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Scuba Forum / Australian Scuba / November 2008

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Vertigo while diving in the BLUE or when no visual reference

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Mario - 27 Oct 2008 13:36 GMT
Hello,

my gf is just beginning to dive, she has made  20 dives so far at
maximun depth of 18 meters.

ALWAYS that we dive in the total BLUE or in abscence of fixed
references she suffers VERTIGO, I will try to better specify the
conditions under which she suffers vertigos:

going down or up through the reference line, if the bottom if not
visible
if she dives a wall, watching the wall she doesnt suffer vertigo but
if she looks at the bottom or outside the wall towards the BLUE then
she starts suffering vertigo

it helps reducing her vertigos if she looks at her dive buddy closely,
or if she looks at pressure gauge

It seams to me that these cases of vertigo are not so common among
divers, is the first time I see someone that suffers it, is it true
that some divers suffer vertigo at the beginning ot their diving
experience and then with time diving they will disapear?

Which could be the cause of these vertigos? some specific medical exam
recommended?

Some of you have experiences this kind of vertigo? I will appreciate
exchanging comments with people that has experiences this kind of
vertigo and fortunatelly has solved it.

My gf doesnt suffer vertigo from altitude, so I guess this vertigo is
not related at all with altitude? or maybe underwater pressure has to
do with it.

Thank you all for your comments that may help.

Mario
Lee Bell - 27 Oct 2008 15:50 GMT
> ALWAYS that we dive in the total BLUE or in abscence of fixed
> references she suffers VERTIGO.

It's a fairly common problem. When diving in blue water, you have no visual
references. Combined with the greatly reduced effect of gravity, this can
result in mild to severe disorientation. Most divers that experience this
get over it in time. Those that don't, fine someplace else to dive, or give
up the sport entirely.

As you noted, focusing on something that gives you a visual reference can
help.  A dive buddy is a good focus at least partly because a dive buddy has
a defined up and down, even if they are not pointed head and down. Bubbles
rising from a buddy are an even better indicator of where up and down are.
An ascent line is not as good. It provides no particularly indication of up
or down.

Here's something else to watch out for, potentially something a lot more
serious. Those that have become disoriented, often transition into the form
of narcosis we call a "Dark Narc" when they descend to a point where the
concentration of Nitrogen in the body is significant. Taking a dark narc hit
tends to induce panic, which when deep under the water, tissues loaded with
nitrogen, can be a very dangerous thing.

Lee
Ian Blakeley - 27 Oct 2008 17:54 GMT
>my gf is just beginning to dive, she has made  20 dives so far at
>maximun depth of 18 meters.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>if she looks at the bottom or outside the wall towards the BLUE then
>she starts suffering vertigo

I get this occasionally but under different conditions generally, with
me it's ascending usually in cold water. If do suffer then it seems to
be worse when wearing a hood and diving dry. I've had the full on room
spin a couple of times, like being really pissed and my DSMB line
appearing to me to be at an angle.

>it helps reducing her vertigos if she looks at her dive buddy closely,
>or if she looks at pressure gauge

This is I think because her ears are telling her one thing and her
eyes another by focusing on a nearby object she can override the
signals her brain is receiving.

>that some divers suffer vertigo at the beginning ot their diving
>experience and then with time diving they will disapear?

I had no issues until around 100 dives.

>Which could be the cause of these vertigos? some specific medical exam
>recommended?

Maybe slight pressure difference in the ears, it doesn't need to be
much to send some confusing signals to the brain. Is she
ascending/descending at these times? If so try going a little way
back, take some care equalising.

>Some of you have experiences this kind of vertigo? I will appreciate
>exchanging comments with people that has experiences this kind of
>vertigo and fortunatelly has solved it.

A quick google turned this up
URL:http://www.londondivingchamber.co.uk/index.php?id=advice&page=6&cat=12&sub_cat=84
which suggests a couple of possible causes.

HTH

Signature

Ian
"Bother!" said Pooh as he twitted his moderator

Joerg Hahn - 28 Oct 2008 13:11 GMT
Hello,

> I get this occasionally but under different conditions generally, with
> me it's ascending usually in cold water. If do suffer then it seems to
> be worse when wearing a hood and diving dry.

This may be. I had it freediving 15m in to much cold water
without a hood.

Cold temps and/or a tight fitting hood may induce vertigo.

Joerg

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Greg Mossman - 28 Oct 2008 17:34 GMT
> >ALWAYS that we dive in the total BLUE or in abscence of fixed
> >references she suffers VERTIGO, I will try to better specify the
> >conditions under which she suffers vertigos:

> I get this occasionally but under different conditions generally, with
> me it's ascending usually in cold water. If do suffer then it seems to
> be worse when wearing a hood and diving dry. I've had the full on room
> spin a couple of times, like being really pissed and my DSMB line
> appearing to me to be at an angle.

> This is I think because her ears are telling her one thing and her
> eyes another by focusing on a nearby object she can override the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I had no issues until around 100 dives.

> >Which could be the cause of these vertigos? some specific medical exam
> >recommended?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ascending/descending at these times? If so try going a little way
> back, take some care equalising.

That is the likely cause of your vertigo, alternobaric vertigo.  I
occasionally get a bad hit of this.  Of course it doesn't matter
whether you're in the blue or on the wall.  My most recent case was
"ascending" from an 8-foot-deep dive in Palau's Mandarinfish Lake.
That ascent was so bad, I spent the next fifteen minutes vomiting, my
head spinning in the dark night as I tried to find the way back to the
channel where our boat was parked.

Alternobaric vertigo sucks worse when you're out in the blue with no
line, but it can happen any time your ears are submerged for a while.
My worst experience with it was out in the blue, ascending from
Alcione off Cocos Island.  No line, no reef, no other divers, just me
and my bubbles trying for as slow ascent as possible while my head was
spinning.  Closing my eyes made it worse.  Vomiting was so bad upon
surfacing that I ended up hyperventilating bad enough to cause
symptoms similar to DCS (hand muscle constriction, slurring of speech,
tingling), scaring me and the rest of the boat enough to put me on O2
and stay out of the water for the rest of the day until we confirmed I
wasn't bent.  It's much easier to control when you have a reference,
or better yet a line to hold onto.  Then you can try going a bit
deeper and re-equalizing to see if the condition improves, inching
back up slowly enough to keep it under control.

As far as I know, experience doesn't make a difference.  My first bout
was on my first post-certification dive off San Clemente Island in
Southern California, at night, when I had separated from the group
because I was low on air and needed to ascend.  It was especially
scary being my first time, not knowing what was happening, vomiting on
the long dark lonely swim back to the boat and for another half-hour
after I was back on board.  My last bout was well over five hundred
dives and almost nine years later, ending my 8-foot dive with the same
dark lonely swim back to the boat.  The only difference is that I
wasn't scared, merely annoyed, and I didn't make my condition known to
the rest of the group because I didn't want to scare anyone else.

On the other hand, it sounds like the original poster's girlfriend's
condition is more psychological than physiological in nature.  Some
people get vertigo when exposed to wide open spaces, sort of an
agoraphobia.  It's probably difficult to simulate on land, so she
didn't know she had it until she tried her first blue-water dives.
Skydiving would probably evoke the same response, so I don't recommend
her taking up that hobby, and she'll never make a good astronaut.
That said, it certainly may be something she could learn to overcome
with time, taking baby steps along the way.  Definitely avoid diving
in blue water without a line until she gets it under control as it can
be very difficult getting one's bearings with no reference but
spinning bubbles and your head is spinning too much to focus on your
gauges.  While the physiological vertigo does not go away when you
close your eyes, her vertigo might.  If you do happen to be making a
blue water ascent, you could hold her and control the ascent for her
while she keeps her eyes closed.  Of course if you happen to get
separated, that won't work, so it's probably not the best idea to plan
for such a dive.

There's probably not much a doc can do for her condition.  There's not
much a doc can do for my condition.  You live with it or you don't
dive.  In her case, hypnosis or some sort of guided imagery with a
psychologist could possibly help, but it may be easier to work it out
on her own or avoid those types of dives where a blue-water ascent is
necessary.  And yes, it's possible the condition might just go away
with time and experience.  I wish mine would.  Post-dive nausea and
vomiting can take a lot of the fun out of an otherwise great dive.
Nicolai Hanssing - 31 Oct 2008 18:04 GMT
Hey reading from overhere in denmark,

> I get this occasionally but under different conditions generally,
> with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> spin a couple of times, like being really pissed and my DSMB line
> appearing to me to be at an angle.

Yup me too. That is to say, I thought it was narcosis previously, but
now on my CCR can have extended stays at say 40m without any vertigo,
but sometimes during ascent at shallower depths I can get extreme
vertigo for a short while. I've bailed out on my CCR from this a
couple of times to be on the safe side.

I now find that the narcosis is not the issue but something with the
middle-ears when ascending. Not pleasant, but now way more manegable
as I know whats happening, and that it will pass.

Nicolai
Ian Blakeley - 02 Nov 2008 15:24 GMT
>Hey reading from overhere in denmark,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>vertigo for a short while. I've bailed out on my CCR from this a
>couple of times to be on the safe side.

I binned a relatively shallow dive following an event.

>I now find that the narcosis is not the issue but something with the
>middle-ears when ascending. Not pleasant, but now way more manegable
>as I know whats happening, and that it will pass.

That's my take, now I know what it is I can mitigate the problems by
focusing on something like my computer. Of course it's a bugger if
it's the time when I am trying to do something else I need to do such
as deploy a blob or gas switch.

Signature

Ian
"Bother!" said Pooh as he tried to install OS/2. (For the tenth time.)

Richard - 28 Oct 2008 13:18 GMT
> My gf doesnt suffer vertigo from altitude, so I guess this vertigo is
> not related at all with altitude? or maybe underwater pressure has to
> do with it.

I cant help much with this except to say that I do suffer from
altitude vertigo and have no problems diving, so I would say there is
no relationship between the two.
Tom P - 31 Oct 2008 15:17 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Mario

As a beginner, she should choose a dive site with visual references.
someone - 03 Nov 2008 22:21 GMT
>> Hello,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> As a beginner, she should choose a dive site with visual references.

I couldn't agree more. The only time I got vertigo was in Stoney Cove, U.K.,
it was a drysuit dive, and very cold.  To start with, my air line blew off
about 10 metres down and I was losing all my air so I had to ascend and fix
it.  but when I re-descended, I found the environment cold, dark, and
turbid.  Even though I had a buddy, I could see nothing around me and I
began to feel weird, having no orientation at all.  Then I saw a fish about
a foot long swimming past me, and I was OK from then on. However I really
didn't enjoy that dive.

If I can see a fish or something alive swimming past, I just feel so much
better. Stick with things you can see, it helps to orientate you.

Or, better still, stick to warm, sunny countries such as Belize where you
can see down to about 50 metres, it's so sunny.

I don't think your girlfriend is at all unusual, I think she's probably
pretty normal.

someone
george - 03 Nov 2008 23:08 GMT
Vertigo underwater ?

Hint.
Bubbles go up.
Grumman-581 - 04 Nov 2008 03:05 GMT
george <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote in news:e60fadc5-2f5a-4d4c-a7b6-
595d245c04fd@v22g2000pro.googlegroups.com:

> Bubbles go up.

Maybe you just didn't know here as well as some of us did... Bubbles
definitely went down... <dirty-old-man-grin>

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george - 04 Nov 2008 04:08 GMT
On Nov 4, 4:05 pm, "Grumman-581" <grumman581+usenet-2...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> george <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote in news:e60fadc5-2f5a-4d4c-a7b6-
> 595d245c0...@v22g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Maybe you just didn't know here as well as some of us did... Bubbles
> definitely went down... <dirty-old-man-grin>

The theme was vertigo not a blow by blow account :-)
Hansjoerg Waibel - 02 Nov 2008 00:34 GMT
Hi Mario

Mario schrieb:
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> references she suffers VERTIGO, I will try to better specify the
> conditions under which she suffers vertigos:

could it be, that she actually suffers from fear of falling?

Quite a lot of beginners suffer from that reaction. Humans are upright
type of beings, as soon as the head tilts forward enough to trip over
all kind of reactions kick in.
While there is something to look at we tend to ignore a lot of things.
But out in the blue there is nothing to distract us, so we tend to react
more to feelings like that.

Does she tend to reach forward with her arms? Does she often uses her
arms to seemingly stabilize her position in the water? This could be
indicative for fear of falling over.

It sounds a bit like psycho talk, but we all have to learn to trust the
water and our gear. As long as this is not the case a lot of funny
reactions can happen.

jm2c, hth
Hansjoerg
 
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