Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / October 2004
DIR/Halcyon BP slots
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Ronald May - 20 Oct 2004 22:08 GMT Hi, I have been spending some time choosing my first dive equipment and recently bought a Halcyon Alloy BP and 27lb pioneer wing. Setting up the harness, among other problems, I found that the straps leave the top of the plate and point towards the centre of the head, and when wearing it, the straps loop up on one side and pull into one side of the slot because of the 40 degree change of angle they have to make. I have a work-around for the problem but find it strange that these slots aren't positioned better. The straps would be pointing in a better direction for donning also. I haven't dived with a backplate setup before or seen one in use for that matter but the main concern I have in advance is the donning/doffing technique to use in the water with the added movement restriction of a wetsuit. On the PADI course, using a bc jacket with loosened straps, you could sit on the opened BC and put both arms through. Will this work OK? I saw mention of an overhead technique regarding BP/harness donning.
Cheers - Ron
Rudy Benner - 20 Oct 2004 23:07 GMT > Hi, > I have been spending some time choosing my first dive equipment and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Cheers - > Ron The Halcyon Plates are not the best ones available. Take a look at these.
http://www.oxycheq.com/backplates.html
You want a stainless steel plate, and a weighted single tank adapter. The extra weight comes off your weight belt, you really don't want to have all of your ballast in a ditchable configuration, especially in a wetsuit. A steel tank improves the situation even more. A steel tank is lighter and is less buoyant, so you gain twice.
What are you using for a weight belt? I like the DUI weight system. A regular belt slides off my a.s.
http://www.dui-online.com/bc_wt.htm
Leave the shoulder straps a bit loose for now. How it fits on land is irrelevant to how it fits in the water.
You might consider taking off that crotch strap as well. You can always put it back later.
It takes some practice.
Others will offer lots of advice, this topic has been thoroughly beaten to death many times, we are about due for another round. It will be an improvement over politics and guns.
Flame on.
R.
Tony Howard - 21 Oct 2004 07:13 GMT What a lot of cobblers.
With a few notable exceptions, most backplates are very similar (many are copies of others). The main differences come in how the harness is constructed and laid out.
The only thing that I would say is that the Halcyon is one of the more expensive, but there is nothing wrong with it.
If Ronald had not already bought his BP & harness then the Oxycheq may have been a viable alternative, but there is absolutely no need for him to waste money on changing something that is almost identical.
I have a Halcyon steel backplate, my own manufactured aluminium backplate and single tank adapter, and two wings, a 55Lb Halcyon and a 40Lb Oxycheq (for single tank warm water diving).
They are all fine products and each can work with any combination of each other.
look at http://www.gasdiving.co.uk/pages/misc/kit/harness_2.htm and http://dir-diver.com/en/equipment/backplate_adjustment.html for setting the harness up properly IRRELEVANT of make and model of backplate.
If the harness is not correctly set-up then it will be uncomfortable and the set-up will either move around too much or be so tight as to stop you reaching the valve(s).
>> Hi, >> I have been spending some time choosing my first dive equipment and [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > R. Ronald May - 21 Oct 2004 10:53 GMT > The Halcyon Plates are not the best ones available. Take a look at these. > > http://www.oxycheq.com/backplates.html A slight improvement, the top of the plate is a bit wider and the uppermost slots angle down to the outside a bit. I think the 45 degree slots need to be moved closer to the centre of the plate to get an ideal exit angle though. The DUI weight harness in your link has the shoulder straps pointed in the right direction. I am just wondering why the BP harness shoulder straps aren't following this angle and let them sit flat and point to the place where they will be when you wear the harness. It would be easier to find the arm openings behind your back if the straps were splayed out a bit - wouldn't it?
> You want a stainless steel plate, and a weighted single tank adapter. The > extra weight comes off your weight belt, you really don't want to have all > of your ballast in a ditchable configuration, especially in a wetsuit. A > steel tank improves the situation even more. A steel tank is lighter and is > less buoyant, so you gain twice. Yes, I will probably make a steel plate sometime. How can a steel tank be lighter if it is 4-5 lbs more negative than alloy when both are empty? This could only be because the tank outer displacement volume is smaller for the same air capacity. What is the weight difference? My empty alloy (80 I think) weighs 33.5lbs
> What are you using for a weight belt? I like the DUI weight system. A > regular belt slides off my a.s. Still looking. The omly good thing about the alloy STA-less BP and the Pioneer wing is that is really light for travelling. I would still need something like tank pockets and a belt to fill up with lead at the destination. A stiff pocket that can be bolted on the lower two or three boltholes of the plate and attached to the lower harness belt just to stop them swinging about would give a fixed adjustable system. I dont know if it is necessary to have a weight belt system, but if you were to take the bc off underwater you would become too positive. The weight integrated BC people obviously dont worry about this.
> http://www.dui-online.com/bc_wt.htm > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It takes some practice. Will do. Cheers
> Others will offer lots of advice, this topic has been thoroughly beaten to > death many times, we are about due for another round. It will be an [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > R.
 Signature Ronald May 1 Canon St. St Albans Christchurch 1 NZ Ph 3668779 ron.may@paradise.net.nz or rmay@i4free.co.nz
Grot - 22 Oct 2004 19:07 GMT >Leave the shoulder straps a bit loose for now. How it fits on land is >irrelevant to how it fits in the water. > >You might consider taking off that crotch strap as well. You can always put >it back later. DO NOT remove the crotch strap, it is an integral piece of the backplate system.
>It takes some practice. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >R. Lee Bell - 23 Oct 2004 08:27 GMT >>You might consider taking off that crotch strap as well. You can always >>put >>it back later. > > DO NOT remove the crotch strap, it is an integral piece of the > backplate system. Do not listen to anybody that claims to know just what is right for you. Give it a try without the crotch strap. You might find you like it.
Grot - 23 Oct 2004 09:52 GMT >>>You might consider taking off that crotch strap as well. You can always >>>put [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Do not listen to anybody that claims to know just what is right for you. >Give it a try without the crotch strap. You might find you like it. Exactly my point, advise given is free, its up to you to take it or not. Removing pieces here and there, adding bits, changing the system will introduce additional complexities. There are reasons why the crotch strap is there, as there are reasons why the webbing is threading the way it is.
Take a fundamentals class or get with a group or club that dives the backplate. Things will be a lot clearer.
Popeye NCAT3 - 23 Oct 2004 11:22 GMT >From: Grot grot@euronet.nl
>Exactly my point, advise given is free, its up to you to take it or >not. Removing pieces here and there, adding bits, changing the system >will introduce additional complexities. Removing grossly unnecessary items is not "introducing additional complexities", it's removing them.
>There are reasons why the crotch strap is there, as there are reasons why the webbing is
>threading the way it is. Then why don't you give us the reasons, or learn to think for yourself.
I have over 600 dives on a backplate, and have only used a crotch strap once.
The first time, of course, then I took it off.
>Take a fundamentals class or get with a group or club that dives the >backplate. Things will be a lot clearer. Using your own ability to observe and conclude, and not being a mindless parrot, will make things clearer. Popeye You have to know, not fear, that some day you are going to die. Until you know this and embrace it, you are useless. Tyler Durden
Lee Bell - 23 Oct 2004 12:49 GMT >>> DO NOT remove the crotch strap, it is an integral piece of the >>> backplate system. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > crotch strap is there, as there are reasons why the webbing is > threading the way it is. If that was your point, perhaps you should have said that instead of simply preaching to others.
Feel free to explain how removing a crotch strap introduces complexity but having one that is not needed doesn't . . . if you think you can.
You bet there are reasons why the crotch strap is there. I happen to know the reason, which allows me to decide when it's needed and when it's not. I removed mine 3 years ago. Any time you'd like to compare complexity between your kt and mine is OK by me.
> Take a fundamentals class or get with a group or club that dives the > backplate. Things will be a lot clearer. Are you going to pay for it or do you get paid for it.
I started diving in 1962. I was diving caves in the mid to late 60's, before DIR and before GUE. I used a plate system then and one of the first things I did was remove the crotch strap, the one that added unnecessary complexity. I dive a plate system now, with the crotch strap removed, the crotch strap that is unnecessary for my diving and, if left on, would only add complexity.
Feel free to share your qualifications to define what is best for me, but if the extent of it is that you took a DIRF course, don't waste your time. Nobody here is impressed.
Lee
Grot - 23 Oct 2004 13:59 GMT >>>> DO NOT remove the crotch strap, it is an integral piece of the >>>> backplate system. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Feel free to explain how removing a crotch strap introduces complexity but >having one that is not needed doesn't . . . if you think you can. Removing the crotch strap would loosen the whole rig up. Without the strap in place I would have to tighten up the webbing around the arms which would introduce additional problems.
>You bet there are reasons why the crotch strap is there. I happen to know >the reason, which allows me to decide when it's needed and when it's not. I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >the extent of it is that you took a DIRF course, don't waste your time. >Nobody here is impressed. This advice was not targeted at you but at the person who is asking questions about the plate.
>Lee Lee Bell - 23 Oct 2004 23:20 GMT > Removing the crotch strap would loosen the whole rig up. Without the > strap in place I would have to tighten up the webbing around the arms > which would introduce additional problems. If I'm not mistaken, three people diving the system have indicated that they've removed their crotch straps without problems. For me, and I assume for the others, the waist strap is the key attachment. It's what holds things in place. I've never seen a properly adjusted crotch strap tight enough to hold things in place except, perhaps for a heavily weighted person using the BCD for surface flotation. I, and I suspect the others that prefer to be without the crotch strap, aren't that heavily weighted. The kit stays in place just fine without it.
If you tow something, all bets are off. That's the one thing I know of that can't be done as well without a crotch strap.
> This advice was not targeted at you but at the person who is asking > questions about the plate. Fair enough. Peace.
Lee
nospam@all.please.net - 24 Oct 2004 00:18 GMT > If you tow something, all bets are off. That's the one thing I know of > that can't be done as well without a crotch strap. Is the CS used as a trailer hitch?
Lee Bell - 24 Oct 2004 01:36 GMT >> If you tow something, all bets are off. That's the one thing I know of >> that can't be done as well without a crotch strap. > > Is the CS used as a trailer hitch? Of sorts. That's what the front and rear D rings are there for.
Brian Nadwidny - 24 Oct 2004 05:42 GMT
> If you tow something, all bets are off. That's the one thing I know of that > can't be done as well without a crotch strap. I did a scooter course with Andrew Georgitsis this summer. There is a better way to tow that doesn't involve hanging on to the crotch strap.
Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscuba.com
Lee Bell - 24 Oct 2004 13:09 GMT >> If you tow something, all bets are off. That's the one thing I know of >> that >> can't be done as well without a crotch strap.
> I did a scooter course with Andrew Georgitsis this summer. There is a > better way to tow that doesn't involve hanging on to the crotch strap. Don't keep it a secret. There are people in the group that could use the information.
Interesting that Andrew is the one to teach something different. Does this mean he's departing from the true path of DIR or has the entire movement adopted a new technique?
Lee
Brian Nadwidny - 24 Oct 2004 20:45 GMT > >> If you tow something, all bets are off. That's the one thing I know of > >> that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Don't keep it a secret. There are people in the group that could use the > information. I should've clarified it. I should've said "When towing people there is a better way that doesn't involve using a crotch strap". Obviously for towing a gibbled scooter then a crotch strap is necessary. For towing people basically the tow-ee gets between the legs of the tow-er and hooks in with his armpits with the tow-er's knees. Of course this basically puts the tow-ee's head right up the tow-er's a.s but hey, what's a little closeness between friends?
> Interesting that Andrew is the one to teach something different. Does this > mean he's departing from the true path of DIR or has the entire movement > adopted a new technique? Lee, if you only knew what is going on...
Brian Edmonton, Alberta www.mossmanscuba.com
Lee Bell - 25 Oct 2004 03:23 GMT > I should've clarified it. I should've said "When towing people there is > a better way that doesn't involve using a crotch strap". Obviously for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > basically puts the tow-ee's head right up the tow-er's a.s but hey, > what's a little closeness between friends? I too should have been more specific. I never intended to address towing people. I didn't even think of it. I was, of course talking about towing equipment. Those diving a mile or so back into a cave tend to tow a lot of stuff.
>> Interesting that Andrew is the one to teach something different. Does >> this >> mean he's departing from the true path of DIR or has the entire movement >> adopted a new technique? > > Lee, if you only knew what is going on... I used to try to keep up. All it ever got me was insults and, now that George is occupied with the family business, the insults aren't even very good.
Lee
Popeye NCAT3 - 25 Oct 2004 02:39 GMT >From: Grot grot@euronet.nl
>Removing the crotch strap would loosen the whole rig up. Without the >strap in place I would have to tighten up the webbing around the arms >which would introduce additional problems. Wrong.
Instead of parroting others, why don't you try this, insread of being told how you should think, and get back to us.
>>Feel free to share your qualifications to define what is best for me, but if > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >This advice was not targeted at you but at the person who is asking >questions about the plate. The point stands.
Popeye We train young men to drop fire on people, yet their commanders won't allow them to write f.ck on their airplanes because it's obscene. Col Kurtz
Jon C - 25 Oct 2004 03:56 GMT >>>>>DO NOT remove the crotch strap, it is an integral piece of the >>>>>backplate system. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > strap in place I would have to tighten up the webbing around the arms > which would introduce additional problems. It's kinda cute how you just make stuff up.
Jammer Six - 25 Oct 2004 05:12 GMT > It's kinda cute how you just make stuff up. Didn't Blackie do the same thing with his console or something?
 Signature "We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001
Popeye NCAT3 - 23 Oct 2004 11:18 GMT >From: Grot grot@euronet.nl >Date: 10/22/2004 2:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >DO NOT remove the crotch strap, it is an integral piece of the >backplate system. Throw the hunk of sh.t away.
It's an encumberance. Popeye You have to know, not fear, that some day you are going to die. Until you know this and embrace it, you are useless. Tyler Durden
Ronald May - 24 Oct 2004 11:16 GMT > >From: Grot grot@euronet.nl > >Date: 10/22/2004 2:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > You have to know, not fear, that some day you are going to die. > Until you know this and embrace it, you are useless. Tyler Durden Hi, I'm all for making things simpler if it is workable. It says something good for the harness system if it does work well without the CS. There are what looks to me like very experienced people posting to this group and I can draw quite good conclusions. It sounds like one possible scenario where the crotch strap might be good is at the surface when the weights are on the diver instead of on the backplate. For my alloy BP 'travel rig' I will try to attach pockets mainly supported by the backplate that can be filled with the most common weights available. The Zeagle Ziptouch system looks good, but It looks to me that they use special ditchable weights. I was considering running a 2" strap from high on the BP, under the arm and down to a suitably positioned hipring. This would let 2" webbing pockets mount in a higher place than the waist belt and the weight would mainly pull on the plate. If the pockets have velcro tops like pocket weight belts, They might have to be of the verticly mounting type. Anyone know of such a thing? Or what is the materials (fabric and thread) one would use to make such items?
Cheers
 Signature Ron
Lee Bell - 24 Oct 2004 13:07 GMT > Hi, I'm all for making things simpler if it is workable. > It says something good for the harness system if it does work well > without the CS. It depends on your diving. For some, the crotch strap is nice to have. For others, it's a complication that offers little in return. One of the points to this thread is that each diver needs to consider options and adjust his/her kit to his/her own diving and preference.
> There are what looks to me like very experienced people posting to > this group and I can draw quite good conclusions. Be careful to consider context. What a cold water diver posts doesn't necessarily apply well to a warm water diver. What cave, cavern and/or wreck divers post may not be best for an open water diver. Also stay alert for absolutes (rarely all that absolute) and for things that become important only because of some other equipment choice.
> It sounds like one possible scenario where the crotch strap might be > good is at the surface when the weights are on the diver instead of > on the backplate. It still depends, but yes, that's one of the times a crotch strap can be convenient. Keep in mind, however, that an awful lot of people, the majority by far, do not have a crotch strap. They seem to do fine.
> For my alloy BP 'travel rig' I will try to attach pockets mainly > supported by the backplate that can be filled with the most common > weights available. Several of us have followed a similar path.
> The Zeagle Ziptouch system looks good, but It > looks to me that they use special ditchable weights. I'm not familiar with the Zeagle system, but ditchable weights are not necessarily a bad thing. It is nice, however, to be able to decide between easily ditched and not so easily ditched weight. You might not like the results of accidentally, or even deliberately ditching all your weight at depth.
> I was considering running a 2" strap from high on the BP, under the > arm and down to a suitably positioned hipring. > This would let 2" webbing pockets mount in a higher place than the > waist belt and the weight would mainly pull on the plate. Unless you really need a lot of weight, this is more a complication than a solution. I'll start by saying that I Like small pockets threaded onto straps on the harness. My system, which is pretty much DIR standard in this respect, gives me a lot of options for weight placement. In warm water, my 6 lb stanless plate is all the weight I need. When I do need weight, I thread a couple of small trim pockets onto my waist belt. 4 lbs is the most I normally carry. If I needed more, or needed it better located, I can thread the same kind of pocket above the shoulder D rings and/or on either of the two tank straps. The point is, I've added my weight in the simplest way I could come up with, it's all ditchable (but not quick release) and almost nothing I've added is even noticable during the dive. The final benefit is one you suggested. All my weight is hooked to my plate. None of it is hooked to me.
There's a downside to this that you need to be very aware of. You have to be sure you have sufficient lift to float your kit alone. If I were to put a lot of lead on my plate, I'd need a different wing. The one I prefer has only 18 lbs of lift. When you figure my tank is a few lbs negative when full, my plate and single tank adapter are also about 8 lbs negative, I don't have much to add before my wing won't float my kit. Were I to add extra weight, inflate the wing and toss the kit into the water, I'd better be ready to catch it before it reaches my freediving limit.
> If the pockets have velcro tops like pocket weight belts, They > might have to be of the verticly mounting type. Anyone know of such a > thing? Dive Rite and Halcyon both make them. I'm reasonably certain other manufacturers do too. I like the mesh bags because they are durable and because they drain and dry quickly.
Lee
Popeye NCAT3 - 25 Oct 2004 02:50 GMT >From: Ronald May ron.may@paradise.net.nz
> I was considering running a 2" strap from high on the BP, under the > arm and down to a suitably positioned hipring. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Or what is the materials (fabric and thread) one would use to make > such items? I put Diverite trim pockets in my waist belt, and zip stripped them to the plate.
Works like a million bucks.
This is a picture of my old pockets:
http://www.tekdivegirl.com/popeyepics/Gear%20Flicks/IMG_0284.jpg
The new ones are in the same place, 90 degrees different, and zip stripped to the backplate.
Popeye We train young men to drop fire on people, yet their commanders won't allow them to write f.ck on their airplanes because it's obscene. Col Kurtz
Jammer Six - 25 Oct 2004 05:11 GMT > Works like a million bucks. Typical sailor, underfunded with low aspirations...
No wonder your gear is so f.cked up.
 Signature "We're going to rush the hijackers." -Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001
Popeye NCAT3 - 25 Oct 2004 10:37 GMT >From: Jammer Six jammer@invalid.oz.net >Date: 10/25/2004 12:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >No wonder your gear is so f.cked up. I only had a million.
I couldn't afford Halcyon.
Popeye We train young men to drop fire on people, yet their commanders won't allow them to write f.ck on their airplanes because it's obscene. Col Kurtz
Jon C - 21 Oct 2004 22:40 GMT > Hi, > I have been spending some time choosing my first dive equipment and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Cheers - > Ron Sounds to me like it's not adjusted well for you. If the straps are too long they do this shitty loopy thing. If it's adjusted correctly it looks like this: http://www.baue.org/images/galleries/view_photo.php?set_albumName=equipment&id=p lateheight http://tinyurl.com/4oj9q
Ronald May - 22 Oct 2004 11:00 GMT > Sounds to me like it's not adjusted well for you. If the straps are too > long they do this shitty loopy thing. If it's adjusted correctly it > looks like this: > http://www.baue.org/images/galleries/view_photo.php?set_albumName=equipment&id=p lateheight > http://tinyurl.com/4oj9q Jon, zoom in a bit on this picture and you will see that the outer edges of the straps are loose, while the inner edges are doing all the work at the point where they leave the plate. Actually these ones look like they are fraying a bit as well.
Cheers
 Signature Ron
Grot - 22 Oct 2004 19:12 GMT >> Sounds to me like it's not adjusted well for you. If the straps are too >> long they do this shitty loopy thing. If it's adjusted correctly it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >the work at the point where they leave the plate. >Actually these ones look like they are fraying a bit as well. The webbing will tend to fray in most of the place where it touches the backplate. My plate is identical to this, has been used for about 300 dives and does not yet need the webbing replaced. It is frayed slightly in various places but it still very intact.
>Cheers Popeye NCAT3 - 23 Oct 2004 11:24 GMT >From: Grot grot@euronet.nl
>The webbing will tend to fray in most of the place where it touches >the backplate. My plate is identical to this, has been used for about >300 dives and does not yet need the webbing replaced. It is frayed >slightly in various places but it still very intact. The fraying indicates a poorly finished, low quality plate.
What brand is yours? Popeye You have to know, not fear, that some day you are going to die. Until you know this and embrace it, you are useless. Tyler Durden
Lee Bell - 23 Oct 2004 12:53 GMT >>The webbing will tend to fray in most of the place where it touches >>the backplate. My plate is identical to this, has been used for about >>300 dives and does not yet need the webbing replaced. It is frayed >>slightly in various places but it still very intact.
> The fraying indicates a poorly finished, low quality plate. Not to mention indicating a diver too lazy, or afraid, to fix what is wrong for himself. One of my Halcyon plates, the aluminum one, came nicely deburred. Scott and I deburred one of my stainless plates ourselves. Halcyon, who's customer service is better than the initial quality on some of their products, fixed the other one for free.
> What brand is yours? I think you know the answer.
Lee
Grot - 23 Oct 2004 13:49 GMT >>>The webbing will tend to fray in most of the place where it touches >>>the backplate. My plate is identical to this, has been used for about [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Lee Its not Halcyon but from all the bp divers I have seen the webbing is alway wearing somewhat. My plate does not seem to be overly rough around the edges but I could be mistaken.
Lee Bell - 23 Oct 2004 23:15 GMT > Its not Halcyon but from all the bp divers I have seen the webbing is > alway wearing somewhat. My plate does not seem to be overly rough > around the edges but I could be mistaken. It's not so much the rough edges as it is the sharp corners of the slots. If yours is stainless, a sanding drum, air motor or Dremel Tool and a bit of elbow grease will take that edge off. I'm not sure I'd want to try to do the same on an aluminum plate. I'd be afraid of damaging it. I know how hard stainless is. I'm not as knowledgeable about working on aluminum.
Lee
Grot - 22 Oct 2004 19:18 GMT >Hi, > I have been spending some time choosing my first dive equipment and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > donning/doffing technique to use in the water with the added > movement restriction of a wetsuit. Donning the backplate over the head with your bottle attached is risky and unnecessary. As long as you can fit two or three fingers between you and your shoulder straps you will be able to get in and out. All it takes is a bit practice and for you to be comfortable with your gear.
> On the PADI course, using a bc jacket with loosened straps, you > could sit on the opened BC and put both arms through. Will this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Cheers - >Ron
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