Scuba Forum / Scuba Equipment / October 2004
Foot Cramps
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Dan - 19 Oct 2004 15:31 GMT I have been diving for more than 25 years and have been using Scuba Pro Jet Fins for the past 20. Lately, I seem to be getting cramps in my feet. Most diving is tropical. Any suggestions?
Cpt. Dale Bennett - 19 Oct 2004 18:54 GMT > I have been diving for more than 25 years and have been using Scuba > Pro Jet Fins for the past 20. Lately, I seem to be getting cramps in > my feet. Most diving is tropical. Any suggestions? I'm sorry to say that your foot cramps are most likely related to getting older. Lack of exercise may also be a problem. You say that most of your diving is tropical. Do you swim with fins between dive trips? The muscles you primarily use finning are not the ones you use walking. You can use more flexible fins, but you will lose the power of your Jet Fins. Try to do some fin swimming in between trips to keep up your fitness.
 Signature Safe diving,
Dale Bennett Captain Dale's, Inc. Enterprise Marine, Inc., Dive Charters
Dan - 20 Oct 2004 17:53 GMT Thanks for the follow up. I do get a lot of exercise, but not in the water. Biking and Nordic-track weekly. I also swim several times a week in the Florida Aquarium as an underwater janitor, but without fins, just boots. Sounds like that might be the problem. Guess I'll try more flexible fins next to see if that makes a difference. thanks again
Charlie Hammond - 20 Oct 2004 18:07 GMT >Thanks for the follow up. I do get a lot of exercise, but not in the >water. Biking and Nordic-track weekly. I also swim several times a >week in the Florida Aquarium as an underwater janitor, but without >fins, just boots. Sounds like that might be the problem. Guess I'll >try more flexible fins next to see if that makes a difference. thanks >again In the tropics hydration is also important. Drink plenty of water and juice. Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks, as well as alcohol.
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
ajtessier - 22 Oct 2004 00:38 GMT Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit.
>>Thanks for the follow up. I do get a lot of exercise, but not in the >>water. Biking and Nordic-track weekly. I also swim several times a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks, > as well as alcohol. ajtessier - 22 Oct 2004 00:41 GMT excuse my Microsoft spell check "odor"
> Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect > on my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks, >> as well as alcohol. Jer - 22 Oct 2004 03:55 GMT > Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on > my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit. The way I understand it, coffee (among other beverages) contains caffeine, which is a diuretic, which causes your body to shed liquid, which carries away electrolytes, thereby starving the muscles of what they need to convert fuel to energy. I am not a physician, obviously, but I've seen this before, and when diving, I limit myself to one cup of coffee early in the morning. I avoid cramps and the 'odder'.
http://www.betterbodz.com/library/muscle_cramps.html
 Signature jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
chilly - 22 Oct 2004 09:15 GMT > > Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on > > my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://www.betterbodz.com/library/muscle_cramps.html Wouldn't hurt to have a banana every morning for brekkie, either.
Jer - 22 Oct 2004 12:42 GMT >>>Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Wouldn't hurt to have a banana every morning for brekkie, either. Yeah, and mangos, I just gotta have mangos.
 Signature jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
Lee Bell - 22 Oct 2004 14:07 GMT > Yeah, and mangos, I just gotta have mangos. You are welcome to my share. Yuk.
Lee
Dag Deberitz - 22 Oct 2004 09:28 GMT > Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on > my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Consider cutting back on coffee, tea, colas and other cafinated drinks, > > as well as alcohol. Hi Ladies & Gangsters!
Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive fins. Examples hereof are cramps in the calf - & wrist muscles as well as in the foot blades. Before 1991 I was very often a victim of such cramps. Especially if I dove more than once a day. I do not dispute that the above mentioned suggestions of cutting back on coffein/certain bewerages also might help. My fysician-doctor told me that most divefins acts as a prolongation of the foot itself,- causing stress to the muscles mentioned above because our feet isn't shaped to undergo stress of this kind. At the samt time FORCE FINS was introduced in Norway and I was in fact lucky to be one of the first 3 divers in Norway trying them out. As you may have heard,- Force Fins acts as a prolongation of your ancle bones, - not your foot blades,- and won't cause stress to the muscles in questions in the same ways as ordinary flippers. You will even be able to wriggle your toes wearing Force Fins! ;o) You can find an article on this topic that I wrote some years ago on Force Fin's hope page here: http://www.forcefin.com/FF_PAGES/FF_wisewords/testimonials/dag_deberitz.htm. I have no interests in the Force Fin Company whatsoever, but wanted to tell fellow divers with leg- & foot cramps how I got rid of my problem. Good luck and safe diving to you all.
 Signature Best regards Divepartner Diving School Dag Deberitz dagbritzDELETE@online.no P.B. 25, N-3291 Stavern, NORWAY
DIVE-O-PHONE: +47 922 35777 Visit my albums covering scuba diving, UW-photographing, cats and others: http://community.webshots.com/user/busdiver_/ \!/ (@ @) ----oOO-(_)-OOo------------OOOO0000oooo...._([;]@-[=<
Charlie Hammond - 25 Oct 2004 14:58 GMT >Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive >fins. .. {sigh} -- another exagerated "advertisement" for Force Fins (r).
Force Fins have good and bad points. Although I do not like them, I have tried over a number of years to collect objective data. Here it is:
Force Fins (r) vs. "Conventional" Fins
Copyright (c) 1997 by Charles W Hammond, Bedford NH USA Copyright (c) 1998,1999 by Charles W Hammond, Boca Raton FL USA Copyright (c) 2000 by Charles W Hammond, Boca Raton FL USA Copyright (c) 2001 by Charles W Hammond, Boca Raton FL USA
All rights reserved. May be copied for personal use or for non- commercial distribution provided that this copyright notice remains with all copies and that no charge is made for copying or distribution.
DISCLAIMER: SCUBA diving can be dangerous if you are not properly trained. DO NOT attempt to purchase or use ANY SCUBA equipment unless you are a properly certified diver or a diving student. This information reflects my opinion only; it is not sanctioned by any certifying agency. Other opinions will differ.
Force Fins (r) are a style of dive fin that is radically different from "conventional" fins, such as U S Divers BLADES or Mares' PLANA AVANTI QUATTRO models. While conventional fins have developed to have large, long blades that are fairly stiff, Force Fins are relatively small and made from a very flexible material. Their slightly cupped shape provides rigidness on the down (foot moving forward), power stroke and flexes to provide minimal resistance on the up, recovery stroke.
Following are some points of comparison for Force Fins.
SIZE -- Force Fins are much smaller than conventional fins. Packed in a dive bag, two or three pairs of Force Fins should occupy about the same space as a single pair of conventional fins. This is a definite advantage for the traveling diver, especially if traveling to remote areas where baggage may be severely limited.
WALKING ON LAND -- The small size and flexibility of Force Fins makes it very easy to wear them while walking on land or on board boat.
PRICE -- All fin prices vary greatly, but it appears that Force Fins are commonly priced at about twice the price for a good quality pair of conventional fins. Some Force Fins models may sell for much more that that.
Force Fins claims that their price reflects more expensive materials and individual attention during manufacturing.
COMFORT -- Their small size and flexibility makes Force Fins comfortable to wear. Comfort in actual use is more subjective and less clear. Many Force Fins users love their "comfort". Others who have tried them don't like the feel they give in actual use.
Force Fins users often claim that Force Fins eliminate cramps. However, various persons (including myself) report experiencing cramps while diving with Force Fins. It appears that for some users Force Fins will reduce the tendency to cramp; others may find no such reduction.
It is worth considering that it you do get a cramp, the standard pull-up-on-the-tip-of-the-fin technique for stretching out the cramp may be less effective with Force Fins.
NOTE ADDED 07-Oct-1998
In article 203362 of the internet newgroup, rec.scuba, on 01-Oct-1998, Bob Evans, President of Force Fins and Force Fins designer wrote the following about cramping: [reformated]
The main cause of cramping from fins is the relationship of the foot pocket to the blade that forces the foot in an extended toe point on the forward kicking motion, then, to keep a proper orientation of the blade a diver must hold that toe point for the backward kicking motion. This keeps the calf contracted throughout the kicking cycle. Its pretty obvious that you are going to cramp when holding muscles contracted throughout an exercise cycle.
Although we solved this problem over a decade ago, the magazines cannot share this valuable information until it is an industry wide movement in design. That hasn't happened yet, but you will start to see other problems for divers we
Although not explicitly stated, it is clear that the claimed solution is the design of the Force Fins foot pocket and not the fexible nature of Force Fins. END OF NOTE ADDED 07-Oct-1998
SPEED -- Here is an area where opinions differ greatly. Some Force Fins proponents claim that they could not keep up until they got Force fins, and that they now they lead. Opponents claim that divers using Force Fins are much slower.
It is likely that these difference of opinion are based on the individual divers' style and ability, as much as on the type of fin. Force Fin users say that a different kicking style is appropriate for Force Fins, and that several dives are necessary before this style is mastered. Others point out that a divers ability to use ANY fin will improve as he/she gets used to it.
POWER -- Here we are talking about the ability to get a single, maximum-power kick. An example of this is the need for a diver to kick him/herself up, out of the water to flop onto a dock or dive platform when no ladder is available. Most divers will acknowledge that conventional fins provide this sort of power-kick better than Force Fins.
NOTE ADDED 12-Apr-1999
Under some circumstances some divers like to use a sculling kick, which is something like a modified frog kick. (It is hard to describe unless you see it.) This kick has the advantage that, when properly done, it tends to stir up less silt. This is useful in some cave and wreck diving situations.
It has been reported, and it is obvious on the face of it, that this type of kick is difficult or impossible with Force Fins.
END OF NOTE ADDED 12-Apr-1999
CONCLUSIONS -----------
There are some clear advantages and some clear disadvantages to Force Fins. There are also areas of disagreement and inconclusive evidence. It can easily be observed that both Force Fins and conventional fins work. In fact I have used both.
It does appear that Force Fins are certainly suitable for relaxed "cruising" in minimal current, where speed and power are not priorities. It is under conditions where speed or power may be desired or required that the larger size of conventional fins is generally seen as providing an advantage.
Each diver should make his or her own choice of fins, based on the factors listed above, and on actual, in-water experience. Try not to be mislead by advertising "hype" or the often overstated opinions of those who favor one style or model.
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In May, 1997, I received mail advertising from Force Fins. It seems they now offer 10 different styles/models.
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On 01-Jun-1997, David Taylor of Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine reported the following information in rec.scuba.equipment. (reformated)
Our ScubaLab facility recently reviewed the Force Fin for our June equipment ratings. We found the Force Fin to be one of the top scuba fins on the market today.
Test procedures: RSD's ScubaLab has now tested 76 different models of fins on 890 controlled test runs, using more than two dozen test divers. On a measured course under water in the ocean using full scuba gear, we record the test divers' time, pulse rate, breathing rate and subjective scores. Separately, we have also conducted hundreds of other test dives to provide subjective scores that evaluate ergonomics, top speed and surface swimming. Our current ranking of scuba fins is:
Best Overall Scuba Fins
1. (tie) Mares Plana Avanti Quattro and U.S. Divers Blades 2. Scubapro Sea Wings 3. Force Fin 4. (tie) International Divers Power Fin and Scubapro Lightning Jet Fin Runners Up: Beuchat Contact Pro, Cressi-sub Frog, IDI Frog Foot, Mares Plana Avanti, Ocean Edge Spectra
Our review of the Force Fin (RSD, June '97):
"The Force Fin is probably the most controversial fin ever made. Different university studies have come to vastly different conclusions. Depending on which you choose to believe, Force Fin's performance ranges anywhere from the best on the market to the worst. Likewise in the field, opinion is just as radically divided, with some divers singing the praises of the Force Fin in testimonial ads and others brutally bad-mouthing them as unsafe.
In ScubaLab tests, the Force Fin ties with other top fins in overall subjective scores. This is very interesting because the Force Fin is quite different from these other fins, which could help account for some of the diversity of opinion about these fins. Force Fin caused higher pulse rates and air consumption than the better-rated fins. The Force Fin's weakest score was in top speed attained."
[End of information reported by David Taylor]
It is interesting that while Force Fins claims to be the "most efficient" fin, RSD reports that they produced "higher pulse rates and air consumption" and that their "weakest score was in top speed attained."
[The "US Navy Sponsored Study" added 30 October 2000]
On their web site (http://www.forcefin.com) Force Fins offers information on a "US Navy Sponsored Study". This is located at http://www.forcefin.com/FF_PAGES/navy.html. In reviewing this information, pay particular attention to the chart, "Efficiency of Best Fins".
This chart graphs oxygen consumption (increasing from bottom to top on the vertical axis) against velocity (increasing from left to right on the horizontal axis). One would expect that oxygen consumption would increase with velocity, based on the assumption that you have to work harder to go faster. This would produce lines on the chart that go generally from lower left to upper right. Although this is mostly true on this chart, there are some serious exceptions.
Data for three of the four fins produce lines in which part of the line slopes the other way -- from upper left to lower right. This seems to say that in some cases it takes less energy to swim faster. This is, to say the least, counter intuitive and requires an explanation. No explanation is offered.
[End of the "US Navy Sponsored Study" added 30 October 2000]
[Note aded 19 Novemer 2001]
I have been advised in email dated 11-Jul-2001 from Susanne Chess, susanne@forcefin.com, www.forcefin.com, that:
the air consumption dropped at 50 mpm because at those speeds the subject pool was limited to those who were in the very best physical condition. At lower speeds, those in not-so-good physical condition were included in the data base.
If this is so, then the chart as presented is simply bogus, and any conclusions drawn from this study are suspect. For the record, it may be that the blame for this poor, or poorly executed experimentally technique, and miss-use of statistics may lie with the "Navy researchers". It may also be that Force Fins is using or miss-using the study for purposes it was never intended to fulfill.
[End of not added 19 November 2001 [Personal opinion added 14 August 1998]
It is my personal opinion that fairly large, relatively stiff fins such as the Mares Plana Avanti Quattro and U.S. Divers Blades models are the most efficient fins. I believe that the reason for claiming that smaller, more flexible fins are more efficient is that the fins require less effort for a given kick rate. However, they require a greater kick rate to product the same results.
Efficiency and reduced effort is achieved when using large stiff fins simply by kicking more slowly. Even divers who are not well muscled or not in the best shape can benefit from this efficiency. Just s_l_o_w down your kick rate.
[End of personal opinion added 14 August 1998]
[Fin straps added 20 October 2000] Recently, claims made by or on behalf of Force Fins have suggested that their fins will stay on while swimming even without fin straps. Well, maybe, but I have had a Force Fin _with_ a strap come of and nearly get lost.
Just like the propeller on a boat, any fin may stay in place while swimming "normally". But when you stop or need to backup, some method of retention seems to be required.
[End of fin straps added 20 October 2000]
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
Dag Deberitz - 29 Oct 2004 10:35 GMT > >Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive > >fins. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have tried over a number of years to collect objective data. > Here it is: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Hammond" <hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com> Newsgroups: rec.scuba.equipment Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 3:58 PM Subject: Re: Foot Cramps
> >Leg- & foot cramps can also very well be caused by your "flippers"/dive > >fins. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >snip............................................................... OKI Charlie, - but nevertheless Force Fins Prp helped me get rid of MY foot cramps. And that's what coounts in my book! And I don't use more air than my fellow divers diving with me and I'm not swimming slower than them during a whole dive. But you'r right that long stiff fins are faster if you're in for a "sprint distance". But some of my buddy's complaint that after a sprint swim with such feet (long stif ones) they often suffer from foot cramps.
 Signature Best regards Divepartner Diving School Dag Deberitz dagbritzDELETE@online.no P.B. 25, N-3291 Stavern, NORWAY
DIVE-O-PHONE: +47 922 35777 Visit my albums covering scuba diving, UW-photographing, cats and others: http://community.webshots.com/user/busdiver_/ \!/ (@ @) ----oOO-(_)-OOo------------OOOO0000oooo...._([;]@-[=<
John A - 31 Oct 2004 16:17 GMT I use different fins for different applications, ill fitting fin will give cramps. if the foot pocket is small (not by much) it will give the cramp you speak of. I will get cramps on occassion when I dive with my cressi gars (open heal) but I can spend 8 hrs in the water with my sporasub H Dessaults full pocket without a problem. I dive jets when tech diving and have had no problems but used to use white stag hydrostreams (smaller pocket again) and I would cramp.
I run/swim/bike and properly hydrate.
-- John A
Charlie Hammond - 25 Oct 2004 14:40 GMT >Does caffeine really cause leg cramps? I thought the only adverse effect on >my diving caused by my three cups of coffee was the odder from my wetsuit. Caffeine can cause dehydration, which can be a facotr with leg cramps.
 Signature Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Ft Lauderdale FL USA (hammond@not@peek.ssr.hp.com -- remove "@not" when replying) All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.
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