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Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / February 2005

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O2: Round up or Round Down

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George Cathcart - 29 Nov 2004 21:44 GMT
In my NAUI Advanced Nitrox class, I was taught that I should always
round the percentage of oxygen up to the next whole number when
calculating MOD, PO2, EAD, OTU, CNS, etc. In other words, if the
analyzer says I've got 31.8 percent O2, I should calculate on 32.

My Suunto Vyper Manual, however, says I should always round down to
minimize the risk of DCS.

My instructor's advice frankly makes more sense, because the gas we're
concerned about is oxygen, and underestimating oxygen in Nitrox is more
likely to cause a problem than underestimating nitrogen.

Or am I wrong? If not, why would Suunto recommend rounding down?

Thanks,

gc
Lee Bell - 29 Nov 2004 23:46 GMT
> In my NAUI Advanced Nitrox class, I was taught that I should always round
> the percentage of oxygen up to the next whole number when calculating MOD,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Or am I wrong? If not, why would Suunto recommend rounding down?

There are some assumptions involved either way.  How you, personally, assess
the risks, determines how you will decide.  Your instructor is correct.  So
is Suunto.  It's not a bad idea to consider both in your dive plan.  If you
don't plan your dives, it's not a bad idea to adjust your level of
conservatism (yours, not your computer's) to account for all of the risks.

For the average nitrox diver, it's probably six of one, half a dozen of the
other.  If you set your MOD for a PPO2 of 1.4, you're not going to get in
much trouble no matter which way your round.  Much the same thing applies to
DCS risk.  If you're in the green according to your computer, you're pretty
safe, any way you look at it.

Since you mentioned an advanced Nitrox course, you may want to be a bit more
careful.  If pushing your decompression rate up by using higher PPO2, you're
pushing your CNS risk up with it.  There's more than one answer to the
question of where the PPO2 becomes critical, but most feel comfortable that
1.6 is far enough.  There have been CNS hits reported at 1.6 and less as
well as people that pushed things well beyond that for brief periods.  Of
course, if you're doing this kind of diving, you don't care what Suunto has
to say.  You're not using their computer to plan your dive anyway.

There's one more thing worth thinking about.  Suunto's nitrox computers are
known for being quite conservative.  It may be that they've adjusted enough
for PPO2 issues to make DCS a more critical measure.  That is not true of
all computers.

Lee
Geoff - 30 Nov 2004 02:15 GMT
>In my NAUI Advanced Nitrox class, I was taught that I should always
>round the percentage of oxygen up to the next whole number when
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>gc

Could it be because the Suunto doesn't calculate O2 exposure and only
models N2 for DCS purposes?

In this case you round UP to calculate your EAD, MOD and PO2 and O2 time in
order to plan your dive and reduce the risk of CNS O2 toxicity. Now it's up
to you to dive your plan.

You would round DOWN to enter the EAN into the computer since it will tell
you on that basis when you run the risk of entering into a decompression
scenario. This would minimize your risk of DCS.
George Cathcart - 30 Nov 2004 10:52 GMT
> Could it be because the Suunto doesn't calculate O2 exposure and only
> models N2 for DCS purposes?

Thanks, Geoff,

Good guess, but the Suunto Vyper does calculate O2 exposure, both OTU
and CNS, and it graphs the one that is closest to maxed. It also tracks
ND time constantly. And it does both quite conservatively. MOD for 32%
at PO2 of 1.4, for example, is 107 feet, not the widely accepted 111.

If I round up, plan my dive and dive my plan, I'll be well within the
safety limits of the Nitrox tables and the computer, I'm pretty sure.

Thanks,

gc
Lee Bell - 30 Nov 2004 12:10 GMT
> Good guess, but the Suunto Vyper does calculate O2 exposure, both OTU and
> CNS, and it graphs the one that is closest to maxed. It also tracks ND
> time constantly. And it does both quite conservatively. MOD for 32% at PO2
> of 1.4, for example, is 107 feet, not the widely accepted 111.

111 is widely accepted because it's the accurately calculated MOD for 32% O2
at a PPO2 of 1.4.  ((1.4/.32)-1)x33=111.4

> If I round up, plan my dive and dive my plan, I'll be well within the
> safety limits of the Nitrox tables and the computer, I'm pretty sure.

If you round up, plan your dive and dive your plan, you have no need of a
computer.

Lee
Karl Denninger - 30 Nov 2004 14:21 GMT
>In my NAUI Advanced Nitrox class, I was taught that I should always
>round the percentage of oxygen up to the next whole number when
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>gc

Suunto overstates O2% by 1% already internal to their software.  If you
set for a 31% FO2, the unit actually computes for a 32% FO2.  

Try it - you will find that a 32% FO2 toxes you at 107' (PO2 = 1.4) In
reality the MOD is 111 - which just happens to be what you get if you set
the FO2 to 31%.

HOWEVER, and this is a big "if", Suunto does NOT overstate the FN2 by the
same 1%!  So if you round up, you both get toxed early by the Vyper AND
you understate your FN2 exposure, which is not good from a DCS standpoint.

Second, be aware that the Vyper, irrespective of the PO2 limit you set,
refuses to respect that limit and radically (like 10x NOAA tables)
accelerates your CNS loading if you exceed what IT thinks of a PO2 of 1.4
- with its rounding up.

The result of this is that the unit will tox you inside of 20 minutes at
107' on a 32% mix, which is pure bullshit.  Oh, and due to rounding errors
at 107' you won't get a PO2 alarm for 1.4 either......

The ugly part is that if you set an allowed PO2 of 1.5, you STILL get
toxed by the computer at 107' in the same less-than- 20 minutes.

The Vytec does NOT have this same stupidity included.

I have emailed Suunto about the Vyper's behavior.  They think its just fine
even though it is in no way documented that they have included this nice
"acceleration feature" - and there is no way to turn it off.

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Lee Bell - 30 Nov 2004 20:34 GMT
> Suunto overstates O2% by 1% already internal to their software.  If you
> set for a 31% FO2, the unit actually computes for a 32% FO2.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> even though it is in no way documented that they have included this nice
> "acceleration feature" - and there is no way to turn it off.

I hope they think it's fine enough to lose customers because of it.  I know
two instructors who tried Vypers and won't use them again.  That means that
every student they advice won't either.  I presume you won't and I know I
won't.  Somewhere along the line, the nice little gauge mode feature isn't
going to be enough to offset the quirks this computer has.

Lee
Jason O'Rourke - 01 Dec 2004 09:05 GMT
>I hope they think it's fine enough to lose customers because of it.  I know
>two instructors who tried Vypers and won't use them again.  That means that
>every student they advice won't either.  I presume you won't and I know I
>won't.  Somewhere along the line, the nice little gauge mode feature isn't
>going to be enough to offset the quirks this computer has.

eh, I've had one for years, it's outlasted the 3 dive computers I had prior
(one sherwood, two oceanics).  The software seems quirky, but the engineering
is much better.  

Flat tables are always available if it's too limiting.  

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Lee Bell - 01 Dec 2004 11:33 GMT
in message news:cok1g9$1hti$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
>>I hope they think it's fine enough to lose customers because of it.  I
>>know
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Flat tables are always available if it's too limiting.

I've not seen anybody criticize Suunto's longevity.  It's the unit's
software that's at the heart of reported problems.  Perhaps you are the kind
of recreational diver that is so conservative you don't have to worry about
the Suunto's added conservatism.  I'm not.

Lee
Jason O'Rourke - 02 Dec 2004 07:42 GMT
>I've not seen anybody criticize Suunto's longevity.  It's the unit's
>software that's at the heart of reported problems.  Perhaps you are the kind
>of recreational diver that is so conservative you don't have to worry about
>the Suunto's added conservatism.  I'm not.

Getting old and crockety, Lee?  If I were looking to pick a fight needlessly,
I might say I'm the kind of diver that doesn't rely on the computer to make
decisions for him.  And I do like it to keep giving me information, even if I
dare to do something silly like touch the backlight.  (Try that on a dataplus)

As for the conservative nature, the Oceanic (pelagics) were not much better on
the second dive.  First dive sure, second one, not at all.  You might also be
mistaking time and depth as the primary measure of diver risk.  So Florida.  
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Lee Bell - 02 Dec 2004 09:35 GMT
>>I've not seen anybody criticize Suunto's longevity.  It's the unit's
>>software that's at the heart of reported problems.  Perhaps you are the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Getting old and crockety, Lee?

Not getting, I'm pretty much there.

> If I were looking to pick a fight needlessly,
> I might say I'm the kind of diver that doesn't rely on the computer to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> dare to do something silly like touch the backlight.  (Try that on a
> dataplus)

I do on occasion.  What's the problem with touching the backlight?

My first issue with the Suunto computers is with the way they handle nitrox
and the fact that they automatically give me false information.  A computer
that says that 107 fsw is the MOD for a PPO2 of 1.4 is doing just that.
Added to that is the fact that the computer is noticably more conservative
than the ones I've been using, without problems, for a lot of years.  I
prefer the straight facts, or straigher facts, and a level of conservatism
that I add for myself.  Your statement about not relying on the computer to
make decisions for you suggests you should feel the same.  The final problem
I have with the unit is how it handles any PPO2 over 1.4.

I considered the Suunto computers.  If it were not for the software issues,
I'd be using one today.

> As for the conservative nature, the Oceanic (pelagics) were not much
> better on
> the second dive.  First dive sure, second one, not at all.  You might also
> be
> mistaking time and depth as the primary measure of diver risk.  So
> Florida.

Time and depth are the primary measures of my diving risk.  Most, if not
all, of the other factors have long since been addressed.

Lee
Geoff - 02 Dec 2004 19:45 GMT
>My first issue with the Suunto computers is with the way they handle nitrox
>and the fact that they automatically give me false information.

All the more reason for schools to continue to teach tables and for divers
to continue to consult tables routinely when planning dives, isn't it?

I can see where Suunto might have erred on the side of caution, choosing to
mislead divers into more conservative profiles than those currently
indicated by the current tables. This would be a perfect defense against
liability claims, since they can always say the diver got bent or toxed
because he ignored his computer which, by design, is ultra-conservative.
Karl Denninger - 02 Dec 2004 22:20 GMT
>>My first issue with the Suunto computers is with the way they handle nitrox
>>and the fact that they automatically give me false information.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>liability claims, since they can always say the diver got bent or toxed
>because he ignored his computer which, by design, is ultra-conservative.

Not at all.

If the computer is screaming at you that you are about to tox, you may
well be provoked into making an unsafe ascent.

Since it will not STOP screaming until you drop the PO2 below 0.5, you
will be ascending a looong way.  You will also have an impetus to do it
rather quickly, since the computer is yelling at you that you are about to
die.

If you then embolize or get bent, I bet you could have an absolute f.cking
field day with Suunto on this one, since their claim that you were about
to tox is so far out in left field based on the available science and
"acceptable table limits" (NOAA) that its laughable.

BTW, I filed a CPSC notice on this, and Suunto brushed it off.  That's
cool - the purpose of the CPSC notice was so that the first poor bastard
who gets hurt believing Suunto's bullshit can sue the living f.ck out of
them and they can't claim they didn't know it was an issue, since they had
to respond to the CPSC request and that is all a matter of public record.

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Jason O'Rourke - 03 Dec 2004 07:33 GMT
>BTW, I filed a CPSC notice on this, and Suunto brushed it off.  That's
>cool - the purpose of the CPSC notice was so that the first poor bastard
>who gets hurt believing Suunto's bullshit can sue the living f.ck out of
>them and they can't claim they didn't know it was an issue, since they had
>to respond to the CPSC request and that is all a matter of public record.

Where are all the bodies?  

You'll have to look long and hard for those that dare to exceed 1.4, but
then stupidly embolize themselves because the computer told them to.  And
if they want to sue, I'll be happy to see them burn in court.  
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Karl Denninger - 03 Dec 2004 15:05 GMT
>>BTW, I filed a CPSC notice on this, and Suunto brushed it off.  That's
>>cool - the purpose of the CPSC notice was so that the first poor bastard
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>then stupidly embolize themselves because the computer told them to.  And
>if they want to sue, I'll be happy to see them burn in court.  

Its not a matter of actually exceeding 1.4.

As pointed out, you can sit at 107' with a 1.4 setpoint on 32% - you're
actually not at 1.4.  The alarm does not ring.  But the CNS bell will ring
in about 15 minutes.

Now is this an extreme and contrived example?  Sure.  One foot down and
the PO2 alarm goes off.  But - the point being that the real MOD is 111'
for 32%.  Anywhere between 107-111 you're justified in ignoring the PO2
alarm on the Suuntos.  

Ignoring the CNS tox warning is another thing entirely; unless you KNOW
that the algorythm is screwed (and Suunto DOES NOT warn you of this in
their manual!) you might well BELIEVE that one.

I've yet to see a body too, but I still maintain that its a f.cked-up
implementation and needs to be fixed.

Among other things it makes their CNS/OTU tracking useless for
repetetive dives - its not often you will run up against those limits,
but you could in a liveaboard situation.

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Lee Bell - 03 Dec 2004 02:02 GMT
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 09:35:41 GMT, "Lee Bell"
> <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> All the more reason for schools to continue to teach tables and for divers
> to continue to consult tables routinely when planning dives, isn't it?

You're preaching to the choir.  I'm the one that believes tables are a
better learning tool.  Having said that, no, it's not a reason simply
because this particular quirk is related to the % or oxygen in the gas
rather than the time you can use it.

> I can see where Suunto might have erred on the side of caution, choosing
> to
> mislead divers into more conservative profiles than those currently
> indicated by the current tables. This would be a perfect defense against
> liability claims, since they can always say the diver got bent or toxed
> because he ignored his computer which, by design, is ultra-conservative.

Suunto computers do that too, but the issue you included above is not one of
time, but one of MOD calculation.  The computer calculates a mod that is
incorrect for the O2 percentage and max PPO2 entered.

Lee
Karl Denninger - 03 Dec 2004 03:08 GMT
>> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 09:35:41 GMT, "Lee Bell"
>> <leebell@ix.remove.netcom.com>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>Lee

Its not just that Lee.

Its also that the Vyper (and Cobra), but not the Vytec, will grossly
accelerate CNS loading if you exceed what it thinks is a 1.4 PO2 - VASTLY
beyond the NOAA recommended limits.

As in the computer will tox you in roughly 15 minutes at 107' on a 32%
mix.

Try it in "SIMDIVE" mode.

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Lee Bell - 03 Dec 2004 14:15 GMT
>>> I can see where Suunto might have erred on the side of caution, choosing
>>> to mislead divers into more conservative profiles than those currently
>>> indicated by the current tables. This would be a perfect defense against
>>> liability claims, since they can always say the diver got bent or toxed
>>> because he ignored his computer which, by design, is ultra-conservative.

>>Suunto computers do that too, but the issue you included above is not one
>>of
>>time, but one of MOD calculation.  The computer calculates a mod that is
>>incorrect for the O2 percentage and max PPO2 entered.

> Its not just that Lee.
>
> Its also that the Vyper (and Cobra), but not the Vytec, will grossly
> accelerate CNS loading if you exceed what it thinks is a 1.4 PO2 - VASTLY
> beyond the NOAA recommended limits.  As in the computer will tox you in
> roughly 15 minutes at 107' on a 32% mix.

So I've heard.  I don't disagree at all.  Depending on how you look at it,
there are three reasons I don't like what the Vyper and Cobra do, incorrect
MOD calculation for a given O2 %, the way they treat O2 when the PPO2 gets
beyond what it calls 1.4 and the overall conservative nature of their N2
loading calculation.  Any one of the above is enough to send me looking
somewhere else, as it did.

BTW, it was the wrist mounted watch/computer models that I considered.  I
believe they share the calculations with the Vyper and Cobra.  I don't know
anything about the Vytec.

> Try it in "SIMDIVE" mode.

Can't do it.  I don't, and won't, have one.

Lee
Karl Denninger - 03 Dec 2004 15:09 GMT
>> Its not just that Lee.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>loading calculation.  Any one of the above is enough to send me looking
>somewhere else, as it did.

I don't mind the N2 loading computations.  Extra time in the water doesn't
bother me all that much.  Being chased out by a bullshit warning is an
entirely different matter.

>BTW, it was the wrist mounted watch/computer models that I considered.  I
>believe they share the calculations with the Vyper and Cobra.  I don't know
>anything about the Vytec.

The Cobra is a hose-mount, obviously.

The Vytec doesn't have the acceleration problem and it also has an
"attenuation" mode which reduces its N2 loading computations (primarily
the microbubble stuff) to something that some find more reasonable.  

I personally find the Vytec fairly closely models a VPM-B cut table
decompression schedule (in total time, not in ascent profile) for many
Nitrox deco dives, and it can gas-switch, so I can actually use it on
those dives.  It works well for my uses - and if I need a bottom timer
only, I can switch it to gauge mode.

>> Try it in "SIMDIVE" mode.
>
>Can't do it.  I don't, and won't, have one.
>
>Lee

I like the Vytec, despite the limitations that it does have.  Its not a
perfect computer, but its been rugged and put up with my abuse without any
hint of trouble.  It is also easily adapted to a bungie wrist strap -
necessary in my view to prevent my losing it due to a pin failure

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Lee Bell - 03 Dec 2004 16:22 GMT
> I don't mind the N2 loading computations.  Extra time in the water doesn't
> bother me all that much.  Being chased out by a bullshit warning is an
> entirely different matter.

I guess I'm just one of those people that thinks my car should stop when the
guage reads empty.  I like my information as staight as possible.  I'm
pretty conservative in my own diving.  Even when I'm a bit into deco, I try
to get out of my computer's caution zone before heading up the last 15 feet
or so.  I don't need, or want a computer that adds more than the normal
amount of conservatism without asking me first.

> I personally find the Vytec fairly closely models a VPM-B cut table
> decompression schedule (in total time, not in ascent profile) for many
> Nitrox deco dives, and it can gas-switch, so I can actually use it on
> those dives.  It works well for my uses - and if I need a bottom timer
> only, I can switch it to gauge mode.

Are we talking trimix or just multiple flavors of nitrox?  Yes, I know I
could look it up, but it's more fun and a lot easier to ask.

Lee
Karl Denninger - 03 Dec 2004 21:44 GMT
>> I don't mind the N2 loading computations.  Extra time in the water doesn't
>> bother me all that much.  Being chased out by a bullshit warning is an
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Lee

Just multiple flavors of Nitrox.

Up until now there's only been one wreck (the Ozark) that's in trimix
territory, and its beyond my comfort zone (330fsw to the sand, roughly).

Everything else around here is in the 150 and shallower category, and I'm
ok on Nitrox for those.  Maybe not ideal, but definitely a LOT cheaper
than putting Helium into the mix given the amount of diving that I do.

With the Oriskany coming to town, this is going to change.  The hanger
deck will be at 150, and that's a penetration dive, where having my wits
fully straight will be important.  My strategy for keeping at least some
reasonable balance in my checking account is looking more and more like
buying a CCR.

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bullshark - 03 Dec 2004 18:32 GMT
>Its also that the Vyper (and Cobra), but not the Vytec, will grossly
>accelerate CNS loading if you exceed what it thinks is a 1.4 PO2 - VASTLY
>beyond the NOAA recommended limits.

[Dear uninformed (not you Karl): MOD is a mathematical Identity in Nitrox. It's not negotiable]
Since the computer is black box and they FAIL at calculating MOD, it makes you wonder what else they've screwed?

safe diving,

bullshark
Lee Bell - 03 Dec 2004 20:05 GMT
Well put.

_______________________________
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>>Its also that the Vyper (and Cobra), but not the Vytec, will grossly
>>accelerate CNS loading if you exceed what it thinks is a 1.4 PO2 - VASTLY
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> bullshark
Rich Lockyer - 04 Dec 2004 09:07 GMT
>>Its also that the Vyper (and Cobra), but not the Vytec, will grossly
>>accelerate CNS loading if you exceed what it thinks is a 1.4 PO2 - VASTLY
>>beyond the NOAA recommended limits.
>
>[Dear uninformed (not you Karl): MOD is a mathematical Identity in Nitrox. It's not negotiable]
>Since the computer is black box and they FAIL at calculating MOD, it makes you wonder what else they've screwed?

But technically they haven't.
They've added conservatism, just like every computer maker does.

So, if you have no computer and are diving tables, how do you plan the
dive if your mix is at 32.5%?

Dunno about you, but I would calculate the MOD for 33% (107), and run
the NDL for 32%.

Given that you can't put 32.5% into any computer (not that your
analysis is going to be repeatably that accurate anyways), it is only
logical that the computer would "pad" the MOD.

IMHO, the only place Suunto screwed up is the overly conservative OTU
loading when you actually reach 1.4.
It still falls under the guise of "added conservatism", but they've
gone to 1/3rd of NOAA exposures.

The good thing about it is that it does not penalize you, and can be
safely ignored so long as you are properly trained and dive following
your training WRT O2 exposures.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
Karl Denninger - 04 Dec 2004 22:59 GMT
>>>Its also that the Vyper (and Cobra), but not the Vytec, will grossly
>>>accelerate CNS loading if you exceed what it thinks is a 1.4 PO2 - VASTLY
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>It still falls under the guise of "added conservatism", but they've
>gone to 1/3rd of NOAA exposures.

Uh, no, they've gone to about 1/10th of NOAA exposures.

NOAA single exposure limit at 1.4 is 150 minutes.  Suuntos is about
<FIFTEEN> minutes.

1/3rd I could understand.  1/10th is not "more conservative."  

Its just plain broken.

>The good thing about it is that it does not penalize you, and can be
>safely ignored so long as you are properly trained and dive following
>your training WRT O2 exposures.

Except that the computer incessantly bitches at you from that point until
you get your PO2 under 0.5, and its CNS/OTU computation from the point you
reach 1.4 PO2 onward is useless due to their buggery of this particular
situation.

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Rich Lockyer - 05 Dec 2004 18:46 GMT
>Uh, no, they've gone to about 1/10th of NOAA exposures.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Its just plain broken.

Oops... I was thinking the 45 for 1.6.
How fast does the Vyper limit out on 1.6?

>Except that the computer incessantly bitches at you from that point until
>you get your PO2 under 0.5

That's why I wear a hood :)

Seriously, I can't hear the thing anyways unless I'm NOT wearing my
hood.
I do set the PO2 limit to 1.6, and it does not sound an alarm when I
hit 1.4
It would sound an alarm if I violated 15 minutes at it's MOD, but I
don't cut my planning THAT close to limits.  For christ's sake...
we're talking about a depth different of 4 feet here.  There's nothing
to see at 111 that you can't see from 106 that actually requires a
full 15 minutes deeper than 107.

>, and its CNS/OTU computation from the point you
>reach 1.4 PO2 onward is useless due to their buggery of this particular
>situation.

Ya... so it's useless.  I'm not using it for O2 computation anyways.
3 dives a day for a week to NDL at 1.4 and you're not going to come
near any real limits.

I agree that it's a legitimate bitch, but it falls back to it not
being a real-world problem... just a nitpick point.
Blame it on lawyers.

 --- Rich
 http://richlockyer.tripod.com/
Karl Denninger - 05 Dec 2004 21:57 GMT
>>Uh, no, they've gone to about 1/10th of NOAA exposures.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Oops... I was thinking the 45 for 1.6.
>How fast does the Vyper limit out on 1.6?

Anything at or over 1.4 limits out in roughly 15 minutes.

>>Except that the computer incessantly bitches at you from that point until
>>you get your PO2 under 0.5
>
>That's why I wear a hood :)

ROFL!

>Seriously, I can't hear the thing anyways unless I'm NOT wearing my
>hood.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It would sound an alarm if I violated 15 minutes at it's MOD, but I
>don't cut my planning THAT close to limits.  

No, it will (and does) sound the CNS alarm in 15 minutes if you set the PO2
to 1.6 and then violate <1.4> for more than 15 minutes.

>>, and its CNS/OTU computation from the point you
>>reach 1.4 PO2 onward is useless due to their buggery of this particular
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>being a real-world problem... just a nitpick point.
>Blame it on lawyers.

I blame it on shitty design - lawyers didn't have anything to do with THAT
much conservatism.

I think its a bug, frankly - otherwise the Vytec would do the same thing (it
doesn't.)

--
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Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) Internet Consultant & Kids Rights Activist
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Lee Bell - 05 Dec 2004 02:04 GMT
>>[Dear uninformed (not you Karl): MOD is a mathematical Identity in Nitrox.
>>It's not negotiable]
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But technically they haven't.
> They've added conservatism, just like every computer maker does.

Technically, they certainly have.  The MOD for 32% at 1.4 ata is not 107.
bullshark - 30 Nov 2004 14:28 GMT
>My instructor's advice frankly makes more sense, because the gas we're
>concerned about is oxygen, and underestimating oxygen in Nitrox is more
>likely to cause a problem than underestimating nitrogen.

It doesn't make any difference at all unless your dive plans include square profiles
at MOD for NDL.

You don't dive Nitrox the way they teach theory in class.
Forget all the optimum mix crap. it was a waste of your time.

safe diving,

bullshark
safe diving,

bullshark
George Cathcart - 30 Nov 2004 18:21 GMT
>>My instructor's advice frankly makes more sense, because the gas we're
>>concerned about is oxygen, and underestimating oxygen in Nitrox is more
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> bullshark

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on my question. I figured out what
was going on shortly before Karl posted his answer, when I realized that
the Vyper's MOD for EANx 32 is 107', which is actually the MOD for 33%
on the tables.

Interestingly, I think everyone who responded was right, except the one
person who wondered if the Vyper only tracks nitrogen and not oxygen
loading. I know Bullshark is right, too. I would just hate to get locked
out of a dive because the computer is too conservative, and the Vyper is
pretty conservative. I rarely do dive square profiles, although on some
wrecks it does happen.

I think the most important thing I got out of the Nitrox class was the
reinforcement of the importance of dive planning and planned diving.
Yeah, I knew it from OW, AOW and rescue, but Nitrox definitely
emphasizes the planning piece.

Again, thanks for the good thoughtful replies.

But how come nobody said anything about guns, sex or Michael Moore???

gc
Lee Bell - 30 Nov 2004 20:38 GMT
> But how come nobody said anything about guns, sex or Michael Moore???

We're not done yet.
Lee Bell - 30 Nov 2004 20:37 GMT
> Forget all the optimum mix crap. it was a waste of your time.

For pretty much all of the diving we normally do here.
A Sailor - 10 Feb 2005 02:54 GMT
Would you believe they're both right? If you plan your PPO2 based on 32% instead
of 31 (or 31.8) you have increased your margin of safety. If you do your tables
(or computer) at 31%, then you've reduced your allowable bottom time and again
increased your margin of safety. IMHO Unless you're diving right to the limits,
the 1% difference shouldn't matter in real life.

>In my NAUI Advanced Nitrox class, I was taught that I should always
>round the percentage of oxygen up to the next whole number when
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>gc
 
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