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Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / August 2005

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Lead weights ...

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Patch - 04 Aug 2005 13:00 GMT
I am curious if the Sea Pearls plain (uncoated) weights will mark up our
BCD's.  We use coated weights now, but since the plain, uncoated ones are
cheaper, I would like to try them.  We have Zeagle's, and have the little
yellow pouches, but it is simpler to just stuff the weights into the weight
pockets, and remove when packing up.

The soft weights are an option also, and I assume they are cleaner because
of the bag.

Thanks for any insight ...

John
Polk City, FL
Lee Bell - 04 Aug 2005 15:51 GMT
>I am curious if the Sea Pearls plain (uncoated) weights will mark up our
> BCD's.  We use coated weights now, but since the plain, uncoated ones are
> cheaper, I would like to try them.  We have Zeagle's, and have the little
> yellow pouches, but it is simpler to just stuff the weights into the
> weight
> pockets, and remove when packing up.

> The soft weights are an option also, and I assume they are cleaner because
> of the bag.

Uncoated lead and salt water are not an environmentally friendly
combination.  That doesn't stop dive operators from all over the world from
using them, but those that are sensitive to such issues don't.  Soft weights
contain coated shot and, while usually more expensive than coated or
uncoated hard weights, are a lot more comfortable.

In answer to your question, no, uncoated weights will not mark up your BCD.

Lee
Cpt. Dale Bennett - 04 Aug 2005 17:21 GMT


>  Soft weights contain coated shot and, while usually more expensive than
> coated or uncoated hard weights, are a lot more comfortable.

I would be suspicious of any claim that shot-filled weights were either
coated or environmentally friendly.  While some shot might be coated, I have
not seen any that are.  I have seen many that had the shot enclosed in a
plastic bag of some kind.  Coating the individual shot would be expensive.
Most of these are then enclosed in a fabric bag.  Scubapro uses a double
vinyl bag.

The problem with shot is that as it is used the shot rub against one another
and produce lead dust. The process is about the same as tumbling the inside
of your tank or polishing rocks in a tumbler.   Even if the shot were
coated, the coating would eventually wear away.  If the shot is enclosed in
only a mesh bag, the dust leaks out into the environment. When you get home
from a dive and drop your weights on the mudroom floor it flows out with
watever water is left and leaves a little grey puddle of lead dust.

You might think the problem is solved by sealing the shot in a plastic bag.
The fact is that the dust is still formed by the grinding of the lead shot
and eventually the bag will always rupture.  I once tossed a Scubapro weight
on the sole of my boat after a cold November dive.  The vinyl package was
brittle and broke open.  I am still finding little pieces of lead shot in
the carpet of my boat, five years later.

Coated solid weights work well in isolating the lead but many divers believe
that they are too uncomfortable.  Uncoated lead may actually be almost as
good because the lead, just like aluminum, quickly forms an oxide coating
which prevents further corrosion and leaching out of the lead.

I'm not a chemist.  Maybe one might want to add to this discussion...

Safe diving,
Cpt. Dale
-hh - 04 Aug 2005 19:11 GMT
Cpt Dale writes:
> I'm not a chemist.  Maybe one might want to add to this discussion...

Overall, while its always a good idea to eliminate pollution sources,
the contribution of this one is masked by background noise, namely the
lead that already occurs in seawater.

It is estimated that the Earth contains around 326 million cubic miles
of water, of which roughly 300 is seawater, as per:
http://www.celestopea.com/OTEC.htm

A detailed composition of seawater can be found here:
http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm

...which states that Lead is present at around 0.00003 ppm.

What this means is that (300 million) * 0.00003 (parts/million) = 9,000
cubic miles of lead are currently in the oceans.

To convert this to a mass, lead is around 8.5g/cc, so the amount of
lead already in the oceans is:

= [(8.5 gram)/ (1 cm^3)] * (9000)
(miles^3)*(5280ft/mi)^3*(12inch/ft)^3*(2.54cm/inch)^3*(1lb/454gram)*(1
ton/2000lbs)

= (8.5)*(9000)*(147,197,952,000)*(1728)*(16.387064)*(1/454)*(1/2000)

= 351,173,909,301,987 tons

= ~350 trillion tons

Assuming that every diver in the world were to lose a quarter pound per
year, at 2 million active divers, that's a half million lbs/year, or
250 tons/year.

This sounds like a lot until you divide to get the Signal:Noise ratio:
it then works out to roughly a "1 to quadrillion" ratio.

What this would work out to is that for a 1 part per billion change, it
would require 1 million years of diving (eg, 1B * 1M = 1Q).

Pragmatically, if we look for the significant manmade sources of lead
pollution of our oceans, we find that most are due to lead being an
airborne combustion byproduct that then comes out due to rainfall.  I
believe that the big contributors are considered to be from vehicle
emissions (in particular from back when we used tetraethyl lead in
gasoline, at around a 1%-2% concentration).  Coal for electrical
generation is also a known contributor, but the EPA estimated that they
released only 3,283 tons of lead compounds into the environment in
1999, which was <2% of all lead released by industries (which summed to
188,686 tons of lead and lead compounds into the environment in 1999),
and worldwide, the total sum would obviously be higher.

Using this last datapoint and our previously listed assumptions,
divers' weightbelts would notionally be responsible for no more than
~0.1% of all lead pollution.

-hh
greatviz - 04 Aug 2005 19:47 GMT
> Pragmatically, if we look for the significant manmade sources of lead
> pollution of our oceans, we find that most are due to lead being an
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> -hh

Don't forget all the stuff with lead solder in the landfills
contaminating ground water - electronics, autos, etc. We do way more
damage to the environment being consumers than we do diving.  There is a
move for industry to go to lead free solder - but I've tried several
kinds of the stuff and there are various issues with that as well.
Alan Street - 04 Aug 2005 20:22 GMT
> > Pragmatically, if we look for the significant manmade sources of lead
> > pollution of our oceans, we find that most are due to lead being an
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> move for industry to go to lead free solder - but I've tried several
> kinds of the stuff and there are various issues with that as well.

It's more than a movement, it's law:

http://www.pb-free.info/laymans_terms.htm
Cpt. Dale Bennett - 04 Aug 2005 21:05 GMT


> ? Don't forget all the stuff with lead solder in the landfills
> ? contaminating ground water - electronics, autos, etc. We do way more
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ?
> It's more than a movement, it's law:

I could be wrong, but I don't think they have taken the lead out of solder
used in electronics yet.  The high melting point needed for the substitutes
would be problematic for the many heat-sensitive components.  Most of the
pressure to remove or reduce lead in solder was aimed at the solder used to
join copper pipes in drinking water supplies.  It is always seen as more
important to us to avoid poisening ourselves than the critters around us.

Safe diving,
Cpt. Dale
Alan Street - 04 Aug 2005 21:15 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I could be wrong, but I don't think they have taken the lead out of solder
> used in electronics yet.

You are. Anyone planning to sell consumer electronics into the EU in
2006 has to be in compliance with RoHS, which means lead free solders
(among other things). Every major semiconductor manufacturer on the
planet has spent a considerable amount of time and money getting ready
for this, and Pb-free solders are pretty much mainstream now for all
consumer electronics.

The high melting point needed for the substitutes
> would be problematic for the many heat-sensitive components.  Most of the
> pressure to remove or reduce lead in solder was aimed at the solder used to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Safe diving,
> Cpt. Dale
Cpt. Dale Bennett - 04 Aug 2005 21:24 GMT


> In article <keWdnZ2dnZ1kzwuynZ2dnV3pb9-dnZ2dRVn-052dnZ0@comcast.com>,
> ? I could be wrong, but I don't think they have taken the lead out of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> for this, and Pb-free solders are pretty much mainstream now for all
> consumer electronics.

I guess I haven't been paying attention lately.  Maybe it is all the brain
cells that I lost in my youth while I assembled all those projects, holding
the components in one hand, soldering iron in the other, leaning over it
with solder in my teeth.

Safe diving,
Cpt. Dale
Alan Street - 04 Aug 2005 22:47 GMT
>  
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the components in one hand, soldering iron in the other, leaning over it
> with solder in my teeth.

:-)

> Safe diving,
> Cpt. Dale
greatviz - 04 Aug 2005 19:41 GMT
>  

> The problem with shot is that as it is used the shot rub against one another
> and produce lead dust. The process is about the same as tumbling the inside
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> from a dive and drop your weights on the mudroom floor it flows out with
> watever water is left and leaves a little grey puddle of lead dust.

Yep, and if it tracks into the house or you don't clean your hands
before eating (remember to wipe off the faucet handles afterwards too),
you can expose yourself or your family and your pets to lead poisoning.
Lead gets stored in your brain, organs, and bones after leaving your
bloodstream - so even getting a blood level won't tell you your lifetime
exposure to the stuff.

If you do notice lead dust from soft weights, don't try to vacuum it -
you will just throw it into the air where you can breathe it into your
lungs.  Sweeping dry can do the same.  You should mop it up with a wet
rag and bag it for disposal. Be especially careful if kids are in the
house.
Lee Bell - 04 Aug 2005 20:16 GMT
>>  Soft weights contain coated shot and, while usually more expensive than
>> coated or uncoated hard weights, are a lot more comfortable.

> I would be suspicious of any claim that shot-filled weights were either
> coated or environmentally friendly.  While some shot might be coated, I
> have not seen any that are.  I have seen many that had the shot enclosed
> in a plastic bag of some kind.  Coating the individual shot would be
> expensive. Most of these are then enclosed in a fabric bag.  Scubapro uses
> a double vinyl bag.

I can't swear that all led shot is coated, only that some of it is.  I'm
quite sure that some of my weights specifically mentioned that the shot was
coated.

> The problem with shot is that as it is used the shot rub against one
> another and produce lead dust. The process is about the same as tumbling
> the inside of your tank or polishing rocks in a tumbler.   Even if the
> shot were coated, the coating would eventually wear away.

Correct.  That's why articles discussing the issue have always said that,
when you notice grey water coming from your shot pouches, it's time to
replace them.

> If the shot is enclosed in only a mesh bag, the dust leaks out into the
> environment. When you get home from a dive and drop your weights on the
> mudroom floor it flows out with watever water is left and leaves a little
> grey puddle of lead dust.

It's time to replace them.

Lee
Patch - 04 Aug 2005 17:53 GMT
Good point ... had not thought of the saltwater/enviornment thing.  I wonder
how the the shot in the soft weights is different than the solid, web thru
weights, althought they do say coated shot.

I tried to paint (dip) the uncoated weights that I had ... don't go there
anyone.

I think I will just go with the solid, coated weights.  They sell them at
the local dive shop.

Thanks ...

John

> >I am curious if the Sea Pearls plain (uncoated) weights will mark up our
> > BCD's.  We use coated weights now, but since the plain, uncoated ones are
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Lee
Adam Helberg - 04 Aug 2005 21:41 GMT
>>I am curious if the Sea Pearls plain (uncoated) weights will mark up our
>> BCD's.  We use coated weights now, but since the plain, uncoated ones are
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Lee

I don't believe the lead shot in soft weights is coated. In fact probably much more
lead leaches out of those wieghts than from solid lead beacuse of the much larger
surface area in contact with the water.

I've not noticed any marking from lead in the soft pouches, but I have wondered about
lead leaching out of the shot and after diving I try to keep wet pouches away from my
other gear especially the regulator. My concern is not about marking but about
absorbing toxic lead.

Adam
Lee Bell - 05 Aug 2005 03:30 GMT
> I don't believe the lead shot in soft weights is coated. In fact probably
> much more lead leaches out of those wieghts than from solid lead beacuse
> of the much larger surface area in contact with the water.

At least some of mine said they were.  I can't be sure about all of them.
They were bought over quite a few years, some before the risk was common
knowledge.

Lee
Adam Helberg - 05 Aug 2005 04:17 GMT
>> I don't believe the lead shot in soft weights is coated. In fact probably much
>> more lead leaches out of those wieghts than from solid lead beacuse of the much
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Lee

I tried a google search on this and did not get much. Sea Pearls, which is very
popular here in S Cal just talks about using a larger shot to reduce surface area.

http://www.seapearls.com/weights-soft.html

And their coated weights are made of antimony alloy which may be even more toxic.
Could this explain why we're getting stupider with age?

Adam
Lee Bell - 05 Aug 2005 10:04 GMT
> And their coated weights are made of antimony alloy which may be even more
> toxic. Could this explain why we're getting stupider with age?

I prefer to think it's more a matter of becoming more aware of all we don't
know.

Lee
RayC - 25 Aug 2005 20:07 GMT
> I am curious if the Sea Pearls plain (uncoated) weights will mark up our
> BCD's.  We use coated weights now, but since the plain, uncoated ones are
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> John
> Polk City, FL

I used to work for Seapearls quite a few years ago and we
had a demonstration that explained the differences between
the products.

First, take a #5 uncoated weight and throw it at your right
foot.  It will do two things ... break your toe and mark
your shoe.

Next, take a COATED #5 weight and throw it against your left
foot.  It will break your toe, but the shoe will be unmarked.

Now, if you don't want to do either of those, take a #5 shot
pouch and toss it at either foot and you will feel it hit,
but id does no damage at al.

The point is, shot is just more comfortable ... that's it.
As far as marking the BC is concerned, it really depends on
the condition of the lead.  If your uncoated lead is marred
from constantly dropping it, then it will create sharp edges
that can and will chafe the nylon.  However, if you keep it
new looking, especially the smooth molded Seapearls stuff,
it should be no problem at all.

Soft weight is messy if you don't take care of it properly.
 Even the so called "Plated" shot will wear off the plating
and the lead will be exposed to oxidize.  That oxidized lead
forms with the salt and creates a gray ugly mud to drain all
over your dive gear.  You need to rinse it well and I soak
in some stuff called Salt-X to neutralize the salt before I
put it away.  And the plastic pouches ... fugedaboudit! The
pouches will get punctured the first time you drop them and
let water in anyway.

Hope that helps.

Just my $.02

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