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Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / June 2005

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Newbie BC Problem

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Jim - 24 Jun 2005 18:13 GMT
I got certified last summer and made five post-certification dives in
the fall.  Then was out for six months as a result of major surgery.
Dove in the Casino Point Catalina Marine Park yesterday with my wife
using some new equipment.

My new BC a rear-inflation weight integrated system.  I had a lot of
problems dumping all the air from this BC, which caused me to
over-weight myself and hence yo-yo.  Also I was front-heavy with an
aluminum 80 tank and 24 or 26 lbs. in the pouches.  One thing I think I
see is that I need to redo the waist strap because it is a little too
loose - thought that might be contributing to trapping air in the BC.
Also I wonder about having some weight permanently mounted on the back
of the BC.

I would appreciate any advice.  Hope to get this sorted out in a pool
or a Laguna Beach shore dive before taking the gear to Monterey and
then trip to Cabo.

Thanks,
Lee Bell - 24 Jun 2005 21:15 GMT
> My new BC a rear-inflation weight integrated system.  I had a lot of
> problems dumping all the air from this BC . . .

Rear inflation BCs are not known for trapping gas.  You do, however, have to
get the vent to the highest point.

. . . which caused me to over-weight myself and hence yo-yo.

It may have caused you to overweight, but it did not cause you to yo-yo.
You did that on your own.  You'll get better with practice.

> Also I was front-heavy with an aluminum 80 tank and 24 or 26 lbs. in the
> pouches.

No surprise there.  All you weight was in front.  This is pretty common with
newer divers.  Many, in fact, go out of their way to arrange things this
way.  As they gain experience, they move weight around and/or change to
different, more balanced equipment.

I presume you're using significant thermal protection, either a drysuit or a
thick wetsuit.  If not, then you're carrying way too much weight.

> One thing I think I see is that I need to redo the waist strap because it
> is a little too
> loose - thought that might be contributing to trapping air in the BC.
> Also I wonder about having some weight permanently mounted on the back
> of the BC.

Scott Koplan used to make a weighted single tank adapter for plate and wing
setups.  If a STA will fit your kit, you can do it yourself if you're even a
little handy or check with Scott to see if he, or anybody else are still
making them.

Since you're clear across the country from me, the best advice I can give is
get together with somebody from the shop that sold you that BCD and get them
to help you sort it out.

Lee
Jim - 24 Jun 2005 21:25 GMT
I was wearing a 7 for thermal protection.  I think I was maybe 2 lbs
over on the weight to get under with some trapped air.  Since I was
never neutrally bouyant without air trapped in the BC and/or I had
trouble releasing air from the BC, the yo-yo was more than I had ever
seen before.

My plan is to get educated before I go back to the dive shop so I'll
know if they're telling me the right thing - after all they shouldn't
be surprised at what happened.

Thanks for replying - any other ideas our there?
Clive Dive - 24 Jun 2005 22:48 GMT
Has the BC got a pull dump built into the LPI?  Try rolling/orientating
yourself so that your left shoulder [assuming standard gear config] is
at the highest point, and try again.  Do a weight check at end of dive,
not begining as you will be more +ve at end.
If its any consolation I had a crap dive 3 weeks ago, bobbing around
and grabbing rocks to keep down!!!  Know what the problem was?  Shoulder
strap on my wing was trapping air and stopping it going out of the
shoulder dump of my new suit!   Btw I am a trimix instructor with 1000+
divesunder my belt!!!  "Every day is a School day", learning all the
time, be safe.
Mike Painter - 25 Jun 2005 08:45 GMT
> I was wearing a 7 for thermal protection.  I think I was maybe 2 lbs
> over on the weight to get under with some trapped air.  Since I was
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Thanks for replying - any other ideas our there?

Dive a lot. Failing that try to spend time in a pool.
If you can master your buoyancy in six feet or less or water you've got it
licked.
Lee Bell - 25 Jun 2005 12:45 GMT
>I was wearing a 7 for thermal protection.  I think I was maybe 2 lbs
> over on the weight to get under with some trapped air.

For what it's worth, which is not a lot, I wear an additional 4 lbs of lead
for my 3mm wetsuit.  I doubt that the relationship between wetsuit thickness
and weight is linear, but my experience suggests that something around 9 lbs
extra for the wetsuit might be a starting point.

Now that I know you are using a wetsuit, there's an additional factor that
may be contributing to your yo yo experience.  As you know, I hope, the gas
in a wetsuit compresses as you descend and expands as you ascend.  That
accounts for some variation in buoyancy during various portions of the dive.
There is, at least for me, more to it than that.  My wetsuit compresses
normally down to about 15 feet.  Somewhere very close to 15 feet, I get a
noticably larger shift in buoyancy.  Below 15 feet, the shift is, once
again, at a normal rate.  I can't be sure what causes the sudden shift, but
I have an opinion.  While the gas in the wetsuit material compresses
gradually, the walls of the cells containing the gas don't.  They resist
compression until they collapse.  It is that collapse that I think is why I
get a sudden shift.  Once collapsed, the normal compression of gas is, once
again, the primary mechanism.

Whether my theory is correct or not, there's no question that the suddent
shift is real or, in my case, where it occurs.  I'm probably a bit more
sensitive to buoyancy shifts than the average diver.  I most often dive with
an empty wing and no thermal protection (I live in south Florida).  In this
configuration, I have virtually no buoyancy shift during a dive.  At any
rate, the shift at about 15 feet has much the same effect that you describe.
A very small change in depth has a disproportionate effect on my buoyancy,
creating the yo yo effect I think you're talking about.  The solution, for
me, is pretty easy.  I don't stay at 15 feet any longer than necessary.  I
don't plan cold water dives at that depth, I don't linger at that depth
during my descent or ascent, and I have even moved my normal safety and/or
deco stops to 20 feet or more.

If your problem is similar, try watching your depth closely a few times to
see where the sharp change occurs.  It's probably not at the same depth for
your suit that it is for mine, but there probably is a depth where it
occurs.  Avoid that depth.

Fine tuning buoyancy is easiest for those that can dive with the least
volume of compressable gas spaces.  Wetsuits contain a lot of such space
and, as I mentioned, don't always have nice smooth compression curves.
Drysuits have even more space, but normally do have smooth compression
curves.  While they do require more weight, they can be less of a hassel to
deal with.

Somebody else mentioned doing your buoyancy check at the end of the dive.
They're pretty much right.  For most recreational divers, tank pressure
never falls below about 500 psi, give or take a little.  I suggest you
adjust for neutral buoyancy as near to the surface as possible, with 500
psi, or whatever minimum you like better, in the tank.  The critical point
in the dive is your final ascent.  You do not want to be pulled to the
surface, even from your 15, or in my case, 20 foot safety stop.  You'll
necessarily be heavy during the entire dive, but that's the price you pay
for diving in colder waters.

> My plan is to get educated before I go back to the dive shop so I'll
> know if they're telling me the right thing - after all they shouldn't
> be surprised at what happened.

It's not so much educated as it is experienced.  You know that basics, it's
the fine tuning that's giving you problems and that takes time.  It just
takes less time if you are closely assisted by somebody that has done it
themselves and who is good at communicating with others.  If nothing else,
it's nice to have sombody to give and take weight as you seek your own,
personal, best weighting level.

Lee
Jim - 25 Jun 2005 20:13 GMT
Thanks everyone!  I've talked with the shop.  We're going to address
trim by adding a few lbs. of bullets to the back and weight pouches
there too so I can balance front/back.  I'm almost certain the suit
compression/decompression mentioned above accounts for some of the
yo-yo.  Since my wife and I were both wringing out new equipment we
stayed in the 20 -25 range alot and when I went up even a little I
picked up boyancy very suddenly.  I wonder if a brand new suit might be
even more susceptible to this issue.  I'm also looking at the shoulder
strap issue wrt to trapping air.
Clive Dive - 25 Jun 2005 22:03 GMT
 I'm also looking at the shoulder
> strap issue wrt to trapping air.

Forgot to say, bit obvious really, I dive in a Dry Suit.  IMHO trapped
air in a wetsuit is not an issue.  BTW  new wet suits or semi dry suits
are more buoyant because the gas bubbles have not been constantly
crushed and released back to normal.
Martin Törnsten - 29 Jun 2005 03:39 GMT
Captain's log. On StarDate Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:15:55 GMT received comm from "Lee
Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> on channel rec.scuba.equipment:

: > Also I wonder about having some weight permanently mounted on the back
: > of the BC.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: little handy or check with Scott to see if he, or anybody else are still
: making them.

What about the weighted STA at the bottom of this page?

martin törnsten

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http://martin.tornsten.com/

Martin Törnsten - 29 Jun 2005 11:04 GMT
Captain's log. On StarDate Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:39:15 +0200 received comm from
Martin Törnsten <martinot@gmail.com> on channel rec.scuba.equipment:

: Captain's log. On StarDate Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:15:55 GMT received comm from "Lee
: Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> on channel rec.scuba.equipment:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
:
: What about the weighted STA at the bottom of this page?

Forgot the link to the page: http://www.halcyon.net/mc/weights.shtml

martin törnsten

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http://martin.tornsten.com/

Lee Bell - 29 Jun 2005 15:57 GMT
> > Scott Koplan used to make a weighted single tank adapter for plate and
> > wing
> > setups.  If a STA will fit your kit, you can do it yourself if you're
> > even a
> > little handy or check with Scott to see if he, or anybody else are still
> > making them.

> What about the weighted STA at the bottom of this page?
> http://www.halcyon.net/mc/weights.shtml

Other than the fact that it's a blatant rip off of Scott's design, there's
nothing wrong with it.  I'm a bit surprised that Halcyon, who Scott used to
work for, who was more than ready to sue others for copyright infringement,
who lost their suit, is now marketing something so obviously somebody else's
design.

Thanks for the link.  I'll give Scott a call and share it with him.  I'm
sure he'll have something appropriate to say.

Lee
Lee Bell - 29 Jun 2005 16:49 GMT
> What about the weighted STA at the bottom of this page?
> http://www.halcyon.net/mc/weights.shtml
>
> Other than the fact that it's a blatant rip off of Scott's design, there's
> nothing wrong with it.

Looks like I owe Halcyon an apology.  That is, in fact, Scott's design, but
it is not a rip off.  Scott was compensated for Halcyon's use of the design.
Their use of it is fair, square and legitimate.  My apologies for thinking
otherwise.

Lee
Martin Törnsten - 29 Jun 2005 20:06 GMT
Captain's log. On StarDate Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:49:19 GMT received comm from "Lee
Bell" <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com> on channel rec.scuba.equipment:

: > What about the weighted STA at the bottom of this page?
: > http://www.halcyon.net/mc/weights.shtml
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
: Their use of it is fair, square and legitimate.  My apologies for thinking
: otherwise.

Thanks, good to hear! :-)

I currently have an aluminum plate, and instead of buying a steel one to get
more weights off my belt I thought it could be a good thing to try this STA?

martin törnsten

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http://martin.tornsten.com/

Charlie Hammond - 29 Jun 2005 21:23 GMT
>I currently have an aluminum plate, and instead of buying a steel one to get
>more weights off my belt I thought it could be a good thing to try this STA?

An alternative and, in my opinion, better option is to add a couple
weight pouches on your cam band.  Compared to either a steel plate or a
weighted STA this allows you more flexibility in the amount of weight
and exacty where it is positioned.  I wear different exposure suits
at different places and different times of the year.  It is easy to
adjust bouyancy and trim by changing the amount of weight in the two
pouches on my cam band and the two on my waist belt.

If you need the weight higher or lower than the cam band that holds your
tank to your plate, just add another cam band just for the weight pouches.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

Lee Bell - 29 Jun 2005 22:12 GMT
>>I currently have an aluminum plate, and instead of buying a steel one to
>>get
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> If you need the weight higher or lower than the cam band that holds your
> tank to your plate, just add another cam band just for the weight pouches.

Personally, I think Charlie looks like a Christmas tree with ornaments
handing everyplace, but it works well for him.  Personally, I find my steel
plate is all the weight I need when diving in salt water without thermal
protection.  Trim, is fine too.  When I add an exposure suit, I add add a
couple of weight pockets to my waist stramp and drop a few lbs in them.  I
never use more then 4 lbs.

Lee
Martin Törnsten - 30 Jun 2005 10:41 GMT
Captain's log. On StarDate Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:23:32 GMT received comm from
hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com (Charlie Hammond) on channel rec.scuba.equipment:

: An alternative and, in my opinion, better option is to add a couple
: weight pouches on your cam band.  Compared to either a steel plate or a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: adjust bouyancy and trim by changing the amount of weight in the two
: pouches on my cam band and the two on my waist belt.

Seems like a good idea for me to start with (and in time probably buy an
additional plate, made of steel).

Any special pouches or brands to recommend (my local LBS sells DiveRite, Halcyon
and OxyCheq, but I'm willing to buy from other stores if you have other brands
to recommend)?

martin

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http://martin.tornsten.com/

Rudy Benner - 30 Jun 2005 11:03 GMT
> Captain's log. On StarDate Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:23:32 GMT received comm
> from
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> martin

I like the Dive Rite pouches better.
Lee Bell - 29 Jun 2005 22:06 GMT
> I currently have an aluminum plate, and instead of buying a steel one to
> get
> more weights off my belt I thought it could be a good thing to try this
> STA?

It's a matter of personal choice and economics.  Check the price of the STA
from Halcyon versus the prices and features (all very similar) for a steel
plate from them and from other manufacturers and do what you think is most
practical.

Personally, I like having my steel plate set up all the time.  By far, the
majority of my diving is in salt water and, for me, the steel plate is just
right for salt water.  It's too heavy for single tank diving in fresh water
which is why I also purchased an aluminum plate.  YMMV.

Lee
 
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