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Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / January 2005

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Newbie advice

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Matt Cushing - 25 Jan 2005 14:17 GMT
Just looking for opinions on what direction I should take to buy my own
equipment.  I've been diving three times, all while I was in Aruba and I
got totally hooked.

So much that my parents and my wife all got together and bought me a
certification course at a dive shop near where I live.  I've done enough
activities to know that I know spit about diving and I don't want to get
gouged at the shop if I buy my stuff there.

Is it a better idea to buy it at a shop rather than buying it from the
manufacturer or online?  I am assuming that I shouldn't buy a tank since
most of the people I dove with who had their own stuff rented tanks.

Really looking for advice not only where to buy, but brands to buy as well.

Thanks
M@
ben bradlee - 25 Jan 2005 14:45 GMT
> Just looking for opinions on what direction I should take to buy my own
> equipment.  I've been diving three times, all while I was in Aruba and I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Really looking for advice not only where to buy, but brands to buy as
> well.

Where do you live?
What kind of diving will you be doing?
Do you have a local dive store or stores?
Matt Cushing - 25 Jan 2005 16:20 GMT
> Where do you live?

New Jersey

> What kind of diving will you be doing?

I don't know at this point as I am just finding out about local NJ
diving.  I guess this is the most important question eh?

> Do you have a local dive store or stores?

I am going to the class at a shop in Hillsborough, near where I live.
Should I shop prices at different shops you think, or do you think they
will mostly run around the same amount?

Thx,
M@
ben bradlee - 25 Jan 2005 17:18 GMT
>> Where do you live?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Should I shop prices at different shops you think, or do you think they
> will mostly run around the same amount?

You live in NJ but dove Aruba.  Diving local will require different gear
commitments.  So, first you need to see if you like local diving.  Get the
certification.  Rent some gear to comfortably dive in the local waters -
even if the cost is somewhat high.  After you're on your own and diving, you
will determine the extent of local diving you will be doing.  Then you can
make an intelligent gear selection.  (Short order for warm water vacations
or full menu for multi-location excursions.)

The local dive shop (LDS) is an excellent resource.  Go to where you are
comfortable and classes are offered.  Diving, generally, involves classes as
you advance.  You need to feel you've made a good choice in the training
agency and instruction.  Worry about the shop's gear prices later.

If you follow what I said above you will likely have a mask, fins, and
snorkel only for some time into your diving career.  Probably you'll charge
ahead and buy gear without heeding my advice.  In that likely event: Most
scuba gear is good quality.  Prices vary - both at the LDS and on the
Internet.  Look for package prices and discounted items.  Buy from reputable
sources.  Stay away from grey market goods.

Over the long haul, diving is expensive.  It's relatively easy to spend $10
grand on equipment.  The expense never ends and vendors develop better
products, upgrades, annually.  Everything requires service.  It's nice to be
able to look the LDS owner or employee in the face when you're asking for
help with your gear.
Matt Cushing - 25 Jan 2005 18:54 GMT
> If you follow what I said above you will likely have a mask, fins, and
> snorkel only for some time into your diving career.  Probably you'll charge
> ahead and buy gear without heeding my advice.  In that likely event: Most
> scuba gear is good quality.  Prices vary - both at the LDS and on the
> Internet.  Look for package prices and discounted items.  Buy from reputable
> sources.  Stay away from grey market goods.

I hear what you are saying.  To tell the truth, I would probably just
get mask, fins, snorkle, and a regulator I am comfortable with and do as
you suggest and rent the rest.  I don't want to fall into the trap of
buying everything all at once when I am unsure of my future dives.  I
have a neoprene suit I used in aruba and that I use to waterski and surf
in, so that was already onhand:)

> Over the long haul, diving is expensive.  It's relatively easy to spend $10
> grand on equipment.  The expense never ends and vendors develop better
> products, upgrades, annually.  Everything requires service.  It's nice to be
> able to look the LDS owner or employee in the face when you're asking for
> help with your gear.

Seems I always pick things that are not cheap:)  Thanks for all of advice.

M@
Richard Faulkner - 25 Jan 2005 20:30 GMT
>To tell the truth, I would probably just get mask, fins, snorkle, and a
>regulator I am comfortable with and do as you suggest and rent the
>rest.

You dont really need the regulator yet. Get the mask fins and snorkel,
and see how you go for a while - certainly get beyond your first
certification plus a few dives, and then think about it.

I bought the same fins as my instructor used - Mares Avanti Quattro. He
sold a different make, but recommended the ones he used.

I started in June and got to PADI AOW in 2 weeks, and I have bought the
works. After 5 weeks of holiday diving including a 1 week liveaboard,
and 37 dives, I am now going to trade in my BCD for a lighter weight one
and, whilst my regs are OK, I may have bought differently with more
patience.

On one holiday, I met 2 people who had '000's of dives, and they always
rented equipment so that they didnt have to store it, cart it around and
keep it clean.

On the liveaboard, I was exposed to, (lived with), lots of divers with
lots of experience, and I picked up lots of experience for future
purchases.

Take your time - it's exciting and you will be very tempted to buy stuff
but, if you resist for a while, you will buy better suited stuff, and
you will save money in the long run.

Signature

Richard Faulkner

Lee Bell - 26 Jan 2005 01:23 GMT
> I hear what you are saying.  To tell the truth, I would probably just get
> mask, fins, snorkle, and a regulator I am comfortable with and do as you
> suggest and rent the rest.

A regulator is a major purchase.  In fact, for most of us, it's the major
purchase.  It normally consists of a first stage, two second stages and
gauges and/or a computer.  I suggest you reconsider.

Lee
Lee Bell - 26 Jan 2005 01:20 GMT
> Do you have a local dive store or stores?

A very important question that I forgot to mention.  Ben did better.

>> I am going to the class at a shop in Hillsborough, near where I live.
>> Should I shop prices at different shops you think, or do you think they
>> will mostly run around the same amount?

Shop, but give some preference to your local shop.  It's good to have
friends on a local shop.

> The local dive shop (LDS) is an excellent resource.

Can, but might not be.  Listen intelligently for BS.  When you think you
hear it, take a step back, conform (here or somewhere else) that it is BS,
and look elsewhere.  A local shop is only an excellent resource if they're
honest.  Luckily, most are.

> Go to where you are comfortable and classes are offered.  Diving,
> generally, involves classes as you advance.  You need to feel you've made
> a good choice in the training agency and instruction.  Worry about the
> shop's gear prices later.

Excellent advice.

> Over the long haul, diving is expensive.  It's relatively easy to spend
> $10 grand on equipment.

It's possible, but not common.  It is common to spend more than a thousand
for warm water diving and somewhere around twice that for cold water diving.

Lee
nj_diver - 26 Jan 2005 14:45 GMT
NJ Scuba Divers Message Board - http://members3.boardhost.com/Modiver/
TonyP - 27 Jan 2005 03:51 GMT
>> Where do you live?

> New Jersey

north jersery? Plan on diving the wrecks? Then you better get you stuff
from the LDS. Far more gear intensive than Aruba. MUCH colder water,
MUCH lower vis. Massive wrecks that you can get lost on. You have to go
up and down the line attached to the wreck.
Better go local. Rent gear first to see if you even like diving up here
(I dive LI, NY, NJ wrecks). I love it.
Matt Cushing - 27 Jan 2005 13:54 GMT
> north jersery? Plan on diving the wrecks? Then you better get you stuff
> from the LDS. Far more gear intensive than Aruba. MUCH colder water,
> MUCH lower vis. Massive wrecks that you can get lost on. You have to go
> up and down the line attached to the wreck.
> Better go local. Rent gear first to see if you even like diving up here
> (I dive LI, NY, NJ wrecks). I love it.

Nope, central.  I have my first class for my certification on the 12th,
and the center recommends you buy gear from them.  Nothing hardcore
though, just mask, fins, snorkle, boots, and gloves (and maybe a hood).
 I am not going to invest a crudload of money into anything that I can
rent until I find out what I like to do more.  I have a feeling that I
am going to want to wreck dive here quite a lot, but I wouldn't want to
spend all the money on cold water gear if I am going to mostly just to
it once a year or so on vacation someplace warmer.

Have to wait and see, but I am going to get the minimum I need and rent
from there.

My dad did LI diving about 20 years ago and did quite a lot off fire
island I believe.
M@
TonyP - 28 Jan 2005 00:15 GMT
>> north jersery? Plan on diving the wrecks? Then you better get you
>> stuff from the LDS. Far more gear intensive than Aruba. MUCH colder
>> water, MUCH lower vis. Massive wrecks that you can get lost on. You
>> have to go up and down the line attached to the wreck.
>> Better go local. Rent gear first to see if you even like diving up
>> here (I dive LI, NY, NJ wrecks). I love it.

> Nope, central.  I have my first class for my certification on the 12th,
> and the center recommends you buy gear from them.  Nothing hardcore
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> spend all the money on cold water gear if I am going to mostly just to
> it once a year or so on vacation someplace warmer.

If you are only going to dive once or twice a year, don't bother buying
anything other than mask, fins, and snorkel. IF you are going to dive
the wrecks off Jersey, then cold water gear is what you will need/rent.
Again, far more gear intensive and far more difficult diving than Aruba.

> My dad did LI diving about 20 years ago and did quite a lot off fire
> island I believe.

I have dove a lot of wrecks off Fire Island. The most popular one is the
USS San Diego. The Oregon is another spectacular wreck dive.
Robert Doyle - 25 Jan 2005 15:33 GMT
Hi Matt,

Welcome aboard!!! I have been diving the Great Lakes for about 2 years and have been purchasing my own stuff as I have gone. Probably the best advice is to buy more than you need right now. By that I mean, don't just buy a cheap reg now and think that you will buy better later. It doesn't take very long to realize how valuable your equipment is. I won't be taking my advanced until this summer but I have been diving with a computer for about a year. A computer at 60 feet seems like overkill but I am very comfortable with it now and when I go deeper I have all the confidence in the world in my equipment. So the best is to pick up things as you go. Maybe your dive shop rents equipment and you can try different setups so you will know what you like and don't.

Use ebay alot!!!!!!!! Prices on ebay are the best and the information that you need is right there. I have purchased regs, tanks, BCs and suits on there. My local dive shop doesn't like it and I get flack from them when they service my equipment. Tough. Make sure you do your research on the company doing the selling. I have had zero problems, but I also exercise lots of caution.

As far as your own tank goes, you will need to get your own if you are doing a lot of local diving. I have three and could use three more. If you have to travel or fly to dive then you probably don't need one.

Hope this helps.
Robert
Lee Bell - 26 Jan 2005 01:25 GMT
> Hi Matt,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> company doing the selling. I have had zero problems, but I also exercise
> lots of caution.

I do not recommend buying on line until you have the experience to know
exactly what you want and fully understand what you do and don't get when
you buy on line.  You don't normally know that early in your diving
development.

Lee
Joe English - 25 Jan 2005 18:51 GMT
> Just looking for opinions on what direction I should take to buy my own
> equipment.  I've been diving three times, all while I was in Aruba and I
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thanks
> M@

Online is fine, I'll buy somethings that way.  Personally, I have
developed a pretty good relationship with the local dive shop guy.  He
gives me a pretty good deal on stuff - especially if paying cash.  I
find it a lot easier to deal with someone in person when I have a
problem with something bought.  That being said several years ago I
bought a mask, the mailman delivered to my door - not the mail box as he
always does.  One of my dogs got to it and destroyed it.  Of course the
mail delivery would take no responsibility,  I have told them to never
deliver packages to the house.  Ocean Divers replaced the mask.  Above
and beyond the call of duty.
Lee Bell - 26 Jan 2005 01:14 GMT
> Just looking for opinions on what direction I should take to buy my own
> equipment.  I've been diving three times, all while I was in Aruba and I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Really looking for advice not only where to buy, but brands to buy as
> well.

Good question(s).

Before we can give you detailed advice, we're going to have to know where
home is or, more precisely, what the harshest conditions you'll dive in are.
What's best for Aruba and other warm water locations is probably not best
for waters cold enough to require significant thermal protection.  Still,
there are some things that are common to all diving:

First things first.  You'll need some equipment of your own and you may as
well start off right.  Most courses expect you to have your own mask,
snorkel, fins and weight belt.  Buy your snorkel first.  Don't spend a lot
of money on it.  A large bore snorkel (which almost all are these days) with
no bells and whistles is just fine.  If you spend $20, you've probably gone
overboard on the snorkel.  Check the fit, making sure it's comfortable in
your mouth with the tube alongside your left ear.  Divers wear their
snorkels on the left side since their regulator is on the right.  Before
long, you'll leave your snorkel in your dive bag while diving, but that
comes later.  Take your snorkel with you when you buy your mask.  There are
a few important things about masks.  You want one made with quality
materials and tempered glass lens(es).  Don't let yourself be talked into a
mask with a plastic lens.  Other than quality, the fit of the mask is
everything and I do mean everything.  Get some help from a shop that has
lots of masks and try them on with your snorkel in your mouth.  A regulator,
or snorkel, in the mouth changes the shape of your face slightly.  Depending
on the mask, it might be enough to make the mask leak and that will ruin
your whole dive day.  You should be able to put the mask on your face,
inhale very slightly (note the very) and have it stay there without the
strap.  Like I said, get help.

To chose fins, you first have to know if they're going to be used in cold
water.  If you're going to dive cold water, you need fins with straps and
booties to go with them.  If you're only going to dive relatively warm
water, as I do, then you can consider full foot pocket fins as well.  If
you're told full foot pocket fins are only for snorkeling, don't say
anything, just find somebody else to get help from.  Those that believe this
are either clueless, dishonest, or both.  Full foot pocket fins are about
half the cost of those with straps and transfer energy from the foot to the
water more efficiently, at least the best of them do.  I like Mares TRE fins
for most diving.  My Quatro Power fins are good for diving when strong
acceleration is critical, but they take strong legs to drive them and aren't
worth a darn for snorkeling.  The TRE fins do everything well.  I like the
Mares fins for strap fins too.  This time, it's Quatros.  There are other
options, including Jet Fins.  Jet Fins are very popular with those who dive
in caves.  They're good for preventing silt outs specifically because they
don't move a lot of water when used.  They're stiff enough to make finning
backwards easier too, but they're not the only fins that work for this.
More non cave divers prefer other fins than Jet Fins, but the Jets have
their following even in the non cave, non wreck set.  Try various styles and
see what you like best.

For your actual scuba equipment, go slow.  Try a variety of equipment and
styles until you've got a good idea what you prefer.  Then, and only then,
buy.  That goes for your regulator, alternate, Buoyancy device and computer.
Speaking of a dive computer, I suggest buying a computer rather than gauges,
that it be nitrox capable, but otherwise, as simply and inexpensive as
possible.

When you're ready to buy your own equipment, stick with name brands.  Scuba
Pro, Apex and US Divers are the brands I'm most familiar with.  You'll get
recommendations for other brands, some of which will probably be quite good
also.  Stay away from proprietary brands and read the warranty data for
anything you consider.  Regulators get serviced annually (generally) and
some warrantees cover parts.  Others don't.  If you buy used, you'll save
money in the short run, but probably not over the long term.  Parts
warrantees don't usually transfer with ownership.

Until you know why a lot of people don't care for Suunto and Cochran
computers, don't buy either.  When you do know, and understand the issues,
you may or may not consider them significant.

You're correct about tanks.  Unless you're going to dive close to home a
lot, rent tanks.  The rental cost is usually not much more than the cost to
fill tanks of your own and probably pretty close to break even if you
consider the need to have tanks inspected annually and hydro tested every 5
years.  I use my own tanks because I do dive near home a lot, because I have
a preference for tanks that are not easily rented locally, because I don't
want to have to wait for a shop to open when I'm ready to dive or rush to
return a tank before the shop closes and because I sometimes dive while
cruising in my own boat.  My reasons may not apply to you.

Lee
Richard Faulkner - 26 Jan 2005 03:06 GMT
>Until you know why a lot of people don't care for Suunto and Cochran
>computers

I didnt wait for that little gem <g> Why dont people care for Suunto
computers?

Signature

Richard Faulkner

Matt Cushing - 26 Jan 2005 13:21 GMT
Wow Lee.  Talk about ask and ye shall receive!  Thanks for all of the
tips.  I'll let you know how it goes next weekend for my first class.

M@
Dan Bracuk - 26 Jan 2005 03:18 GMT
Matt Cushing <matt@cushingonline.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Is it a better idea to buy it at a shop rather than buying it from the
:manufacturer or online?

If fit is important, definitlely.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
John A - 26 Jan 2005 17:27 GMT
Matt,
by now you have gotten tons of advise, which I have not read all of
but if you are still reading these here is my .02,

1.  rent/try as much different gear as possible before you buy;
2.  high end quality gear will last a long time with little change,
dont try to save a buck
3.  All dive shops are not the same, some are fantastic and some are no
better than used car lots;
4.  99% of my gear has come from one shop I have delt with since 1975,
and in the long run I have saved money over the "on-line shops" but I
am in the minority here, most are'nt as lucky as I;

enjoy.

John

Signature

John A

Matt Cushing - 26 Jan 2005 18:25 GMT
Cool, thanks for chiming in.  I'm glad that I asked, and I am glad that
so many people were willing to offer their opinion.

I'm going through a dive shop in Belle Meade/Hillsborough New Jersey, so
I will let everyone know how they measure up.

M@

> Matt,
> by now you have gotten tons of advise, which I have not read all of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> John
Dan Bracuk - 26 Jan 2005 22:55 GMT
Matt Cushing <matt@cushingonline.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:Cool, thanks for chiming in.  I'm glad that I asked, and I am glad that
:so many people were willing to offer their opinion.

Did anyone accuse you of trolling or tell you to look it up on google
like that other, far less freindly group to which you subscribe?

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Matt Cushing - 27 Jan 2005 13:59 GMT
> Matt Cushing <matt@cushingonline.com> pounded away at his keyboard
> resulting in:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Did anyone accuse you of trolling or tell you to look it up on google
> like that other, far less freindly group to which you subscribe?

Heh, no, not so far.  I think that was more a case of me asking
something that if I had looked three headers above the bottom of the
list I would have seen a detailed post about it, and again several days
before that, and another one before that etc etc.

I did find out that the shop has you buy equipment before you start the
class, but it's the mask, fins, snorkle, gloves, and boots.  Don't have
to buy a bcd or a regulator or anything like that.  I talked to a guy I
know locally who does a lot of diving and he said that the place I am
going to is pretty fair and the prices are fairly reasonable.

Once I decide what kind of diver I will be (NJ/NY shore, or Warm water
vacation diver) I will start doing more research.  Up to this point, I
only have three dives under my belt:)

M@
Richard Faulkner - 27 Jan 2005 15:07 GMT
>I did find out that the shop has you buy equipment before you start the
>class, but it's the mask, fins, snorkle, gloves, and boots.

In a previous post you also said that the shop recommends that you buy
from them. Perhaps they would say that, but you should feel free to buy
from wherever you want.

What happens if you start the course and decide you dont like diving, or
even complete the course and decide the same. You are now stuck with a
bundle of gear you neither want nor need.

Alternatively, you might buy stuff that you decide isnt right.

IMHO the shop/school should supply ALL of the equipment for the course,
and "forcing" you to buy the basics suggests that they are only
interested in reducing their own inventory costs, and selling you stuff
you may not need.

I may be wrong, but it doesnt seem like a reputable way of introducing
people to scuba diving.

Signature

Richard Faulkner

Lee Bell - 27 Jan 2005 16:18 GMT
> IMHO the shop/school should supply ALL of the equipment for the course,
> and "forcing" you to buy the basics suggests that they are only interested
> in reducing their own inventory costs, and selling you stuff you may not
> need.

For the most part, your logic's OK, but reality doesn't match it.  Most
courses required students to provide their own mask, fins and snorkel.  Some
also expect the student to provide their own weightbelt and weights.  There
are actually some fairly good reasons for this.

Masks are not cheap and have to fit just right.  While a relatively large
store may have a wide selection of sizes and shapes for sale, no store wants
to maintain that level of inventory for students, particularly when there is
little or no rental demand outside of the classroom.  While fins don't come
in as many sizes, they too come in a wide variety of styles and shapes.  The
same inventory and demand issue applies.  There's even less rental demand
for snorkels than for masks and fins.  The cost of thermal protection,
tanks, regulators, lights, gauges/computers and probably some other
equipment I've forgotten to mention can be at least partly offset by ongoing
rentals.

> I may be wrong, but it doesnt seem like a reputable way of introducing
> people to scuba diving.

What is or is not reputable is often closely linked to what is the industry
standard.  Where I live and dive, the standard is that each student provides
his own mask, snorkel and fins.

Let's also keep in mind that it's quite possible that the shop wants the
students to buy there at least partly so that they can help them make good
decisions.  Not all shops recommend equipment just because it has the
highest profit margin.

Lee
Richard Faulkner - 27 Jan 2005 21:57 GMT
>> IMHO the shop/school should supply ALL of the equipment for the course,
>> and "forcing" you to buy the basics suggests that they are only interested
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>equipment I've forgotten to mention can be at least partly offset by ongoing
>rentals.

MMM! I have only been exposed to 3 scuba shop/schools, and each provided
the full kit for classes and rentals, so I agree that I have not got a
representative sample.

I can also confirm that after a couple of sessions, (independently), and
knowing that we liked it, both myself and my partner bought mask, fins
and snorkels.

However, I also met people at the Tenerife school who travelled with no
kit, and rented wherever they were, (at least that's what they did
there, and what they said they did everywhere).

I think if I had been asked to spend the best part of £100 on something
I might not have liked, I may have had second thoughts, (and I'm not
short of the odd hundred quid or so). In fact, if I were a school, I
dont think I would want to take the chance of losing some customers due
to the possible abortive investment required.

 You have a lot more experience than me, so I'm not disagreeing, just
musing on the situation.

>> I may be wrong, but it doesnt seem like a reputable way of introducing
>> people to scuba diving.
>
>What is or is not reputable is often closely linked to what is the industry
>standard.  Where I live and dive, the standard is that each student provides
>his own mask, snorkel and fins.

>Let's also keep in mind that it's quite possible that the shop wants the
>students to buy there at least partly so that they can help them make good
>decisions.

I didnt have a problem with this until I read that the OP was also
required to provide the basic bits of his own kit - it just seemed like
a nice little earner, and could be perceived as such by potential
customers.

>  Not all shops recommend equipment just because it has the
>highest profit margin.

Couldnt agree more.

Signature

Richard Faulkner

Dan Bracuk - 28 Jan 2005 02:35 GMT
Richard Faulkner <richard@estate.demon.co.uk> pounded away at his
keyboard resulting in:
:What happens if you start the course and decide you dont like diving, or
:even complete the course and decide the same. You are now stuck with a
:bundle of gear you neither want nor need.

Then you have snorkelling gear.  What's the big deal?

Having said that, many resorts and some dive shops offer a Discover
Scuba thingie.  It may be free you may have to pay for it.  Either
way, these are great.  All the gear is provided and if there are any
show-stoppers, (can't clear your ears for example), you find out
before spending money on lessons or gear.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
Dan Bracuk - 27 Jan 2005 22:59 GMT
Matt Cushing <matt@cushingonline.com> pounded away at his keyboard
resulting in:
:I did find out that the shop has you buy equipment before you start the
:class, but it's the mask, fins, snorkle, gloves, and boots.  

That's fairly normal.

Dan Bracuk
If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
TonyP - 27 Jan 2005 03:48 GMT
> Just looking for opinions on what direction I should take to buy my own
> equipment.  I've been diving three times, all while I was in Aruba and I
> got totally hooked.

It happens a lot.

> So much that my parents and my wife all got together and bought me a
> certification course at a dive shop near where I live.  I've done enough
> activities to know that I know spit about diving and I don't want to get
> gouged at the shop if I buy my stuff there.

It can happen. Choose shop carefully.

> Is it a better idea to buy it at a shop rather than buying it from the
> manufacturer or online?  I am assuming that I shouldn't buy a tank since
> most of the people I dove with who had their own stuff rented tanks.
>
> Really looking for advice not only where to buy, but brands to buy as well.

Where will you be diving?
Buying online might get you a cheaper price, but if you don't know what
to buy, does it make a difference?
 
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