-hh - 10 Dec 2005 23:53 GMT
> Alan Street <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I solve that problem by simply not diving in really bad viz.

In some conditions, it can be pretty easy to get 'turned around' and
lose your natural orientation, even if you have good viz.

One example is if you're photographing a turtle, as their natural
instinct is to respond to what they perceive as a predator by swimming
a curved route around the 'threat', and the net result (and photo
technique) is that the UW photographer can do a small circle while the
turtle swims larger circles around him.   After 2, 3, 4, ... 6 circles,
you may find that whatever natural navigation bearings you had,
particularly if its a reef that you're not previously familiar with,
are trashed.  And of course, your buddy is named Murphy, and he was
following you instead of paying any attention to navigation.

In any event, difficulties in needle float due to Inclination
variations can alternatively be addressed by not mounting the compass
on your wrist.

-hh
Alan Street - 11 Dec 2005 00:00 GMT
> > Alan Street <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> > resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> -hh

It's a DIR thing ;-)
-hh - 11 Dec 2005 00:12 GMT
> It's a DIR thing ;-)

Yup, one that makes you unnecessarily buy more gear than you really
need.   Film at 11.

-hh
Dan Bracuk - 11 Dec 2005 03:51 GMT
"-hh" <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:One example is if you're photographing a turtle, as their natural
:instinct is to respond to what they perceive as a predator by swimming
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
:are trashed.  And of course, your buddy is named Murphy, and he was
:following you instead of paying any attention to navigation.

If you were doing dead reakoning nav on the way to the turtle, the
compass now has no use whatsoever.  No sense carrying it.

But, since you mentioned turtles, you have your observations andI have
mine.  Every turtle I have seen that appeared threatened just
straightlined the heck outta there.  

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
-hh - 12 Dec 2005 01:08 GMT
> But, since you mentioned turtles, you have your observations andI have
> mine.  Every turtle I have seen that appeared threatened just
> straightlined the heck outta there.

IIRC, you've done some diving in Cozumel ... was this there, or
elsewhere?

FWIW, sometimes it seems that turtles will be jumpy and easily spooked
- and sometimes, there's a reason why:  they caught a couple of illegal
turtle poachers on Cayman Brac this fall.

-hh
chilly - 14 Dec 2005 10:23 GMT
> > But, since you mentioned turtles, you have your observations andI have
> > mine.  Every turtle I have seen that appeared threatened just
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> - and sometimes, there's a reason why:  they caught a couple of illegal
> turtle poachers on Cayman Brac this fall.

I too have noticed that they'll do a bit of a turn and then they take off.
I even had one come along to swim with me.  We hung out for a while.  He
kept reaching over to take a bite of something, whether it was my hair or my
reg hoses, I dunno.  I never did let him get quite close enough to find out
what he was after. (Belize)

I had another one coming straight for me and I held as still as I could to
see how close it would get.  Unfortunately, some other clown got ansty and
made a ruckus, which scared it away.(Belize in mating season)

In Sipadan, they didn't seem to mind us at all and we could get very close
to them.  There were so many of them, that eventually, we started to look
past them to see what else we could see.

> -hh
Dan Bracuk - 19 Dec 2005 02:17 GMT
"-hh" <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:IIRC, you've done some diving in Cozumel ... was this there, or
:elsewhere?

Last week in Little Cayman, they sort of hung around until they were
sick and tired of the flashes and then they swam away.  In a straight
line more or less.

I'll have pictures ready for public viewing soon.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Popeye - 10 Dec 2005 01:52 GMT
> ? Why does it matter where the compass is pointing? It would seem that
> unless
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> move from high latitudes to the equator. This doesn't cause an error in
> heading, but it can prevent the compass card from spinning freely.

Earth's Magnetic Pole Drifting Quickly

 By ALICIA CHANG
AP Science Writer
Dec 09 7:28 PM US/Eastern

SAN FRANCISCO - Earth's north magnetic pole is drifting away from North
America and toward Siberia at such a clip that Alaska might lose its
spectacular Northern Lights in the next 50 years, scientists said Thursday.
Despite accelerated movement over the past century, the possibility that
Earth's modestly fading magnetic field will collapse is remote. But the
shift could mean Alaska may no longer see the sky lights known as auroras,
which might then be more visible in more southerly areas of Siberia and
Europe.

The magnetic poles are part of the magnetic field generated by liquid iron
in Earth's core and are different from the geographic poles, the surface
points marking the axis of the planet's rotation.
ADVERTISEMENT

Scientists have long known that magnetic poles migrate and in rare cases,
swap places. Exactly why this happens is a mystery.

"This may be part of a normal oscillation and it will eventually migrate
back toward Canada," Joseph Stoner, a paleomagnetist at Oregon State
University, said Thursday at an American Geophysical Union meeting.

Previous studies have shown that the strength of the Earth's magnetic shield
has decreased 10 percent over the past 150 years. During the same period,
the north magnetic pole wandered about 685 miles out into the Arctic,
according to a new analysis by Stoner.

The rate of the magnetic pole's movement has increased in the last century
compared to fairly steady movement in the previous four centuries, the
Oregon researchers said.

At the present rate, the north magnetic pole could swing out of northern
Canada into Siberia. If that happens, Alaska could lose its Northern Lights,
which occur when charged particles streaming away from the sun interact with
different gases in Earth's atmosphere.

The north magnetic pole was first discovered in 1831 and when it was
revisited in 1904, explorers found that the pole had moved 31 miles.

For centuries, navigators using compasses had to learn to deal with the
difference between magnetic and geographic north. A compass needle points to
the north magnetic pole, not the geographic North Pole. For example, a
compass reading of north in Oregon is about 17 degrees east of geographic
north.

In the study, Stoner examined the sediment record from several Arctic lakes.
Since the sediments record the Earth's magnetic field at the time,
scientists used carbon dating to track changes in the magnetic field.

They found that the north magnetic field shifted significantly in the last
thousand years. It generally migrated between northern Canada and Siberia,
but it sometimes moved in other directions, too.

___

On the Net:

American Geophysical Union: http://www.agu.org
 
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