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Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / August 2005New Equipment
I am a 58 year old, experienced scuba diver (with over 20 years of diving under my belt) who was hit by a car in 1989 & hasn't been diving since. I now want to get back into the sport but, having been away from it for so long I decided to take a basic "Open Water Diver" course at my local dive shop to familiarize myself with new equipment & to finally get certified. (Yes...I am one of those "Mike Nelson" of Sea Hunt guys that has plenty of experience but never felt the need to get certified) Anyway, I am a safe diver who lives in Massachusetts and all of my diving is lobster hunting in fairly shallow water. (60' or less) I am about halfway through the Open Water course & find that I don't really like, or feel that I need, some of the newer equipment. For example: 1.. The BCD.......I find it extremely cumbersome, expensive to buy, a waste of tank air, just another thing to keep cleaned & serviced, and a device that has very limited utility for my type of diving. (Unless I'm missing something, why not the old "Horse Collar" flotation device to accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost? I have never liked being bulky, while diving, & I always had good buoyancy control by simply using the correct amount of weights. (I used 20 lbs of weight, which made me slightly positively buoyant on the surface but slightly negatively buoyant on the bottom.) 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath" in the unlikely event (never have needed to in over 20 years of diving) that your buddy needs your air while under?? Again, I don't like all the additional hoses & crap hanging off of me while under! 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve? Everything now seems to be geared for the "K" valve, with no reserve..The idea is that the SPG will tell you all you need to know about your remaining air. Suppose the SPG fails or you get so busy that you fail to watch it carefully?? At least with the old "J" valve, when you felt that familiar "getting hard to breath" feeling you could just pull the reserve handle & you had plenty of air to finish your dive & surface. As part of my normal dive routine I would always check the reserve handle (a few times during a dive) to make sure that it was still cocked. (In a real emergency you can always just dump your weights and "Blow & Go!) A good dive watch, common sense and experience tells you all you need to know. I would always plan my dives so that I would be fairly close to my boat (or the beach if beach diving) at the end of a dive anyway. Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get! Love to hear any comments from experienced divers..Maybe I'm missing something! > Love to hear any comments from experienced divers..Maybe I'm missing > something! Yes, you posted this same troll to 'Scubaboard' yesterday. 1 - Use the horse collar if that is what you are comfortable with. BCDs are primarity bouncy CONTROL devices, and emergecny flotation as a distent 2nd function If you adjust so you you are slightly negative at 10ft with a full tank, you are going to 4-5pounds positive at the end of the dive with less than 300psi left in the tank (ie, when you pull the Jvalve), and that can make it awfully hard to maintain a safety stop at the end of a dive. So, you weight yourself to be neutral or slightly negative at the END of the dive and use whatever bouncy control device you have to keep you neutral through out the dive 2 - Octopus is more for your buddy, do you intent to knife him if he comes up out of air and snatches your primary and refuses to give it back?? Yank it away and let him drown?? 3 - If you think you would NOT surface immediately if a SPG failed, OR you are one of the idiots who ignore it - you are probably also the same kind of guy who runs out of gas in his car. Would you like to have a car that only told you when you have 5miles worth of gas left before warning you that you were getting low? I don't think anyone even makes a Jvalve anymore and they are way to easy to bump so that they are non-functional. However, do what you want if you can find a Jvalve for your equipment You will find that most dive boats are NOT going to let you onboard if you don't have an octopus and SPG, most will let you dive with a horsecollar if that is what you like And if you dive solo, just put up with the stuff in the class, then do whatever you want to do, especially if you have your own boat. Another oldtimer - been diving since the double hose regulator days and I love my John >I am a 58 year old, experienced scuba diver (with over 20 years of diving >under my belt) who was hit by a car in 1989 & hasn't been diving since. I [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >Love to hear any comments from experienced divers..Maybe I'm missing >something! "I decided to take a basic "Open Water Diver" course at my local dive shop to familiarize myself with new equipment & to finally get certified." It sounds like your getting what you wanted. Sure, you'll probably always remember Sea Hunt. Welcome to rec.scuba equipment from one diving dinasaur to another. I'm 57. I started diving in 1962 and got my first C card in 1969 because I was having problems getting air fills without one. For the first 30 years, dove pretty much like you describe except without even the horsecollar you mention. I purchased my first bcd and octopus in 1991, when my wife was certified. For the first time ever, I wanted to let somebody else drive the boat to the dive sites and, without a bcd and octopus, they would not let me aboard. This, of course, brings me to the first answer to your question. You need a certification and certain equipment to satisfy the providers of services you want. Like any other self regulated industry, the industry makes most of the rules. > 1.. The BCD . . . why not the "Horse Collar" flotation device to > accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost? No particular reason unless there is a rule that the device be self inflating. The point of a bcd, however, is not primarily for emergency flotation at the surface. It's for adjusting buoyancy during the dive. When you and I started diving, the common tank was a 72 cubic foot model. The total weight shift during the dive was relatively insignifiant. We adjusted by changing our breathing patterns a bit and, if necessary, by finning in the correct direction. As tank sizes grew, the buoyancy shift due to use of gas increased, making it increasingly difficult to adjust without something like a bcd to assist. These days, I still dive with no gas in my bcd when using an 80 cubic foot tank, but use just a little my bcd during the initial stages of a dive with my high pressure 100 cubic foot tanks. It's not necessary, but it's convenient. By the way, if you like the way you have been diving in the past, don't miss the plate and wing gear option. I'm currently using a stainless steel plate, very much like the old plastic back packs, with a flotation bladder that goes between the plate and the tank. The harness and, for that matter, the entire setup, is very much like what you are used to and very streamlined. It is not, however, very cheap. > 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath" in the unlikely > event (never have needed to in over 20 years of diving) that your buddy > needs your air while under?? Again, I don't like all the additional hoses > & crap hanging off of me while under! There's little question that it's easier to share gas with a separate regulator than with only one. It's also pretty certain that there is a degree of calming effect to having exclusive use of a second stage that stays in your mouth during an emergency situation. The biggest reason for complying with this one, however, is probably the fact that most divers you will encounter, never learned to buddy breathe and, since it takes two to accomplish, it is probably best to comply with what others know. > 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve? Never had one. Your J valve is, to me, like the octopus is to you, unnecessary . . . provided you have an unbalanced first stage. The unbalanced first stage got harder to breathe when the tank was down to about 500 psi. For many of us, that was enough to tell us when to surface. We didn't need a reserve on top of that. When balanced first stages became the standard, the J valve became desirable, at least until submersible pressure guages became the norm. The biggest problem with the J valves was that many forgot to open it for a fill and then close it for the dive. Failure to do either, defeated it's purpose. You were actually better off without one, because you did not depend on it, than you were with one that didn't function. > At least with the old "J" valve, when you felt that familiar "getting hard > to breath" feeling you could just pull the reserve handle & you had plenty > of air to finish your dive & surface. > In a real emergency you can always just dump your weights and "Blow & Go! You can, but the odds of getting bent are greatly increased. > A good dive watch, common sense and experience tells you all you need to > know. A good dive computer tells you a lot more. Since when was common sense, common? > Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes > more dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, > creates more work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious > tank air that will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air > to get! OK, you're old fashioned. You're also right. There are, however, advantages to each change the industry has experienced that most feel are worth the incremental inconvenience that accompanied them. Today, if you were to view me underwater from the front, you would notice very little different from the way I looked 40 plus years ago. The exceptions is the octopus I wear on a short hose that is necklaced under my chin (my octopus is for my use only, you get the primary). From the rear, you can see the wing too. > Love to hear any comments from experienced divers..Maybe I'm missing > something! You're missing a little, but not much. Fact is, if you're happy diving the way you have been since the beginning and you don't care about not being able to use commercial dive boats, keep on as you have in the past. Otherwise, see what you can do to make the conveniences of modern equipment work for you with as little effort as possible. By the way, if you really like J valves and are having trouble finding them, I think I have a couple around here somewhere. If you want them, let me know and I'll see if I can find and send them. They came off a couple of pre 1988 Luxfer tanks that I drilled and recycled as scrap aluminum. I figured that somebody, somewhere, would want them. Lee "Dick" <devil505@adelphia.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting in: : (Unless I'm :missing something, why not the old "Horse Collar" flotation device to :accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost? I :have never liked being bulky, while diving, & I always had good buoyancy :control by simply using the correct amount of weights. Having started with a Horse Collar, here are the reasons I would not buy one. 1. Too hard to put on a horse collar, tank (separate harness), and weight belt. A stab jacket (or back inflate BC) and weight belt is much easier. A modern BC with weight pockets is even easier. 2. Modern stab jackets or back inflate BCs are make surface swiims much easier. 3. I'm not sure anyone sells horse collars anymore. Dan Bracuk If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure. >"Dick" <devil505@adelphia.net> pounded away at his keyboard resulting >in: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >:control by simply using the correct amount of weights. > I was certified in 1972 and I took a long break, too, though for reasons that differ from yours. But the new equipment is much, much better so far as I'm concerned. I don't use any more air and I might use less because I'm more likely to use the power inflator to keep my buoyancy near perfect than I used to be to mouth inflate the horse collar, so I probably fin less to stay on station. >Having started with a Horse Collar, here are the reasons I would not >buy one. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >much easier. A modern BC with weight pockets is even easier. > I think the old stuff was not particularly harder. Excepting the weight belt and tank, all the other pieces are light. My current rig weighs a ton with integrated weights mounted to a tank. I wouldn't go back, though. (But I'm not sure why I haven't thrown out the old tank backpack that doesn't even fit an AL80. Maybe because it would still work with a 72 and a dry suit. ;-) And I still wear a weight belt so the minimum increment of weight I can shed if necessary is less than half the total. >2. Modern stab jackets or back inflate BCs are make surface swiims >much easier. > I don't agree. A horse collar with a crotch strap was easier to swim in than my current back inflator BC, which makes a snorkel a near-necessity. (I still wouldn't go back.) >3. I'm not sure anyone sells horse collars anymore. > To my amazement, I saw brand new ones for sale not too long ago. I don't recall where, but since it was recent it had to be either Cape Ann, MA or Long Island, NY. Probably LI. <snip> John Eells > I'm not sure why I haven't thrown out the old tank backpack that doesn't even fit an AL80. I put a 30cf tank on mine and use it for emergency boat stuff, like when I pick up line or heavy plastic on the props. > To my amazement, I saw brand new ones for sale not too long ago. I don't > recall where, but since it was recent it had to be either Cape Ann, MA or > Long Island, NY. Probably LI. They're commonly sold as snorkeling vests. Lee > I am about halfway through the Open Water course & find that I don't really > like, or feel that I need, some of the newer equipment. For example: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > missing something, why not the old "Horse Collar" flotation device to > accomplish the same emergency flotation results at a fraction of the cost? Partly because even a horsecollar isn't cheap these days, so we may as well buy something that can be more comfortable & functional to the desired tasks. > I have never liked being bulky, while diving, & I always had good buoyancy > control by simply using the correct amount of weights. (I used 20 lbs of > weight, which made me slightly positively buoyant on the surface but > slightly negatively buoyant on the bottom.) The basic reason is because even when we used horsecollars, we used them for achieving neutral buoyancy during the dives...and its been this way for 20+ years, so it is time-proven. And there's a pretty significant difference in diving control and enjoyment when you have your buoyancy dialed-in to within a few pounds, as opposed to what you appear to be suggesting. Granted, you can fill/empty a BC with the old oral inflator, but the ease and convenience (and better air efficiency!) of a power inflator is worth its cost. > 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath"... Because Buddy Breathing incurs higher work taskloading than the two regulator solution (which makes it not as good), and hardware costs have come down sufficiently to make the two-reg solution acceptably affordable. > 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve? Its function been superceded by Pressure Gages and dive computers. But if you still want a J, as of a few years ago, they were still available for sale brand new...Sherwood, I think. > Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more > dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more > work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that > will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get! All true, but mechanical devices today tend to be more objectively reliable than their human-based skill equivalents, because of the perishability of these skills. -hh > 1.. The BCD. The BCD is not intended for emergency surface flotation as its primary function. Its primary purpose is buoyancy control during the dive. Your buoyancy will change with depth if you're diving a compressible suit (e.g., a wetsuit), and as you consume gas from your cylinder. You still need to weight yourself properly, but once you've done that, you use the BCD to make small adjustments to stay neutrally buoyant throughout the dive. I really enjoy being able to stay in a spot without having to constantly fin to maintain depth (yes, surge and current are another matter). My gas consumption is lower as a result. There are other advantages to being neutrally buoyant, especially when combined with proper trim. > 2.. The Octopus Regulator. Gas sharing with a second regulator is a lot less stressful to both divers than buddy breathing. > 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve? The K-valve is mechanically simpler. That alone makes it more reliable (though I don't think the failure rate of J-valves is all that high). I keep an SPG clipped to my waist band, on the left. Its no burden to unclip it to check the reading once in a while. On many dives, I have enough experience in similar conditions to know what to expect it to tell me, so the SPG has become a backup device, a sort of sanity check. The SPG is a key component in dive planning. My dives, almost without exception, involve returning to a starting point to end the dive. The reading on my SPG is one of the elements that goes into deciding when to "turn" the dive. I wouldn't dive without one. > Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more > dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more > work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that > will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get! I empathize with you just a little. It sure would be nice to dive without so much stuff. Its a PITA to dress and set up all of this gear, and it sure did cost a little. On the other hand, I've had the same gear for 4 or 5 years now. Its been very reliable, the cost of maintenance hasn't been unbearable, and setting it up and diving with it have become second nature. Still, it would be nice if all I needed was that tiny James Bond rebreather and fins and a swimsuit. Some additional drag over your old configuration is unavoidable. But there are configuration options that can reduce the drag contributed by the extra gear, including back-inflation BDCs, and careful routing of hoses. I think you'll find that, overall, your gas supply will last a bit longer if you use a BCD and acquire the skill to maintain neutral buoyancy. And, finally, some charter dive boats will require that you have a BCD, SPG, and bottom timer (or dive computer). That's probably the bottom line.  SignatureArt Greenberg Thanks for all your replies & I realize that to dive charter boats (something I intend to do on vacations) I will have to be able to use all the equipment we are discussing, which is one of the reasons why I am taking the PADI Open Water course. (The other main reason is to see how I'll do (under supervised conditions) 15 years past the "closed head injury" I suffered in 1989 & to finally get certified) I guess my main complaint is really that I am getting the feeling that PADI is at least as interested a dive merchandising as they are in basic dive safety! I still feel that, for the relatively shallow diving that I do, a BCD is of very limited utility for buoyancy control....which was never a problem for me in the first place. As far as it's safety value for flotation........$500.00 can buy allot of Horse Collars or Mae Wests! I think I will follow some suggestions & try the "Wing" type of BC while I'm still in the class pool as they seem to be much less bulky (when you're trying to squeeze in between boulders to dig out a lobster) & less expensive to buy. >> 1.. The BCD. > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > And, finally, some charter dive boats will require that you have a BCD, SPG, > and bottom timer (or dive computer). That's probably the bottom line. > Thanks for all your replies & I realize that to dive charter boats (something > I intend to do on vacations) I will have to be able to use all the equipment [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > trying to squeeze in between boulders to dig out a lobster) & less expensive > to buy. You definitely should try a backplate/wing in your PADI class. Since you've correctly observed that PADI is far more about marketing the dive industry than they are about training divers, and very few dive shops like to carry BP/wings, you'd be thumbing your nose somewhat at the marketing machine that's selling you a C-card. Unfortunately, you'll find that BP/wings aren't all that cheap, although places like here: http://oxycheq.com/main.html have them for somewhat less than Halcyon/OMS/Diverite, etc. > >> 1.. The BCD. > > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > And, finally, some charter dive boats will require that you have a BCD, SPG, > > and bottom timer (or dive computer). That's probably the bottom line. > ? > > You definitely should try a backplate/wing in your PADI class. Since > you've correctly observed that PADI is far more about marketing the > dive industry than they are about training divers, Bull sh.t. I started as a NAUI instructor and switched in 1979 to PADI. I never looked back. The students I refused to certify over the years have *always* ended up going to a NAUI instructor and getting their card. That includes a 10 year old with dad's steel tank that weighed almost as much as he did and who had a learning disability. He was the only one I told to get out of the water. The rest just could not pass the minimum standards set by PADI after as much time as they wanted to spend with me and my partner. They now have NAUI C-Cards. > > ? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bull sh.t. Not at all. PADI is all about marketing the dive industry. Training students, lots and lots of students, is a way to sell gear. I started as a NAUI instructor and switched in 1979 to PADI. > I never looked back. Then you're a good businessman, but not necessarily a good instructor. > The students I refused to certify over the years have *always* ended up > going to a NAUI instructor and getting their card. While it's the instructor, not the agency, as a general rule I think there are far more lax PADI instructors than NAUI ones. You love to cite this one example, but I'd be interested in knowing just how many students you refuse to certify, and the details of this NAUI instructor. That includes a 10 year > old with dad's steel tank that weighed almost as much as he did and who had > a learning disability. He was the only one I told to get out of the water. > The rest just could not pass the minimum standards set by PADI after as much > time as they wanted to spend with me and my partner. They now have NAUI > C-Cards. > Numbers and specifics, please. >> That includes a 10 year old with dad's steel tank that weighed almost as >> much as he did and who had >> a learning disability. 1. A ten year old tank that is current for hydro and inspection is just as good as a brand new one except to somebody who will profit from the sale of the new one. 2. That was a very small 10 year old. I suspect you're exagerating a bit. How much did the tank weigh in the water? 3. What kind of learning disability? You're using a very generic term, possibly, as an excuse for what may be nothing more than your inability to teach him. > He was the only one I told to get out of the water. Why? >> The rest just could not pass the minimum standards set by PADI after as >> much >> time as they wanted to spend with me and my partner. They now have NAUI >> C-Cards. Which strongly suggests that the fault was with your teaching rather than with the student. > Numbers and specifics, please. Particularly specifics about the PADI minimum standards they were unable to pass. Lee >>> That includes a 10 year old with dad's steel tank that weighed >>> almost as much as he did and who had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just as good as a brand new one except to somebody who will profit > from the sale of the new one. The tank was closer to 30 years old but I was talking about . > 2. That was a very small 10 year old. I suspect you're exagerating a > bit. How much did the tank weigh in the water? Yes he was very small. The tank "weighed enough in the water to drag him to the bottom if he did not have a wet suit on. Out of the water, sitting, once he went past vertical the tank pulled him over. > 3. What kind of learning disability? You're using a very generic > term, possibly, as an excuse for what may be nothing more than your [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Why? A variety of reasons but the final straw was the following. After reviewing with the class a descent procedure. I reviewed it with him and his partner and had both of them repeat it to me. I told them to start. PArt of the procedre requires an agreement with your partner to descend, etc. He dumped the air out of his BC, his partner started yelling at him to stop and he plummeted to the bottom faster than I could react. Fortunately he held his breath because another part of the procedure require putting the regulator rather than the snorkel in your mouth. >>> The rest just could not pass the minimum standards set by PADI >>> after as much [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Which strongly suggests that the fault was with your teaching rather > than with the student. Which contradicts your statement about PADI being only interested in selling gear and certifying students. >> Numbers and specifics, please. > > Particularly specifics about the PADI minimum standards they were > unable to pass. > > Lee >> 1. A ten year old tank that is current for hydro and inspection is >> just as good as a brand new one except to somebody who will profit >> from the sale of the new one. > The tank was closer to 30 years old but I was talking about . OK. A 30 year old tank that is current for hydro and inspection is fine too. >> 2. That was a very small 10 year old. I suspect you're exagerating a >> bit. How much did the tank weigh in the water? > Yes he was very small. > The tank "weighed enough in the water to drag him to the bottom if he did > not have a wet suit on. Did he have a wet suit on? > Out of the water, sitting, once he went past vertical the tank pulled him > over. You had options other than failing him. >> 3. What kind of learning disability? You're using a very generic >> term, possibly, as an excuse for what may be nothing more than your >> inability to teach him. >> >>> He was the only one I told to get out of the water. >> Why? > A variety of reasons but the final straw was the following. > After reviewing with the class a descent procedure. I reviewed it with him [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Fortunately he held his breath because another part of the procedure > require putting the regulator rather than the snorkel in your mouth. 8^) In other words, you got annoyed at a 10 year old for not paying enough attention and, in the process, making a mistake. Frankly, I blame PADI for the entire issue. I don't think 10 year olds are ready for scuba, but PADI found an untapped market and took advantage of it. I must admit that there have been a few occasions when I began a dive with my snorkel in my mouth instead of my regulator. >>>> The rest just could not pass the minimum standards set by PADI >>>> after as much [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Which contradicts your statement about PADI being only interested in > selling gear and certifying students. That wasn't my statement, but it doesn't contradict the statement made by somebody else. First, you are not PADI. PADI is the corporation and you are an instructor. From our conversations in the past, I have reason to believe that you care about the quality of the instruction you provide. I don't know if you're a good instructor, but I believe you are a conscientious one. From direct and indirect experience with PADI, I do not belive that they put safety first. Resort dives, training 10 year olds, promotion of diving as safe and suitable for everybody and their non stop promotion of PADI have all convinced me that their first priority is profits and that the quality of their course is not a real close second. I don't know that other agencies are much better, but PADI got to be the biggest by selling the most training to the most people, including the most that we've all seen demonstrate that they have no business with a card that says they know how to dive safely. Lee >>>1. A ten year old tank that is current for hydro and inspection is >>>just as good as a brand new one except to somebody who will profit [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > have been a few occasions when I began a dive with my snorkel in my mouth > instead of my regulator. This is my biggest worry about PADI - that they allow too many students per instructor. The place I do my PADI training with generally allocates one instructor for a course plus one divemaster or assistant instructor per student - but this is far beyond what PADI requires (and also reflects the fact that students are in demand by the divemasters more than the other way round in our club :-) ...cut... I must admit that there > have been a few occasions when I began a dive with my snorkel in my mouth > instead of my regulator. ...cut... > Lee Perhaps to go for mushrooms instead for lobster shall be safer for you... >> I must admit that there >> have been a few occasions when I began a dive with my snorkel in my mouth >> instead of my regulator. > Perhaps to go for mushrooms instead for lobster shall be safer for you... Probably, but safer has never been the goal. I've managed to survive 35 years of diving. I'm beginning to think I'm safe enough. Lee > ...cut... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Perhaps to go for mushrooms instead for lobster shall be safer for you.. If you haven't done it yourself, at least once, you've not been diving anywhere near enough. > I guess my main complaint is really that I am getting the feeling that > PADI is at least as interested a dive > merchandising as they are in basic dive safety! Then you should have said so. There are more than a few who would agree with you. > I still feel that, for the relatively shallow diving that I do, a BCD is > of very limited utility for buoyancy control . . . It is more useful in shallow water than in deep. The shallower you are, the greater the perceived change in buoyancy is for each incremental change in depth. > I think I will follow some suggestions & try the "Wing" type of BC while > I'm still in the class pool as they seem to > be much less bulky (when you're trying to squeeze in between boulders to > dig out a lobster) & less expensive to buy. It's certainly less bulky, but it's probably not a lot cheaper. Lee Dick -- Welcome back! Hope you resume your enjoyment of diving. Have you put these questions to your instructor? He/she should be able and willing to explain. > 1.. The BCD... why not the old "Horse Collar" flotation device to >accomplish the same emergency flotation results ... The BCD is not an "emergency flotation" device. It is what its name says -- a "Bouyancy Control Device". Please consult your instructor and your text and UNDERSTAND the difference. You may find that a backplate and wing device works better for you than the "jacket" type BCDs in wide use today. A good number of people who post her (including me) are _VERY_ happy to have put our jacket BCDs aside for backplate and wing systems. > 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath"... Buddy breathing is a great confidence builder. Unfortunately, the general belief is that in an actual emergency the most typical outcome of buddy breathing is two dead divers. Using a backup second stage is much easier and safer. I also advocate a cave-type system, not an "octopus". In this setup, the primary second stage is on a 7 foot hose. The hose feeds under your righ arm, across your body, over your left shoulder, around the back of your head, and over your right shoulder to your mouth. (This sounds much more confusing that it is in actual use.) Your backup second is rigged pretty much like the primary first stage you are now using, but it is held on a bungy or surgical tubing neckkace so that it is posistioned under your chin. In an emergency, your buddy takes your primary second; you duck your head to deploy the full 7 feet of hose, and pick up the second stage for you to breath. This system developed in cave diving, where it is very important because divers may have to pass single file through small openings. However, there are many situations in open water where it provides a great increase in safety for those very rare occasions when sharing air is necessary. > 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve? If you always plan your dive and work your plan, you don't need a "J" valve's "reserve" OR the info from an SPG. Unfortunately, very few of us can work our plans that exactly -- and even then, the SPG provide much more valuable information when something does go wrong. Suppose you are diving a wreck at 100 feet. Based on your plan, you still have 10 minutes or so to exit the wreck and begin you ascent. Then you feel the breating get harder and you know that you've reached your reserve. The air you now have left is totally inadquate to make a safe ascent. (O.K., you'll probably get to the surface, but with a greatly incrased risk of DCS.) BUT, if you'd been monitoring your SPG you would have known sooner that you were using (or loosing?) air faster than your plan. You would have had time to make a safe ascent. >Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more >dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more >work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that >will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get! O.K., "You're old fashioned!" <smile> But if you do a failure analysis, both the failure modes and the resulting dangers are LESS with the new equipment. If you select and set up your gear properly, there is very little added drag. The amount of air used to trim your BC is simply not noticable, assuming you are not overweighted. As for the cost of purchasing and maintianing your gear -- well, anyone who told you that SCUBA diving is an inexpenseive sport was lying. But, after all, this is LIFE SUPPORT equipment. Do you really want "cheap" gear? Don't worry -- you'll get your share of lobsters. SignatureCharlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >I am a 58 year old, experienced scuba diver (with over 20 years of diving >under my belt) who was hit by a car in 1989 & hasn't been diving since. > I'm 48, was certified in 1972, took a break for different reasons, and have been diving actively again for about 3 years. <snip> >I am about halfway through the Open Water course & find that I don't really >like, or feel that I need, some of the newer equipment. For example: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >slightly negatively buoyant on the bottom.) > You cannot stay neutral in Massachusetts (where a suit is needed) without some kind of BC. A horse collar works and the skill to use one is great to have even with a BC (power inflators *do* fail--I had a brand new one fail a couple of months ago). But a BC with a power inflator is better. Even though it uses air you haven't breathed yet, you will not need to clear the reg afterward, and even discounting that you would probably use less air with one because your trim is likely to be better for a greater percentage of the dive once you know how to use it well. And you can always choose to mouth inflate if you really want to. (I did it when the inflator failed. No big deal except that I had to rinse out the BC afterward and it scotched plans I had to penetrate a wreck.) > 2.. The Octopus Regulator...Why not just "Buddy Breath" in the unlikely >event (never have needed to in over 20 years of diving) that your buddy >needs your air while under?? Again, I don't like all the additional hoses & >crap hanging off of me while under! > Too many 2-diver drownings have shown that buddy breathing doesn't really work that well under stress, I suspect. Also, most recreational divers don't dive enough to keep the level of proficiency I think you might expect. > 3.. What was wrong with the old "J" valve? >Everything now seems to be geared for the "K" valve, with no reserve..The >idea is that the SPG will tell you all you need to know about your remaining >air. Suppose the SPG fails or you get so busy that you fail to watch it >carefully?? > An air integrated computer with an audible alarm can be had. But keeping an eye on your tank pressure is pretty automatic...and much better than, "Oh, damn, time to go up *now*...where's that rod...got it..." etc. >At least with the old "J" valve, when you felt that familiar "getting hard >to breath" feeling you could just pull the reserve handle & you had plenty [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >tells you all you need to know. > Nearly any decent modern regulator offers no warning of impending doom--er, low tank pressure--below 100 PSI. <snip> >Call me old fashioned, but I think a lot of this new stuff just causes more >dependence on systems that can fail, causes drag in the water, creates more >work to maintain, costs a fortune to buy and uses up precious tank air that >will cost you a few lobsters that you wont have enough air to get! > It definitely costs more. But as I said in my other post, I would never go back. The new stuff is much better once you're used to it. <snip> John Eells > I am a 58 year old, experienced scuba diver (with over 20 years of diving > under my belt) who was hit by a car in 1989 & hasn't been diving since. I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > 1.. The BCD....... <snip>. You're going to die. It's a certainty. |
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