Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
ArticlesDiving DestinationsLearning Scuba DivingMarine LifeMiscellaneous
Discussion GroupsGeneralScuba EquipmentScuba LocationsAustralian ScubaUK Scuba
DirectoryScuba Clubs

Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / October 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Foot Cramps

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Dan - 19 Oct 2004 15:31 GMT
I have been diving for more than 25 years and have been using Scuba
Pro Jet Fins for the past 20.  Lately, I seem to be getting cramps in
my feet.  Most diving is tropical.  Any suggestions?
Cpt. Dale Bennett - 19 Oct 2004 18:54 GMT
> I have been diving for more than 25 years and have been using Scuba
> Pro Jet Fins for the past 20.  Lately, I seem to be getting cramps in
> my feet.  Most diving is tropical.  Any suggestions?

I'm sorry to say that your foot cramps are most likely related to getting
older.  Lack of exercise may also be a problem.  You say that most of your
diving is tropical.  Do you swim with fins between dive trips?  The muscles
you primarily use finning are not the ones you use walking.  You can use
more flexible fins, but you will lose the power of your Jet Fins.  Try to do
some fin swimming in between trips to keep up your fitness.
Signature

Safe diving,

Dale Bennett
Captain Dale's, Inc.
Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters

Dan - 20 Oct 2004 17:53 GMT
Thanks for the follow up.  I do get a lot of exercise, but not in the
water.  Biking and Nordic-track weekly.  I also swim several times a
week in the Florida Aquarium as an underwater janitor, but without
fins, just boots.  Sounds like that might be the problem.  Guess I'll
try more flexible fins next to see if that makes a difference.  thanks
again
Charlie Hammond - 20 Oct 2004 18:07 GMT
>Thanks for the follow up.  I do get a lot of exercise, but not in the
>water.  Biking and Nordic-track weekly.  I also swim several times a
>week in the Florida Aquarium as an underwater janitor, but without
>fins, just boots.  Sounds like that might be the problem.  Guess I'll
>try more flexible fins next to see if that makes a difference.  thanks
>again

In the tropics hydration is also important.  Drink plenty of water and juice.  
Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks,
as well as alcohol.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

ajtessier - 22 Oct 2004 00:38 GMT
Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on
my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit.

>>Thanks for the follow up.  I do get a lot of exercise, but not in the
>>water.  Biking and Nordic-track weekly.  I also swim several times a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks,
> as well as alcohol.
ajtessier - 22 Oct 2004 00:41 GMT
excuse my Microsoft spell check "odor"
> Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect
> on my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks,
>> as well as alcohol.
Jer - 22 Oct 2004 03:55 GMT
> Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on
> my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit.

The way I understand it, coffee (among other beverages) contains
caffeine, which is a diuretic, which causes your body to shed liquid,
which carries away electrolytes, thereby starving the muscles of what
they need to convert fuel to energy.  I am not a physician, obviously,
but I've seen this before, and when diving, I limit myself to one cup of
coffee early in the morning.  I avoid cramps and the 'odder'.

http://www.betterbodz.com/library/muscle_cramps.html

Signature

jer  email reply - I am not a 'ten'

chilly - 22 Oct 2004 09:15 GMT
> > Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on
> > my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.betterbodz.com/library/muscle_cramps.html

Wouldn't hurt to have a banana every morning for brekkie, either.
Jer - 22 Oct 2004 12:42 GMT
>>>Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Wouldn't hurt to have a banana every morning for brekkie, either.

Yeah, and mangos, I just gotta have mangos.

Signature

jer  email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Lee Bell - 22 Oct 2004 14:07 GMT
> Yeah, and mangos, I just gotta have mangos.

You are welcome to my share.  Yuk.

Lee
Dag Deberitz - 22 Oct 2004 09:28 GMT
> Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on
> my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks,
> > as well as alcohol.

Hi Ladies & Gangsters!

Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive
fins. Examples hereof are cramps in the calf - & wrist muscles as well as in
the foot blades. Before 1991 I was very often a victim of such cramps.
Especially if I dove more than once a day.
I do not dispute that the above mentioned suggestions of cutting back on
coffein/certain bewerages also might help. My fysician-doctor told me that
most divefins acts as a prolongation of the foot itself,- causing stress to
the muscles mentioned above because our feet isn't shaped to undergo stress
of this kind. At the samt time FORCE FINS was introduced in Norway and I was
in fact lucky to be one of the first 3 divers in Norway trying them out. As
you may have heard,- Force Fins acts as a prolongation of your ancle
bones, - not your foot blades,- and won't cause stress to the muscles in
questions in the same ways as ordinary flippers. You will even be able to
wriggle your toes wearing Force Fins! ;o) You can find an article on this
topic that I wrote some years ago on Force Fin's hope page here:
http://www.forcefin.com/FF_PAGES/FF_wisewords/testimonials/dag_deberitz.htm.
I have no interests in the Force Fin Company whatsoever, but wanted to tell
fellow divers with leg- & foot cramps how I got rid of my problem. Good luck
and safe diving to you all.

Signature

Best regards
Divepartner Diving School
Dag Deberitz
dagbritzDELETE@online.no
P.B. 25, N-3291 Stavern, NORWAY

DIVE-O-PHONE: +47 922 35777
Visit my albums covering scuba diving, UW-photographing, cats and others:
http://community.webshots.com/user/busdiver_/
            \!/
         (@ @)
----oOO-(_)-OOo------------OOOO0000oooo...._([;]@-[=<

Charlie Hammond - 25 Oct 2004 14:58 GMT
>Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive
>fins.
..
{sigh} -- another exagerated "advertisement" for Force Fins (r).

Force Fins have good and bad points.  Although I do not like them,
I have tried over a number of years to collect objective data.
Here it is:

                   Force Fins (r) vs. "Conventional" Fins

         Copyright (c) 1997 by Charles W Hammond, Bedford  NH  USA
     Copyright (c) 1998,1999 by Charles W Hammond, Boca Raton  FL  USA
        Copyright (c) 2000 by Charles W Hammond, Boca Raton  FL  USA
        Copyright (c) 2001 by Charles W Hammond, Boca Raton  FL  USA

     All  rights  reserved.  May be copied for personal use or for non-
     commercial  distribution  provided  that  this  copyright   notice
     remains  with all copies and that no charge is made for copying or
     distribution.

         DISCLAIMER:   SCUBA diving can be dangerous if you are not
         properly trained.  DO NOT attempt to purchase or  use  ANY
         SCUBA  equipment unless you are a properly certified diver
         or a diving student.  This information reflects my opinion
         only; it is not sanctioned by any certifying agency. Other
         opinions will differ.

     Force Fins (r) are a style of dive fin that is radically different
     from "conventional" fins, such as U  S  Divers  BLADES  or  Mares'
     PLANA   AVANTI  QUATTRO  models.   While  conventional  fins  have
     developed to have large, long blades that are fairly stiff,  Force
     Fins  are relatively small and made from a very flexible material.
     Their slightly cupped shape provides rigidness on the  down  (foot
     moving  forward),  power  stroke  and  flexes  to  provide minimal
     resistance on the up, recovery stroke.

     Following are some points of comparison for Force Fins.

     SIZE -- Force Fins are much smaller than conventional fins. Packed
     in a dive bag, two or three pairs  of  Force  Fins  should  occupy
     about  the same space as a single pair of conventional fins.  This
     is a definite advantage for the  traveling  diver,  especially  if
     traveling to remote areas where baggage may be severely limited.

     WALKING  ON  LAND  -- The small size and flexibility of Force Fins
     makes it very easy to wear them while walking on land or on  board
     boat.

     PRICE  --  All  fin prices vary greatly, but it appears that Force
     Fins are commonly priced at about  twice  the  price  for  a  good
     quality pair of conventional fins. Some Force Fins models may sell
     for much more that that.

     Force  Fins  claims  that  their  price  reflects  more  expensive
     materials and individual attention during manufacturing.

     COMFORT  --  Their  small  size  and  flexibility makes Force Fins
     comfortable to wear.  Comfort in actual use is more subjective and
     less clear. Many Force Fins users love their "comfort". Others who
     have tried them don't like the feel they give in actual use.

     Force  Fins  users  often  claim that Force Fins eliminate cramps.
     However, various persons (including  myself)  report  experiencing
     cramps  while  diving  with  Force Fins.  It appears that for some
     users Force Fins will reduce the tendency  to  cramp;  others  may
     find no such reduction.

     It  is  worth considering that it you do get a cramp, the standard
     pull-up-on-the-tip-of-the-fin technique  for  stretching  out  the
     cramp may be less effective with Force Fins.

     NOTE ADDED 07-Oct-1998

     In   article  203362  of  the  internet  newgroup,  rec.scuba,  on
     01-Oct-1998, Bob Evans, President of Force  Fins  and  Force  Fins
     designer wrote the following about cramping:  [reformated]

         The  main  cause of cramping from fins is the relationship
         of the foot pocket to the blade that forces the foot in an
         extended toe point on the forward kicking motion, then, to
         keep a proper orientation of the blade a diver  must  hold
         that toe point for the backward kicking motion. This keeps
         the calf contracted throughout  the  kicking  cycle.   Its
         pretty  obvious  that  you are going to cramp when holding
         muscles contracted throughout an exercise cycle.

         Although  we  solved  this  problem over a decade ago, the
         magazines cannot share this valuable information until  it
         is  an  industry  wide  movement  in  design.  That hasn't
         happened yet, but you will start to see other problems for
         divers we

     Although  not  explicitly  stated,  it  is  clear that the claimed
     solution is the design of the Force Fins foot pocket and  not  the
     fexible nature of Force Fins.
     
     END OF NOTE ADDED 07-Oct-1998

     SPEED -- Here is an area where opinions differ greatly. Some Force
     Fins proponents claim that they could not keep up until  they  got
     Force  fins,  and  that  they now they lead.  Opponents claim that
     divers using Force Fins are much slower.

     It  is  likely  that  these difference of opinion are based on the
     individual divers' style and ability, as much as on  the  type  of
     fin.   Force  Fin  users  say  that  a  different kicking style is
     appropriate for Force Fins, and that several dives  are  necessary
     before  this  style  is  mastered.  Others point out that a divers
     ability to use ANY fin will improve as he/she gets used to it.

     POWER  --  Here  we are talking about the ability to get a single,
     maximum-power kick.  An example of this is the need for a diver to
     kick  him/herself up, out of the water to flop onto a dock or dive
     platform when no ladder is available. Most divers will acknowledge
     that conventional fins provide this sort of power-kick better than
     Force Fins.

     NOTE ADDED 12-Apr-1999

     Under  some circumstances some divers like to use a sculling kick,
     which is something like a modified frog  kick.   (It  is  hard  to
     describe  unless  you  see it.)  This kick has the advantage that,
     when properly done, it tends to stir up less silt.  This is useful
     in some cave and wreck diving situations.

     It  has  been  reported, and it is obvious on the face of it, that
     this type of kick is difficult or impossible with Force Fins.

     END OF NOTE ADDED 12-Apr-1999

     CONCLUSIONS
     -----------

     There  are  some  clear advantages and some clear disadvantages to
     Force Fins.  There are also areas of disagreement and inconclusive
     evidence.   It  can  easily  be  observed that both Force Fins and
     conventional fins work.  In fact I have used both.

     It  does appear that Force Fins are certainly suitable for relaxed
     "cruising" in minimal current,  where  speed  and  power  are  not
     priorities.   It  is  under conditions where speed or power may be
     desired or required that the larger size of conventional  fins  is
     generally seen as providing an advantage.

     Each diver should make his or her own choice of fins, based on the
     factors listed above, and on actual, in-water experience.  Try not
     to  be  mislead  by  advertising  "hype"  or  the often overstated
     opinions of those who favor one style or model.

     ------------------------------------------------------------------

     In  May,  1997,  I  received mail advertising from Force Fins.  It
     seems they now offer 10 different styles/models.

     ------------------------------------------------------------------

     On  01-Jun-1997,  David  Taylor  of Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine
     reported  the  following   information   in   rec.scuba.equipment.
     (reformated)

         Our  ScubaLab facility recently reviewed the Force Fin for
         our June equipment ratings.  We found the Force Fin to  be
         one of the top scuba fins on the market today.

         Test   procedures:   RSD's  ScubaLab  has  now  tested  76
         different models of fins  on  890  controlled  test  runs,
         using  more  than  two  dozen  test divers.  On a measured
         course under water in the ocean using full scuba gear,  we
         record  the  test divers' time, pulse rate, breathing rate
         and subjective scores.  Separately, we have also conducted
         hundreds  of other test dives to provide subjective scores
         that evaluate ergonomics, top speed and surface  swimming.
         Our current ranking of scuba fins is:

         Best Overall Scuba Fins

             1. (tie) Mares Plana Avanti Quattro and U.S. Divers Blades
             2. Scubapro Sea Wings
             3. Force Fin
             4. (tie) International Divers Power Fin and
                      Scubapro Lightning Jet Fin
             Runners Up: Beuchat Contact Pro,
                         Cressi-sub Frog,
                         IDI Frog Foot,
                         Mares Plana Avanti,
                         Ocean Edge Spectra

         Our review of the Force Fin (RSD, June '97):

             "The  Force Fin is probably the most controversial fin
             ever made.  Different university studies have come  to
             vastly  different conclusions.  Depending on which you
             choose to  believe,  Force  Fin's  performance  ranges
             anywhere  from  the  best  on the market to the worst.
             Likewise in the field, opinion is  just  as  radically
             divided,  with  some divers singing the praises of the
             Force Fin  in  testimonial  ads  and  others  brutally
             bad-mouthing them as unsafe.

             In  ScubaLab  tests, the Force Fin ties with other top
             fins in  overall  subjective  scores.   This  is  very
             interesting  because  the Force Fin is quite different
             from these other fins, which could  help  account  for
             some  of  the  diversity  of opinion about these fins.
             Force  Fin  caused  higher   pulse   rates   and   air
             consumption  than  the  better-rated  fins.  The Force
             Fin's weakest score was in top speed attained."

     [End of information reported by David Taylor]

     It  is  interesting  that  while Force Fins claims to be the "most
     efficient" fin, RSD reports that they produced "higher pulse rates
     and  air  consumption"  and  that  their "weakest score was in top
     speed attained."

     [The "US Navy Sponsored Study" added 30 October 2000]

     On  their  web  site  (http://www.forcefin.com)  Force Fins offers
     information on a "US Navy Sponsored Study".  This  is  located  at
     http://www.forcefin.com/FF_PAGES/navy.html.    In  reviewing  this
     information, pay particular attention to the chart, "Efficiency of
     Best Fins".

     This  chart  graphs  oxygen consumption (increasing from bottom to
     top on the vertical axis) against velocity (increasing  from  left
     to  right  on  the horizontal axis).  One would expect that oxygen
     consumption would increase with velocity, based on the  assumption
     that  you  have  to  work harder to go faster.  This would produce
     lines on the chart that go generally  from  lower  left  to  upper
     right.  Although this is mostly true on this chart, there are some
     serious exceptions.

     Data for three of the four fins produce lines in which part of the
     line slopes the other way -- from upper left to lower right.  This
     seems  to  say  that  in  some  cases it takes less energy to swim
     faster.  This is, to say the least, counter intuitive and requires
     an explanation.  No explanation is offered.

     [End of the "US Navy Sponsored Study" added 30 October 2000]

     [Note aded 19 Novemer 2001]

     I have been advised in email dated 11-Jul-2001 from Susanne Chess,
     susanne@forcefin.com, www.forcefin.com, that:

         the  air  consumption  dropped  at 50 mpm because at those
         speeds the subject pool was limited to those who  were  in
         the  very best physical condition.  At lower speeds, those
         in not-so-good physical condition  were  included  in  the
         data base.

     If  this  is  so, then the chart as presented is simply bogus, and
     any conclusions drawn from this study are suspect. For the record,
     it  may  be  that  the  blame  for  this  poor, or poorly executed
     experimentally technique, and miss-use of statistics may lie  with
     the  "Navy  researchers".  It may also be that Force Fins is using
     or miss-using the study for purposes  it  was  never  intended  to
     fulfill.

     [End of not added 19 November 2001
           
     [Personal opinion added 14 August 1998]

     It is my personal opinion that fairly large, relatively stiff fins
     such as the Mares Plana Avanti  Quattro  and  U.S.  Divers  Blades
     models are the most efficient fins.  I believe that the reason for
     claiming that smaller, more flexible fins are  more  efficient  is
     that the fins require less effort for a given kick rate.  However,
     they require a greater kick rate to product the same results.

     Efficiency  and  reduced effort is achieved when using large stiff
     fins simply by kicking more slowly.  Even divers who are not  well
     muscled   or   not  in  the  best  shape  can  benefit  from  this
     efficiency. Just s_l_o_w down your kick rate.

     [End of personal opinion added 14 August 1998]

     [Fin straps added 20 October 2000]
           
     Recently, claims made by or on behalf of Force Fins have suggested
     that their fins will stay  on  while  swimming  even  without  fin
     straps.   Well,  maybe,  but I have had a Force Fin _with_ a strap
     come of and nearly get lost.

     Just like the propeller on a boat, any fin may stay in place while
     swimming "normally".  But when you stop or need  to  backup,  some
     method of retention seems to be required.

     [End of fin straps added 20 October 2000]

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

Dag Deberitz - 29 Oct 2004 10:35 GMT
> >Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive
> >fins.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I have tried over a number of years to collect objective data.
> Here it is:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Hammond" <hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com>
Newsgroups: rec.scuba.equipment
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: Foot Cramps

> >Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive
> >fins.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>snip...............................................................

OKI Charlie, - but nevertheless Force Fins Prp helped me get rid of MY foot
cramps. And that's what coounts in my book! And I don't use more air than my
fellow divers diving with me and I'm not swimming slower than them during a
whole dive. But you'r right that long stiff fins are faster if you're in for
a "sprint distance". But some of my buddy's complaint that after a sprint
swim with such feet (long stif ones) they often suffer from foot cramps.
Signature

Best regards
Divepartner Diving School
Dag Deberitz
dagbritzDELETE@online.no
P.B. 25, N-3291 Stavern, NORWAY

DIVE-O-PHONE: +47 922 35777
Visit my albums covering scuba diving, UW-photographing, cats and others:
http://community.webshots.com/user/busdiver_/
            \!/
         (@ @)
----oOO-(_)-OOo------------OOOO0000oooo...._([;]@-[=<

John A - 31 Oct 2004 16:17 GMT
I use different fins for different applications, ill fitting fin will
give cramps.  if the foot pocket is small (not by much) it will give the
cramp you speak of.  I will get cramps on occassion when I dive with my
cressi gars (open heal)  but I can spend 8 hrs in the water with my
sporasub H Dessaults full pocket without a problem.  I dive jets when
tech diving and have had no problems but used to use white stag
hydrostreams (smaller pocket again) and I would cramp.  

I run/swim/bike and properly hydrate.

--
John A
Charlie Hammond - 25 Oct 2004 14:40 GMT
>Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on
>my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit.

Caffeine can cause dehydration, which can be a facotr with
leg cramps.

Signature

     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA
         (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying)
     All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.